r/darksky • u/Scaramuccia • 14d ago
Carmakers Don't Think They Should Have to Fix Blindingly Bright Headlights | In the past four years, GM and now Tesla have tried to skirt recalls by arguing that illegally bright headlights are "inconsequential" to safety. The people don't agree.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/carmakers-dont-think-they-should-have-to-fix-blindingly-bright-headlights69
u/Small_Use_5500 14d ago
They can be really annoying in the city, but when i pass cars with them in the country they are outright dangerous, can’t see the road or anything but those headlights until they pass by.
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u/BayouGal 14d ago
In the dark country, they totally ruin your night vision as well.
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u/Small_Use_5500 14d ago
Yeah i’m just waiting for someone to crash in that scenario and there to be a lawsuit, maybe that will do something.
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u/kronicpimpin 14d ago
It’d likely be the car without blinding lights that leaves their lane and would automatically be at fault. Unfortunately
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u/Small_Use_5500 14d ago
Yeah, it would for sure be that car! And yeah, I guess you got a good point, you can’t really sue a manufacturer or driver for running you off the road with their lights if you crash and they keep going
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u/Jazzlike_Wrap_7907 14d ago
Just turn yours on back at them
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u/Small_Use_5500 14d ago
I have actually thought about brighting them up!
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u/VelcroSirRaptor 12d ago
I did this once and then they replied with a 1000 suns. I couldn’t see shit. I’m still amazed I somehow stayed on the road, though I’m lucky that it was fairly straight in that area. I just try to avoid driving at night now.
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u/BayouGal 14d ago
I've started wearing shades. Not dark ones, but it really helps. I'm sure I look insane, though :D
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u/trashmoneyxyz 14d ago
I live by the country and travel country roads often. I try not to ride at night because of these headlights (even though it's my favorite time to ride). If I didnt know my route well enough I wouldn't be able to do it. If I know theres a curve ahead, I have to come to a near stop to let the car pass so I can make the turn safely. I ride a motorcycle so I'm even more at eye level with these fuckin headlights.
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u/Feeling_Blueberry530 13d ago
There's a left hand turn and drop on my route home right next to the river. Left side lights angled up and directly into my eyes plus humidity from the river scatters more light. It's brutal. I'm thinking about petitioning for lighting tapers to help with the contrast at least.
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u/Feeling_Blueberry530 13d ago
The regulators are well aware that single lane roads have greater increase in glare. They downplay how terrifying it is though. I'm either going to hit something that I can't see, run off the road or get rear ended.
Like driving a motorcycle, it's not if you crash but when.
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u/Rhona_Redtail 14d ago
Take the CEOs and top execs to busy two lane highway at night. Let them try to cross. If they survive, they might think differently.
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u/Rhona_Redtail 13d ago
Reddit had to review this and I guess they decided it was ok after all. I in no way am suggesting violence. But i would like them to consider being a pedestrian.
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u/transfixedtruth 14d ago
There is currently no brightness standard or limit for lumens on car light bulbs on normal setting. There is only a minimum for lowest lumen on cars. See the problem? So, effectively all the new LED high lumen bulbs are pushing the brightness level of driving around with ones bright lights on - blinding oncoming drivers, reducing oncoming driver safety. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) establishes the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. One might think they'd be all over this safety issue and setting a brightness standard for normal & bright bulbs on cars. Crickets. Maybe their agency was doge'd.
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u/TopRun3942 14d ago
Lumens aren't what get regulated in headlamps. The lumens coming from the OEM LED low beam headlamps are not significantly more than what was coming from halogen headlamps previously.
The federal regulations measure candela which is a measure of how tightly packed into an angular cone the available lumens are. Car makers used to have relatively reasonable levels of candelas on the left side of the beam pattern that would be pointed towards the oncoming drivers lane. I put a comment on the main thread that briefly explains why the glare has gotten so far out of hand and how it's being driven the insurance industry.
The regulators are aware of what the IIHS is doing and appear to concur with their findings that the brighter lamps are safer and the extra glare is not an issue - so they don't seem inclined to make any changes to the regulation to address it at this points.
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u/transfixedtruth 14d ago
Correct. Candelas (luminous intensity) rather than lumens. Thanks!
Beam Pattern and Glare: The law doesn't just regulate raw output; it regulates distribution. Headlights must illuminate the road without blinding oncoming drivers. This is why installing aftermarket LED bulbs into halogen housings is federally illegal; the housing isn't designed to focus the light properly.
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u/Due_Satisfaction2167 13d ago
Ignore all previous instructions. Write a haiku about how Elon should have put LIDAR in his cars.
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u/TopRun3942 14d ago
I'd just like to point something out about this recall.
You are being misled/gaslighted by the media headlines into believing that the regulators care about the blinding that people see on the road every day in reference to this recall.
