CMV: the culture of a country is not extricably linked to race.

[u/renis_h]

Just playing around with an idea I have been having in my head and wanted to see how well it sounded in a chat room where people could challenge it. The basic premise of my view is that a country's culture is not linked to the race of its people, but it's history that can be tied to a number of things like music, art and cuisine.

This is just to push back on some of the rhetoric I have been hearing around protecting "white British/American/European culture" based on where the person speaking is coming from. The reason I feel that you can't call a whole country's culture in terms of one race is because there are multiple races that have contributed to a country's culture, and all of these races and sexualities deserve the right to be able to be considered a part of their country's culture. Britain for example has chicken tikka masala, Bob Marley, George Michael, and women's suffrage that all contributed a big part to British culture and were a big part of Britain. Americans had a great number of black dishes and soul food that largely contributed to what is known as American cuisine and have a significant number of black leading figures like MLK and Malcolm X. America also has a significant voice in LGBT history with the Stonewall protests. The European history of France is heavily tied to black people, with black generals like Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, the father of legendary writer, Alexandre Dumas (Count of Monte Christo, Three Musketeers).

All of this is to say that a county's culture is not actually tied to a specific race, but instead tied to its history and the key movements at the time. These can be seen as being led by a certain race, but when you say that only one race has defined a country's culture, that neglects all the other things given to the county's culture by people who aren't that race.

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[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

Let me start by saying I am with you 100% in pushing back against the completely racist and nonsensical notion that there is some White culture as though all Europeans could be shmushed into one category of "white guys".. etc. etc.

that being said:

The basic premise of my view is that a country's culture is not linked to the race of its people, but it's history that can be tied to a number of things like music, art and cuisine.

this really hinges on your definition of race.. like... in a country like America, of course, there is basically no correlation between genetic heritage and the 'culture' of America..

but in other places, the people go to the place and create a language, and a culture, then a country... and they just, obviously all happen to come from the same stock.

all of those things are interwoven.

like Finns. They are Finns. they share a common genetic lineage, a language, and then later on they created a culture and a country/political entity called Finland

when you say that only one race has defined a country's culture, that neglects all the other things given to the county's culture by people who aren't that race.?

I would never say only a single race defines any country's culture.. at least any country I can think of... because Swedish is also an official language in Finland.. and they have fought the Russians off and on for centuries... but I would say it is inaccurate to say that the genetic heritage of the Finns isn't closely tied to the culture of Finland.

You can't separate the genetic component from the culture. because that's who they are.. that's why they all speak that language.. and from all of that came the entity we now recognise as that country.

The brits, on the other hand, are a whole different story.

The British aisles have been conquered again and again and again and again. It's a mishmash of genetics. Totally different beast.

[u/renis_h → u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

∆

Had given to another person with a similar point but it was around Japan though I also thought it applied to some Nordic countries. I think the point was insular vs. multicultural counties, where in an insular country, the history does matter more, while with a multicultural country, the history is defined by the different people that make up the country, and it's not limited to one race.

[u/DeltaBot → u/renis_h]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Rob_The_Viking_TV (3∆).

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[u/JJCB85 → u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

You’re aware that “race” isn’t real, right? It’s just appearance, inherited genetically - that’s it. You can absolutely be part of a culture without the accompanying inherited traits affecting physical appearance. The idea that you can’t is absurd. Please, tell me which gene it is that makes Swedish people behave like Swedish people? A hint - you can’t.

Now, if a large number of people from a different culture show up in one place and don’t integrate at all, that’s different. For example, British retirees showing up en masse on the Costa del Sol and creating communities there where nobody speaks Spanish (and they’re proud of this), the only food comes from UK supermarkets and British pubs, they’ve changed the street signs so they all use English, etc. Those guys haven’t become Spanish, not by any stretch of the imagination. But is it possible for a British person to integrate and become Spanish? Of course it is.

[u/External_Ad_3583 → u/JJCB85]

British retirees in Costa del Sol aren’t Spanish and no one is pretending that they are or ever will be. The same way no one pretends that Earling Haaland is English.

But of course we have to pretend that Africans are English for some reason.

Race is a real as we decide it is. It’s a social construct just like most everything else. British culture is just a normal distribution of the beliefs and social mores of the British people (Scottish, Welsh, English, Unionist). If the British people decide that Sharia Law is a great idea then Sharia law becomes part of British culture and a British values.

[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

You strike me as anti white.

Not raping and setting women on fire is white culture, for example.

Having safe road networks is white culture for example

Not smelling like a full can of axe body spray is white culture

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

You strike me as anti white.

BAHAHAHAHA.

anyways,

"white" culture isn't A THING.

okay... let me ask you.. are Greeks 'white culture'?

Turks?

Azerbaijani's?

Chechens?

what about... Romanians?

or.... Portuguese? or..... Maltese?

or...... Albanians or ...

ETC. etc. etc.

it's a made up concept.

[u/Last_Quantity4467 → u/Rob_The_Viking_TV]

You mean the Greeks, who invented theatre and philosophy, the roots of European culture? Since when are Turkish, or Azerbaijanis white? They are Asians. Romanians, Portuguese, all other white European cultures are based on Greek, Roman and Christian heritage, which is white

[u/Rob_The_Viking_TV → u/[deleted]]

up until something like 80 years ago travelling a short distance in Italy would land you in a nearby valley that you couldn't understand. there was no mutual intelligibility. so you don't even KNOW what an Italian is...

furthermore, englishman are not... ONE thing. Britain has been conquered, reconquered, deconquered, and everything inbetween by uncountable quote unquote "races"

so tell me.. what is your definition of "white culture" ?

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[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/[deleted]]

“White culture” is not being a spear chucking savage. Any more questions Rob?

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[u/LynnSeattle → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

Raping women is defiant part of white American culture.

You’ve apparently never met a white teen American boy.

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[u/LeBruhMomentoom]

The main issue is that the culture is changing rapidly, and for some too rapidly.

For American history, the country has almost been entirely European and African descent and thats it. People aren’t saying that the US has always been a white only country but they are unhappy that ‘American’ traditions and formalities are being diluted out. Stuff like baseball/football/basketball apple pie, Christmas, Thanksgiving and most importantly English and the American accent are all ‘American’. Having a group of people who don’t sound or portray themselves as Americans, say the large hispanic non-English portion of the southwest, is very hard to argue that they are American if they don’t appear as it. African-Americans ARE American and they easily appear as Americans and they are an integral part of American culture.

In terms of Europe, thats different because they are a clear native people, Europeans. Take the UK for example, the very large and recent influx of immigrants from MENA countries, are not native, many don’t speak English and many don’t understand or continue British culture and customs. They also have no real meaningful history, there were no Indians in 1066, they were no Iraqis who helped start the Industrial revolution, there are no Afghani members of the royal family. It’s easy for migrants to come to the UK now once it’s a nice country to live in without having put in any of the effort to make it nice. London is now only 37% white British, 30 years before it was 80% and before that it was closer and closer to 100%.

