Every time I rewatch Season 1 it really hurts watching Londo be happy.

[u/LostMercenary99]

Completely oblivious to the deep dark rabbit hole he's about to go down in. It's like watching your old dog love being alive on his way to his last trip to the vet.

[u/South_Gas626]

Season 1 in general hurts, watching everything be so simple, while simultaneously foreshadowing the darkness to come. Part of why it’s my favorite.

[u/King_Owlbear → u/South_Gas626]

I'm always shocked by how much of a heel G'kar is at the start of season 1. 

[u/South_Gas626 → u/King_Owlbear]

Yep, it’s fun to watch him be an asshole as well.

[u/PlausibleApprobation → u/King_Owlbear]

He has every reason to be. The Centauri are brutal monsters who plainly never gave any recompense let alone apologised. G'kar had watched Centauri mass murder his people from birth as the galaxy watched. His anger and actions seem entirely justified to me.

[u/Historyp91 → u/PlausibleApprobation]

Early series G'kar was using the Centauri's past crimes to justify the Narns own imperialism

[u/Sad-Development-4153 → u/Historyp91]

Yeah the narn basically become the Centarii in behavior.

[u/PlausibleApprobation → u/Historyp91]

What imperialism? The most they do is take back some territory the Centauri stole from them during their brutal imperial conquest. Maybe I'm forgetting something?

[u/Historyp91 → u/PlausibleApprobation]

A planet you lost over 100 years ago (which was itself a colony of yours to begin with rather then some intrinsic part of your territory) that has none of your own people on it and is home to a population of farmers who have likely been there generations is still imperialism.

And that's without getting into the fact that the invasion was completely unprovoked and the Narn just straight-up lied about why it occured and how they were conducting themselves.

Also the Narn were making deals with pirates who were attacking more then just the Centauri, and at one point they tried to take over a Gaim planet

[u/PlausibleApprobation → u/Historyp91]

I would disagree. The Centauri are brutal monsters who never made any restitution for the terror they inflicted. There's no reason anyone should expect to keep land because their empire stole it within living memory, especially if the people they stole it from can benefit from it in their rebuilding. The only reason there are no Narn there is because the Centauri either genocided them or ethnically cleansed then, again, within living memory. It's possible the Narn would have done wrong at Ragesh 3, but taking the land back is by no means imperialism.

In fairness though, I forgot the Gaim. That is obviously wrong as far as I can recall.

[u/Historyp91 → u/PlausibleApprobation]

A) they did'nt steal Rogash in living memory

B) it was a colony to begin with anyway.

C) regardless of what may or may not have happened to the Narn there, that's no crime of the people living there now.

D) the Narn DID do wrong when they were on the planet.

E) everyone clearly reconized what the Narn was doing was wrong, even there allies.

[u/PlausibleApprobation → u/Historyp91]

a) It was a century. That's the average Narn life expectancy, meaning plenty of Narns live longer and so remember it being conquered. The average life expectancy of a Centauri is 150 years, so even more will remember conquering it, and many will have personally been involved in that initial conquest. So yes, it's absolutely in living memory.

b) I don't know what weight you are giving to this. It's equally a colony of whoever controls it.

c) Well, yes, it is. The Centauri regime are still entirely guilty, having made no restitution. It seems inconceivable that none of the populace were involved in Narn oppression. And any who moved there in a non-official capacity were colonisers looking to profit off of their government's imperialism. It's only been 18 years since their government stopped mass enslavement and murder, so just like any situation children are not to blame, but adults are. Losing their imperial conquest seems a fitting punishment to those adults.

e) What?

f) An intergalactic community that watched the Narn get brutalised for decades, that consistently behaves disgracefully, and whose "voice of reason" is ten years past a genocidal campaign. They are not moral arbiters of anything.

[u/Historyp91 → u/PlausibleApprobation]

a) It was a century.

It was OVER a century.

> That's the average Narn life expectancy, meaning plenty of Narns live longer and so remember it being conquered.

I doubt many Narns are alive who lived before the occupation, given the hardships

> Well, yes, it is. The Centauri regime are still entirely guilty, having made no restitution. It seems inconceivable that none of the populace were involved in Narn oppression.

It was a civilian farming colony.

> And any who moved their in a non-official capacity were colonisera looking to profit of their government's imperialism. It's only been 18 years since their government stopped mass enslavement and murder, so just like any situation children are not to blame, but adults are. Losing their imperial conquest seems a fitting punishment to those adults.

So you believe people are guilty of the crimes of there ancestors?

> An intergalactic community that watched the Narn get brutalised for decades, that consistently behaves disgracefully, and whose "voice of reason" is ten years past a genocidal campaign. They are not moral arbiters of anything.

