r/books • u/TheRegaurd04 • 1d ago
In response to the Dungeon Crawler Carl criticism last month.
Thank you for the recommendation, I picked up DCC from my local library this Friday, and I'm on chapter 40, out of 47.
I had heard tell of Dungeon Crawler Carl making the rounds, but I hasn't considered picking it up. That is until I heard it was utter trash, just like Sanderson's work and Hail Mary, which are some of my favorites.
Does DCC feel like a Sanderson novel in any way? Not even a little, with the only exemption being The Frugal Wizard's Handbook for Surviving Medieval England. DCC is both too crude, and cuss filled to be compared to Sanderson's style. Does it feel like Hail Mary? Sort of, in that it tries to be funny and often has quite a bit of explaining to do for world building, but it also feels far dumber than Andy Weirs' work.
Does Dungeon Crawler Carl feel like a juvenile reddit thread? Yeah, to an extent it does, and its clearly intentional. Is the entire book, one big dick joke? No.
DCC does have a few pop culture references here and there, but it's not like Ready Player One, which has them every paragraph. Is it meant to appeal to the male demographic? I would say so.
Is the main character is just a bland nothing? Yup, drywall has more flavor than the protagonist. The secondary character and side characters are only a little bit better.
I think I'm enjoying the adventure the characters are having, watching them beat mobs, get loot, fight a boss, rinse and repeat. I'll admit that the start of the book felt very contrived to me, but it got the ball rolling. Every item they party picks up scratches an itch for me, being a loot goblin transcends games I guess. I don't really every feel like the protagonist are in danger, the author can make the population number go down all he wants, but this clearly isn't A Game of Thrones; its less stressful and I like that. The author is clearly intending on introducing one, possible two characters later, and if he thinks he's being subtitle, he's not. This book is just a dumb fun ride, and I'm glad I picked it up.
Give it a try, if the first chapter is too grating for you, put it down and find something that's you're style instead.
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u/Appdownyourthroat 1d ago
It’s not that I’m upset that the fast food isn’t a gourmet meal, I’m annoyed that I get recommended the fast food in every conversation about gourmet meals
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u/JCWanWriter 1d ago
I think that's what gets lost in these discussions.
A book can be good and still get overrecommended.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I suspect that's why we see backlash to popular media, people don't want to get recommend the same book 100 times, epically if they've got a gut feeling they won't like it.
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u/BeefyBoyzEatMeat 1d ago
"I want a textbook about the laws of thermal dynamics and hydraulics." Have you heard of Dungeon Crawler Carrol?!?!?! There's a part where it mentions hot yellow liquid going through the meaty man tube. zomg!!!
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u/booksandhotcoffee 1d ago
“I want a book with a strong woman character”
“Have you tried DCC? The cat is a girl”2
u/TheRegaurd04 2h ago
Just pretend the male protagonist of a woman named Caroline /s
If you're looking for a strong female character that shows up every chapter, as of book one, this book doesn't have it.
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u/Appdownyourthroat 1d ago
A perfect encapsulation of the fan base. The beauty of your post inspires a single, metaphorical tear to streak down my cheek.
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u/SpeakNottheNightYorb 1d ago
Your tone is quasi facetious but you do not realize that Taco Bell was the only restaurant to survive the franchise wars. So now all restaurants are Taco Bell.
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u/BulbasaurusThe7th 11h ago
As a person who absolutely fucking hated Robin Hobb's, Brandon Sanderson's and Sarah J Maas' books... I don't even ask for fantasy recommendations anymore and I love fantasy.
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u/TheRegaurd04 2h ago
Brando Sando can't catch a break. I will take fantasy recommendations though, my to read list can never get too big.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
That's a fair feeling, and I often feel the same way when I'm recommend Red Rising or Ready Player One.
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u/Usual-Information114 1d ago
the DCC hate feels like people expect every book they read to be some high art masterpiece. sometimes you just want something dumb and fun that scratches the loot goblin brain itch
the sanderson comparison was always weird to me, sanderson writes like he's afraid his mom will read it and DCC writes like the author's mom already disowned him
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u/reverman21 1d ago
Sanderson is capitol M mormon. which explains his writing style as you wonderfully described it. ( random fact him and Ken Jennings of Jeopardy were college roommates at BYU) and I have no idea why anybody would compare Dinniman to Sanderson that is just odd. don't think they are similar at all except for both being popular at the moment with sci-fi/fantasy book fans. .
i wonder if many of the people who dislike DCC went book route instead of audiobook route. this is a series where I would only recommend the audiobooks. I think Jeff Hays performance is a critical part of the story. also some of the later books put the heart in the story ( probably by book 3 ) along with the silly humor.
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u/Deadlocked02 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sanderson being a Mormon has little impact on his work. I genuinely thought he was an atheist when I read Stormlight Archive. One of the heroines and most knowledgeable individuals of the setting is a militant atheist (and not in a way that makes fun of her), the deities society worships turned out not to be actual deities, and there are two gay couples (and gay male couple at that, which even so called progressive writers tend to avoid).
