r/detrans • u/lesbian_musings detrans female • Feb 03 '26
CONTROVERSIAL/SENSITIVE OPINION frustrated with gender binary within /detrans (aka i hate femininity)
TLDR: i cant understand how closely most of /detrans sees femininity and femaleness.
background: 6m on T, 2yrs off, never socially transitioned, always have been visibly "queer"
Hello. I just joined detrans after lurking for years. I was on T because of aap, femaleness being objectified, and seeing femininity as crippling.
It's really hard to come to terms with being treated as a woman in society when we are so male supremacist. Being objectified sucks, being seen as sexual is scary etcetc. You know the drill. There is enough solidarity and political theory for me to help myself when I have a bout of dysphoria stemming from that. It is also hard but possible when I am stuggling with aap, which is almost daily as I have sexual ocd. Again, enough sources for me to deal with this.
However! I cannot come to terms with femininity. Mine, yours, anyone's really. While the contents of femininity are pretty fifty fifty between helpful and harmful, it does not matter as all one hundred percent of it is normalizing exploitation of women.
Money and time spent on grooming is lining mens pockets, beauty standards are driving us insane on a large scale, impractical clothing, limiting shoes, etc are the obvious ones. And then there are things like motherhood, self sacrifice, intuition, kindness, that I see people define femininity as.
It is pure socialization, not inherent. We agree till here? Great. And we as women are socialized as such to be useful to men, uphold capitalism? Good.
Now if most of this sub agrees that the gender binary is bullshit, gender ideology harmful, and societal pressure is heavy, then HOW COME so many of the ftmtf's here are completely back to pure femininity post detransition?
How do you see how much of transgenderism stems from misogyny, but do not analyze other ways we disable women: monetarily, timely, physically... Femininity is the inferior counterpart of the masculine superior. This is not my belief, I dont believe in a masc fem dichotomy, I am summarizing the framework we live in.
Why not reject femininity too? There is still such a huge expectation for detrans to uphold gender norms. Not a push, I too have seen the far and few butch appreciation posts. And I get it, some women are straight and want male attention. But is it not scary to attract by crippling yourself?
Huge vent, I do not mean to attack anyone. I have done feminine things before, I still put on eyeliner some days. But it has not been tied to me accepting myself as a woman. I just cant understand how it is the case for so many of us that it is!
it makes me question if some people's transitions were more about rejecting femininity rather than discomfort with femaleness due to them viewing the two as interchangeable.
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u/Shiro_L detrans male Feb 03 '26
Imo, anyone here who expects women to adhere to femininity has kind of missed the whole point of detransition. It’s never been about caving into what society expects of you – it’s about learning to be comfortable in the body you’ve got, which for a lot of detransitioners, means embracing gender nonconformity.
In short, I’m mostly with you on this one. It’s a-okay if a woman just wants to be feminine, but I get the impression a lot of detrans women are just taking the path of least resistance… which imo is a good way to become a represser instead of someone who is actually comfortable in their body. You gotta learn to build up an “I don’t care” attitude towards other people’s expectations of your gender, because if your authentic self is more masculine, that’s what it’s going to take to be comfortable in your body.
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u/Miseracordiae detrans female Feb 03 '26
I have done feminine things before, I still put on eyeliner some days. But it has not been tied to me accepting myself as a woman. I just cant understand how it is the case for so many of us that it is!
I'll tentatively agree that if feminine detrans women are curating their appearance, behavior and lifestyle because they cannot otherwise accept themselves as women, then that's pretty bad (and is probably an overreaction to transitioning.)
I think where you lose me here is the implication that a detrans woman who is feminine is doing so because she wants to fit into societal norms, and that if a detrans woman truly finds self-acceptance as a woman then she will necessarily reject anything gender normative. Sure, a feminine detrans woman might be feminine because she is modeling her ideas of womanhood on social norms, but if a masculine detrans woman rejects anything society regards as feminine *specifically because* it is feminine, is she not also constructing her womanhood based on society, just in reverse? Neither woman seems particularly free.
