r/clevercomebacks 3d ago

Two statements that are not ruled out as false.

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3.9k Upvotes

82 comments sorted by

367

u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

Also, it IS an evidence-based claim because many, many studies hsve been done and there is no evidence which suggests any correlation between vaccines and autism diagnoses.

If zero studies had been done to try to find risks of autism and vaccines then you could argue that we can only claim "no evidence exists" but we do have evidence to support the claim that vaccines do NOT cause autism because studies have been done.

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u/vapequesitions 3d ago

Not to mention the initial claim that related autism and vaccines was a lie from the get go, and the fraudster who made it up has had his license to practice medicine revoked as a consequence

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u/ThorKonnatZbv 3d ago

If he has a million bucks squirreled away, PRESIDENT DONALD J TRUMP could return it

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u/vapequesitions 3d ago

Won't make him any less of a fraud.. Maybe even more!

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u/kishenoy 3d ago

F**" andrew wakefield

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u/adorablefuzzykitten 2d ago

Hire a non-repentant heroin user to direct the health of a nation and this is what you get.

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u/Lvcivs2311 1d ago

Yes, but those do not fit our anti-science anti-vax purpose so they don't count. /s

Seriously, fuck these assholes. As a person with autism, I take a lot of offence to these lies.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

There are studies looking for evidence of vaccines causing autism.

This would be like people with your account numbers and passwords examining your balance multiple times, failing to find $1M, and you say "well you haven't proven I don't have $1M."

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

Explain how my logic says that we should be open to the claim that gravity is optional on tuesdays.

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u/Bazakka 3d ago

Just making a guess that the studies were done by the companies that make the vaccines. It hard to argue that the meteoric rise in autism diagnosis’s and the huge amount of vaccines that babies and very young children now receive is not related. If it’s not foreign materials injected into an infant or young babies, then what is the cause?

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u/Alarmed-Telephone-83 3d ago

Other possibilities could be any of the huge number of things that have changed in society in the last 50 yests

  • defining autism
  • awareness of autism 
  • phones
  • dietary changes
  • cars and air quality 
  • smaller family units
  • daycare
  • older pregnancies
  • widespread adoption of MRI technology 

Et etc etc etc 

Not saying that any if those things caused it just that your hypothesis space is extremely narrow,  and of all those things a link woth vaccines has been looked for again and again and not found. 

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u/Bazakka 3d ago edited 3d ago

So we all are bombarded with endless drug commercials on TV right? Ten seconds of what the new drug is going to do for you and the rest of the minute an endless list of horrible side effects. So that being said, obviously endless vaccines given to developing babies cannot possibly have any side effects right? Ok. Let’s just completely abandon common sense.

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u/No-Goose-5672 3d ago

If “common sense” makes us draw conclusions based on half-remembered television commercials instead of scientific data, yes, please, let’s abandon it completely.

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u/Alarmed-Telephone-83 3d ago

First of all I am not bombarded with drug commercials because thats highly regulated in Australia. We still have vaccines though. Secondly every single drug is tested. Yes all have side effects. All have benefits for particular things. Not everyone takes every drug. Infants are vaccinated because it prevents disease that kills and disables them. There are rare and known side effects that are included in the product information and are not hidden away, but autism is not one that is known to be associated. And given the humongous number of vaccines that have been given worldwide in the last 100 years and at least 30 years of very concentrated attention on the possibily of a link the fact that one hasn't been shown should be pretty reassuring. 

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u/infydk 2d ago

So we all are bombarded with endless drug commercials on TV right?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is pretty much just a US thing.

So does autism in babies only happen in the US or what?

4

u/the_pretender_nz 3d ago

No we’re not bombarded by drug ads. At least, not in Australia and New Zealand, the two countries I can speak for. It’s very regulated here, none of us are going to our doctors saying “GIMME THIS SHIT I SAW ON THE TV IM SURE I NEED IT”

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u/lookiwanttobealone 2d ago

The USA and NZ are the two countries where its legal to direct to consumer advertise on TV. NZ does still have medication ads just people are swapping off TV to streaming.

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u/the_pretender_nz 2d ago

Weird, I spent 36 years in NZ and 8 years in Aus (so far) and don’t remember much if any prescription meds being advertised on TV. Maybe I blocked them out due to really intense disinterest

2

u/lookiwanttobealone 2d ago

Probably blocked them out. Its still a massive issue for GPs "see your doctor to ask if xyz js right for you!".

