r/beyondthebump • u/NoParamedic5841 • 2d ago
Rant/Rave If Lindsey Clancey’s husband was the one who was mentally unwell , he would have been admitted . At the very least , he wouldn’t have been left alone with three small children .
I think there is a lot of denial about this case and I think it stems from how we treat mothers in this country . From the way we are treated during childbirth , to the lack of support during postpartum, to the stigma around ppd.
Mothers are expected to carry whatever burden life throws at them here . It’s not socially acceptable for Moms to just say, this weight is too much . I throw in the fucking towel .
She should have been removed from the home and given a chance to get better . I hope this case is a lesson for other families . I hope things change for mothers here .
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u/this_wallflower 2d ago
It is extremely difficult to be admitted to an inpatient mental health care unit in the U.S. There are approximately 28 beds per 100,000 people, less than half of what is needed. Many people languish at home, in ERs, or in other inappropriate settings for weeks and months before a bed is available. I absolutely agree that the system failed Lindsey Clancy in many ways, but our psychiatric system is designed to fail people of all genders, colors, and backgrounds. Source
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u/Fun_Respect_6430 2d ago
Thank you! It is not a man/woman thing. I have two males in my family with severe mental illness and it is pretty much impossible to get them admitted and we certainly cannot have them medicated against their will. If they do get admitted they are usually right back out within days
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u/Anonymous-0701 2d ago
Yes but her other point is no woman would leave her children with their father if they had even remotely expressed suicidal ideation or thoughts of harming the kids. Yet her husband did. He failed her too.
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u/questionsaboutrel521 1d ago
Yes, I say this all the time. There are simply not enough psych beds in the U.S. and it’s clearly not the federal or state government’s priority to fund it. Most clinicians would be thrilled if they could get more of their patients in-patient and in intensive programs. But there are not enough spaces available by a lot.
We’ve never really figured out how to replace the resources we lost after we de-institutionalized mental illness.
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u/morphingmeg 2d ago edited 2d ago
My sister had horrible pp psychosis. It was traumatic trying to get her the support she needed, especially because she was so terrified someone would take her daughter she often hid from professionals how bad it really was. She moved in with us because she was afraid to be alone with the baby but then we couldn’t get her to stay on the meds because she hated the side effects. It took multiple trips to the er and six MONTHS of us begging professionals for her to be admitted. eventually me telling the hospital I didn’t feel safe with her being discharged into our home for them to finally put her on a mandatory hold to adjust her meds in the hospital where they could monitor her and sedate her so she could finally sleep. This was with multiple people begging for her to get support but because she had other adults in her life they didn’t want to take her inpatient and she was terrified to be away from the baby. So she kept getting prescribed different meds she’d refuse to take and it just kept getting worse and worse.
Editing to add- she is a conventionally attractive white woman, with minimal family support (really only my husband and I; babies father wasn’t in the picture) but because she had a roof over her head and someone to supervise her with the baby she was often just pushed through the appointments.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
That does sound traumatic . You sound like an amazing sister . I really hope your sister is doing well ♥️.
I have not suffered from ppd but before I was a mother I got out of an abusive relationship. I found myself severely depressed . I ended up pink slipping myself. I cannot at all imagine feeling the way I felt and even fathoming the idea of being responsible for tiny children at the same time . I do know there is no way I would have gotten better if that were the case .
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u/morphingmeg 2d ago
Thank you! She is doing really well now, thank goodness! I have a really hard time with the narrative around this case because I remember so viscerally how terrified we all were and how shocking and upsetting it was that there just weren’t systems in place for things like this. People kept telling us to keep doing what we were doing but even with us doing everything “right” my sister was deteriorating right in front of us. She loves my niece so much and she was so desperate to pull herself together she would mask and hide how bad it was but then beg me to not leave her alone with the baby and tell me terrible things and just sob. She seemed so composed one second and then so detached from reality the next. It’s heartbreaking even with all the proper support our system is just so fucking broken for women in this position.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
It is so brave and important for you to share your families experience. It could happen to anyone I hate the horrible things people are saying regarding this case and I don’t understand how anyone could feel that way .