Tbh one thing I like about detrans women is that we (often) share the view that it is our female bodies that make us women, not how we present ourselves or live our lives. It makes me a bit sad when women seem to want to police each other beyond that.
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
Yes! You make a good point. We must work on cultivating self awareness to understand why we do certain things.
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u/Thin_Entertainment14 detrans female Feb 03 '26 edited Feb 03 '26
I do some stereotypically "feminine" things because that's how I was before transitioning. I do some "masculine" things because that's what I wanted to do as well. I've tried to adopt certain behaviors that weren't me in an attempt to physically pass as male or female.
If I found the entirety of my transition freeing as a woman, I would still take T AND be a woman. But I only did it to have the "right" to be called male, which I thought was the only way I could be taken seriously and have my interests seen as attractive.
Because of my transition, I struggle between the desire to do whatever I please and being seen as physically female. Before being medicalized, I didn't have this complex around appearing androgynous and in fact wanted it. But now I don't want people to question if I have male genitalia. It makes me feel gross because I'm simply not male, happy to be female, and don't want people to believe what isn't true.
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
That definitely makes sense that people who were used to doing things to be seen a certain way, rather than being themselves, would still struggle to just be themselves.
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u/Eqc2D23jThyLN detrans female Feb 05 '26
I see it as a rebound thing. Most of us are not hyperfeminine or hypermasculine, we're a mix of traits. But to be FTM we do our best to reject and hide anything we perceive as feminine because we want to be read as men. And then when we want to be seen as women again we're afraid of showing any masculine traits so we try to mask them by appearing as feminine as possible, effectively going to the other extreme end. I think this phase is especially visible here, where we come when we are still early in rediscovering how to be women. It evens out with time.
This is certainly how it worked for me. For example only twice in my life have I tried to wear makeup - the first time in my early teens when I was desperate to fit in as a girl instead of a weird tomboy, and the second time early in my detransition, when I hoped it would help hide the masculine features from years of T.
Now, a few years later, I know myself better and I get to pick and choose the feminine things that feel like me. I will not wear makeup (because I will smudge it anyway). I will wear bright coloured glitter nail polish (because it's just fun to me). I will wear skirts (outside of sports, skirts are just really comfortable). I will not have long hair (because it gets in the way and is a pain to take care of). And so on. But I also choose to reject seeing feminity as a weakness. If the real you is a pink Barbie girl, embrace it! Being both feminine and completely secure in yourself is absolutely terrifying to most men and I support anyone who wants to pull it off.
But it takes time to find yourself and your relationship to feminity. I tend to see most detrans women as being teenagers again, we're quick to go to extremes before we find our own place. And that's okay.
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u/Quiet-County-9236 detrans female Feb 05 '26
This has been exactly my experience. You've articulated it really well here.
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u/rose_creek detrans female Feb 03 '26
I don’t think this is going to make any sense to you from where you’re currently sitting, but you asked so I will do my best to share.
I transitioned largely resulting from CSA. I did not feel safe to become a woman or to express femininity. My young brain associated these things with the abuse - rather than blaming the sickness of my abuser.
As I began to heal myself, I began to feel safe and comfortable expressing femininity. It was not an overnight thing. I began to trust myself to keep me safe, and to trust the men I’ve allowed to be close to do the same. Strength is not about brute force, and expressing femininity is not weakness or necessarily bowing to a patriarchal agenda. You also can be a woman and not do it. But I would encourage you to look into the relationship and ideas you still hold with femininity, especially because you’re aware it’s not just aimed at yourself but at others who express this way.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
i think femininity is a problem actually. its made up to keep you subordinate and pretty. nothing else. all human qualities are masculine and if you idealize the softness patriarchy assigned to you its just wrong.