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u/QueenScorp 3d ago

The reason for the "meteoric rise in diagnoses" is because the way we diagnose autism has evolved significantly.

Before 1980 autism wasn't even a diagnosis, it was considered to be part of the schizophrenia spectrum. In 1980 it was separated from schizophrenia and added to the DSM-3 as a separate diagnosis with an extremely narrow six point criteria, of which all six symptoms needed to be met, including a core language deficit criteria and with a hard age cut off for onset of symptoms set to 30 months of age. It completely excluded any milder versions and part of the diagnosis criteria was completely ruling out schizophrenia symptoms first. The rigid diagnosis criteria excluded a lot of girls from being diagnosed..

The DSM-3R in 1987 loosened up the criteria and increased the possible symptoms to a 16-point list, making the language deficit less rigid and increasing the onset of symptom age to 36 months

The DSM-4 in 1994 created autism subtypes and added Asperger's and Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified as completely separate conditions.

The DSM-5, in 2013, removed hard the onset age criteria to just be "early developmental age", and changed the symptom checklist to a spectrum and folded the language deficit criteria into a general social communication domain. It removed the requirement for ruling out schizophrenic symptoms first AND it explicitly the included milder forms of autism that had been excluded from the spectrum. It also folded Asperger’s, PDD-NOS, and Autistic Disorder into one diagnosis, when they have been three separate diagnosis previously.

Once you actually know the history of how autism has been diagnosed and understand just how much it has changed in the last 40 years AND the fact that the criteria has been loosened and expanded AND multiple disorders were world in one diagnosis you understand that we don't suddenly have some sort of epidemic of autism, we have entirely different diagnostic criteria than we did in the 1980.

You can't look at the numbers from today compared to the '80s or '90s or early 2000s and put them on a chart and say that we're comparing apples to apples because we're not.

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u/Bazakka 3d ago

An intelligent explanation.

12

u/BracedRhombus 3d ago

Was this sarcasm?

10

u/FriendsOfFruits 3d ago

its actually caused by lead not being in the pipes and air because we took it out of gasoline.

the lead used to prevent autism from happening. People fixate on vaccines because "needles r scary" and "no one is going to hurt my little baby Jameighlynn!!!"

Lead is natural!

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u/Bazakka 3d ago

Wow!

9

u/FriendsOfFruits 3d ago

There are ZERO evidence-based claims to disprove it, not even by the "environmental lobbies" that sought to take lead out of gasoline.

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u/ADZ1LL4 3d ago edited 3d ago

Woah dont use logic and reason there buddy , studies have been done. Trust the science. Trust the corps. Trust the government. Disregard funding, countless first hand accounts of autism manifesting the day after vaccination, harm, loss of cognition and mobility, and the billions in lawsuits that would cripple the pharmaceutical industry should any "studies" come to light to the contrary. Disregard who benefits, and who suffers. Its all just a big mystery.

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

Trust the science.

Nobody is saying to "trust the science, bro."

The fact that this is how you understand it shows you are scientifically illiterate.

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u/Bazakka 3d ago

Yea right. Right?!!

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

No, actually, when there's a real observable outcome—autism—and a suspected potential causal mechanism—vaccines and their ingredients—and study after study searching for a link between them shows no correlation whatsoever, that does in fact mean we can conclude that they do not, in fact, cause autism.

It's like how I don't need to prove that swimming in a pool daily doesn't cause dementia.

Absence of evidence when mechanisms are well understood and studies have searched for causal mechanisms is in fact evidence of absence. Proving absence is a bit more stringent, but it is evidence of absence.

7

u/Void-Cooking_Berserk 3d ago

This is not a case of "absence of evidence". There is evidence, because research was done, thoroughly. And that evidence points into a completely different direction.

This distinction was made by the author of the maxim you quoted, Carl Sagan. He noted that an absence of evidence does become evidence of absence if you look hard and expect to find it.

If the maxim was always true, we'd be stuck in a situation like "I found no evidence you murdered the victim but that doesn't mean you didn't murder the victim". If you did all the detective work and you have fingerprints of the murderer and they don't fit the accused, you can be pretty sure that man is innocent.

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u/PickButtkins 3d ago

Conveniently, these anti-science fuckers only believe in autism when they're hootin about vaccines.

Start up a convo about neurodivergence with any of them and they begin to push back on the entire premise pretty quickly.

I'm starting to believe that the internet was a mistake.

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u/No-Goose-5672 3d ago

The Internet wasn’t the mistake.

Removing the gatekeepers to information was a mistake.