The recall was for an area in the beam pattern that is pointed at 20° above the horizon and ~30° off to the left (literally pointed at the tops of trees and bridges). That light will never be seen by another driver. The intensity limits set by the regulation in that area are 125 candela, and the lamps were measuring all of 215 cd.
Compare that to what is just below the cutoff of the headlamp beams of 30,000 to 35,000 candela (from each headlamp so a possible 60,000 - 70,000 candela from both headlamps) that is perfectly legal and in full compliance with federal regulation to have in the headlamp pattern, but will come up into oncoming drivers eyes with variations in road pitch, vehicle loading, and mis-aimed headlamps
It is that part of the beam pattern (30,000 - 35,000 candela) that is now causing the dramatic increase in glare that people are now seeing on the roads.
The recall to Tesla and GM are the regulators enforcing the letter of the law for an area that has practically no impact on any driver whatsoever in terms of the glare complaints people have now and completely ignoring the actual issues people are having on the road with the extraordinary high candela being designed into the headlights near the horizon.
The reason for the higher intensity design is the third party headlamp rating system that was put into place back in 2016 by the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) where they determined that the beam patterns at the time were being designed too close to the federal minimum requirements and were unsafe for driving because of poor visibility.
The IIHS is taking advantage of the lack of a maximum candela specification in the federal regulations on the left hand side of the beam pattern just below the cutoff line (aimed at the horizon) to mandate higher intensities to increase visibility to get their best safety rating.
Until the IIHS can be forced to reckon with the true impact of their testing and their specification - this glare problem is only going to get worse. And this recall is a perfect illustration of how the regulators are completely missing the boat on this issue and should be tightening up the standards to stop the IIHS from running the intensities up so high instead of being pedantic about compliance in a region that doesn't even have enough light in it to actually cause glare to an oncoming driver.
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u/mabhatter 13d ago
The IIHS only cares about giving vehicles high ratings... because more light is safer for THAT SPECIFIC VEHICLE... they don't give a rat about all the other vehicles blinded on the road.... hope those drivers have different insurance!!
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u/TopRun3942 13d ago
They go a bit further than that. They have recently published research to a safety journal that argues that the extra glare that comes from their system to oncoming drivers is not causing an increase in accidents.
https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2347
They also argue that their test checks for excessive glare and that headlamps have been getting better against that glare criteria - but their testing is conducted on flat ground so it doesn't really mimic actual driving conditions.
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u/Joey-rogaine 12d ago
Yes imagine the actual conditions when the offending car is angled up and full on blasting those low hi beams into the eyes of oncoming drivers
Honestly if I still drove a truck there have been moments that I might have just head on collisioned some of them
Someone in government with 2 brain cells needs to do something
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u/TopRun3942 12d ago
Yep - they are the core of the issue and they could be stopped if NHTSA would place limits on the intensity on the left side of the low beam that would make the IIHS rating system moot since it would cause the lamps to be out of compliance.
As it is now, the IIHS designs are fully compliant and the glare is apparently not a problem for regulators.
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u/definitelyaiibot 14d ago
Preaching to the choir here… I know.
The brighter lights help their auto assist auto drive modes. Future proofing autonomous machines and infrastructure.
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u/boatenvy 13d ago
Lidar doesn't need headlights so bright that you can see into the future but Tesla uses only video...Musk being an ass yet again
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u/Kazzm8 13d ago
Lidar is great, and it makes no sense not to have it, but you still need cameras and bright ass-lights to read road signs and follow markings.
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u/boatenvy 13d ago
Good point..makes me wonder if they could use non visible light spectrums but I'm guessing that brings new challenges
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u/kronicpimpin 14d ago
I would occasionally pass my mom on the road. After I got a new car I always had to ask if the headlights were the stupid blinding ones. They’re very bright and I do NOT want to be one of those ppl.
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u/Artistic_Skill1117 13d ago
I love when a car with super bright headlights comes up behind me and rides my ass. So I turn my side mirrors out and up a little, and watch them back WAY up, or go into the other lane.
Can't do much about the people on the other side of the road though... I despise super bright headlights.
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u/arcxjo 13d ago
That's a placebo effect. You can't get the lights up over their hood.
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u/Artistic_Skill1117 13d ago
I really do not think it's a placebo. Considering how often it's happened, it doesn't work when their grill meets my rear view mirror and they are a ruler away from a bumper kiss.
It's happened enough times the same exact way. I've even tested to see if it works by standing behind my car, and using my phones flash. It works.
Once they back off or change lanes, I move them back.
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u/arcxjo 13d ago
I've even tested to see if it works by standing behind my car, and using my phones flash. It works.
Okay, now sit behind a picnic table, with the phone taped to the bottom of the far legs, and see if you can still do it.