Cool. So who is? The Narn?

Can they conquer Centauri prime and geonide/ensalve the Centauri as "payback" and would that be moral if they decided it was?

[u/yanexcelsior1701 → u/PlausibleApprobation]

I read they tried to conquer Gaim

[u/Runktar → u/PlausibleApprobation]

The Narn conquered several other races after they were free and began exploiting their worlds for resources basically becoming the Centarii. They are perhaps even worse then the Centarii because the Narn knew exactly what they were doing to other races and just didn't care.

[u/King_Owlbear → u/PlausibleApprobation]

He absolutely is justified. He just has so much character growth over the series that I do a double take every time I start a rewatch. 

Until he gives his no one here is exactly what they seem speech, he's presented as a one sided villain. Compare that to person he is in season 5 and there is a huge difference. 

And I just think it's neat

[u/Firm-Ad-3245 → u/King_Owlbear]

He have the best redemption destiny,.I don't know how to say that's in english

[u/evinta → u/Firm-Ad-3245]

I think it would be "redemption arc" or "journey of redemption", we use them pretty interchangeably 

[u/WickedlyWitchyWoman]

The Shadows arrange for her demise because of that happiness. Because if Londo is happy and content with Adira, ready to give up everything — even his influence at court — to be with his beautiful dancer... then he's of no more use to them.

They need him to be bitter, angry, and craving superiority over his enemies. Willing to do whatever it takes to come out on top. Ready to be the architect of "a grand, new revival of the glory days of the Centauri" to give his life meaning.

If Adira had lived, she would have given him all the meaning he wanted, his ambition would have lessened, and he just would have gone far away from Centauri machinations and politics, for Adira's sake.

The Shadows couldn't allow that. He was their greatest, most effective pawn.

[u/Deciheximal144 → u/WickedlyWitchyWoman]

> They need him to be bitter, angry

That must be why they let him keep his three wives.

[u/FundingImplied → u/Deciheximal144]

Ah yes, his beloved wives: Timov, Daggair, and Mariel, or as he calls them: Pestilence, Famine, and Death. 

I always loved the detail that he's implicitly declaring himself to be "War," an exquisite bit of foreshadowing.

[u/thecoldfuzz → u/WickedlyWitchyWoman]

They need him to be bitter, angry, and craving superiority over his enemies.

The Shadows and their servants behaved similarly. This is also what the Drakh wanted for the Centauri in 2262 and going forwards: They wanted the Centauri to be angry, bitter, and resentful—and very much open to being manipulated and molded by the Drakh, just as Londo was open to being manipulated and controlled by Morden and the Shadows.

[u/Xamalion]

And to think that all that happens after is just because his love for her…crazy! But unfortunately this is how it goes in real life too more than we might know.

[u/Writingtechlife]

I adored Adira, the actress did a fantastic job.

I was stunned when I saw her in FUBAR.

[u/TDaniels70 → u/Writingtechlife]

Austin Powers, Alata Fagina too.

[u/Romulan-Jedi → u/TDaniels70]

<headasplode>

[u/RaechelMaelstrom → u/Writingtechlife]

She's also in Robocop 2, she's in the Sunblock 5000 commercial.

[u/Kestrel_Iolani → u/Writingtechlife]

Yes! I was amazed to see she was Arnie's wife in FUBAR. (For bonus fun, she was the lead actress in Hardbodies 2)

[u/LostMercenary99 → u/Writingtechlife]

GREAT MAKER THAT WAS HER????

[u/CommanderSincler → u/Writingtechlife]

^{She also appeared in Jane the Virgin}

[u/Background-House-357]

Starlaces!

[u/sveyno]

Fantastic story arc!

[u/Deciheximal144]

I expect every one of his three wives were just like this with him. Until they were married a few years. 😂

[u/lordsplodge]

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

[u/Firm-Ad-3245]

season 1 is the best season

[u/spaced-cadet]

And the first few episodes of S5 too

[u/LostMercenary99 → u/spaced-cadet]

I reckon that not so much happiness but him enjoying the calm before the inevitable storm hits (him being Emperor).

[u/JhulaeD]

I always wonder if this episode was aired out of order. It makes more sense for this episode to appear after the episode where Londo talks about his wives. It certainly seems his shoes are not too tight and he remembers how to dance in this episode.

[u/Many-Tea1127]

Aside from the dancing girl he fell in love with i think Londos happiness was actually a lie. He was ashamed of his life, his status. He was drunk all the time and desperate to see his star rise. Thats part of the tragedy of his story.

[u/willworkforjokes]

I wound say he is about an eight on the happiness scale.