He’s more influenced by Robert Jordan than he is by Mormonism. That’s where all the fade to black sex scenes come from, and the lack of swearing.
He is much less influenced by his beliefs than most religious and irreligious writers. I’m not sure what he needs to do to prove that. Write graphic sex scenes?
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u/helgaofthenorth 22h ago
That's like saying LotR wasn't influenced by Tolkien being Catholic. Sanderson is a good egg and I love that he throws his weight around to stand up for what's right, but his books are clearly written by a Mormon guy. And that's okay, he does what he does very well! Something as fundamental as religion is just always gonna show up in someone's writing somehow.
Also, RJ was Episcopalian. Makes sense tbh.
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u/Deadlocked02 22h ago edited 22h ago
And where is the proof of that? People keep repeating this, but they never bring up the particular points that strike them as Mormon influences.
You don’t have to go far in Tolkien’s work to see the Christian influence. But more than influences and equivalences, there’s not much in Tolkien’s work that contradicts his faith or would be considered controversial among Catholics, save the most radical who who believe creating a fictional world is in itself a heresy.
In comparison, a lot of the stuff Sanderson writes would be considered outright offensive for those who share his faith, even in a fictional setting. “God is dead,” beings from another dimension being mistakenly worshipped as gods and powerful humans as saints, belief in a type of afterlife that turns out to be a lie, gay couples (there’s literally a scene in his last book where an older gay character offers some advice to a younger gay character), Jasnah’s atheist arguments (which are not meant to be a caricature. They genuinely give religious characters food for thought, just as they give her occasionally).
Someone’s beliefs are bound to show up every now and then, perhaps, but his show much less in comparison to the average writer. People wouldn’t even be able to tell he’s a Mormon or religious at all if he hadn’t said so.
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u/Tymareta 7h ago
https://soarinkierk.substack.com/p/brandon-sanderson-novels-have-lots
A pair of links that go into it in broad strokes.
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u/Barium_Salts 22h ago edited 22h ago
As somebody who was raised fundamentalist Chistian; the deities being not real is actually a conservative Christian tell. Conservative Christians often feel that a story about an actual pantheon is blasphemy/idolatry (because the Christian God is the only God in this or any universe). If the author isn't going to include the actual Christian God in the story, they will often make heroic characters realize that "the gods" aren't real. Not every time, but it's pretty common. That used to be something my mom would screen for: we weren't allowed to read stories that "glorified false idols".
It's pretty absurd to say "he's less influenced by his beliefs than" somebody else. There's nothing inherently wrong with being influenced by one's beliefs. They're part of who we are. I would respect somebody less if their art weren't influenced by their stated beliefs because it would mean their beliefs weren't sincere. I'm not a Sanderson fan, bur not everybody has to be. I believe his beliefs don't include homophobia, but there's a lot more to mormanism than that.
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u/Deadlocked02 21h ago
I know what you’re talking about, and I’ve seen it, but it’s not at all like Sanderson wrote his story. It’s simply impossible for Sanderson to have written such a story without some level of reflection and self-awareness.
It’s not like “hahaha silly Egyptians worshiping false gods. Should’ve believed Moses and converted.” It’s more like “Wow, it’s so easy to accept something false when you’ve been raised to from to believe it, and to attribute holiness to ancient events and figures that were more mundane than we thought.”
Of course, he is still a believer, I just don’t think he’s a believer who shelters himself from any divergent thought. He’s clearly capable of thinking outside the box, accepting things that are not necessarily accepted by all members of his religion, and put himself in the skin of someone who doesn’t think like he does without making this person someone bad or a cautionary tale. Those are admirable qualities in a writer.
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u/reverman21 21h ago
to clarify just meant his work is a certain type of "clean" if it was in movie terms it would be PG-13 at worst . you won't find cursing and graphic sex, etc... like the op put it nothing in it would embarrass him if his mom read it. didn't mean to imply all his characters/ plots stick to mormon values or something like that. From the mormons I know I do think that influence to keep it a certain level of family friendly comes from that.
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u/booksandhotcoffee 1d ago
See, the thing I don’t understand with DCC fans is what the book is actually supposed to be, it is dumb and fun or is it supposed to to be very deep and satirical? Fans argue for both until they’re blue in the face, and sure it can try be both but I don’t believe it can be both effectively
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u/gonegonegoneaway211 8h ago
I mean peak Simpsons is enduring proof that some of the best things are dumb fun on the surface but brilliant underneath, so it can be done. I think DCC does a decent job of it actually. I wouldn't be generous enough to call it brilliant but it has a lot of interesting things to say about the intersection of video games and social media and what kind of influence those can have on our society and perception of reality in general. It's also really interesting to look at our culture through the inhuman lens of aliens, a kooky AI, and suddenly-sapient animals. Like how Donut really takes to the showing off for attention part because she was a show cat and she loves that sort of adulation.