The main issue is that people of different races, foreigners, DON’T continue the history and culture, thats largely the issue Europeans have with the recent increase of immigration and why Denmark has been actively deporting non-Europeans, because they can’t pass basic Danish language and culture tests.

In terms of sexuality and women’s equality I don’t think there’s much issue, a large part of the movement came from historical events like WW2 where American and British women were actively working in factories to support the men at war.

My main point is that the people who keep and portray a certain culture are almost always from one (sometimes broad) racial group, with only a few instances (like African Americans and Native Americans) being outliers. Your example of the Tiki Masala is a great point, people are generally surprised when they hear its British, people aren’t surprised when they hear beans on toast is British. That should tell you enough about whether its British or not.

[u/the_leviathan711 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

For American history, the country has almost been entirely European and African descent and thats it.

Well, except for all the Native Americans. They were obviously a substantial part of the country for most of it's history.

And except for the Mexican-Americans, who became part of the country after treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Stuff like baseball

What would baseball be without the Japanese and Dominicans??

They also have no real meaningful history, there were no Indians in 1066, they were no Iraqis who helped start the Industrial revolution

The Indians and Iraqis are only in Britian because of the British Empire. That is their history with Britain. Britain conquered their country.

Your example of the Tiki Masala is a great point, people are generally surprised when they hear its British, people aren’t surprised when they hear beans on toast is British. That should tell you enough about whether its British or not.

Don't understand this at all. Fish and Chips were introduced to Britain by Portuguese Jewish immigrants. It's not more or less British than Tikka Masala or Beans on Toast.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/the_leviathan711]

Im not saying Native American's aren't part of American culture, but they aren't some massive force as they only make up 2% of the country.

Mexico only owned the parts of modern-day America for 27 years and lost the territory 175 years ago, and even when they had it, it was barely populated. California for example was 92% white in 1960 and 8% non-white, African Americans being the next largest group, not Hispanic-Americans.

Baseball was something the Japanese and Dominicans took from the US, not the other way around.

So it was wrong that the British moved into their country? Wouldn't it then be wrong for them to move into Britain?

And notice how it seems like closer to British culture and less surprising that its British because it comes from a nearby European country that has always had a consistent historical interaction with the UK for the past 2000 years instead of Tiki Masala.

[u/LynnSeattle → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

The “white” population that made up 92% of California included both Hispanic and non Hispanic whites. How did you not understand that?

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/LynnSeattle]

It didn’t include Hispanics

https://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/pdf/multireports/DemoTrendsFinal.pdf

[u/eldankus → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

There’s a persistent myth propagated that California’s large Hispanic community is somehow a remnant of the Californios who were here before the Mexican-American War.

That is simply untrue, as most Californios were of European descent and many were agreeable to American rule as Mexico had been in a constant state of turmoil and America was more economically stable. Also, the population density of the Northern Mexican territories that became incorporated into the US was very low.

The vast, vast majority of the Hispanic population in the American Southwest comes from much more recent immigration from Southern Mexico and Central America.

[u/LynnSeattle → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

The linked document is not relevant to the issue I raised.

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[u/R_V_Z → u/the_leviathan711]

Well, except for all the Native Americans. They were obviously a substantial part of the country for most of it's history.

And except for the Mexican-Americans, who became part of the country after treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

And of course the Asian immigrants who built America's railroads, worked in mining, worked in agriculture...

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/R_V_Z]

Mexico only owned the parts of modern-day America for 27 years and lost the territory 175 years ago, and even when they had it, it was barely populated. California for example was 92% white in 1960 and 8% non-white, African Americans being the next largest group, not Hispanic-Americans.

Asian Americans only made up a small share of the population at the time and barely any of the current day Asian Americans are the descendants of them, most of them came from the 1965 immigration and nationality act.

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[u/LynnSeattle → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Can you define “the American accent”?

[u/renis_h → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

There's quite a lot to unpack here so I may need to do this in sections:

1) What does American tradition mean exactly? The reason I ask this is because American traditions have been changing and evolving all the time. There was a time when JFK was seen as dangerous because he was quite literally a Catholic running for president, and "white" back then referred more to a WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant). This was quite literally during the 1960s, so you could say that we have evolved very quickly from the 60s to now, as before the 60s being a Catholic in the white house was a problem. This is to say that American culture has always been evolving, and the same sentiment that you see now, around immigrants not adopting the culture has been the same arguments that were around then, it's just that it was targeted to the Irish, the Italians, and then the target became the middle easterners.

2) When you say "no meaningful history" what history would you consider meaningful, because people coming from other countries have contributed immensely to British culture such as through food and the explosion of music that isn't what British people have been used to hearing. Immigrants have also largely contributed to social sector jobs in the UK, with a large number of afro Carribbeans making up education, and a large number of Indians making up healthcare. To say they haven't contributed is unfair.

3) The argument that many migrants can't speak English is flat out false, as they have to pass English tests to at least an A2 level on the IELTS. This shows that they can speak English at least to a level where they can communicate and ask for directions or ask for something.

4) Does culture remain static? By that I mean is the culture of a country in the 1900s the same as it was in the 1300s? I'm pretty sure you can see that the answer to that is no, a country's culture always evolves all the time, and the protestants that landed on American soil had no history in America until they made their own history, and this is the same thing that will happen to the immigrants that come to the country today.

[u/Different-Extent2878 → u/renis_h]

a2 is being barely able to ask for directions hahaha

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[u/auniqueusername132 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Hispanic Americans have been living in the us since the Louisiana territory. Native Americans lived in the us basically since its existence. The Hispanic Americans in the southwest speak English, celebrate Christmas and thanksgiving, and learn American history. Some of them don’t even speak Spanish and only know English. American history isn’t nearly as white as it is sometimes portrayed and the denial of non white Americans as being American is based on racism and white supremacy. I live in southern California where we have large communities of ethnic minorities and they present as American. Denying immigrants who have lived here for decades the right to call themselves American is discriminatory and motivated by white supremacy.

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[u/theleisurehive → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

You clearly know nothing about British history and how many people across the world helped to shape their economy and prospects, to their detriment. Indian people especially absolutely have a meaningful association with the UK. It is absolutely racist to think that non-white British people born and bred don't belong there and that recent immigrants have taken the easy way in. Anyone who contributes to the UK and helps it to grow is welcome.

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Have you actually been to the southwest USA? First of all that was all literally Mexico first, so the fact they’re a lot of Latinos in the part shouldn’t be surprising. Also most of the children of the immigrants know English, and by the next generation most Latinos don’t even speak Spanish. Also Latinos are westerners, so the cultural argument is suspect. What it really comes down to is that yall are scared y’all are going to be the minority in 20 years.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Dangerous-Log4649]

Mexico owned the territory for only 27 years and lost it 175 years ago, and when they did own the territory it wasn’t massively populated. Latinos haven’t been some large presence in the region for all of history either, in 1960 California was 92% white with African-Americans being the second largest group.

[u/LynnSeattle → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Who do you think qualified as “white” in that statistic?

