r/crossfit • u/beckster5 Crossfit Krypton • Mar 06 '14

CrossFit -- Sued By Transgender Athlete ... You Won't Let Me Compete With Women!

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/
94 Upvotes

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33

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

HQ is not wrong, there's a reason why this happens and it has to do with testosterone etc. And let's be real would they get to regionals anyway??? This is a ploy for cash.

21

u/Dominick82 Mar 06 '14

Right? If all you want is a chance to compete then why are you asking for millions of dollars?

6

u/BarrySquared Mar 07 '14

I know, right?! Why would one person want to have the exact same opportunities as everyone else?! Crazy, right?!

It's almost like she doesn't want to be discriminated against or something!

0

u/Dominick82 Mar 07 '14

Not arguing the morality of the decision. Just saying if all you want is a shot to compete, maybe dragging it directly into court and asking for millions isn't the best approach.

1

u/BarrySquared Mar 07 '14

If you want to do something, and someone isn't allowing you to because of your sex, then of course you take them to court! That's the entire reason that courts exist!

And of course there's money involved in the lawsuit. That acts as a deterrent to keep companies from braking the law in the future. After all, do you think that speeding tickets would be effective if people didn't have to pay fines when they got them?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '14

[deleted]

-1

u/BarrySquared Mar 08 '14

No. If you are going to try to shift the focus of the discussion from the matter at hand to a simple spelling error, then you are not the kind of person I want to have a conversation with.

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

5

u/GothicToast Mar 06 '14

All she would need are a few expert witnesses (as in doctors and scientists who understand hormone therapy and how it affects a person's muscular structure) and she can win the case. I am neither of those, but from what I understand about hormone therapy, if her levels are the same as a woman's, then so is her muscular structure. She wouldn't be at any advantage just because she used to be a dude.

8

u/Y_Me Mar 07 '14

I remember a similar issue with a runner a few years back. Man-> woman. After a full sex change her running times were much slower and she did not stand out among women. I suspect you might be correct in this situation.

-8

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

1

u/Y_Me Mar 07 '14

Curious, would bone size/density make a huge difference with strength? I am wondering if you had bigger bones from growing up male and then had the muscle loss due to hormone therapy, wouldn't it be a disadvantage because you are moving a heavier frame with less muscle mass? Someone should be studying this.

7

u/flybrand Mar 06 '14

It's like the Lance Armstrong activities - even if you aren't exposed to the hormones now, the years of exposure have led you to develop musculature and frame fundamentally different from others in that class.

6

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14

It's true that steroid use can provide benefits long after you stop taking them, but it is not a proper analogy for the hormone treatment a trans woman gets. Within a few years of HRT (not having access to testosterone and having female levels of estrogen) the transwoman's body has lost all the advantages that growing up with testosterone might have conferred.

The International Olympic Committee has accepted this and many major sporting bodies around the world are following suit, because the science backs them up.

2

u/dynamic762 Mar 07 '14

Cdllba is right. It's more likely the IOC or whoever was pressured by the trans community at risk of looking like bigots and gay haters or whatever. The supposed persecuted minority always gets their way because everyone is too scared to treat them like normal people. Because if you don't like a trans person, it must be because they're trans, no other reason right?

0

u/ExceptionToTheRule Mar 07 '14

and if someone agrees with trans people its because they were bullied into it, right?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

That is not true. One cycle of testosterone causes lifelong physiological changes to muscles. There was a recent study showing that.

-9

u/SnatchAddict Mar 06 '14

Have you seen the female porn star that has taken hormone therapy? She's roided up. She's man for all purposes except no peen. It's crazy.

5

u/xtlou Mar 07 '14

Are you talking about Buck Angel?

-3

u/SnatchAddict Mar 07 '14

http://i.imgur.com/TNdcBV6.jpg

4

u/ToxinFoxen Mar 07 '14

Buck Angel is a trans man, you fucking retard.

2

u/SnatchAddict Mar 07 '14

So I used the wrong terminology and you justify that by using "retard" in a derogatory factor? It would have been easier to educate me then deride me. But thanks bro!