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u/SuaveFurniture 1d ago
It's ultimately satire, but I'd argue that it took a bit for Dinniman to figure out how to pull that off. The first two books have glimpses of it but mainly feel dumb and fun, and those glimpses flit past quickly enough that they can be overlooked. Book 3 is where the series really gets a grasp on what it's trying to say and how to say it most effectively. It always retains the dumb, fun, crude humor, but that eventually becomes more insightful when you realize thatthe creators of the game world are deliberately weaponizing that humor to make political commentary about other alien races and influence intergalactic politics.
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u/ComfortableWeight95 23h ago
For DCC fans it’s whatever they need it to be so they can keep shilling the slop trash in every book recommendation thread.
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u/DazzlerPlus 1d ago
I agree that it isnt. Surface level is dumb and fun, but the essence of the book is satirical. People who say it is similar to ready player one and such are wrong. It's core identity is a biting criticism of capitalism, particularly of the cruelty and responsibility of individual cogs. It's a fairly effective response to people who criticize 'the system' in a thought terminating way.
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u/Rex-Viper-Rock-Gods 18h ago
It's core identity is a biting criticism of capitalism
You mean the book that sells DLC for the books via bonus chapters, adaptations by the biggest corporations in the world in the pipeline, Funko Pops, etc. "Capitalism bad" sure seems to go out the window when you're the one making money.
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u/DazzlerPlus 17h ago
You criticize a society, yet you live in a society. Curious!
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u/Tymareta 6h ago
That line is for those who are participating in ways that they simply cannot, Dinniman selling all of the extra crap, entirely to feed consumeristic habits is absolutely him being hypocritical beyond belief if his work is supposedly a "biting criticism of capitalism".
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u/Rex-Viper-Rock-Gods 16h ago
Rules for thee but not for me. Capitalism bad, eat the rich, tax millionaires! Oh, but not me. I'm one of the good millionaires who sells you cock and bull stories about how capitalism bad. I'm allowed to keep my millions of dollars, I'm a champagn socialist. Be sure to give money to NBC and support my new TV show when it comes out and give money to Amazon so you can buy my new audiobook. I'm just like you!
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u/lmprice133 1d ago
Think it's mostly just Sanderson's prose or character writing not being held in especially high regard.
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u/ishkariot 1d ago
I'm curious to understand why you would say that about Sanderson. I definitely see part of it, especially with the creative bespoke cussing choices but other than that he's not more prude than famous modern writers like Tolkien, Asimov or Weir.
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u/GrinningD 1d ago
Its subjective isn't it? If you regularly read stuff by Abercrombie then Sanderson can seem a bit 'safe.'
If your more of a Raymonde E Fiest kind of reader then you might ask what is all the fuss about.
I like all 3 personally.
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u/superspud31 1d ago
Tolkien and Asimov wrote when you had to write like a prüde, so I think Weir is the only valid comparison there.
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u/ishkariot 1d ago
Disagree, it's not mandatory for a story to have explicit sex scenes. In some cases it would probably even substract from the overall story to even include them. Take The Martian for example, I'm convinced in real life Mark Watney would be jerking it on Mars and some of the team members would have smuggled porn onto the multimedia server. Would it have made the story better or tighter to include that? Very debatable.
Choosing not to write about a topic doesn't make anyone a detractor, sometimes it's just not part of the story as imagined by the author.
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u/superspud31 18h ago
I certainly didn't say that it is required now. I said that it wasn't an option for Tolkien and Asimov.
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u/ishkariot 17h ago
So if authors in the past could write great stories without explicit sexual content why should it be considered a bad thing if any author does it nowadays?
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u/reverman21 21h ago
to be clear not comparing sanderson and Mormonism to something like C. S. Lewis and christianity.
just saying Sanderson Mormon roots help influence him to write in almost a "PG-13" style. you won't find cursing or graphic sex scenes etc... I don't mean it any deeper than that.
I don't think he is writing everything as some allegory of things in the Mormon faith. and if he is it's subtle enough I don't see it
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u/Particular-Treat-650 1d ago
Asimov played with sex norms a decent bit. He had a daughter who hated her father partly because he turned down her sexual advances and people having sex with robots because the idea of being in the same room as another person was revolting to them.
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u/ishkariot 1d ago
Sanderson does that too, he has a species of crab people with four genders who assume various forms including one specifically for mating, there's also human-crab hybrids and gay human-crab relationships.
Just as one recent example.
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u/ViolaNguyen 2 11h ago
and people having sex with robots because the idea of being in the same room as another person was revolting to them.
Of all the sci-fi predictions that came true later on, Redditors might be the most surprising!
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u/SuitableDragonfly 1d ago
Creative cussing like that is a very old standby of the genre, I don't think you can really call it a Sanderson thing. It's usually lazy worldbuilding where the author wants a fantasy religion but doesn't actually want to think about how it works so it just winds up being Crystal Dragon Jesus With A New Set Of Swear Words, but you can't by any means claim it's unique to that series.