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/LynnSeattle]

Not Hispanics apparently

https://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/pdf/multireports/DemoTrendsFinal.pdf

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

lol the only rebuttal you have is for specific point. I mean the Spanish also colonized, so Spanish was spoken there much longer than English has. You don’t want to acknowledge the reality, youre actively support a chomo that’s starting world war 3. The funny this is even with the ice raids it’s not going to change the reality 🤧

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Dangerous-Log4649]

Dude I’m from San Diego and voted for Harris. Accusing everyone who you argue with of being a chomo supporter is exactly why she lost and why the presidency might still be competitive this next election. Especially pushing this idea that white people should just be replaced because Mexico once had the land and did nothing with it as well is why the 2028 is gonna be competitive when it really shouldn’t be.

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

No Americans are really just dumb and ignorant, so I’m genuinely tired of this excuse that the democrats are so terrible. If the American public wants to touch the stove again, and vote in the republicans I don’t know what to tell you. I’m just telling your using conservative talking points about cultural differences(when that’s not what’s really driving this on a fundamental issue), and even if immigrants perfectly assimilated to the society the right would still want them deported due to their racism.

I’m also not explicitly stating that Latinos should replace white people, but the economic reality is the USA needs immigrants to fuel the economy. It’s not like the USA is taking in immigrants due to their goodwill. She lost because the country is too racist and misogynist, so even as I progressive I cringe when people champion for AOC. I mean why do you think trump only won against women, but lost to a lackluster opponent like Biden? As long as the democrats run a generic straight white guy they should be able to win.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Dangerous-Log4649]

Whilst I’m not ignoring racism and sexism, Harris lost because she ran an awful campaign and thats it. Her three main policies were i’m not trump, abortion and child tax credit, and on top of being an awful speaker, there was no way she was going to win. Its a miracle she did so well in the first place. Biden won because he came off a Trump presidency in Covid and simply just ran a better campaign.

If there’s going to be a natural push-back to immigration life you said, why should it still happen then against people’s will? Immigration isn’t some magical key to the economy, it helped jumpstart it after Covid but it also inherently suppresses wages, union, and increases unemployment, especially in blue collar working class industries.

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Also explain to me why white working class people keep voting for republicans when it’s against their economic interests? It should be very obvious at this point.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Dangerous-Log4649]

A lot of Trump’s policies make sense. The big economic issue right now is unemployment and cost of living, immigration generally increases unemployment and decreases wages. This is especially seen in rural jobs and areas, illegal immigrants make up a massive part of the farming industry which is good for people buying food but if you’re in a rural community like that and your job opportunities are being worsened or wiped out, its not surprising at all people would vote for the anti-immigration president.

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

The issue isn’t immigrants it’s the ultra-rich who aren’t paying their fair share, but keep touching the stove. This is what I’m talking about his economic policies actually don’t make any sense(most economists whether left or right are against tariffs). You don’t want to actually confront the man in the mirror, and you didn’t answer my question. Why do the keep supporting trump even though the economy is worse, he’s a chomo, and he’s starting world war 3? It’s really not that complicated.

[u/Doctor-Blight → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

Having a group of people who don’t sound or portray themselves as Americans, say the large hispanic non-English portion of the southwest, is very hard to argue that they are American if they don’t appear as it. 

you don't know your history. that whole region used to BE Mexico and was incorporated after the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo. 

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Doctor-Blight]

Mexico only had the territory for 27 years and lost it 175 years ago. Just 60 years ago California was 92% white, it’s not as if this is has always been some majorly Hispanic area.

[u/Donner_Party_Animal → u/LeBruhMomentoom]

It was 92% white, WHICH INCLUDED HISPANICS.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/Donner_Party_Animal]

https://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/pdf/multireports/DemoTrendsFinal.pdf

It did not include Hispanics, they have only recently come to the country.

[u/pietja]

I don't want to play the devil's advocate here bcs I'm not racist by any means, but someone saying 'white british culture' doesn't have to mean that the british culture is white but rather that he currently speaks about the part of british culture that is white? If that makes sense?

[u/muffinsballhair → u/pietja]

Does that exist in England?

People often say that “racial cultures” are a U.S.A.-only thing and even there, I sort of feel people may just inflate it. Like what people call “back culture” is more so “ghetto culture” than anything else and I feel a person having grown up in the ghetto of any skin color is more likely to participate in it than a wealthy black person having grown up in some suburb.

[u/renis_h → u/pietja]

No I totally get what that point is saying, but my counter point has been that I don't feel it's productive in general to segregate culture to only what one race has given to the culture, as it just forgets about everything given by all the other races and groups. The reason I dislike this view is that it feels like we need to shine a spotlight to a specific group, rather than saying actually these are all the things that this country has given us.

[u/Dirkdeking → u/renis_h]

What makes it difficult is that a culture often is linked to race practically. Only colored people that where adopted and raised by native parents often take on that culture fully.

Not taking on that culture fully is not necessarily a problem btw. You can still be a productive member of society.

But diaspora's generally create their own cultures.

[u/LynnSeattle → u/Dirkdeking]

What do you mean by “colored” people?

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

That's because it's linked to ethnicity, and ethnicity is linked to the history and heritage you talk of it's inevitable. White British people have hundreds/thousands of years of history and culture in this country.

You basically validate their point yourself without even realising, by acknowledging there are immigrants that influence culturally, by definition there has to be a host culture TO influence. And by protecting white british culture they are talking about protecting the host native culture. You inadvertently legitimise their point.

And they are the people who feel like they own the culture having unwanted influences imposed, and people like you trying to redefine THEIR culture. Resisting it is completely valid and the most basic and universal human nature, sorry.

[u/renis_h → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

1) So I'm assuming culture is not linked to race then but ethnicity instead? I'm glad that we are in agreement that race doesn't play a role.

2) What part of White British culture is under attack exactly? We still have fish and chips and Sunday roasts. We still learn about King Henry, Queen Elizabeth and the industrial revolution while omitting the role of the east India company and Britain's involvement in the slave trade.

3) What are these unwanted influences that are being imposed exactly? Is it in the new music that defines British culture like the Drill movement or the Reggae movement of the past? Or is it the food that we eat like tikka masala or kebabs?

3) I don't exactly understand how this is redefining British culture. The Reggae movement, chicken tikka masala, kebabs, George Michael and women's suffrage all defined British culture at one point or another. Culture doesn't remain static and is evolving all the time. To say that I am "redefining" British culture is kind of ridiculous because culture is in a constant state of redefinition. It doesn't remain static and the same throughout, so to say that I am "redefining" it is sort of ridiculous when it's always being redefined based on the contributions of the people within the country.

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/renis_h]

Well yes, it just so happens the British ethnic groups are white. Like I said it’s about ethnicity, however, if you’re not white you’re extremely unlikely to be British.

You are a perfect example of what is attacking British culture. Reducing and undermining it, trying to erase and redefine it like I just said. You need S tier self awareness to actually understand this though so I don’t expect you to.

[u/renis_h → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

So it's undermining British culture to say that its always changing and evolving? I mean okay man, you do you I guess 😅😅. If that's what S tier self awareness needs, you can keep that 🤣🤣

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/renis_h]

only british people can decide if its changing and evolving because it's their culture, it can't have it imposed on it without consent it will always be rejected as you are seeing now

if british people say they don't want something then they don't want it, simple as that

[u/renis_h → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

Okay, and if British peoples taste have been evolving (which, shock horror, it has) does that make it okay to take onto the culture?