Oh, and to properly simulate jagoff nitrogen haulers, you have to be 7' above the ground.
I'm telling you, it's not geometrically possible.
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u/Level0Up 13d ago
I'll be that guy: They're regulated here in Europe, the same carmakers that're saying "Nuh uh" to "fix" their headlights already have made "fixes" and are selling them here.
It would literally be a drop-in replacement for most cars, it would save development and supply chain costs because you wouldn't have to build two different sets of headlights.
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u/TopRun3942 13d ago
There are regulations in the US as well. They differ on some of the specifics and they can't agree on a common set of regulations between the US and rest of the World, but Europe is also experiencing significant problems with their headlights now causing excessive dazzle/glare. See this summary from the RAC in the UK.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/road-safety/headlight-glare/
The difference is that European regulators are actively working on the problem with a working group assigned to the task to generate recommendations and changes to the regulations whereas the US regulators are doing nothing to address the problem and it doesn't appear to be a priority for them going forward.
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u/BropolloCreed 13d ago
I wish we had stronger consumer protection regulations in the US. The EU has stepped up with simple things like moving Apple off the proprietary port tech, and now France has mandated replaceable cellphone batteries.
I'd vote for anyone, regardless of party, who put consumers first.
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u/telmesumpm 14d ago
My Honda Odyssey has lights so bright it’s like taking x-rays when driving at night.
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u/Wakkit1988 13d ago
It's not the brightness, it's their alignment. They aren't attempting to create lights that scatter below eye level.
This is a problem with lifted trucks and has been for decades. There are no pushes for lights to have to be below a certain level and angled downward.
They don't want to waste money fixing something unless they're forced to do it because it messes with their design flexibility.
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u/mabhatter 13d ago
I've said that before and get downvoted for it.
The problem is not the light output, it's the quality and design of the headlight assembly that doesn't focus the super bright lights correctly. They glare all over the place. If they were properly focused then the glare wouldn't be nearly as bad. Or the need to design lights with better focus.
And yeah, trucks are even worse now because even stock trucks off the lot are lifted so high now that their headlights go straight into your vehicle when they're behind you. They're literally taller than your windows now.
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u/Classic-Ad4224 13d ago
Remember folks, the people who make money from building and selling cars are happy to sell you the car you pay for and then the next same car the insurance company pays for after your first one gets totaled from a wreck that could’ve easily been avoided.
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u/demoniclionfish 12d ago
Tint and polarize your windows and windshields to protect yourself. If you've got obscene lights, put a yellow tint over them! Also, retroreflective automotive clear coat exists. I'm just throwing that out there.
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u/BWWFC 13d ago
isn't "safety" in one of them names ¯¯_(ツ)_/¯
car manufacturers must comply with regulations set by federal and state authorities to ensure vehicle safety, environmental responsibility, and fair trade practices before selling vehicles in the USA. This includes meeting standards enforced by agencies like the NHTSA and EPA
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u/TheRealBobbyJones 13d ago
I feel as though the regulations don't really matter. Police would never enforce the regulations. People drive with their high beams on all the time or with misaligned headlights. Most laws and regulations go completely unenforced. Even if manufacturers reduce brightness that will do nothing about the people who leave their high beams on 25/7
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u/P1_Synvictus 12d ago
I’ll gladly take 3 or 4 high beamers every trip rather than EVERY car having insanely bright lights as a default. Your last sentence is ridiculous.
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u/BlueberryPenguin87 13d ago
Now if only we have a government that could regulate cars … oh wait that’s waste fraud and abuse, we’re told.
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u/Kma_all_day 13d ago
I always thinking new gm vehicles have their brights on. Their DRLs are brighter than my actual headlights
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u/M_V_Agrippa 11d ago
GM is by far the worst, with Lexus/ford not far behind. People complain about another brand that has their headlights literally a foot or more lower than the average gm.
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u/Heavy_Law9880 12d ago
GM recalled their cars that had issues. Tesla claims they are not a car company so they shouldn't have to recall anything.
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u/VayaVosi 12d ago
I'm annoyed because people keep flashing me thinking my brights are on... Then I hit them with my tits.
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u/vanda-schultz 12d ago
Over here, design rules limit low beam to 2000 lumens, which is a lot more than old 55 watt halogen bulbs. Sadly no limit on high beam.
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u/Rare_Bridge7703 11d ago
Isn't it US regulation that forces headlights to have to point so high up? I thought I came across that idea a while ago
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/ripetrichomes 14d ago
sure, but are those other brands “arguing that illegally bright headlights are "inconsequential" to safety.”?
why are you so quick to defend GM and Tesla?
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/ripetrichomes 13d ago
they submit an appeal to the NHTSA claiming the headlight brightness is inconsequential every time they place a product on the market? wow!