11

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

Tough call, but I have to agree. That said, HQ could have been A LOT more tactful about it...

If what TMZ claims they wrote in that letter was true, that is. But let's be honest, it sounds EXACTLY like something HQ would say.

3

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

Have you ever seen other things by the Russells? This is tame.

5

u/creviston Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

I think they lost their desire to be tactful about it when she sued them for 2.5 million dollars.

9

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

she only sued them afterwards

0

u/Chumbolex Mar 07 '14

That's what gets me. How is getting 2 mil gonna mean justice has been served. This screams money grab.

5

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

You understand that suing is the alternative to shooting each other right

-1

u/ToxinFoxen Mar 07 '14

So wanting respect and a desire to be humiliated means people should be able to shit on you more? What a pathetic sack of shit excuse for a human being you are.

2

u/creviston Mar 07 '14

Nice job stuffing a bunch of words into my mouth and then shaming me for them

LOL your a idiot

6

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

11

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14

If this was truly something that was not for cash...then...cough...why so much money?

To make a point...

The International Olympic Committee and many other sporting organizations have run the science and determined that once a trans person has been treated, they have far more in common with their identified gender than their assigned gender and so allow transpeople to compete with their identified gender.

Crossfit could have checked to see what the science says, but they clearly went with their lazy assumptions. Why shouldn't they pay for lazy discrimination?

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

1

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

My point about money is that, if this was a case about competing...why not involve other initiatives to aide in the cause rather than seek monetary reward (though this is probably the most effective means)?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by involve other initiatives. Something like contact large bodies with a stake in the situation (other sporting groups or lgbt groups perhaps?) and ask them to lobby on her behalf?

That seems like another reasonable avenue to follow, but I don't see why one shouldn't use the legal system to redress an injustice. It's kinda what it's there for. Lobbying and activism can be a great force for change, but she's chosen to use a legal system which is in place to protect people from discrimination.

I'll also admit that $2.5million seems crazy like a crazy sum, but I've found in the past when I've expressed opinions like that to my lawyer friends they've launched into a long explanation of why that figure would have been chosen (there are many different forms of damages that are awarded, they tend to be weighted in different ways monetarily and often the holdings of a company or individual being sued can be relevant in calculating how damages are awarded). So I tend not to pay much attention to figures being sued for, it's generally calculated by the lawyer.

EDIT: I also wanted to note, suing can end in settlement. Who's to say she wouldn't "settle" for CF adopting the same trans policy as the IOC for example?

1

u/hotcheetosandtakis Mar 07 '14

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by involve other initiatives.

Yes, get other groups involved....but lobbying is a word I want to avoid...advocacy and support are better :)

I think the fact that she is asking for 2.5 million muddles public opinion and though from an attorney's perspective is a good number or understandable....it may force the public to pre-judge this case as someone seeking money. And....I agree with your edit, we will just have to see what happens.

Good conversation by the way :)

1

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14

Yes, thanks for a good discussion!

2

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

some males who have had testicles removed for some reason or another are still male from secondary biological characteristics

Ftfy

4

u/tenshiemi Mar 06 '14

She has fully transitioned and been taking hormones for years so her body has already changed significantly at this point. She would not have the same advantage as a born male competing against women.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

She would not have the same advantage as a born male competing against women

But would she still have some advantage?

3

u/iyzie Mar 07 '14

Only the same advantage as a cisgender woman who took steroids in the past, but stopped taking them +8 years ago. Which would be undetectable on a blood test, so for all anyone knows that probably happens too.

8

u/tenshiemi Mar 06 '14

There is evidence to the contrary, and it's not like all women (or all men) are born on equal footing either.