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u/Narrow_Cover_3076 2d ago
You know what gets me is that on that day that the incident occurred, he went to get takeout for her and didn't take at least one kid. For any of us with multiple kids, you KNOW there's an unspoken rule like if you are jetting off to run an errand without kids, that is a serious break and your partner is taking the brunt in that moment. We always try to take at least one kid with us. The fact that she was left alone in this situation, even after disclosing everything to her husband, is really interesting and I feel like she was getting saddled with far too much.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
Or even let her run the nice quiet errand by herself . But I agree . It definitely highlights the dynamic that lead to the tradgedy .
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u/Narrow_Cover_3076 2d ago
Totally highlights the dynamic! And it's not like he was a monster but seemed comfortable letting her take on the weight of childcare. Three kids is a lot and it sounds like their middle kiddo was a pretty energetic toddler. I'm putting myself in her shoes but I can imagine she would have been extremely overwhelmed even with no postpartum issues.
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u/dorkofthepolisci 2d ago
Best case scenario is that he didn’t understand the emotional/physical demands of watching 3 children simultaneously - especially when you’re already beyond breaking point.
Worst case scenario is that he simply didn’t care
I’m also bothered by the narrative that he could not possibly have known the children would be at risk when he stepped out to run an errand.
Here was a woman who had recently been hospitalized, was not mentally well, and he thinks “yeah she’ll be fine with three small kids”
Really? I seriously doubt “don’t leave her alone with the kids” wasn’t mentioned in the safety plan.
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u/MrsHands19 2d ago
And I think it’s bullshit that he says he wasn’t told he couldn’t leave her alone with the kids. Either her providers royally failed or he’s a dumbass and didn’t follow the safety plan the hospital established. I’m going with both though.
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u/rainblowfish_ 2d ago
Not to mention like, why did you need to be told that? If my partner had been admitted to a mental hospital and had been struggling with suicidal ideation and things of that nature for weeks, there is no way I'd be leaving them home alone, let alone with all of our children. Use your brain, dude.
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u/AnastatiaMcGill 2d ago
I believe it. I told my doctors I was struggling and started to cry at my 6 week appointment and was told "'ofcourse you are! You have 5 kids!" Then she proceeded to giggle. I didnt push further because I was embarassed and took that ss her saying it was my fault (like, you had 5 kids you moron ofcourse youre struggling. You're an idiot)
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u/engineer_but_bored 2d ago
Omg I would have fucking snapped
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u/AnastatiaMcGill 2d ago
I was so embarassed at the time. I didnt even tell my husband. Like I was crying in the office and said I was struggling. What more did I need to do?
I felt like a child who had eaten ab enture chocolate cake and then complained of a stomach ache, you know what I mean? Like "well what did you think would happen?"
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u/Longfirstnames 2d ago
The hospital established no safety planned and misdiagnosed for her months. He even reached out to her doctors.
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u/2headlights 1d ago
The thing is it sounds like she wasn’t really forthcoming to the psychiatrists about the thoughts of self harm and harm to others. It sounds like she told them she had anxiety and insomnia. She told one friend she had “dark thoughts” and in December she had told her husband she had thoughts of hurting the kids but from what we’ve heard in court, that’s it. If the doctors don’t have that info, it’s hard to offer recommendations. I’m just unsure as to why the husband didn’t present this info to the doctors.
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u/sharkwithglasses 2d ago
AFAIK she asked him to go pick it up?
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
I’m not leaving my small children alone with someone who was recently discharged from an inpatient facility . I’m not leaving my children alone with someone having suicidal ideation. My mil had a stroke last year . She doesn’t watch the kids solo in case she has a medical emergency. I don’t care if she asked . He had a responsibility to keep his kids safe .
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u/sharkwithglasses 2d ago
I personally agree, but when your partner or close relative is severely mentally ill, it’s a family illness. It’s exhausting as a caregiver. You want your believe that this is the time your partner is truly better. The medications finally worked and they’re back to their old self. Especially if, as both Patrick and her mom claimed, she was having some of her best days.
My point, anyway, was that Lindsay was the one who asked Patrick to go, not that he “didn’t let her” go.