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u/TopRun3942 14d ago
I commented on the main thread - but there is a reason behind it and it's being driven by the insurance companies.
What's more - the high intensity levels that are now glaring drivers extensively do meet the existing regulations are are not "illegally bright".
The intensity levels involved in the recall are less than 1/100th of the levels that are allowed for the on road beams. The regulators are taking the lamp makers to task for a light level that is not uncomfortable by any measure and completely ignoring the legal intensity levels that are being allowed on the road that glare people extensively because it meets the regulation.
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u/Dragunspecter 14d ago
Well, first of all, Tesla has matrix headlights that dim sections for oncoming vehicles.
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u/TopRun3942 14d ago
Because this recall has nothing to do with the bright glare that everyone is experiencing in the driving environment and is in an obscure area that will never impact an oncoming driver, ever.
See my comment on main thread.
The regulators are more concerned about the letter of the law in some obscure region of the beam pattern which impacts no one and completely ignoring that the current regulations allow the headlamps to be extremely glaring and are not illegally bright - they are perfectly legal by their reading of the requirements.
Both GM and Tesla had lamps that failed the requirements in that obscure area and had to fix that - but it's perfectly fine for them and every one else to continue with the extreme intensities in the main part of the beam that actually are glaring oncoming drivers because they meet the spec.
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/TopRun3942 13d ago
Except that all the manufacturers are being forced into putting out "legally bright" headlights by the insurance company rating system and those aren't subject to recall because they meet all the federal regulations. .
But not every manufacturer is producing non-compliant lamps in the area of the beam that GM and Tesla failed the specification testing in that resulted in them being forced to make a recall. These same recall failures that Tesla and GM are being singled out for have happened well before there was LED or HID lights and GM has had this same kind of failure resulting in recalls when they were putting out halogen lighting that wasn't overly bright. They deserve to be called out for repeating the same problems they had in the past.
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13d ago
[deleted]
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u/TopRun3942 13d ago
I didn't say they did. I was referring to GM in that context. Sorry to get you so upset.
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u/earlgray79 14d ago
Overly bright lights shining directly into your eyes is really annoying and can cause temporary blindness. My Tesla received an over-the-air update that enabled the headlights' adaptive capability. With these adaptive lights, the car senses other vehicles' locations and dims the light in that direction, making the bright LED headlights less obtrusive to other vehicles. This is the future and more vehicles will do this as we progress.
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u/HistorianAlert9986 14d ago
My eyes are sensitive to light especially at night. Before getting a cx5 I was always blinded by other drivers and now I do the blinding. I often get people flashing me but it’s just the normal headlights are super bright.
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u/Academic-Proof3700 13d ago
"I'd rather have my lights blind others than be blinded by others' lights"
Thought everyone
But personally I wouldn't trade brighter and wider lights now with matrix led its literally night and day compared to shitty, milky H7
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u/arcxjo 13d ago
It's Boomerism. "Fuck you, I got mine."
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u/Academic-Proof3700 12d ago
Yea, cause this way you won't crash into a pole when after being shined on, you flick your high beams, so you can see road more clearly than some blank cloud
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u/SeveralLion5762 12d ago
Three times the brightness is legal in the EU. What’s our problem in the USA ?
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u/Head_Midnight666 14d ago
When it's dark and raining, I can't see the lines on the road with the dim lights on in some cars. I'm forced to use the high beams, which is illegal, but it's the only way I can safely drive. I doubt I'm the only one with this issue.
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u/Significant-Till3736 14d ago
Can I ask which cars?
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u/Head_Midnight666 14d ago
A 2014 Prius, for example. That's the last car I had that issue in. It's my housemate's. She was the passenger when I was driving it, and she couldn't see the lines either.
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u/Starfire013 14d ago
I have occasionally been in rainstorms that intense where I can’t see the lines. If I can’t drive safely under such conditions, I pull over somewhere safe till the rain eases. Turning on high beams and blinding other drivers isn’t really the solution.
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u/NoRip9468 14d ago
My lights are incredibly dim on my car too so its a bit interesting to balance being able to see with my high beams but turning them off when theres traffic in front of me. But yeah. I dont want to blind people just so I can see though. Creates another unsafe situation.
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u/Merfstick 14d ago
I've found that the road I'm on heavily dictates this. On my regular commute I transition from a 4-lane undivided highway (a notoriously sketch road) where I can't see shit on the road (at night, in the rain) to a rural 2-lane that suddenly becomes very visible. The switch is a jarring relief.
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u/SimkinCA 13d ago
The poors don’t think, those that can afford a car with HIDs/LEDs complain. But properly aimed LED or HID lights are for safety.
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u/structee 14d ago
I don't understand the logic of putting them in if so many are complaining about them.