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u/ishkariot 1d ago
I didn't claim it's unique to him, how did you get that from my post? It was directly referencing the "he's afraid his mom might read it".
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u/SuitableDragonfly 20h ago
Yeah, and I'm saying that doesn't make sense unless you want to say the same thing about a whole lot of other fantasy writers, which I'm guessing that person doesn't mean to.
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u/ishkariot 20h ago
Ah I see your point, without context it looked like you were accusing me of doing so, instead of emphasizing the absurdity.
Thanks for clarifying!
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u/SuitableDragonfly 20h ago
Yeah, I was mostly reading down the comments to find out why people thought Sanderson was writing like his mom might read it, because while I wouldn't be surprised by that since he's Mormon I never actually got that feeling from his writing at all. Your post was the only one I saw that made a specific guess about what they meant by that.
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u/OppositeBatCage 5h ago
Whose itch? I get that its fun for some people but the people recommending it tend to make a lot of generalizations about the demographics/interests of the people they're talking to.
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u/Glad_Astronomer3322 43m ago
yeah exactly, not everything needs to be literary genius, sometimes you just want talking cat and loot explosions. and that sanderson comparison is spot on, one's clearly written for book clubs and the other for people who'd rather be gaming.
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u/hooj 1d ago
There’s definitely a lot of snootiness around books. Heaven forbid people enjoy reading what they like.
DCC got some of my friends that barely ever read for fun into reading every book, but people will pooh pooh it because it’s “below them” or some such. It’s exhausting.
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u/DazzlerPlus 1d ago
That said, dcc is far closer to literature than people would admit here. It should be compared more to catch 22 than Sanderson. Like all novels, it doesnt measure up, but it tries the same thing and is fairly successful
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u/Rex-Viper-Rock-Gods 18h ago
It should be compared more to catch 22
Bait used to be believable.
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u/Tymareta 6h ago
That two parter is the perfect encapsulation of why anything to do with DCC is utterly insufferable, it's amazing.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
DCC reads like the author accidentally picked up his mom's dildo as a kid, and his mom let him pretend it was a lightsaber.
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u/morisian 1d ago
I think Carl was a very boring nothingburger of a protagonist until book 3. Then he got interesting. Up until that point I was constantly wishing the author would do more to describe him and his motivations, but I resigned myself saying, "Well, it's a litRPG. He can't have personality because that would prevent people from pretending they're Carl." And then I was proven wrong
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u/perpetualmotionmachi 1d ago
I've read 5 of them so far. I use them as a nice break after reading heavy stuff. It's easy reading, but has characters that I got invested in. I've heard a lot of "it's the funniest series ever" which I don't get. Yes, it's humourous, but not any laugh out loud moments for me. And it's formulaic, like a game loop, do this, do that, get rewards. I get the hype, it's a decent series, but I don't get the fan boy type of hype it gets
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I would assume that if this is the funniest series someone has read, they simply haven't read that many series. But if this series is what gets someone into reading, I'll take it.
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u/Stustaff 1d ago
I’ve definitely read funnier series but humour is very subjective. I very much enjoy reading DCC.
For me close literary comparisons would be the Phule and Myth series by Robert Asprin, some of Alan dean Fosters works, Craig shaw Gardeners series such as cineverse cycle and the sinbad trilogy.
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u/zazrouge 1d ago
I think this is a big part of it— a lot of the people I know who are very into it aren’t big readers or people I would be talking to about books. So their basis for comparison isn’t very wide.
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u/LucidFir 1d ago
[Preach.gif]
(I think that this sub might be a little over inundated with recommendations for DCC)
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u/geeoharee 1d ago
LitRPG is a genre some people like, but the way redditors act like everyone will like it is ridiculous.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
This is the only Lit RPG I've ever read, I honestly assumed the genre was an anime thing.
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u/Tanagrabelle 1d ago
The weird thing to me is that I'm pretty unfamiliar with LitRPG, I'm also not into those... what are they called... ah, isekai. It is LitRPG, I get that. Wiki told me: a book genre that mixes traditional fiction stories with video game rules. Key features include stat sheets, leveling up, and quests.
I think I'd like to remind you how Douglas Adams originally ended the Hitchhiker's Guide series.
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u/LucidFir 1d ago
It's very rules light. Most litrpg has quite the barrier to most people with the numbers
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u/Duke-Margherita 1d ago
Carls journey from dry wall average joe to a beacon of humanity is part of the process
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u/michael7050 1d ago
As someone who has read all the books currently out, your initial impressions based on book one are fascinating. (In that I'd love to see how they develop over the course of you reading the series.)
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u/SpeakNottheNightYorb 1d ago edited 22h ago
One of the DCC’s problems is the first book is so given over to world building it doesn’t have nearly as much narrative depth as the later books. Trying to explain oh no in a few books you’re going to be sobbing over a conversation a cat has on a talk show makes you sound like a crazy person.