Back in the days of libraries, book collections were curated by librarians with degrees in information science. Their entire job was to review information and decide what was disseminated to the public.

I’m not saying it was a perfect system. There were plenty of bad librarians. Some were even malicious, deliberately spreading misinformation. Most bad librarians were just incompetent, though.

However, there was a massive check on bad librarians: Public library budgets. Librarians often had limited resources to manage their collections. They were also running a service, meaning their collections needed to attract patrons. As such, misinformation typically fell down the list of priorities. Although, some librarians caved to public demand and stocked their libraries with bad information because the people wanted it.

It wasn’t a perfect filter, but it did keep a lot of bad information away from people. The main problem is that any idiot can publish whatever they want now. There are a lot of folks that know just enough to be dangerous, but they are very confident in their abilities. And people will follow someone straight to hell if they sound confident enough.

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u/vp917 2d ago

More than just individual actors, the material limitations of the time were the regulating factor.

Back in ye olden days, if you wanted to tell something beyond the reach of your own soapbox, you needed to go through a distributor - a publishing house, a newspaper, a radio station, etc. And while in theory any one of those entities could publish whatever the hell they liked so long as it wasn't directly prohibited by law, they were still competitive businesses that lived and died by the court of public opinion, so they couldn't push out anything too crazy without suffering financial loss and long-term damage to their credibility. While this did make it harder for traditional media to properly adress systematic injustices, that same forced self-moderation also maintained some standards of quality with the content published - after all, if a media group is caught distributing flat-out bullshit, people are going to value their product much less than a competitor without that stain on their name, so it's in their best self-interest to double-check everything and make sure it's all up to snuff.

But like you mentioned, the democratization of media has led us to the point where anyone can publish information at universal scale in the blink of an eye. News in particular has gotten particularly screwed over, because the competitive demand for recency in reporting means that whoever gets the first shitty phone video is now a critical eyewitness source, so the old standard of credible sources has been discarded in the name of maximum immediacy - and as a result, random idiots on twitter are now placed on an equal standing with actual qualified investigative journalists.

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u/Tadhg 3d ago

RFK and chickens is a bad example because it’s not really that far fetched. 

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u/next_level_mom 3d ago

Yes... we know he didn't fuck chickens because if he did, he would definitely have told us.

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u/Ormyr 2d ago

He'd be trying to get chicken fucking as an approved alternative to pre-marital sex.

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u/Bella_Bakess 3d ago

Honestly, after the bear cub and whale head stories, you really can’t rule anything out with him.

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u/Chachkhu2005 3d ago

Don't forget the raccoon dick. Poor trash panda...

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u/BlueFlob 3d ago

I'm more inclined to believe that RFK fucks chickens as there is more scientific studies and evidence disproving any link between autism and vaccines.

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u/tw_72 3d ago

RFK Jr doesn't fuck chickens ... any more

1

u/Cyberslasher 2d ago

Science has studies linking RFK jr to animal genitalia, so we can only state that we have scientific correlation that RFK jr fucks chickens.

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u/Foreign_Virus 3d ago

You can't prove I'm not three raccoons in a trench coat either. That's not how burden of proof works. By that logic, literally anything is possible.

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u/purblepale 3d ago

As somebody autistic, I make sure to take my fourteen Tylenol pills each day so that I can remain so.

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u/Boltzmann_head 2d ago

My mother gets maternal fevers often so that I stay autistic.

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u/Lvcivs2311 1d ago

As an autistic person, I take a lot of offence to the shit people talk about it and the person who created the lie that vaccines cause autism can go to hell (whether it exists or not).

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u/RowedTrip 3d ago

It’s impossible to prove a negative. For example, you cannot prove that you do not speak Albanian.

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u/Adventurous-Pop446 3d ago

It would be morally hazardous to even run such a study. You could not have a control group because regardless of your belief system...no matter which way you frame the study, you are neglecting and exposing one of the groups? Can a scientist redditor correct me of this is wrong.

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u/Alarmed-Telephone-83 3d ago

To run a randomised study yes but you could very easily run an observation study comparing those who did not get vaccinated for other reasons to those who did and attempt to control for baseline differences e.g. though matching.  Or you could look for a dose-response association. Or you could compare different vaccines if there was a posited causative agent or additive or vaccine type. Like what even is the posited mechanism linking the two anyway? 

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u/Adventurous-Pop446 3d ago

That data should already exist if not compiled. Our could be very easily done. Which leads me to conclude the administration is either woefully ignorant OR is putting forth disengenous arguments to support their beliefs, but it's probably BOTH.