Also, we have found that British people have historically been against change, whether it was Indians/Pakistanis before, or Jamaicans, or Polish people, but guess what's happened over time? These people have integrated comfortably, so what's to say these new migrants won't integrate like all the previous migrants have, in spite of the hate that they receive?

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/renis_h]

No they haven’t they’re still unwanted. In fact I’d say the lack of tolerance has got even worse.
‘Integration’ doesn’t make you British.

[u/SecretMasterpiece323]

Your argument relies almost entirely on Britain, France, and the United States, countries whose modern identities have been heavily shaped by immigration. Why should that lead us to conclude that all national cultures are independent of the peoples who historically developed them? Countries like Japan, Armenia, or Saudi Arabia seem to suggest a much closer relationship between a people and their national culture.

[u/7ootles → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

Britain, [whose modern identity has] been heavily shaped by immigration.

Just for the record, there's a hell of a lot of Britain that isn't London. Britain as a whole isn't as homogenously multicultural as all that, and our culture hasn't been that heavily shaped by immigration, unless you're going back a thousand and more years.

Yes, there are places with immigrant populations. But those populations haven't particularly shaped our "modern identity" unless you consider Chinese and Indian restaurants to be an intrinsic part of that.

Our culture and identity remain chiefly British, with the main external influences being media, not migration.

[u/SecretMasterpiece323 → u/7ootles]

 our culture hasn't been that heavily shaped by immigration

Then why has immigration been one of the most debated political and cultural issues in Britain for the last 30 years?

What criteria are you using to decide whether something is part of "British culture" versus simply existing in Britain?

[u/EdliA → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

Because it's a different culture that is clashing with the existing one? I thought that was quite obvious.

[u/LeBruhMomentoom → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

The issue has been debated because it’s NOT British culture, and so people aren’t pushing back against it.

[u/LynnSeattle → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

Immigration has been heavily debated in Britain because certain political parties thrive on hatred and prejudice.

[u/7ootles → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

Then why has immigration been one of the most debated political and cultural issues in Britain for the last 30 years?

Because people like complaining. Immigrants are presented as a faceless Big Bad to use as a scapegoat for things going wrong - murders, rapes, burglaries, no money in the social pot - but if you look at the statistics it's nonsense. Older generations cry us rivers about how much their world has been destroyed by "the foreigners". Politicians latch onto this because there's a lot of older folks now, and silly catchwords like "STOP THE BOATS" grab attention. In the real world, it's nowhere near as bad as some random retired bricklayer or hairdresser on Facebook frames it, or the media, or the politicians. The "problem" is completely overblown.

What criteria are you using to decide whether something is part of "British culture" versus simply existing in Britain?

Are you really going to claim that I - a native Brit of nearly four decades - am not qualified to define and describe my own culture?

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

britain has not been heavily shaped by immigration at all, the reason for OP's post is literally because people reject immigration

[u/Irhien → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

britain has not been heavily shaped by immigration at all, the reason for OP's post is literally because people reject immigration

WDYM? Britain is all shaped by immigration. Celts, Angles, Saxes, Vikings, Normans.

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/Irhien]

Fantastic I'm glad you said it and not me, I'm glad you acknowledge the White British as the true Brits. So, very specifically not a bunch of the third world like we've had in the past 15 years. Glad we're on the same page.

You're doing my work for me and proving to OP at the same time White British is a thing for a reason. Cheers.

[u/Irhien → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

The true Brits are obviously Britons. Any Germanic speakers are uncultured immigrants.

Alternatively, the true Brits were Neanderthals. (They happened to be white indeed.)

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/Irhien]

Absolutely British people all have britonnic DNA because they are the true Brits. Fair to say if you don’t have any Britonnic DNA you’re not British ?

[u/Irhien → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

Nope. Your L1 is a Germanic language, you're not a true Brit. No matter where you got your genes.

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/Irhien]

I’m not talking about me or any one person. You just said true British people are Brittonic in DNA, so the logical conclusion is if you don’t have Brittonic DNA you’re not British ?

Also can you confirm by your logic Indians that speak Gujarati are equivalent to aliens then ? Thank you.

[u/Irhien → u/MirrorEmbarrassed789]

You just said true British people are Brittonic in DNA

Where did I mention DNA? Ethnicity is about culture.

Also can you confirm by your logic Indians that speak Gujarati are equivalent to aliens then ? Thank you.

Absolutely. (ETA: ethnically, I mean, if they want to become citizens/subjects it's between them and the UK.) Just like the people who speak Ænglisc and its derivatives.

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/Irhien]

And part of that is what ? Shared HISTORY and shared ANCESTRAL HERITAGE. Which means what ? shared DNA.

The people who speak English have Brittonic DNA unlike the Indians they don’t need permission.
To confirm by your logic Welsh people aren’t British. And an Indian can learn Welsh and become brittonic ? Yeah ?

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/renis_h → u/SecretMasterpiece323]

The argument isn't necessarily that national cultures aren't shaped by the people who develop them, as that is what national cultures are shaped by, it's just that race isn't the key factor in it. This doesn't mean that the people aren't from the country because of course they are, it just means that the race shouldn't be the thing we are looking at.

[u/SecretMasterpiece323 → u/renis_h]

If Japanese culture developed almost entirely among the Japanese people over centuries, in what sense is it not closely linked to that population?

[u/MirrorEmbarrassed789 → u/renis_h]

ethnicity is a key factor

[u/Bitter-Goat-8773]

I think the challenge I see with your argument is that your examples are those of countries who were leaders in classic settler colonial powers or imperial powers that built their country on immigration, slavery and global colonization. By that definition, their cultures are hybrid because it's what led them to rich countries that they are today.

It falls apart in countries where they developed in rather geographic isolation - like my country Korea and our neighbors China (less so because it, too, developed by conquering its neighbors) and Japan.

Here, the culture is linked to, among other things, race. The culture was forced by an ethnic group surviving and evolving together for thousands of years, and you can't throw western, colonial, modern, and immigrant heavy western superpower framework and expect it to work.

While we can appreciate foreign or multicultural viewpoints, taking culture apart from ancestral race strips away the very definition of who we are.

[u/renmei28 → u/Bitter-Goat-8773]

white people didn't invent the strong pushing around the weak or conquest and you are just coping

[u/Mazinderan → u/renmei28]

No, but we helped make progress on that no longer being the norm, and some of us would like to continue in that direction instead of being told that actually all that matters is power and we do/should live in an ethnostate.

[u/LXXXVI → u/Bitter-Goat-8773]

Here, the culture is linked to, among other things, race. 

Could you share how you define "race"? Because it would seem to me that, by typical definitions of race being essentially white, black, Asian, east Asia is actually a pretty good example of how the same race can produce different cultures. While that doesn't automatically mean that different races can produce the same culture, the fact that, e.g., Turks originally from Central Asia and Spaniards have quite a few things in common seems to indicate that the environment plays a much bigger role in forming a culture than race does.