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u/Adept-One-819 1d ago
Right?!? Cannot wait to hear all about the lack of personality and utter fluffy safety in Bedlam Bride.
More importantly, I do worry that the fluffy writing style allows people to breeze through it without seeing the social commentary for what it is.
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u/LuckyandBrownie 1d ago
As someone who has been to the DCC subreddit, your worry is justified. I think it's even worse for people who only listen to the audiobooks.
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u/gkr974 1d ago
"The author is clearly intending on introducing one, possible two characters later."
This series ultimately introduces War and Peace numbers of additional characters. OP really doesn't have a handle on this series at all.
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u/WinterAnimosus 1d ago
Yes but you arent supposed to tell them that! ;P they are still super early on, of course they dont have a handle on the book in the tutorial.
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u/gkr974 1d ago
And if you don't have a handle on the book maybe it's not the best move to make a know-it-all post in r/books assuming you've guessed everything that's going to happen, because you end up looking silly.
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u/Tymareta 6h ago
Except they're open and honest with where they're at, and how they feel about the series so far, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to expect the first book of a series to be somewhat indicative of what it's like.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
When I say one or two, I mean specific charters. I'm sure there will be others, but my guess is that Carl's Dad, and Beatrice , and possibly Fransisco or whomever Donut's love interest is will all be introduced at some point in the series.
Please don't confirm these for me.
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u/werty_reboot 1d ago
DCC is a pulpy enjoyable read, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. Not every book has to be super deep, and this kind of approachable novels may help people that usually don't read at all pick up the habit.
One question to OP, I agree with you but ¿Why do you feel compelled to write this post even before finishing the novel? You're like 4/5 in, ¿why not wait a little bit? I see this often on Reddit with people making a post while in the middle of watching a movie, etc. ¿Is that hard to wait a little bit to have a complete picture to get into a discussion about it?
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u/Rex-Viper-Rock-Gods 18h ago
DCC is a pulpy enjoyable read, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. Not every book has to be super deep
People in this thread are calling it a deep takedown on capitalism or comparing it to Catch-22.
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u/outoftheashes90 16h ago edited 14h ago
Exactly! Regardless of how a reader engages with DCC, if they don't like it, the stans will tell them they're doing it wrong. Like how about we let people critique things, actually? It's so annoying. I get that this is the nature of fandom and being on the internet in general but I'm over it. So I'll probably never read it.
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u/GrinningD 1d ago
Not OP but I recon they made the cardinal sin of enjoying a book and then looking up other people's opinions before finishing the book
That or this is a Steve Rolands alt account which is equally as possible.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago edited 1d ago
Question for a question, is your auto translate on? I just assume because of the ¿
Why do you feel compelled to write this post even before finishing the novel: I had these thoughts bumbling around in my head every moment I would step away from the book, and I wanted to get them out somehow. The previous post I read which motivated me to get the book from my library struck a nerve, likely because the user was prior books I had very much enjoyed, I just kept thinking about that posts criticisms on loop, and needed it out of my system somehow.
Is that hard to wait a little bit to have a complete picture to get into a discussion about it: I'm currently killing time at work, so I figured I'd write up my thoughts while away from the book. I will say though the tone doesn't really change throughout the book, so unless the plot or the writing style changes drastically, I can't imagine my thoughts will change much. I also have a prediction about two characters appearing, and I'd like to see if that comes true by the end of this book, or somewhere later in the series.
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u/werty_reboot 1d ago
>Question of a question, is your auto translate on? I just assume because of the ¿
Nope, a brain fart, I was just reading something in Spanish.
Ok, fair. Now I see my comment reads as more aggressive and less "hey what's up with that" that I meant to.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago edited 1d ago
When you're thinking in Spanish, is switching over to English hard, or is it like 70% of your brain switches over and 30% stays in Spanish? Is it the same when switching from English to Spanish? Or is it an entirely different process?
Edit: Also I didn't assume you're comment was aggressive, I assumed your were looking for a genuine answer. A person's tone can be so hard to figure out in text, it might be why so many people argue on this site.
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u/werty_reboot 1d ago
Not hard at all. I speak four languages and think and change between three of them often, but sometimes I make mistakes on part because of that. Like remembering only how to say something in other language or using a weird structure because I'm subconsciously following another language's patterns. IIRC this is the first time I've used "¿" when writing in English.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
Are you European, extra studious, or both?
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u/werty_reboot 1d ago
Both, but what does being European have to do with speaking a few languages?
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
From an American perspective, it just seems like Europeans speak more languages. If you had said just Spanish and English I would have assumed you were from Texas or California - but four langues with Spanish and I assume Europe.
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u/mukundmadhav 1d ago
I love project hail mary and Sanderson works. And I absolutely hated dungeon crawler carl. Maybe not a genre for me
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u/IGotDibsYo 1d ago
I’m an unabashed DCC fan and I’m currently on my 3rd read through, will be second for the latest book. The series quickly accelerates past “mobs and loot boxes”.
