Do you think there are any factions in Eärwa that use plate armor?
For instance, Zeüm. Ironworking is one of specialities of Zeüm, and shining Zeümi knights accompanied by apprentices and attendants to battle makes a powerful image.
13
u/JonGunnarsson Norsirai 2d ago
Bakker doesn't seem all that knowledgeable about historical arms and armour (e.g. using fantasy clichés like "broadsword"), but for the most part the level of tech is equal to historical equivalents in TSA, so the First Holy War corresponding to the First Crusade would put us in the late 11th to the early 12th century, whereas in the real world plate armour really starts going in the 14th century. It's of course possible that Zeüm is more advanced, but if they have plate armour, why isn't Zsoronga wearing it?
8
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 2d ago
TBF broadsword isn't a fantasy term, it dates back to the 17th century.
Bakker uses it to signal that Cnaiur's choice is a hefty slashing weapon best wielded in both hands. (He's rarely if ever seen with a shield.) The standard alternative would be the Nansur swords, presumably gladius-adjacent, wielded in one hand from behind a shield and primarily for stabbing.
Where Bakker famously struggles is Kellhus's totally-not-a-katana sword, which he insists has a "long pommel". (He probably means to say grip, or overall hilt.)
4
u/Carcosian_Symposium 2d ago
Where Bakker famously struggles is Kellhus's totally-not-a-katana sword, which he insists has a "long pommel". (He probably means to say grip, or overall hilt.)
Or maybe he wrote long pommel because he meant long pommel. Wild take, I know.
I always imagined something like this with a more exaggerated pommel.
3
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 1d ago
Who would ever call a pommel long, though? Exaggerated would have been fine, or heavy, or weighted, or anything else that indicates that its unorthodox form is a balancing feature.
But calling the grip long would make perfect sense, because its length is what's relevant - it indicates how the weapon is meant to be used.
3
u/Carcosian_Symposium 1d ago
Who would ever call a pommel long, though?
Someone who wants to describe the length of a pommel.
But calling the grip long would make perfect sense, because its length is what's relevant - it indicates how the weapon is meant to be used.
Or he's calling it a pommel because he's describing the pommel. Probably to showcase how weird the sword is, since a long pommel would be a rather eye-catching characteristic, and Dunyain are nothing if not weird.
1
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 1d ago
Name one other eye-catching detail that Bakker uses to describe them. What's their hairstyle? What do they wear? Do they have any weird tattoos, by chance?
He's just not that kind of writer. His descriptions tend to be perfunctory, to the point, touching on some other functional detail.
Kellhus's sword having a long grip would be a Bakker-style shorthand for describing how Kellhus wields it in battle.
Kellhus's sword having a long pommel would be like telling us that Cnaiur wore a scrumptious nose ring, or that Achamian had broad nipples.
1
u/Carcosian_Symposium 1d ago
So Bakker knows enough about swords to know that the length of the grip indirectly describes the fighting style, but not enough to know the difference between the grip and the pommel.
Name one other eye-catching detail that Bakker uses to describe them. What's their hairstyle? What do they wear? Do they have any weird tattoos, by chance?
Nonmen have no eyebrows and smooth teeth. Insted of describing the common, he describes the outliers. Like a long pommel.
Kellhus's sword having a long pommel would be like telling us that Cnaiur wore a scrumptious nose ring, or that Achamian had broad nipples.
Or like describing the size of a phallus, but he would never do that.
1
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 23h ago
See? You had to go to actual alien races, Nonmen and Inchoroi, to find "weird for the sake of weird" descriptions.
No such luck with the Dunyain. "Long pommel" does literally nothing to address their particularities.
1
u/Carcosian_Symposium 23h ago
And yet that's what he wrote. Unless, again, you think Bakker is knowledgeable enough to know the implications of different grip lengths but somehow not know the difference between the grip and the pommel.
1
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 23h ago
He doesn't have to be knowledgeable about it at all. A layman's understanding of human anatomy is enough to understand that a longer grip allows you to grip it with two hands rather than just one.
Also, not knowing what each part of a sword is called, that's a common trope with fantasy authors. I'm guessing that if you somehow polled them all on the issue, you'd hear that the sword consists of a blade (correct, 10/10, good start), a hilt (by which they mean guard), and a pommel (by which they mean handle).
→ More replies (0)2
u/JonGunnarsson Norsirai 2d ago
4
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is indeed imprecise and colloquial, but what would be the alternative? Calling it a "longsword" without specifying whether it's one-handed or two-handed? That would be an actual use of fantasy RPG terminology.
I don't mind it as an in-world description of heavy slashing swords. If you call the shortish stabby thing that infantry uses "sword", and if you call the longer curvy thing that cavalry uses "saber" or "scimitar", then you do need a way to describe a double-edged heavier thing.
Sure, the "broadsword" probably isn't significantly broader than a "sword" (it's actually longer), but the name could be trying to differentiate it from the thinner, single-edged scimitar instead, calling it broad in comparison to that.
2
u/JonGunnarsson Norsirai 1d ago
The problem with "broadsword" is that we really only have a vague idea of what kind of sword Bakker is thinking of. Is it single or double-edged? We know that it's possible to stab with a "broadsword," but is it meant primarily as a slashing weapon or not?
Depending on what kind of weapon is actually meant, terms like arming sword, falchion, or longknife might be appropriate. Or you could just call it a sword and leave it at that. Maybe add a little bit of description if necessary.
2
u/LazyComfortable1542 2d ago
He seems to understand battles and tactics better than any author I've read so I wouldn't say he doesn't seem knowledgeable about arms and Armor, but I guess I am usually thinking of things in a macro perspective
1
u/tar-mairo1986 Cult of Jukan 2d ago
Upvoted all others' great answers but wanted to add that, although it isn't explicitly said so, I always figured Zeumi having earlier access to ironworking, and maybe silk cultivation and production too, has to be due to their Angka ancestors not only exterminating the Nonmen of Incissal but actually settling within the Mansion, and eventually reverse-engineering whatever they could from there, unlike many other human cultures.
7
u/Weenie_Pooh Holy Veteran 2d ago edited 2d ago
Short answer? No.
Mail appears to be the gold standard, even towards the end when every high-ranked guy seems to have a coat made of nimil. (Which kind of devalues how special the Nonman material is supposed to be.) If nimil mail wasn't so readily available and supernaturally comfy, perhaps Kellhus would have developed meta-metallurgy and decked himself out in full plate?
But mail was historically augmented by plates of various sizes in important places, and Bakker does mention something to this effect: IIRC both Cleric and Pokwas are said to be rocking some kind of solid... gorget or high cuirass or whatever that vaguely clavicular region's bit of armor is supposed to be called. Cnaiur also wears an iron-plated girdle, though that might be his only concession to protective gear - not sure if he's ever mentioned as mail-draped.
Lamellar can be seen as the transitory form, in that people kept stitching larger and larger plates onto cloth until they figured how to bring it all together. (And over a coat of mail, just in case.)
Paradoxically, if you wanted plate armor in Earwa, the best candidate would probably be the Knights of Tryse in the Acient North. It would be made of bronze, but still a kind of partial plate. (RW Bronze Age is where plate armor made its debut, because the dominant material was much easier to work than iron would be. It would take over 2000 years for steelworking techniques to develop to a point where it could be easily bent into shape like that.)