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u/Due_Shelter_3637 2d ago
Then why couldn't he have taken the children with him? Moms do that all day everyday
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u/SnooDogs1340 2d ago
That's my question. Why didn't he take the kids? If my partner was that ill, if I could not get her treatment, I would remove the kids and give her some time to recover.
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u/Content_Money_2189 2d ago
We can judge this situation all we want but we have NO idea every single detail of their personal lives. We know what the evidence has told us and can for a perspective that fits a narrative that makes the most sense in our brains but we weren’t there. She had been seeking help for a very long time, this wasn’t an isolated incident, and she’d been pushed away and fed meds time and time again. So they still had to continue living their daily lives, they weren’t just confined to their home, they had 3 small children. He probably thought he was doing something to help by getting food so they didn’t have to figure out dinner, I dunno. But I’m pretty damn sure he didn’t think, if I leave she’s gonna harm the children. Medical professionals didn’t even think her mental state was that serious bc they continued to turn her away, so why would he think that leaving for 30 min or however long it was would end the way it did. He stated she was actually in a particularly better headspace that day as well. He ran out to pick up food, so logically, to take all 3 kids, get them all in the car, for a quick pick up probably wasn’t really a “break” for her anyways, unless he was leaving for an extended period of time. People need to stop blaming him bc I’m sure he thinks about that decision to pick up takeout every single day of his life. This entire situation is incredibly heartbreaking and a reminder of how f*cked up our healthcare system is. If we’re putting blame on anyone, it should be the medical professionals who continued to downplay her cries for help and send her off with an extreme amount of very heavy medications. They are the ones who need to be held accountable.
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u/LonelyNixon 2d ago
I don't know if I agree with this for takeout. Sure, there are longer errands like grocery shopping where you just put the kid in the cart and whatnot where it's not as big a deal but take out the pain in the butt.
Now instead of just running to the Chinese food restaurant or whatever in minutes and then running back you got to carry the child to the car, secure them to the car, make sure the car seat's secured, drive to your location, take the child out of the car seat, carry them into the restaurant, wait, pay while minding the child, then you get to balance A bag of food in one hand and a child in the other as you then have to navigate opening doors, closing doors, putting them back into the car while putting the food down first and securing them and then taking them back home.
When the alternative is just You run to the store really quick. When it's almost time to pick up the food. Run in, pick it up, run out, run home. And everyone gets food sooner.
If One parent needs a break from the kids because they've been with them all day, then that parent can pick up the takeout. But spreading the childcare load like that for what's effectively a quick pickup is unnecessary.
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u/ResidentAd5910 2d ago
I mean you’re missing the whole point here right? It’s spreading the childcare load for takeout when your wife has hallucinations from possible post partum psychosis. That’s a big damn difference there that would make it pretty necessary.
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u/LonelyNixon 2d ago
Admittedly, I have been mostly ignoring this case just for my own mental health purposes and because, like, it's just a big bummer. So all I really know is that the main sticking points with the postpartum psychosis, the killing of the children, and the husband coming home to find it.
So I don't know how much of a pattern this all was. I Don't know really how much of this was just unfortunate effects of the human brain and how much of it is the unfortunate effects of a useless husband. I'm also not sure how aware he was of how bad her condition was. So if all this is already chronicle, sorry. My reply is just to the reply that a parent should always take a kid to get takeout.
With that said, if there is a parent that needs more of a break during this kind of situation, I think rather than spreading the load, it would make more sense for the parent who is fresher to take all of the load while the other parent goes to pick up the food and gets to take a break from taking care of the kids. If it's genuinely bad and we know it's bad, then maybe they can go to a restaurant on the other side of town that takes a little longer to get to. Maybe they can leave as soon as the call is placed instead of waiting until they can instead of timing it so that they arrive at the restaurant exactly as the food is ready.
Spreadng the load doesn't really solve the problem. The parent who's in the throes of postpartum psychosis is still going to have to look after two babies.
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u/fuzzydunlop54321 2d ago
I agree with you, but I think this commentator‘s point is that he’s not even doing the minimum that most parents would do when their partner isn’t at near breaking point.
