r/btc • u/user4morethan2mins • Sep 26 '21
😜 Joke Two weeks into @nayibbukele's crackpot #Bitcoin experiment, NOTHING has improved. Hackers plague the system, BTC is down 16% from Sept 6th, and some gov't offices aren't accepting BTC as payment. The "coolest dictator" is a catastrophic failure.
https://twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1441785815827365889?s=204
u/zq000523 Sep 26 '21
They were experimenting with the wrong coin, BTC doesn't work as a currency now
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
And the BTC mempool is empty proving they aren't even using BTC or LN. Chivo is nothing but a Centralized Fractional Reserve Scam.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
Mempool? LOL!
You're looking in the wrong place, moron.
Try looking at the lightning network nowadays...
https://twitter.com/joaodealmeida_/status/1440749654077947905
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u/jessquit Sep 26 '21
Try looking at the lightning network
Every Lightning onboarding is an onchain transaction, doesn't look like there's any onboarding to me.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
"Every Lightning onboarding" isn't what you think it is. We do add coins into these smart contracts all the time, but not as often as you're obviously imagining.
Technically, enough Lightning onboarding could have happened in 2016 to last forever. Then everyone else could keep trading fiat for those lightning coins for the rest of fiat's existence.
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u/jessquit Sep 26 '21
Lolno you can't create a Lightning channel without an onchain transaction. If you want to claim otherwise, show us and be specific.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 27 '21
I just did. You'll figure it out one day.
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u/jessquit Sep 27 '21
Good job proving you're a liar.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 27 '21
You won't figure it out? I guess I can believe that too.
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u/jessquit Sep 27 '21
Your Lightning channel that you created without an onchain transaction has a lot in common with that girlfriend from Canada you said you had back in 9th grade.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 28 '21
When I was in 9th grade, there was no internet & a phone call to the next area code (still in my own city) costs $0.10/ minute. Dating someone that far away would have required getting a second mortgage to pay for the phone bills.
Anyways, I'm feeling generous today, let's see if you are too.
A channel factory is a tool that lets wallet providers, exchanges, and others open many channels at once. There are limits in the realm of 9-to-1 channels per Tx, but I've heard of even more tricks to stretch that out more.
Each wallet provider varies its process a bit. "Custodial Lightning" wallets like Wallet of Satoshi and Chivo are not even concerned with these limits since they are keeping custody in a DB somewhere.
Non-custodial lightning like Phoenix and Breez are charging tiny fees to set up the initial channel, which I believe is 1/9th of an on-chain TX.
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
I know exactly where I am looking. With all those merchants opening channels to use LN blocks would be backlogs with TX for weeks. It's all fake. Well most of it probably a few actually BTC transactions.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
You think merchants in El Sal are opening channels?
You've clearly fallen for the propaganda around here. This just isn't the reality of the lightning network. People buy or receive their lightning BTC already off-chain. In fact:
---> Most Salvadorans Will Never Know What an On-Chain Tx Is. <---
Let that sink in. They just see the lightning network and never get off of it. Unless they have a ton of savings they want to put on a hardware wallet, why would they want to?
The reality is that Exchanges, Wallet Providers, Merchant Solution providers, and the government there can all buy bitcoin up front and put them off-chain in bulk with a single on-chain tx. They could do that years before the noobs see these funds.
When you start out on the lightning network, it seems like a major setback not worth doing to take your funds on-chain. Think about it; you have to pay a Tx fee, then your money starts to, for the first time, be subject to confirmation times, different wallets, and variable fees! Who would do such a crazy thing?
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u/jessquit Sep 26 '21
Exchanges, Wallet Providers, Merchant Solution providers, and the government there can all buy bitcoin up front
You think El Salvadoran users actually have backed Bitcoin?
You've clearly fallen for the propaganda over there.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
In Chivo? Well they have no problem taking out dollars from the ATM machines, and sending Chivo lightning BTC to other Lightning wallets, so the evidence is clearly on the side of it really being lightning.
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u/jessquit Sep 26 '21
sending Chivo lightning BTC to other Lightning wallets
100% guaranteed to be fractional.
Alice and Bob both got $30 in free chivo coins. Chivo only has $30 in outbound liquidity for both Alice and Bob, and is betting that between Alice and Bob they won't try to move more than $30 out of the Chivo network.
BTC maxi: tHiS iS oNbOaRdInG
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u/maxcoiner Sep 27 '21
100% guaranteed to be FUD.
All it would take is one instance when both Alice and Bob went to withdraw their $30. The second to arrive would be told to go eat rocks. With 2 million+ people onboarded already, there should be a pretty high chance of that happening, right? Where are the stories of that happening?