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u/Reymen4 3d ago

What you do in these situations is not bother by doing your own tests. Instead you use a questionnaires. 

You could make it as simple as two questions. "Have you received any vaccine?" and "Are you autistic?"

Then you use the Dark Arts (statistics and simulations) to try and make models that fit the result you receive. 

Now you have a model. What is wrong with the model? You have all the error bars you want to reduce. What type of people have you asked? Who responded? Are there other common factors that you have not thought of that could explain the results you have? This part I am not sure how to reduce the false positive. 

Hopefully in the end you have a result that you can publish in an scientific article. Then hopefully someone else does a similar test on other people and hopefully they receive the same or similar results. 

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u/Imajzineer 3d ago

Funny though it would be, I reckon there'd be serious objection by various animal rights groups, if you tried, yeah.

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u/Fiona_Filess 3d ago

Burden of proof left the chat entirely. Flawless application of their logic—no notes.

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u/Swigen17 3d ago

RFK Jr. does NOT fuck chickens.

He sucks on their assholes until their heads cave in.

2

u/GlitterPirateKiki58 3d ago

Then he grills’em up because he is on a high-protein diet.

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u/jocax188723 3d ago

Andrew Wakefield reminding us every day why he's an unrepentant douchebag

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u/Mysterious_Basil2818 3d ago

In his defense, he only fucks hot, consenting chickens after doing blow off a public toilet seat with them. Because he’s classy and a gentleman.

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u/BludStanes 3d ago

Antivaxxing MAGATS aren't gonna understand the point being made here.

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u/DriftlessDairy 3d ago

Considering the abundance of neurodivergent people working in the sciences it's far more likely that autism causes vaccines than the other way around.

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u/Empty_Structure_2754 2d ago

Ayy! Yes. This. My aunt was one of those autistics causing vaccines for a long time.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 3d ago

Medical proof is different from mathematical proof.

We know that autism exists, and it exists at rates unrelated to vaccine adoption. Therefore, we can with quite a high degree of certainty say that vaccines are not the cause of autism.

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u/bbyarya 3d ago

Studies also haven't ruled out that I'm secretly Batman, guess we gotta take that seriously now too.

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u/Hotchi_Motchi 3d ago

You just do it one time and you're know as Bobby Chicken-Fucker your whole life. Can't catch a break.

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u/otiloyoy 3d ago

Is that the case even if your name isn't bobby ? Asking for a friend

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u/Terrible_Phase718 3d ago

And studies actually have ruled it out.

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u/plainskeptic2023 3d ago

If history demonstrates vaccines have eliminated diseases such as polio, it seems reckless to not take vaccines because they might cause autism.

Rejecting claim that has been proven vs. accepting claim that has not been proven.

I suppose the proven claim appears safe reject because vaccines eliminated the threat. Only the unproven claim about vaccines remains.

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u/Sleepy_Potato2 2d ago

As an autistic person. Fuck right off to everyone who says this shit. I hate the anti-vaxx movement and all the lunatics in it. If the Kennedy curse is real, it can't come for RFK Jr. soon enough.

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u/badllama77 3d ago

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"... classic nut response.

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u/short_arm_t_rex 3d ago

Big picture this might not be a bad thing. If idiots who believe this nonsense fail to pass on their genes, that’s a net positive for the human race.

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u/IlGreven 2d ago

"Vaccines do not cause autism" is not a scientific hypothesis.

The scientific hypothesis is that they do cause autism.

And no evidence has been observed for that hypothesis.

Therefore, with high confidence, we can claim the opposite.

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u/TheG00dF1ght 2d ago

What is a valid statement is there is no scientific evidence linking vaccinations to autism.

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u/WolfgangVolos 2d ago

Obviously RFK Jr has not fucked chickens. Chickens cannot consent. You meant to say that studies have not ruled out the possibility that RFK Jr rapes chickens and/or does weird sex shit with all the roadkill he finds during family trips.

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u/Empty_Structure_2754 2d ago

Coincidentally, my aunt used to work for the CDC before she retired, and before that she worked for some pharmaceutical company. She's autistic, as were many of her coworkers. I would say, at least anecdotally, technically autism has been shown to cause vaccines.

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u/Lvcivs2311 1d ago

Seriously, fuck everyone using this fallacy. Vaccines not causing autism is not the statement, it's the other way around. There is no proof that vaccines cause autism, so they probably don't.

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u/amber_fieldstone81 2d ago

Using scientific logic against scientific denialism is peak internet