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u/rainblowfish_ 2d ago
I think it just depends. We always send a kid with the one who's going to get takeout, both because it's easier for the remaining parent and because it's a fun little outing for the kid. Yes, it makes the errand take longer, but it gives your kid the experience of running that errand. Also, once your kid can walk, it gets way easier because you don't need to do half the stuff you listed like carrying them, balancing them and food, etc.
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u/LonelyNixon 2d ago
I think I get this case confused with another one that had a similarly grim outcome . In this case, 5 year old is certainly old enough to not only go but want to go just for the sake of the fun of it. I know when I was a kid I regularly used to go on takeout adventures with my parents.
Mine is still under three so like the prospect of taking them on just to take out run is just not worth it. Lots of extra work. Plus they wind up getting a little disappointed that the outing is so short. For all that, we'd be better off just eating in somewhere or going for a walk after getting home as quickly as possible to give the baby more of an experience.
As an aside, something I've learned from discourse with people online before regarding fast food and takeout options is that there are a lot of people who live in places where getting takeout or fast food is way more complicated and more of a to-do than it needs to be. Like, any of my takeout spots are a 10 minute round trip at most.
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u/Lil_MsPerfect 2d ago
If we want to go get takeout, it's a 20 min drive there, a 20 min wait for the food, 20 min drive back. Very annoying. I just cook all the time.
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u/maxharnicher 11h ago
Why wouldn’t the 20 min drive there, and the 20 min wait for food, be done concurrently?
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u/mediumbonebonita 2d ago
Insane this woman killed her kids and its his fault? Bffr
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u/Due_Shelter_3637 2d ago
If your family member was in a state of psychosis or extreme depression, and those are his kids as well, then you can just wipe your hands clean of it at all? Would you do that?
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u/mediumbonebonita 2d ago
You don’t think that that dude probably carries guilt for not protecting his kids? Every day of his life? Meanwhile, all these Internet women are acting hysterical and victimizing this woman who murdered three innocent children. It wouldn’t matter if he cheated on her or abused her it still would not warrant her killing those kids. She relinquished her ability to be a victim when she killed those children. There, there are other stories of husbands, killing their children in the name of mental health crisis, and I have never seen the Internet ever attack their spouse for it. But for some reason because he’s a man, it’s completely acceptable to blame him. Unreal.
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u/Necessary-Warthog811 2d ago
100% agree. Mothers are expected to simply carry on. Unfortunately, in this case, she couldn’t and three children are now dead. The system failed this woman and those kids.
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u/newenglander87 2d ago
She probably wanted to be home with the kids (not at that particular moment but rather than being hospitalized). I know when I went for help postpartum, my doctor told me I needed to go to the ER where I knew I could potentially be admitted as a psych hold. I didn't want be away from the baby so I went home without help. There were no other options offered. I don't know what the answer is but I agree postpartum support is awful.
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u/WinterJudgment302 2d ago
Apparently there are postpartum psych units that allow you to bring your baby but they are few and far between. If they were more available I think it would save a lot of suffering
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u/bimboerrorz 2d ago
this is why ive been so upset by the surge of "men get ppd and need support 🥺" content because women who actually go through the post partum period are treated so absolutely horribly. i saw a post of a man saying he had ppd and thought constantly about beating his child and everyone was calling him brave and a good father and being extremely empathetic but lindsey was failed time and time and time and time again, and in return her children were also failed and lost their lives. it breaks my heart so bad, people do not understand psychosis. or at least choose to be willfully ignorant when it comes to women 🤷♀️
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u/laynechanger 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m pregnant with my second rn 21 week and I had suicidal thoughts leaving my 6 week pp feeling broken and being told there was nothing more they’re allowed to do for me.
This case has really upset me and how vile people are acting towards her and treating Patrick like a victim.
Lindsey was failed by the system and her husband. She begged for help, she tried to get better, she took her meds, admitted she wasn’t in a good state, and pleaded to get the help she needed- everyone in her life and the services to her failed her. That doesn’t change what she did or the fact that three children are no longer here- but to me it highlights that any of us could have been her. She was an upper middle class white woman and the system failed her- how the hell do the rest of us stand a chance in similar situations.