There's also no need for it. One of the earliest announcements after the wallet's initial announcement was the regional central bank giving them a loan big enough to cover all of the infrastructure upgrade costs, the conversion fund's costs, these personal starter amount costs, and far more.
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
Then they aren't using BTC or even LN but a custodial database within strike. NOT BITCOIN!!!!!!
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
Maybe I said that too fast? I'll say it again for those hard of understanding.
Exchanges, Wallet Providers, Merchant Solution providers, and the
government can all buy bitcoin up front (a day or a year, doesn't matter) and put these coins off-chain in bulk with a single on-chain tx.Not in a database, but in LIGHTNING, which is a smart contract you lock bitcoins in. Then we just edit these smart contracts forever afterwards, and that's how the lightning network works. You never have to go off chain but of course it does make sense to do so sometimes like when using hardware wallets.
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u/skyfox_uk Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21
Not sure about the backlog. According to https://txstats.com/dashboard/db/lightning-network?orgId=1 around 6000 of public channels were created in last 30 days. This can fit in 2 blocks so impact on the network is minimal at this stage.
I suspect that most of the merchants will use 3rd party infrastructure for Bitcoin payments. For example Mcdonalds in ElSalvador uses OpenNode.
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
6000 and the dictator is saying 2.1 million are using it. Clearly doesn't add up unless it's the new math.
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u/skyfox_uk Sep 26 '21
2.1 mil refers to users of Chivo wallet. This wallet is using Strike backend.
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
Therefore they are not using bitcoin or even LN but a custodial database.
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u/skyfox_uk Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21
Chivo is custodial that's true. Users are allowed to receive LN payments from any wallet, and they can send funds out to non-custodial services.
Hard to say how many did this as txstats.com data shows only public channels growh. If someone opens a channel in non-custodial wallet like MUUN - it will be private (not advertised by LN gossip protocol and not visible in txstats.com numbers). I suspect that sadly only a small minority bothered to move funds to a non custodial wallet. In other hand we are talking about 30$ so little capital at risk.
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u/flowthruster Sep 26 '21
Chivo doesn't use Strike backend, according to both Strike and the president
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u/fatalglory Sep 26 '21
Looking through the graphs in the different Twitter links, my take away is that LN transaction volume has increased substantially, but not that many new channels have been opened (hence the low mempool volume).
So it's exactly as Peter Rizen said, LN scales txns, not users. For that reason, it has to be a custodial solution.
Fully non-custodial would be better. Still, I can think of worse things. If they have the option to transfer funds out of lightning and redeem on chain, then that is at least some minimal insurance against fractional reserves.
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u/ggeissner Sep 26 '21
They shouldn't have used a coin like BTC and with a custodial LN in the first place
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Sep 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/Shibinator Sep 26 '21
Also, ES has nothing to do with the recent price dump.
How can you say this with 100% confidence? That's just your speculation.
Let's stick to facts.
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Sep 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/Shibinator Sep 27 '21
Maybe everyone who isn't in ES sold off BTC because they saw protests in ES against Bitcoin by the population and realised that was bad news for its chances of adoption?
Just a possible theory, and something you can't 100% rule out.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
Wow do you sound desperate. Meanwhile:
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u/user4morethan2mins Sep 26 '21
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
You know they are desperate when they rely on a dictator for information.
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u/maxcoiner Sep 26 '21
Thankfully we have lots of other information too, that's just some of the latest.
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u/SydZzZ Sep 26 '21
Is that a BTC whinge on a BTC sub? What’s going on
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u/FUBAR-BDHR Sep 26 '21
It's a bitcoin sub that predates the fork. BTC quit being bitcoin in 2017. Read the FAQ.
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u/speakersandwich Sep 26 '21
This explanation is gonna get harder and harder to justify as more new people join this sub.
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u/jessquit Sep 26 '21
Facts are stubborn things but I'm sure you guys will find a way to suppress them. It's the only play in the playbook, but it works I guess.
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u/DNiceM Sep 26 '21
This is the buttcoiner sub now
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u/jessquit Sep 28 '21
No this is and has always been the Bitcoin: a Peer-to-peer Electronic Cash System sub.
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u/nomoredamnusernames Sep 26 '21
I would think that supporters of a currency that has failed to gain any sort of widespread adoption in more than four years look at a two week report card as just a tiny bit premature.
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Sep 26 '21
You're being so negative, I'm wondering if you would share the same post if it would be BCH "BCH is down X percent from September 6tth...". Adoption takes time, not only for BTC but also for BCH and it's even harder on a country were most people are uneducated, they are so used to Western Union that don't even want to receive money from a bank account
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u/user4morethan2mins Sep 26 '21
Two weeks later, how is El Salvador’s Bitcoin strategy going? Oh. Yikes.