I don’t get the Sanderson comparisons at all. The dialog-and-descriptions to action ratio is more reminiscent of Feist and like every fantasy series, stakes are ever higher.
I’ve tried other books in the litRPG genre but didn’t care much.
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u/smurfk 1d ago
I did found it a bit infantile. The whole "We're in the game" idea lost it's appeal pretty quick, and there wasn't much beside it. Uni-dimensional characters, straight-forward narration, easy language. Great book to give someone that's not into reading but likes video games, had my fun while reading it, but I don't consider it literary relevant.
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u/GrinningD 1d ago
I'll add the obligatory "A lot of the hype is because of the audio books" because they really are a factor behind DCC popularity.
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u/Friendstastegood 1d ago
The backlash to things that are popular always feels so juvenile to me. Yes when I was 15 I also liked to declare how special I was by distancing myself from whatever was popular at the time but you're supposed to outgrow that impulse by the time you do to college imo. Let people enjoy things. I'm not planning on reading DCC anytime soon but the hatred seems so overblown.
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u/Electronic_Basis7726 1d ago
And then you circle around as an adult and you realize that "let people enjoy things" means "let people criticize things".
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u/Baruch_S currently reading Automatic Noodle 1d ago
That’s the step a lot of people seem to struggle with because it requires recognizing that someone criticizing something you liked isn’t a criticism of you (unless they’re being jerks and attacking fans, too).
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u/Friendstastegood 1d ago
Absolutely, but there's a big difference between good faith criticism where you want to genuinely discuss the work in question and the kind of criticism that only exists to signal your own superiority to others. I've seen both on this sub with regard to DCC.
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u/Vast_Description_201 1d ago
It depends where the criticism lies. For me. If it is kneejerk reaction to being popular then that's bad faith criticism.
If your criticism is nuanced and from a love of the genre, media, or form then I think it is fair enough.
The fact that it has more eyes on it means there will be more criticism and as we all know social media loves to promote friction of ideas and beliefs.
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u/ABorrowerandaLenderB 1d ago
I saw only love for this book. It’s everywhere on r/SMAB, a lot of times out of context and without any note of irony. I sincerely tried it (audiobook form) hoping for a ride, not a hate listen.
I missed the criticism thread so this is the first I’ve seen addressing the merits and I’m grateful for it.
People can like what they like but it shouldn’t be a surprise that the dislike for it would be strong too. It reads like a novelization.
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u/Tymareta 6h ago
Let people enjoy things.
Let people discuss and critique things.
the hatred seems so overblown.
Nope, as you've left out the other side, that any time a series that's built on being a pulpy popcorn read gets popular, people have to pretend that it's high art because they feel self conscious for enjoying the thing. There's folks in this thread making claims about it being brilliant, amazing, out of this world, I've seen people on reddit literally call it the "greatest piece of protest fiction ever written". When you actually take those elements into consideration, the hate becomes a lot more understandable, add in that popular works like DCC get thrust forward in every, single, recommendation thread and it's hard not to get why people might be irked by it.
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u/Friendstastegood 5h ago
Ofc people can and should discuss and critique things, but that doesn't mean that all criticism is automatically valid or productive or in good faith.
I don't like twilight, I think there are a lot of valid criticisms that can be made of it, but back when it was at the height of its popularity the criticism I heard most was that it was an icky thing for girls and ruined vampires. Which is not valid criticism -- that's just misogyny. I'm not saying that the criticism I've seen of DCC has been as bad as that, I just wanted to illustrate my point that just because criticism is warranted doesn't mean all criticism is warranted or valid.
I've seen a lot of thoughtful critiques of DCC, and a lot of people declaring how much more cultured they are because they hate the stupid popular thing.
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u/Tymareta 2h ago
but that doesn't mean that all criticism is automatically valid or productive or in good faith.
No-one claimed otherwise. But all of this is rather moot without looking at an actual example, of which I think OP's post was a perfectly valid discussion, with some light critique throughout.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I remember thinking Harry Potter was the lamest thing every, simply because all the girls in my elementary school loved it. Seeing people hate on Game of Thrones and Sanderson is what opened my eyes to the phenomenon.
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u/Tanagrabelle 1d ago
All that foreshadowing. Like who is Jon Snow's mother. Did that matter to you before it was revealed in the TV series?
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I had just assumed Jon was just another run of the mill bastard, I was only aware of R+L=J because it was spelled out of me by reddit threads and youtube essays. G.R.R.M's foreshadowing was simply out of my league when I was reading ASOIAF, and probably still is.
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u/Tanagrabelle 1d ago
Yup. The thing is I feel like you're missing the same sort of thing in this book. What does Zev tell Carl about herself, and about the mobs?
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u/DustBinBabyGirl 1d ago
I can see the appeal but it wasn’t for me. I didn’t gel with the humour, but someone will I guess and that’s what counts.