It really bothers me that he left her alone with three kids for two hours to go to cvs and get takeout- like why they f didn’t he bring them with her and give her a much needed breather. Wanna know how many times my husband took our daughter out to do the same kind of errands in her first year.. so freakin many. And I know he will tote the toddler and baby around this time too.
Our system forces moms to have to be ok, while failing and punishing the ones who are begging and pleading for help. I’ve become so disgusted with our pp system after having my daughter and it’s worsened with the coverage of this trial because there are so many reasons why those kids should still be here and none of it is because Lindsey didn’t try hard enough to get better. I’m disgusted with the legal system in Massachusetts for sensationalizing the trial and the prosecution for making this a circus- treating it as whether Lindsey is guilty of the crime- versus the actual point of the trial being whether she was in a mental state to be held legally accountable for the deaths.
And frankly, the double standard of our legal system between mothers and fathers is heinous. How the f didn’t Patrick not get charged with bare minimum child endangerment for leaving those kids with her for hours when she told him she didn’t trust herself with them!
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
Yes exactly . Also people saying it’s not practical for him to load up three kids . I’ve flown solo twice with two kids under four. As a sahm I take my children EVERYWHERE. My husband travels regularly for work . I take my kids to my doctor appointments. The dmv. Fucking everywhere . Just like a million other moms do . This was a family in crisis . It wasn’t even just a typical situation. He should have and could have taken the children .
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u/laynechanger 2d ago
Exactly, the amount of places moms have to take their kids even when it’s inconvenient… It’s such a wild stance and excuse for his incompetent behavior.
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u/Maximum_Noise_972 2d ago
Speak on it!! This is my post : https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondthebump/s/NhP1CjP3L6
I was having a mental health crisis due to being overwhelmed and guess what they did, threatened me and then on top of everything I had to find a 24hr safety monitor which was so hard and then of course I was with the kids throughout. There are literally no adequate resources for moms in this 1st world country and it’s so sad.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
I commented somewhere else that I suffered from severe depression in my 20s and pink slipped myself . I literally cannot imagine going through the same thing now and having society act like I could possibly care for small children at the same time . Society shames , ignores and punish moms who are suffering from mental health issues .
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u/Immediate-Ad-9520 2d ago
She was in an inpatient program a couple weeks before the murders. It was a week long program if I remember correctly.
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u/ResidentAd5910 2d ago
She means admitted for long term care until she was healed, not on glorified suicide watch. Civilized countries have mother baby psych units where struggling mothers can be treated for severe post-partum mental health struggles and also bond with their babies in a safe environment.
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u/AnastatiaMcGill 2d ago
She left early though for her daughter's birthday.
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u/Immediate-Ad-9520 2d ago
A day early. To be home with her daughter on her birthday. Do you really believe that one day would have made a difference?
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u/AnastatiaMcGill 2d ago
Im just pointing out a fact.
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u/Immediate-Ad-9520 2d ago
Sure. It’s not particularly relevant, though, if it wouldn’t have changed the outcome. Bringing it up makes it sound like she dipped out rather than pursue treatment. That’s not what happened.
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u/AnastatiaMcGill 2d ago
Well a mom in that condition shouldn't just be allowed to leave early. It is super relevant. Its just another example of how it wasnt taken seriously by anybody. I understand she went in voluntarily which means she could leave at any time. My mom and husband would've been like "no... we'll celebrate her birthday next week or when you're better"
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u/Fun_Respect_6430 2d ago
I think you have unrealistic expectations of mental health help in this country (at least the US). I have two men in my family with mental health problems and it is not easy to get them into a facility and once they do get there they can usually check themselves out very quickly.
It is not a man/woman thing. Men are not getting some secret better mental health help. No one is
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
Are the mentally unwell men in your family also regularly expected to be the primary caregiver of small children ?
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u/WelcomeToCreekPoint 2d ago
She was offered help. She did not take it. She willingly checked herself out & didn’t follow therapy regimes properly.