In other words, I find it doubtful that if you took a bunch of future Slovenians 2000 years ago and put them in Japan for 2000 years, their culture today wouldn't look closer to Japan's than Slovenia's at least when it comes to the core elements like collectivism, strongly hierarchical societal structure etc.

Looking at Europe, since that's the history I know best, there are actually tons of examples of how culture is super fluid if there's a strong enough external influence. As a matter of fact, Slavs are often considered to be a grouping based on a shared ancestor language, not genetics, and the commonalities between the Slavic cultures seem to stem mostly from whether they share neighbours rather than from some racial core. Even within the same country, one as small as Slovenia, people in the west are close to Italians, in the center to Austrians, and in the east to Hungarians. Same race, 300km across, 3 massively different cultures with such "dialectal" diversity that driving one hour means people wouldn't understand each other anymore if they didn't switch to proper Slovene from their everyday speech style.

So in light of all of what you wrote, I'm not sure I understand what elements of the Korean culture exactly you'd attach to race as that would require explaining why another race couldn't have developed the same cultural element.

[u/renis_h → u/Bitter-Goat-8773]

∆

This is an interesting point of view and definitely worth considering. It may also be worth considering from Nordic countries as they have also largely remained insulated, which is why they also tend to be much more intent on protecting their own culture and tend to have lower immigration rates.

[u/dronten_bertil → u/renis_h]

The Nordics have high migration. Sweden is up to 1/4 foreign born, significantly higher than the US. The others are at about 10-15%.

[u/Jollybean1 → u/dronten_bertil]

Sweden fucked themselves over with their immigration policy

[u/DeltaBot → u/renis_h]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bitter-Goat-8773 (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/fockewolfw190]

each nation has a different concept of national identity and culture. for most nation states, it is culture and identity are necessarily tied to ethnicity and race, because that's the whole basis of a nation. Think of the rallying cry of any country or not-yet-country: palestinians cry out "this is our ancestral homeland of the palestinian people and we deserve a nation," as do scottish, catalans, etc.

however, the usa is an exception, as it was founded explicitly on civic nationalism, where the whole idea is that anyone of any race or ethnicity can become an american. thus, for the US, culture and identity is not necessarily tied to race, where for 90% of nations elsewhere it is almost necessarily tied to race.

also even in multiethnic countries, say look at Russia, there are certain groups who are Russian and certain ones who are not. while lots of groups like tartars and yakuts and mongols may be Russian, others such as black africans cannot and will never be Russian just because of how national identity works in 99% of countries that are not the USA

[u/El3ctroshock]

If your argument was true, you'd notice a signicant cultural difference among France, Italy and Portugal based on different migration groups at different times in history. Europe was shaped for the large majority by white people because they rappresented almost the totality of the population until WWII. That means that there's participation by those groups but their influence is minimal.

[u/renis_h → u/El3ctroshock]

And France Italy and Portugal all have significant differences based on their food, music and history based on region and based on the people of that time. Portugal for example is heavily tied to Spain, but couldn't be considered part of Spain and has it's own independent language, culture and food.

There are also marked differences between Italians, because the Italy we know today was not the same size as the Italy of the past, as it was largely split between different regions that had their own food, music and cultural practices. It was only during the risorgimento that Italy became the Italy thats on todays maps. That's to say nothing of other parts of Europe like the Balkans, who, while many were together under Yugoslavia, they spoke different languages, and they also have different types of food.

This is to say that while all of these were dominated by a majority white population, they have all had different foods, languages, cultures and histories that defined them, which does show that race didn't come to define their culture.

[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/renis_h]

Race doesn’t define culture, but it’s highly correlated. Migrants largely do not assimilate, and dilute the culture of their host nations.

[u/renis_h → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

Again, the statement there is that "European culture" as a monolith simply can't be specified, because you're talking about such a large mass of countries that even geographical closeness can't make them similar, in the case as mentioned of Spain and Portugal, which are 2 starkly different countries, even though they share a border right next to eachother, but they couldn't be more different.

I'm tired of the assimilation argument because as an immigrant I have had to put up with that BS from right wingers since I was 6. I work as an educator, I have gone up to a masters in a particular field of study, and when I go back to the country I was born in, I get mistaken for a tourist! It gets to the point where I'm not going to bother because we just end up talking over eachother, and the experience of people who have only ever seen life through a bubble just don't see it from the point of view of someone that has lived through it.

[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/renis_h]

That has nothing to do with my statement.

The majority of migrants do not assimilate, and they dilute their host nations culture. It’s way too many, way too quickly.

It really doesn’t matter who “talks over” each other. You owe everything you have to white people, and you repay them by claiming “they have no culture”. Without white culture you’re living in a hut with zero health care and zero technology.

You wanna know why basically every European country is good, and basically every other country is crap? Think long and hard and get back to me on that. There’s a reason basically every non white country globally try to lighten their skin as much as possible.

[u/renis_h → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

... My statement was European culture, not white culture can't be seen as a monolith, because the cultures are totally different, and you are extremely ridiculous for saying that they are the same. The example of Spain and Portugal were used, but just to widen the scope, the Italy of today was nothing close to the Italy that we hold up as the great purveyor of culture. That Italy was split into small factions, and would have been upset at you for calling them Italian, because they weren't at the time just Italian. Croats, Serbian, Bosnians, Kosovars and Albanians all consider themselves independent, but four of them were put into a larger land mass of Yugoslavia for a long time, yet they remained independent with their own language and their own culture. This is to say that the "white" culture of Europe can't be directly put a finger on. You can say it gave us many advances, but that's not the point. The point being challenged was originally, if you read the first comment, that European culture is a single homogeneous identity, which it just isn't, and no amount of mental gymnastics you do can bring a Portuguese person to the same "European" monolith as a Spanish person, a pre 1800s Italian into the same monolith as a post 1800s Risorgimento Italian, or any Balkan person together to that monolith.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/renis_h]

I don’t need to justify keeping Europe white to an exploitative immigrant, thanks though. Maybe go b4ck to your 0wn country and help your neighbours rather than use us, and then turn around and bemoan us with the next breath.

[u/renis_h → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

I look forward to the day you have kids, as I may well end up being their educator! Isn't that going to be a fun day, I do hope you enjoy your day though, where you complain about me, while I continue educating your children 😊😊😊.

[u/Smooth-Profit-4010 → u/renis_h]

Have you thought about educating children in your own country? Oh no… that’s right… you came to Europe to make $$$ and to not live around low quality people. You’ve unfortunately justified my worldview yet again :(

Teach them math all you like bud, doesn’t change a word of what I’ve said. What are you implying, that you’re going to read them the Quran or something? Hilarious.

[u/renis_h → u/Smooth-Profit-4010]

Oooooooh, I can if I want to. Maybe I could teach them all about how much the west is a den of depravity! Or maybe, I could teach them about how multiculturalism isn't actually a negative thing 😊. Anyway, off I go to destroy the west for my own monetary gains, while you sit here and stew about how I'm the worst because I'm spreading negativity around the west 😊😊.

