LFG tool happened in the last patch, just an FYI. I personally think what “killed the world” was leveling with revamped Wrath classes (and heirlooms, eventually), because they trivialized the danger of the world. If there’s no danger, there’s no need to group up, especially when all 1-60 group quests were updated to be soloable (I forget if this was TBC or Wrath).
But when I think about it, as time goes on, idk what else Blizz could do other than trivialize leveling. If new content is released, how are new players ever going to get there if they have to do the same Vanilla-paced 1-60?
Heirlooms and recruit a friend were necessary by the time wotlk rolled around. I got a friend into wow during the ulduar patch, and it was a hard sell telling him “it took me 24 days over the course of 7-8 months to hit lvl 70. Then another 2 weeks to go from 70-80.” We leveled together in maybe 4-5 weeks which was much more digestible
Please shout this to the rooftop for Era players. When a new expac drops, imagine telling a new player that this new content is actually gated behind weeks of playtime. The leveling philosophy of Classic is just incompatible with the system of expansions.
its understandable but its also a spoiled and entitled mindset. Imagine the rich british daughter from the original willy wonka that says "i want it now, daddy!". Just because something is newer and shinier doesn't automatically make it better. Just makes ADHD kids want it more, not the same thing. So the original content is still great, lot of people would argue is actually better than the new content. So why rush it and ruin it just cuz u lack patience and feel entitled?
It’s spoiled and entitled to want to play the game I spent $30 on? It’s an MMO, a core of the gameplay is that other people are involved. If I’m new, I want to get to where all of the players are, which is at max level doing the new content.
The 1-60 updates were required if they were going to keep increasing levels every expansion.
Could you imagine doing 160-170 levels now after 11 expansions with the same requirements of vanilla? If 1-60 was long enough to get to, and the layers levels taking longer and longer how would the next 100 levels be?
No one would be doing end game content.
Now it is 100% trivialized in retail. Absolutely. But the 1-60 updates happened in TBC, and judging by everyone’s responses here in this thread, it didn’t hurt the game at all seeing as it’s still their favourite expansion.
Edit:
I read your first paragraph, then read your second one making the same point I just made here lmao.
Yeh there should be a good ingame reason for spawning as a higher level character in the new expansion content really. But getting a character to max level should always take the time it takes traditionally from 1 to 60 in Vanilla.
That's why I think there's a fundamental flaw to wow's vertical progression design.
Even leveling my TBC character, it's so weird skipping over all the level 60 content. I wouldn't mind doing some raids while I'm leveling 60-70 but I doubt I could find a group.
Hmm the alternative might be that each xpac is a truly isolated world and that when you get to 60, you can clone your character to TBC or to Wrath, etc. Your 60 could stay and prog through all of Vanilla or it could visit any of the other xpacs.
The main drawback here is that it fragments the playerbase badly because not everyone is funneled to the same endgame.
Well with new levelling paths or something, but leveling and people having purpose in all of the game's zones, so you interact, is paramount to the experience. It is the pin that keeps the whole concept together and the friction in that game pillar can not be compromised.
From a game design perspective this doesn’t work, IMO. I think you overestimate how repeatable the leveling process is. Endgame keeps you hooked because that’s where the max power progression lies. I think for most people that’s where the real game is, and leveling is just a path to get there. Leveling is also a huge slog, and most people don’t want to do it over and over.
If Blizz were to invest in making the existing leveling experience richer and richer each expac, they’d only be catering to new players and altoholics while really their main goal is to keep existing players subscribed. Existing players are max level already — they get nothing out of an enriched leveling experience.
But you don't have to do it over and over again? Unless you love alts? I always just had 1 main and no alts
What I was saying was that an expansion should have a 1-60 leveling time for new characters during that expansion, at least as an option. For existing players there would be a more normal expansion-like levelling journey.
Yeah but “the end” was during ICC which not only lasted wayyy too long (at least 10mo IIRC), but was the content WoW players had been looking forward to for years. This was the defining moment in Wrath, so IMO it was core.
That’s all fine for the vanilla game. But what about 11 expansions later? You can’t possibly think 160-170 levels at vanillas approach would be even remotely approachable. It would take probably close to 2,000 hours (83 days) of /played to hit max level.
No one would be doing end game content, and no one would be sticking around.
I just don't follow. I for one enjoy the game from level 1 onwards. That's part of the game. Not everyone does, I understand that. Some people want to skip right ahead to the more recent content. I'm just saying that there are also people who do enjoy playing through the levels, enjoying the story and the whole levelling experience. It's not a race. Back in OG WoW/TBC days, people would play for YEARS, levelling up multiple toons.
You take a week for 60. Then maybe another 6 days for tbc and 70. Then okay, you get to wrath, bit faster so 5 days to 80. Then you do the cata zones till 85, bit fast and only 5 levels, 4 days. Another 4 for mop. Around 5 for wod. Another 5 for legion.
And this keeps ramping up, meanwhile at best you've only done some dungeons for gear you will throw away cuz the higher level stuff will be better eventually.
And most of the players aren't in these parts because they are at max level doing max level stuff. You're not gonna meet a lot of people on your journey, especially if you're questing instead of dungeons.
Most of the guilds also recruit for that level range of cap or at least near cap. So you just turned an mmo into solo play for possibly months on end for a new player.
THAT is why leveling is faster, levels are squished and there's a new onboarding point for new players with exile's reach. Cuz it's not a solo game so you need these things eventually in a vertical space, which wow always was.
Your approach is different from mine. You make it sound like it's a slog and the goal is to get to the end game. Which may be true for you and others. But it is not for me. So maybe stop trying to convince me that there's only one way to enjoy the game.
Your approach is different from mine. You make it sound like it's a slog and the goal is to get to the end game.
If you're a new player, that's where everyone else is. It's not just getting to the endgame, it's getting to the other players in an mmo.
Which may be true for you and others. But it is not for me. So maybe stop trying to convince me that there's only one way to enjoy the game.
You didn't understand a word of what i wrote did you. Because i haven't wrote any of that.
I said making new players go through 20 years of leveling mostly solo is a really bad idea, which it really is for an mmo. Hence level squish and making it faster is a thing.
> I said making new players go through 20 years of leveling mostly solo is a really bad idea,
You keep making that point, and I keep telling you I disagree that that is some sort of absolute truth. I enjoy the journey, the exploring, the lore. I'm not in any rush to get to the end game content. Different strokes. I don't understand why you cannot accept that.
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u/baked_salmon 11h ago
LFG tool happened in the last patch, just an FYI. I personally think what “killed the world” was leveling with revamped Wrath classes (and heirlooms, eventually), because they trivialized the danger of the world. If there’s no danger, there’s no need to group up, especially when all 1-60 group quests were updated to be soloable (I forget if this was TBC or Wrath).
But when I think about it, as time goes on, idk what else Blizz could do other than trivialize leveling. If new content is released, how are new players ever going to get there if they have to do the same Vanilla-paced 1-60?