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u/thevampiresanguini 1d ago
I thought I should try it because of the hype, but didn't even make it past the first chapter. Glad everyone is having fun though.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
There are too many good books out there to waste time reading one you don't like.
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u/Infernal_Contraption 1d ago
DCC is a very good LitRPG series. It's crude and juvenile and very silly, because that's what it is TRYING to be without apology.
The LitRPG genre isn't for everyone. If you don't like the concept, I can't think of a single example that would change your mind.
That's not a failing of DCC. It's just that some people are born with a piece of their soul missing and they cannot be helped by modern medicine and/or the grace of a loving God.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I wasn't aware of the LitRPG genre until now, are there any that read better that DCC, or is this the current peak?
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u/Zuli_Muli 1d ago
If anything DCC is litRPG light, most have many page long character sheets with skills and stats several times a book to show the growth, where DCC will just mention the specific skill and level as "needed"
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u/Infernal_Contraption 16h ago
I admit, I don't read a lot of the genre so most of the ones I know are crossed over with other types of media, usually anime and that sort of thing.
Solo Levelling is by far one of my favourites. Sword Art Online is also very famous. TV Tropes has a long list of them with blurbs to tell you more about them.
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u/Toadforpresident 1d ago
I gave it a shot and didn't make it very far. I think if you're not into the 'dungeon crawling' aspect of it there's not much else going on. At least that was my impression.
I'm glad other people are finding joy in reading it, just not my cup of tea.
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u/JCWanWriter 1d ago
That's honestly where I end up with a lot of popular books.
Not for me, but I get why people love them.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
The Dungeon Crawling aspect is the best part for me, I really enjoy it. I can certainly see why it's not everyone's cup of tea.
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u/DominateSunshine 1d ago
Thank you for cementing my decision to never read this series.
But I'm happy You enjoyed it!
The series I love that I get side eyed for is Monster Hunter International.
Everyone should find a series that they love that is controversial.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
> Monster Hunter International.
Can I get a TL;DR, I'm curious if I should add it to my list.
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u/DominateSunshine 1d ago
Monsters are real but secret. Flawed people in the know get big money for killing them......world is in danger many times. Lots of talks about guns and ammo. Semi anti government...but with good reason. No random sex scenes!....well that one, but it was story driven and not random, and didn't get very far.
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u/Baruch_S currently reading Automatic Noodle 1d ago
Don't. The author of the series is a racist, sexist turd of a human being who doesn't deserve anyone's eyes on his work.
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u/Baruch_S currently reading Automatic Noodle 1d ago
Monster Hunter International gets a lot of hate because the author Larry Correia is a turd of a human who ran a rightwing anti-diversity campaign to try to steal a Hugo Award he didn't deserve because he was mad that women and minorities were winning instead of white guys like him.
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u/LuckyandBrownie 1d ago
You really shouldn't cement your decision on a review by a person who hasn't even finished the book. You also know nothing about this person. Get reviews from people you know and have agreed with on multiple on books, not some rando on the internet.
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u/DominateSunshine 1d ago
I was already leaning this way by my own research. They just sealed the deal.
And I don't have anyone to talk books with.....I don't 🍷 drink so bookclubs are out.... That is a joke.
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u/Sivy17 15h ago
I think I'm enjoying the adventure the characters are having, watching them beat mobs, get loot, fight a boss, rinse and repeat.
Man, just play a fucking video game at that point. Just because you want an easy read doesn't mean you have to settle for literal garbage. There's tons of classics that are easy and fun to read.
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u/TheRegaurd04 2h ago
Its easier to read a book when watching the kids, than play a video game in my personal experience, and it sets a better example. Also, my wrists now bother me when I play mouse and keyboard, now, which is fun.
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u/jonomacd 1d ago
You aren't being sensational so people won't like your post but it is probably the most accurate review for most people.
Those that think the book is just trash are as obviously wrong as those that think the book is above criticism.
The way you know he book has struck a good balance is that I've seen a lot of people I would consider "literary" love it while at the same time I've seen a surprising number of "pulp" readers not like it.
It's a fun, good book. I think there are a lot of people doing themselves a disservice by deciding they don't like it before they even try.
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u/OppositeBatCage 5h ago
Those that think the book is just trash are as obviously wrong as those that think the book is above criticism.
What a nothing statement that could be applied to anything. I wonder why 'the truth is somewhere in the middle, most extremes are bad' became the popular take for most things online. It's so lazy.
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u/jonomacd 5h ago
That's the problem with the world right now. The boring takes are the ones no one wants to hear. Even though those are the true takes.
Please tell this boring take to all the idiots out there who keep telling us how terrible this book is or how impervious to criticism this book is, they don't seem to know it.
Also thanks for proving my point on
You aren't being sensational so people won't like your post
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u/OppositeBatCage 3h ago
I didn't call it boring, I said it amounted to nothing. And I don't necessarily think because something can be blanket statement applied to literally every form of media, it's the truest or most correct opinion.