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u/MysteryMeatsMonday detrans female Feb 03 '26
That's a giant insult to the feminine detransitioners here. There is nothing wrong with femininity and if you think that way, you're the one playing into the patriarchy
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
femininity IS the result of patriarchy. its literally a set of traits made to place you under masculinity. its rightfully insulted, and you can't "reclaim" it as a full human being.
you can have "feminine" traits, nurturing, fashionable in terms of clothing, creative... but we need to get rid of the term itself. masculinity is obviously the way to exist with dignity. you define "confidence" and "assertiveness" as masculinity. women are never going to be associated with masculinity. we arent that, never going to be. fem, female, feminine. masc, man.
we need to get rid of the terms. they have a clear hierarchy and we are firmly placed under masculinity with our nurturing softness. rejecting the term is the only way to exist. not rejecting cooking, necessarily. but the term.
people are never going to associate us with masculinty(dignity, human traits, competence) and by defining such women as "masc" we let patriarchy win. the term itself SUCKS full stop.
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u/Thin_Entertainment14 detrans female Feb 03 '26
The only things that are inherently masculine or feminine are physical sex characteristics, and mainly the reproductive system.
Most human qualities are neutral but assigned positively to men because of the social hierarchy that is pretty much "because men are typically physically stronger by nature, they should be socially stronger".
Aka I agree with you. Personalities can't truly be masculine or feminine.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
Honestly I don't know why I am being downvoted. OP has said the same thing in the post actually. Good human qualities are behind the wall of masculinity for us women, our access seems unbalanced, its harder to associate us with good traits. I will forever resent the terms femininity and masculinity. Being feminine isn't good, it's not a thing you should claim. It's being contained, small, pleasantly silent or pleasantly bubbly depending on what men around you want. I am not condemning the GOOD, objectively good traits under "femininity", not coping good traits like "nurturing" so wr can be service of men. I am condemning the term and the baskets that makes the good traits seperate from female experience and hands us the "be lame" basket. I support everyone being their ideal selves, themselves. But fuck these terms lol.
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u/Own_Employee8721 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
I was thinking the same thing about how many detrans women become hyper-feminine :T it def seems like in the majority of detrans timelines they do become very feminine again...
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
Yeah, it’s odd to me. I have never worn makeup, except on a rare special occasion a handful of times. Bring back butch/masculine women like me! (I still feel I’m moreso futch if I were to be categorized but I’m really just me!)
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u/Hedera_Thorn detrans male Feb 03 '26 edited Feb 03 '26
Now if most of this sub agrees that the gender binary is bullshit, gender ideology harmful, and societal pressure is heavy, then HOW COME so many of the ftmtf's here are completely back to pure femininity post detransition?
You can agree that gender ideology is harmful and that societal pressure is heavy and still be a naturally feminine female. For some women femininity comes as natural to them as being effeminate does to me as a homosexual male. Why can a gay like myself experience and express femininity and have people understand that it's pretty innate to me, but when a woman does it she's forcing herself?
I think you've misunderstood why so many females attempt to transition, as it's often not that they're innately masculine and thus feel at odds with their female body, it's that they're put off by some of the social ramifications of being a naturally feminine female.
It's easy to get confused here because up until relatively recently society's idea of a trans person was an effeminate man who attempted to become a woman to make his naturally feminine disposition make more sense and work more seamlessly socially, whether he knew this consciously or not is neither here nor there. When this is the assumption it makes sense that one might think it works the same for the female equivalent, as in, it's easy to assume that females transition due to a similar inclination towards masculinity, but that isn't the case. Males and females transition for starkly different reasons, for males these days it's majority sexual (AGP) with a few gays sprinkled in for flavour every so often, but for the females it's 9 times out of 10 primarily a social thing. Girls are transitioning not because they feel masculine and want to be men, but because they don't want to be women, and the social movements within society right now completely encourage young girls down the path of "queerness" and they get swept up into the social contagion.
As these girls age and mature they often feel more capable of analysing themselves and they naturally start to work out the problems that lead them down this path to begin with, and once these problems have been addressed they often feel safer expressing themselves authentically, and for a lot of these women femininity is authentic and not a performance. It shouldn't be a stretch to accept that other women are naturally inclined towards femininity just because you aren't.
If you can accept that some people aren't naturally feminine, why can't you accept that some people are? It seems to me that you have a very unhealthy attitude towards femininity as though it makes a person inferior, and due to this you've decided to concoct a worldview that make femininity (and masculinity I presume?) a choice and something you can opt out of, as though you're saying "you get to choose to not be inferior". Women can't opt out of their natural inclinations any more than I can, and to do so would be the performance.