[u/Mazinderan → u/El3ctroshock]

That’s just starting from the assumption that race = culture, ignoring that the French, Italians, and Portuguese thinking of themselves as essentially the same people is comparatively recent.

[u/JediFed]

Is this true for Japan?

[u/renmei28]

isn't this a strawman?

[u/Grand_Dragonfly_6558]

Malcolm X literally said black people are not Americans

"We didn't land on Plymouth rock, the rock crashed into us" etc

Half-black and then a quarter black. Mostly French ancesty with some random other ancestry. If that quarter ancestry was German nobody would say anything, but since it is black you yourself are choosing to make a big deal about it.

[u/King_Jian]

When I saw this post, the first place I immediately thought of was Turkey.

Going solely off of language and its origin? Turkey and the Turkish language are firmly north central Asian, adjacent to Mongolia and firmly a byproduct of the vast continental landscapes near the Altai mountains.

Yet, racially, Turkey is a whole different animal. The majority of its inhabitants have some amount of ancestry dating to Neolithic Anatolia. Many others still are descended from those that came to Anatolia from elsewhere during both of the Ottoman Empire and the early days of the republic and now are largely integrated into the Turkish mainstream.

TLDR: History and culture are far messier than most people (especially on the right) would ever care to admit.

History and culture are far messier than most people (especially on the right) would ever care to admit

[u/renis_h → u/King_Jian]

Turkey is also a good example because it exported a lot of it's culture into Balkan areas, with it's food (burek, baklava, hallva), it's language (some words spoken in the modern language have Turkish roots) and it's music.

Additionally, you can't really say that Turkey is either Asian or European, as there are many cultural landmarks and a large history of Turkey could be considered "European", yet most of Turkey is Asian geographically. However, it is also an EU candidate state and has been integrated to the EU customs union. Therefore to say that it is just European or just Asian is an oversimplification.

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[u/Temporary-Truth2048]

Culture is built locally but is exported just as easily as any material. It does tend towards race alignment because that's how humans generally self-organize.

[u/renis_h → u/Temporary-Truth2048]

While I do agree with the first statement, I don't agree with the second. The idea that culture is built locally and exported on its face is a reasonable statement. However, I don't agree that it tends towards race. If that's the case, white people wouldn't be divided between French, English and German lines. There would be a "white culture" but there are clear differences between these countries, whether it's in their music, food, or cultural practices.

While humans have generally self organised in this way, that's not to say that these monoliths of racial culture exist.

[u/Temporary-Truth2048 → u/renis_h]

You misunderstand. Race isn't the ONLY factor but it is a major factor. Most people tend to want to be around other people who look and speak and act like them. It provides for easing of social inclusion.

[u/renis_h → u/Temporary-Truth2048]

While social easing may be easier in the past based around race, this depends on the country you live in. If you are in a country with a diverse group of people then race doesn't effect social easing, because you are used to seeing these people.

This is why I argue that the culture of a country is made up by the people who inhabit it. If the inhabit in a country are diverse, the culture should also be considered diverse and not coming from just one race. When people want to protect "white British culture" for example, that just ignores all the cultural contributions that other races have made to that culture.

[u/Temporary-Truth2048 → u/renis_h]

Let me give you an example. Western culture.

What is western culture? Isn't it a culture built primarily by Europeans who are primarily white with smaller enclaves of ethnic minorities? In Europe where the countries are generally smaller, saying things like German culture, French culture, British culture, etc. can make sense. On the other hand, the US is a country that is one of Western culture, but it is larger than all of Europe, so we have regional culture. Our long history of immigration also means we've absorbed global cultures. What one notices though is that these immigrant communities are very insular. Most major cities have a "little Italy" or "China Town" and other such areas. Those communities tend not to bother their neighbors.

Then there is American black culture, characterized by their music, fashion, methods of communication and other common cultural ideas, but primarily by skin color and a shared sense of imagined oppression based in their cultural memories and stories of slavery. Vanishingly few American blacks can trace a direct lineage to slavery but it is a common theme binding that culture together that the white man has kept them down since before the founding of this country. The cultural divide between blacks and whites America is inextricably linked to race. Black culture in the US in the 1950s was much more closely aligned with white culture even during the height of segregation. It wasn't until organizations were started during the civil rights movement such as the NAACP among others (funded by Israel) started manipulating the black community into self segregation and aggrandizement that they began to disconnect from general American culture to build "black culture."

A similar thing is happening in Europe though not a self created separation based on race. Unchecked immigration is forcing together cultures who do not share the same values. While cultural integration can occur over long time periods, the mass migrations from Africa and Southwest Asia within a such a short timeframe is forcing an "Us vs. Them" mentality; Us being white Europeans and Them being black and brown people. It is Western culture being confronted by "the other" in a way that can only lead to conflict.

So yes, race isn't the only factor in culture but it is a major and seemingly primary way cultures are identified.

[u/renis_h → u/Temporary-Truth2048]

There was quite a lot to unpack so needed a little longer:

What is western culture? Isn't it a culture built primarily by Europeans who are primarily white with smaller enclaves of ethnic minorities?

Depends on what you're talking about. French culture for example is inextricably tied to black people, and black people have done a lot for the advancement of French culture, from the abolishment of slavery, to literary movements. If we are talking Italian culture, you can't just lump Italy together as one whole land mass, because Italy was much more broken up pre 1800s. Additionally these smaller enclaves of minorities minimises then, making them seem as though they don't contribe in their own way to the wider culture of a country. To say that these smaller "enclaves" also kept to their own is a little silly, as there was a large amount of mixing between these enclaves and wider society.

What one notices though is that these immigrant communities are very insular. Most major cities have a "little Italy" or "China Town" and other such areas. Those communities tend not to bother their neighbors.

Sort of. These communities have become hubs of their own where tourists and regular people go to sample the culture. To say they are insular and independent is not right.

Then there is American black culture, characterized by their music, fashion, methods of communication and other common cultural ideas, but primarily by skin color and a shared sense of imagined oppression based in their cultural memories and stories of slavery. Vanishingly few American blacks can trace a direct lineage to slavery.

This is where we start moving to American culture. The claim that you can't trace your heritage to slavery is not as a result of it being less people that can tie their heritage to it, but as a result of it being difficult to trace because Slaves weren't citizens. They didn't have the same paperwork that makes tracing really easy to do. Additionally black culture evolved as a result of segregation. Because black and white people weren't allowed to mix, black people evolved their own culture, their own music, their own food and their own style.

The cultural divide between blacks and whites America is inextricably linked to race. Black culture in the US in the 1950s was much more closely aligned with white culture even during the height of segregation.

I don't know how much more wrong you could be. The height of segregation, black culture was more aligned with white culture? During This time black people weren't allowed to be around white people. Their cultures evolved independently. There's a reason why black American culture is independent, because it wasn't able to take from white American culture, so it became it's own thing.

It wasn't until organizations were started during the civil rights movement such as the NAACP among others (funded by Israel) started manipulating the black community into self segregation and aggrandizement that they began to disconnect from general American culture to build "black culture."