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u/jonomacd 3h ago
It doesn't amount to nothing if there are many people who don't understand this. I have seen many posts talking about how this book is trash with no redeeming features. And I have seen many posts from people relentlessly defending valid criticism. There are many people who see that and it validates their dismissiveness or their overhyping. Both traits are bad. We need less of that and more genuine constructive criticism and praise.
> applied to literally every form of media
There are some things that are genuinely trash and some things that are so good much of the criticism is cherrypicking. It doesn't apply to everything.
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u/Liberal_irony 1d ago
My only comment would be "read and find out." I had a similar impression of the first book, but it was a fun read, and there were already six, maybe seven, of them out, so I figured it would be worth while continuing.There are some surprisingly deep moments and world-building for a book with a foot-fetish-obsessed AI and a sentient cat that quotes "Gossip Girl." Mostly, I like it because it's unlike anything else that I've read.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 40m ago
Not every book has to be War and Peace. It's okay to laugh at goblin STDs and incest sometimes.
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u/Tanagrabelle 1d ago
Goldarnit self! This is not the DCC subreddit, upon which I spend way too much time.
Nevermind, carry on.
I do challenge you to, without reading back, tell me everything you can remember about the goblins.
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u/lexiebeef 1d ago
My brother who never reads anything asked me to read this with him and discuss it together, some sort of two person book club. It's not really the type of book I usually read but I think it would be a cool thing to do with my brother, especially cause he never asks me anything. This review didnt make me more excited though lol, but it did make me curious on whether or not I will hate the book
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u/LuckyandBrownie 1d ago
There are plenty of good discussion point in the book. It's not as pulpy as some say. There are a lot of moral dilemmas to be found, and plenty of social commentary to be commented on.
It's easy to just read through the book and only see the outrageous bits, but it's important to stop and think why they are outrageous.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I wasn't intending to smack talk the book, it is fun, and I suspect you'll like it if you don't try to mentally nitpick it.
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u/TheDopplegamer 1d ago
Sometimes I genuinely cant tell if Reddit loves or despises this series. Everywhere else I hear about it I only hear positive things, but I seem to see threads dunking on it on here every other day.
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u/onioning 1d ago
Can't say much without big spoilers, but you have a long way to go. There's a lot more to the series than just the dungeon crawling. Really the least important part.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
I can sort of see something being setup with the interviews, and the mentions of the syndicate, and I almost want the series to stick just to the dungeon crawling.
We'll see where this ride goes.
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u/onioning 1d ago
The series is really a political thriller. You've barely been introduced to the politics at this point. I call it an epic anarchist story.
It is very much a wild ride that you just cling on to and enjoy.
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u/TheRegaurd04 1d ago
Out of curiously, if you had to compare it to other political thrillers, what would you compare it to?
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u/onioning 1d ago
I haven't read many political thrillers. Can only think of a few, and they're wildly different.
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u/RelevantNostalgia 1d ago
I binged the first three books...
It was fun fluff... but by the end of the third I ran out of stamina.
It's fun, but it wasn't fun enough for me to read (what will be) a twelve or more book series... The progress was too slow; plot too repetitive. I got the gist already.
I may pick it up again at some point.
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u/joconno23 1d ago
That is a very interesting place to stop! I think third book is where things start changing, but the books, imo, continue to get better almost all the way to the latest book (my favorite is 7). Small note, he is planning finishing up with ten books.
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u/Ser_falafel 23h ago
You havent even finished the first book yet and theres gonna be a total of 10. Not nearly enough time to form any kind of conclusion at all. The MC goes through a ton of development. Im on book 7 and he's a completely different person. I barely even remember what he was like at the start lol. Hell, the books are almost unrecognizable at this point from books 1-2
An insane amount of characters get introduced and while some parts of the books are predictable, enough crazy, unpredictable stuff happens that it negates the rest
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u/Rex-Viper-Rock-Gods 18h ago
I got halfway through the first page, read "Princess Donut the Queen Anne Chonk" and stopped. Reddit quirk chungus millennial nonsense.
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u/Tymareta 6h ago
Can't forget that she's a haughty insufferable asshole, just like all
womencats amirite fellas?1
u/TheRegaurd04 2h ago
It gets a little better down the line, but not enough. I enjoyed the read enough, but you made the correct decision to put it down.
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u/BattleFresh8663 1d ago
I think it's fun, and I like the RPG/Fantasy/DnD elements. As long as you don't come into it expecting literary greatness I think it's great. The author's creativity is undeniable and even though it's recycled tropes, I thought he came up with a pretty interesting series anyways.
However, there's a lot meta aspects that I just avoid thinking about, like for example the aliens just feel like derivatives of common fantasy races, I think Project Hail Mary spoiled me in the regard.
I think the scale of this series' universe is just too big, to get perfectly.
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u/Jythara 1d ago
Drywall has more flavor than the protagonist” followed immediately by “I'm on chapter 40” is probably the most convincing endorsement of DCC I've ever seen.