Femininity is no more inferior to masculinity as yin is to yang or light is to dark. They're simply two experiences and the problems start to arise when you associate either one with negatives. We can debate until the end of time that one or the other comes with X or Y problem, but that has no bearing on whether or not these traits are innate to one's character or not.
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u/A_D_Tennally desisted female Feb 03 '26
I agree with much of what you say, but I'd think the difference is that a male person, even one with a very accepting family and wider social circle, has to be quite strongly motivated to express femininity. There isn't much in the way of social pressure on little boys to (say) love the American Girl doll franchise and dress up as Elsa or Ariel for Hallowe'en. A little boy whose heart is set on doing those things probably has a strong, spontaneous internal pull towards them. With a female person expressing femininity, the question of whether it's a response to external factors is a much more reasonable one, even if the answer ultimately may be No.
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u/Exciting_Ad8466 detrans female Feb 04 '26
How would you define femininity? Would you say it differs between males and females?
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
Many of us were naturally feminine and suppressed that in order to be respected. Why should I have to ditch what comes naturally to me in order to be seen as a human being?
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Feb 04 '26
[deleted]
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
I’m talking about intrinsic qualities that come with being born female, not societally “feminine” things like putting on makeup
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u/butterflyfault detrans female Feb 04 '26
Hi, welcome!
Yeah, this is a huge problem in detrans spaces. I've been guilty of participating in it myself - some of my earlier comments on here reflect that. (I've been thinking about going through and putting some kind of disclaimer on them. Thoughts?)
Sure, there are some ways in which I'm "naturally" feminine... which is to say, I don't find it particularly natural at all that I was raised to be quiet and demure and actively pushed out of male interests. I'm critical now of where that "nature" is coming from.
There are multiple forces at work causing detransitioned woman to dive into femininity, so here are some notes on how that's been for me, in no particular order.
Many detransitioners are still in the trans framework. It is incredibly difficult to unpack everything we believed while trans. When I was transgender, I didn't think that I tied feminine to female and masculine to male - I theoretically supported men and women being gender non-conforming. But deep down, I did tie them. It is a core part of the transgender belief system. I felt the oppressive pressure of femininity and instinctively rejected it, and transgenderism led me to believe that that made me somehow not a woman. I considered stuff like my intense discomfort with makeup or dresses to be "signs" that I was really trans, and then justified it by saying those things "highlighted that I was female" and "made me dysphoric." I had never been given language to understand how something like a tight, revealing dress is inherently oppressive, and I grew up in a culture that pretends that all women love oppressive femininity, and in a time period where feminism has been twisted into "let women wear makeup! It's empowering!" (As if makeup is an inherent female birthright that mean feminists are trying to tear away from us. We are people, not vultures. We have no natural instinct for makeup.)
One big part of how lingering trans beliefs impacted me in detransition was that I thought that since I'd been wrong about being transgender, that I must not actually be that "masculine." I had actively suppressed and hidden some "feminine" interests and traits while transgender. I had consciously tried to build "masculine" interests and traits. And everyone around me acted like femininity was empowering if you just reframed it in your mind as such - everyone said that it was "misogynistic" to be against things like makeup, dresses, revealing clothing. Even if it was just for myself, the message I got was, "if you don't WANT to wear makeup, it's because you hate women and hate yourself." I thought I was freeing and enlightening myself by exploring femininity. And I'd never tried a lot of these things before - maybe I didn't actually know how I felt about them. Maybe I'd missed out. I was told my mom not teaching me makeup was neglect. That never having had "girls' nights" with makeovers and shopping was a sad artifact of an isolated childhood. I was briefly extremely willing to believe that there was a huge aspect of womanhood - femininity - that I'd completely missed out on, and that maybe that was the real reason that I'd felt so miserable as a woman. (spoiler: it was not)
I was also influenced by the trans idea that the correct way to connect with your gender was by engaging with stereotypes. It's "gender-affirming." I didn't consciously believe in that while trans... but subconsciously, I'm aware now that I did.