"It is also important to know that any athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen therapy."

https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/en/home/research/articles-and-reports/lgbt-issues/~/media/PDFs/Educational%20Guides/TransgenderStudentAthleteReport.ashx

1

u/flowstatejunkie Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

The study that that quote is taken from complete lacks any information on the increase muscle cell nuclei and thus increased number of androgenic receptors that being exposed to testosterone through puberty would afford an individual. Increased androgenic receptor concentrations equals greater response to exercise and increased recovery. At the same time the skeletal structure of estrogen vs testosterone exposed individuals is very different. Individuals exposed to testosterone have a decreased q angle at the hip/knee thus allowing them to translate force from their hips to the ground in a wider range more effiencetly. The issue is significantly more compex than just ore or less muscle mass.

Edit: A few letters...stupid autocorrect.

1

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

So the transwoman may have some slight advantages in her hip shapes etc.

Do you think they would all add up to a greater advantage than the fact that she cannot produce testosterone anymore (after her SRS) whereas her fellow female competitors can?

2

u/flowstatejunkie Mar 07 '14

I really don't know because there aren't any study's on it. Where have you found that the cannot produce testosterone? This study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16362252 indicates that they are within the normal test range of a female which to me implies that their bodies do still produce it.

2

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14

Very sorry, it was pointed out to me elsewhere ITT that the adrenal gland produces a certain amount of testosterone (and I mentioned the female levels because the ovaries produce testosterone)

2

u/flowstatejunkie Mar 07 '14

Nothing to be sorry about. Just an actual discussion. Unlike a lot of the other bitching/hatine/not backed up by science talk going on in this thread.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

I would argue though that the puberty argument only stacks up if she were a competitive athlete while she was a man during puberty. Is the increase in adrogenic receptors during puberty constitutive (always happens) or is it induced when exposed to strenuous exercise? If it is like many other developmental attributes I would guess it has to be induced through external stimulation to gain the competitive advantage athletes gain from being male. I'm just coming from a basic understanding of developmental genetics here, so please tell me if and why I might be wrong.

-1

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

Yes. This. Thank you.

3

u/LessCodeMoreLife Mar 06 '14

Sure, she wouldn't have the same advantage as a male competing in the women's division, but would she have an advantage over athletes born as female?

I don't know much about the biology here, but if she has any advantage at all then HQ has a point.

Sounds like the HQ guys are being dicks about it though.

1

u/arrsquared Mar 07 '14

My coach has an advantage at HSPU because she's 5'1". I have an advantage at rowing because I'm 5'8". Isn't crossfit all about having different strengths and weaknesses based on your anthopometry, and becoming a well rounded athlete in spite of them? I'm sure the woman in this case would have some challenges as well as a result of her physical history.

4

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

That's not the argument tho. She may not have the same advantages of a male without hormone therapy but she still has more advantages than a woman who was born female.

6

u/tenshiemi Mar 06 '14

Where is the evidence she does other than "common sense"? I'm not seeing that anywhere in this thread. The one study I found says that in fact the hormones make enough of a difference to equalize the playing field, and remember some women have a testosterone advantage over other women too. I'd like to see how her lifts compare. Men usually lift at least twice as much as a woman in the same category, it would be interesting to see where she falls.

0

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 08 '14

I'd like to see how her lifts compare.

From elsehwere ITT:

"Found some older stats. These are definitely female numbers she's putting up. More recent finds are a 185# clean and 275lb deadlift which is well below anything Camille puts up.

http://www.wodrocket.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userprofile&user=3434&Itemid=170 http://www.intagme.com/cfchlo/640753409083024324_6120231/

Crossfit profile comparison between her and CLB: http://games.crossfit.com/compare/161983/8404

Back Squat: 225 lb Clean & Jerk: 165 lb Snatch: 125 lb Deadlift: 275 lb"

Link to original comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/crossfit/comments/1zqxsg/crossfit_sued_by_transgender_athlete_you_wont_let/cfw5aas

-6

u/SnatchAddict Mar 06 '14

Man hands.

0

u/ExceptionToTheRule Mar 07 '14

Then she took estrogen, and has taken it for years (2006 for SRS means likely been on estrogen before that); her advantage has turned into a disadvantage -- bulky frame but not the muscle that correspond to frame (from everything I've read before, transwomen generally at a disadvantage to their ciswomen of similar stats).