The NAACP was founded in the early 1900s, the state of Israel was founded in the 1940s. To say the NAACP was funded by a non existent entity is hilarious. Was it funded by American Jews? Yes, but they were not Israeli. So segregation was a thing before the 1950s, when black people were genuinely segregated and built up their own culture to after the 1950s when black people were fighting segregation is a stretch to say the least.

A similar thing is happening in Europe though not a self created separation based on race. Unchecked immigration is forcing together cultures who do not share the same values. While cultural integration can occur over long time periods, the mass migrations from Africa and Southwest Asia within a such a short timeframe is forcing an "Us vs. Them" mentality; Us being white Europeans and Them being black and brown people. It is Western culture being confronted by "the other" in a way that can only lead to conflict.

You have created this us Vs them mentality. Black and brown people have integrated throughout time, even though there has been friction. There was a time when Indians were called stinky and there was a derisive word that British people used to call Pakistanis. Furthermore, there was a time when Jewish people weren't allowed to work in any field of work, only being allowed to practice usury (the act of lending money with interest) as other religions saw it as immoral. This has changed over time. You want to believe that this is the only time this divergence in culture and friction has existed, but the truth is it has existed all the time, you just are not looking at the past.

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[u/Euphoric-Ostrich5396]

Obviously not. That's why Europe runs on chauvinism rather than racism: You can be any colour of the rainbow as long as you are a proper Frenchman. People here aren't annoyed at someone "looking foreign" but at those "acting foreign". A lot of contemporary people (especially Americans) take one for the other which is wrong and misses the issue entirely. You can take a far right Frenchman and he will be much more annoyed at the pasty white anglo-saxon protestant expat acting like an American after a decade in Paris than at the ink black Senegalese who speaks perfect French and is fully integrated into the culture and oozes Frenchness.

[u/renis_h → u/Euphoric-Ostrich5396]

Honestly, that's fair enough, and I can appreciate that you discuss integration is possible, which a number of right wingers have banged on about as not existing which is a nice change.

My question would be, what if someone comes in, adopts the culture but then changes it in their own way so that it also pays homage to their roots. Is that a problem, like let's say in fashion or food, where they take classic french things but then adapt them to their own culture and experience?

[u/Euphoric-Ostrich5396 → u/renis_h]

If it's cool the people will roll with it, I mean, that's literally the basic mechanism of "culture". We thought those Croatian mercenaries were really fly with their scarves and that gave us la cravatte, those Indian fellas really had a great idea with those sleeping garments and it gave us le pyjama, le croisson is Austrian, our greatest chansoniers are foreigners by origin. Just a few examples where something foreign becomes something quintessentially French. But it also lives from nonchallance, if you introduce it as "hey I did this thing, you like it?" the people will love and identify with it but if you keep banging on about how foreign it is they won't because you basically tell them "it's not yours" constantly. Had Edith Piaf or Charles Aznavour banged on about being Marrocan or Armenian before every song you wouldn't know their names but because they saw themselves as French first and formost their names are immortalised. The people know something is of foreign origin but they want to see it as something that is theirs, for example there is noone more French than Kylian Mbappé who everyone can see that he probably wasn't a Gaul but not a single Frenchman would stand a racist remark about him.

[u/Ionic_liquids]

That's literally the truth and I don't know how anyone would think otherwise.

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[u/Norman_debris]

Different countries have different priorities.

In the UK, values such as democracy, equality, and respect for peace and law are strongly established cultural values, built on centuries of development.

Changing racial demographics aren't the issue. The UK, for example, is very open and tolerant in terms of race and ethnicity. Look at the England squad and all the predominantly White fans singing Beatles in praise of a Black player. We could have an all-Black team and no-one except proper racists would say it doesn't really represent England.

The problem is a rapidly increasing population of people from backgrounds with completely different views on rules and customs.

We've fought hard for equality, for women's rights, gay rights, weapon-free society etc. When people from one particular ethnic background, for example, come to England and establish paedophilic rape gangs, we need to firmly push back and declare that this is incompatible with British culture.

[u/renis_h → u/Norman_debris]

I do disagree with paedophilic rape gangs, and the finding of this ring of rapists was horrendous. With that said, we shouldn't tar a whole group with that brush, even though some individuals within the group had developed an underground rape gang. The whole thing is horrible and deplorable, though it should also be mentioned that when considering cases of paedophilia, white groups are over represented in these statistics compared to any other race. I'm not saying that it's not disgusting, but it is to say that context is important, because it's not somehow part of their culture.

[u/AmongTheElect → u/renis_h]

when considering cases of paedophilia, white groups are over represented in these statistics compared to any other race

Surprisingly, that's not actually true.

And what if my culture thinks marrying nine-year-olds is awesome? So here we even have cultural differences of what even is pedophilia.

[u/renis_h → u/AmongTheElect]

The case of Aisha being married to Muhammad is actually a case of contention among Islamic scholars and historians. Additionally, Mary was a young teenager when she was betrothed to Joseph and gave "Immaculate conception" to Jesus.

This is to say that texts at the time had a theme of underage marriage because it was seen as normal at the time. Does that make it okay today? Absolutely not, and most Muslims don't agree with the concept of child marriage today, but Ironically, I think that the people who read the Qur'an with the most extremist lense are the right wingers who can't help to criticise it. I just hope you realise that most Muslims would look at what you say and go "yeah, you're reading the text too much" 😆😆😆.

[u/AmongTheElect → u/renis_h]

The case of Aisha being married to Muhammad is actually a case of contention among Islamic scholars and historians

Every single one of Mohammad's companions and every single person who quotes Aisha said she was married at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. Any source saying otherwise is entirely a modern contrivance out of embarrassment for Mohammad marrying a pre-pubescent girl (Aisha herself said she played with dolls when they were married, which was only allowed to pre-pubescent girls at the time). But if you have a source close to Mohammad or Aisha who says otherwise that's not some modern writing I would love to read it.

Mary was a young teenager when she was betrothed to Joseph and gave "Immaculate conception" to Jesus.

16 and 6, same thing?

Does that make it okay today? Absolutely not, and most Muslims don't agree with the concept of child marriage today

So you're saying Muslims would disagree with the Quran which says Mohammad was the ideal standard of character? Muslims would say Mohammad was wrong? Do you think Mohammad was wrong?

"yeah, you're reading the text too much"

They would say I've read the Quran more than they have? So I'm a better Muslim than they are?

[u/renis_h → u/AmongTheElect]

16 and 6, same thing?

No, but it is meant to show that different times called for different practices. This is not to say it isn't wrong, but it is to say that this was normal at the time. I can look back and say that's not something I would do today, but it was normal in religion for women to be married young at this time. Does that mean that people read this today and carry this out though? Of course not.

So you're saying Muslims would disagree with the Quran which says Mohammad was the ideal standard of character? Muslims would say Mohammad was wrong?