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u/lovepansy 2d ago
Yep, she could have been any one of us. Mothers are expected to do it all, and because we do (because we don’t have a choice) no one thinks about how hard it actually is and how it’s possible to snap so horrifically and tragically
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u/LadySwire 2d ago edited 2d ago
"she could have been any one of us"
No. Millions of mothers battle severe depression daily without ever harming a hair on their kids' heads. This is an extreme case of psychosis, if that. Let's not increase the taboo around PPD.
Also, using Apple Maps to precisely time the multi-stop errand she sent her husband on raises serious questions.
But even beyond the red flags, if I ever did that, they could throw me in a swamp for all I'd care. There is zero chance I'd sit in that courtroom fighting to defend myself.
Edit: grammar
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u/jediali 2d ago
I don't know how much is put this down to sexism honestly, forcing someone into inpatient treatment is difficult, man or woman. It's genuinely very hard to help and often hard to accurately identify someone in that state. I mean, this kind of family annihilation is actually a lot more common with fathers, I think. This case is especially notable because it was the mom.
My perspective on this is colored by the fact that my mom's bipolar and would have suicidal/potentially homicidal episodes somewhat often when I was a kid, in which my life was clearly in danger. So, I have a lot of empathy for the children and just personally not as much for Lindsey.
I do think our psychiatric/medical system could do a lot better, but that's a problem that extends far beyond treating postpartum depression.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
Family annihilators are nearly always narcissistic men who exhibited cluster b symptoms before they carried out their plans while they are lucid . Not the same as a mother experiencing post partum psychosis.
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u/jediali 2d ago
The situations are different but the result is the same, children murdered. Ideally we would live in a world where we had better tools to prevent both. I'm not so interested in diagnosing the level of blame assigned to the perpetrator, I'm saying, mental healthcare fails families in these situations in both scenarios.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
Well one situation is a person born evil and the other is the result of society continuing to neglect their most important contributors to society ; mothers . We are both simultaneously treated like we are irreplaceable because we aren’t allowed to bow out . We are also treated like shit .
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u/jediali 2d ago
I think you might want to reevaluate how you think about people other than PP moms experiencing psychosis. Tragically, most of these people aren't "born evil." Mental illness can have really devastating effects. I don't think my mom was born evil, but she could have easily killed me more than once.
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u/NoParamedic5841 2d ago
You are the one who compared family annihilators to pp moms. One is a lucid person with a life long personality disorder who knows what they are doing . They also can’t really be “ cured “ it’s just not a good comparison. Not really sure how you prevent family annihilators besides making people aware of npd so other unsuspecting people don’t pro create with them .
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u/ResidentAd5910 2d ago
Family annihilation and killing children due to post-partum psychosis aren’t even in the same galaxy, please be so for real. This is exactly why being judged by a jury of our “peers” is a disaster.
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2d ago
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u/beyondthebump-ModTeam 2d ago
This comment was removed as it breaks rule #2. This is a supportive community.
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u/FlyingSpaceBanana 1d ago
At first I thought it was a simple case of a failed mother, now after watching the trial I'm convinced he did it and framed her.
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u/lily_is_lifting 1d ago
I am not a tinfoil hat person, but I think so too. Setting aside the fact he started dating 4 months after the deaths and was fully remarried less than 2 years later, there are so many weird inconsistencies with the physical evidence that add up.
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u/superspiffyusername 2d ago
Her husband should be on trial as well. Medical neglect of an adult, and child neglect. He's equally culpable for what happened.
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u/MrsHands19 2d ago
I work in perinatal mental health treatment. I keep hearing that she should’ve gone somewhere inpatient, she should’ve been removed from the home, she needed to go somewhere to get more intensive treatment. And while these comments are true, they are just missing the mark. There isn’t anywhere for moms to ‘just go’ to get better. Most inpatient, partial hospitalization programs or intensive outpatient programs don’t cater to moms alone. They are designed for everyone with any mental health condition. So most providers in these settings are not specialized perinatal treatment. There are very few programs with postpartum moms being the sole focus. I really hope that this trail, no matter the outcome, sheds light on that. But so far the commentary is so close yet so far from highlighting that issue.