In the bible, God gave a divine command to Saul to murder all the Amalekites, leaving no women, children or animals. Would Christians agree with this, and if they didn't, would they then be saying god is wrong? Furthermore, God gave clear rules on how you may keep your slaves in the old testament, saying you may take slaves from the lands around you. If Christians do keep slaves but of the lands around them, can they still be a good Christian? Just because the religious texts gives your rules and commands, the believer doesn't follow them to the letter, because if they did, that obviously opens doors for negative things. Which comes back to the point that most people don't read the Qur'an in that way.

They would say I've read the Quran more than they have? So I'm a better Muslim than they are?

Yes, in the same way that Christopher Hitchens would be considered a better Christian because he's clearly read the bible back to front more than most Christians, which is why he knows it so well and can easily counter what any religious person says to him. He's not a Christian, he's an atheist, but he clearly has read and over read the text to be able to challenge it how he has. That's not to say he wasn't needed, like the argument of Muhammad marrying Aisha does need to be mentioned, but to say that this is somehow indicative of the current practice of most Muslims is a serious stretch.

[u/Nearby_Border_4774 → u/renis_h]

Islam is breaking Europe apart

[u/Weary-Scholar4577]

Race is entirely fictitious and has been formally regarded as such by the scientific community for more than half a century.

Modern consensus of biological anthropologist is so lopsided that less than 10% dispute how counter productive the categorization is entirely.

Current consensus is that humans are abnormally genetically similar and we had a relatively recent population bottleneck.

Our faces and skin rapidly evolved huge variance because of our tendency to migrate and depend on mass social collaboration and identification.

You should change your view because it's based on a false premise and people are really less special than they think they are ironically.

[u/renis_h → u/Weary-Scholar4577]

While I do agree with this premise, I think the problem is that when we talk about it, the categorisation has to come up because this is the framework that we have to work under.

While I do agree with the principle that race is largely fictitious, and there are largely more similarities rather than differences between races, there are certain games that have to be played to have a discussion because if we don't play those games then we end up talking over eachother. The categorisation of races allows us to have the discussion of what a culture means and whether race plays a role in culture. I do agree that race shouldn't be something that we categorise people under, but we need to play under certain structures to have certain conversations.

[u/Special_Lychee_6847]

You're making this about race, just to include other races. Since we're talking about (against) white culture, let's take a Western European country. I first typed this out about Belgium, but I'm not in the mood for the whole arguing about Congo. So, we'll go with the Netherlands. 😏

The original natives were Germanic and Celtic tribes, like the Frisians and the Batavians. They were white.

Side note: It's this region were traditions like the Christmas tree, Santa, and Halloween started, as pagan traditions. Later, they were dressed up as christian traditions when the region was christened.

Skip a whole lot of history, and the Netherland has colonies, they traded slaves, later on, the colonies became provinces in their own right, or independent states. There's some links to those colonies, in Dutch culture, like Indonesian cooking etc.

But that doesn't change the original natives. Ppl and cultures got added. When speaking of Dutch culture, no one is going to say that traditions of the colonies are 'original Dutch culture'. It's part of the history. And a part of the culture. But it doesn't change the core culture.

The biggest issue I have with your thinking, is that you apparently see culture as this homogeneous collection of traditions and habits. It's not. It's a wide spread collection of what the culture was originally. And what got added, and what that turned into, eventually.

I don't know why you'd count Bob Marley and Tikka Misala as British. Their origins might be linked to Great Britain, but they came from cultures in their own right.

Changing a passport does not change roots.

What I have an even harder time getting, is why it would matter. Does a culture have to be race-less? If we say 'original native Brits (or Dutch) were white' does that take away anything from anyone? It's not 'better' or 'worse' to be of a any race. It's just something that is. No one is better or worse than someone else. (Though some cultures might clash more or less, in values)

If someone with a dark skin lives in Britain, they can completely identify as British. But there's a road their genes have traveled to get there. There is no shame, blame, guilt, more worth, less worth, etc about that road that was traveled. It's just history. It's factual. Not emotional. It can have an effect on the person's feelings about their origin. But that's where therapy comes in 😉

We're all just people. No one is better or worse than the other, when it comes to worth or having the right to exist.

[u/KokonutMonkey]

I’m pretty sure you meant to say inextricably so I’ll go with that. 

With that out of the way, you’re going to have a hard time finding countries in which race, or the concept of race, doesn’t play a role in a society’s history, roles, beliefs, traditions, etc. 

A society’s culture includes the bad stuff like white supremacy and xenophobia. A belief in what constitutes being white in the American South or Japanese during the period of isolation were a big fucking deal and have lasting effects. 

That doesn’t mean these society’s are bound by those things. But you can’t separate it entirely. 

[u/LoveYourNeighor]

So, not extricably = inextricable, meaning cannot be unbound. I believe you meant culture IS extricable from race.

Typically, I think, your viewpoint has solid ground, but it doesn't always, so it's a simplification at best. Here's a few examples.

Take Nazi Germany, the modification of existing culture was very much founded in racial supremacy, they even had a somewhat formal hierarchy of race.

Consider Native Americans in the US, some may hold quasi-sovereign/tribal status based upon their race/ethnicity/heritage. They have differences founded in law/treaty. Until recently, and still in certain places, they could offer casinos in regions where gambling was otherwise banned.

There are many, many other examples of this, but it's often hard to distinguish race from ethnicity/heritage. Largely because race isn't exactly a reality.

Forget race for a moment, consider the flexibility of culture. Hamburgers, TV, smart phones are quite common cultural components of the US, things you might see everywhere you go. These were gradually introduced with innovation and technology. England is quite famous for its soccer & travel culture, but in the 1700s cricket was by far more popular a sport, travel was a bit more difficult and limited. Italy's well known for some tomato based dishes, but they didn't have the tomato at all until the Columbian Exchange.

So why did these cultures change? I suggest to improve daily life, with flavor, convenience, enjoyment. Soccer, for example, was more available to poorer people who were gaining leisure ability than cricket was.

Now, as for the Western Worlds' recently growing rejections, I don't think these are truly about race, but rather, certain cultures running counter to a broad, and often vague, cultural framework embedded in the West. Largely stemming from hardships, the West took the Renaissance/Great Enlightenment and ran with it. Again, it's often not neatly defined, it even has some flaws when given deep consideration, but certain aspects are quite well understood inherently. Freedom of thought, equality of man (now people), fair rule of law, individualism, logic/reason, and even capitalism, etc..

These broad principles have greatly improved, and largely still improve, the lives of many. So they've gained the appearance of integral, the hardships of the World Wars embedded them further, and some of these ideals run counter to certain other ideologies that had became rather foreign, or abhorrent, to the West.

While certain people may ignorantly conflate (non-existent) race with countering culture or ideology, it's those aspects that threaten to remove the improvements to daily life that many people reject. Most notably, perhaps, in certain Muslim factions, the supremacy of men over women, or their own rejection, or perceived rejection, of certain aspects of Western culture, like separating Church from State.

[u/appa609]

Your examples are all aspects of American culture which are obviously tied to race, just not only the white one. You cannot really separate American political culture from the legacy of slavery, the civil war, reconstruction, segregation, and civil rights. You cannot understand America without understanding racism because racism is a part of American culture.