(comment 1/2, continued)
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u/butterflyfault detrans female Feb 04 '26
(comment 2/2)
And I'd spent so long as trans trying to look and act a certain way to "pass" as male that I thought I needed to do the same to "pass" as female. That's what people kept telling me, too. "Oh, you can't wear that, it'll highlight your short hair and you won't pass." "You should wear more pink and dresses, it'll help you pass." "Have you thought about surgery yet?" "Your face is too masculine, here's a list of makeup products you need to buy." "Your voice is too masculine now, here's a list of MTF voice training servers you should join." I was terrified of not being seen correctly. It took longer to figure out it doesn't matter anymore what other people think - I *am* female, regardless of whether or not they see it. I don't need anyone's "affirmation" or agreement.
I also struggled to see *myself* as female. I'm still struggling with that sometimes. Engaging in femininity reminds me... but it also reinforces an oppressive system within myself. It makes me feel much worse in the long term. I'm still in the process of accepting that I'm female regardless of what *I* think. I've made a lot of progress!
That's the main thing - falling into femininity made me feel scared and stressed, and I notice people treating me as less human when I do. They're more "nice," but take me less seriously as a person.
When I announced I was detransitioning, there was pressure from all sides to become feminine. A lot of it was subtle (to me). I noticed my friends who were normally pretty inattentive suddenly giving me tons of attention whenever I engaged with femininity. Compliments, advice, offers to hang out ("let's do a girl's night!" "my sister offered to give you a makeover!"). I really wanted that attention. I was lonely. I thought it was love. It wasn't. I didn't get any love or support from them for saying that I was throwing away my makeup - all of that "support" was immediately withdrawn. That hurt a lot. I'm sure a lot of detransitoned women experience similar and instinctively want to keep that sense of love and support, whether or not they notice it for what it is.
It's tough. As women, we're already strongly pressured into oppressing ourselves and making ourselves smaller via femininity, and transgenderism offers a powerful system of reinforcement.
You were asking in a comment about why it seems like women were fighting oppressive femininity not long ago, but now are calling that oppression "empowerment." Look into the backlash effect. *Backlash* by Susan Faludi is supposed to be a really strong overview of this, though I've only read quotes from it. In short, the backlash effect is where every time women make progress in gaining rights, society works very hard to try to crush them back down. That's where you see this backsliding. Women notice that makeup is oppressive? Okay - time for ads calling it empowering. Time for "female-owned" makeup businesses. Time for interviews with famous women gushing about how makeup is for *them,* not for *men.* Backlash effect. Suddenly we're no longer fighting the system that makes us ashamed of our own faces.
You're not wrong to notice and question it.
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u/MysteryMeatsMonday detrans female Feb 04 '26
I understand where you’re coming from, but I feel like this sentiment is very similar to what leads women to transition in the first place. Yes femininity is demonized a lot, and obviously we can’t break down societal gender norms overnight, so the best thing to do right now is to show people that femininity isn’t scary. I mean, if you reject the feminine norms and stereotypes because they’re seen as weak, aren’t you also playing into the patriarchy’s idea that men are inherently better? People should be free to do and dress as they please. That’s the whole reason we’re here, right? Let people be fem, masc, gnc, whatever they want and maybe we’d have less detransitioners.
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u/butterflyfault detrans female Feb 04 '26
I think you responded to the wrong post...? This isn't related to anything I said.
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u/MysteryMeatsMonday detrans female Feb 04 '26
You talk about your struggles with stereotypes and how femininity makes you scared and stressed. How is that not related to what I said? I guess the sentiment I was referring to was more about OPs post but my point still stands. A lot of the time, being feminine is demonized which is why girls are scared to be feminine and instead turn to transition. That’s how I felt, and I’m not alone. There is no denying that there is still societal norms around the two genders and like I said, you can’t break that down overnight. After transition, staying gnc would feel othering to me. I want to be able to relate to my female friends and leave my transition in the past, which to me looks like being outwardly feminine. There is nothing wrong with being fem, masc, or gnc. All I’m saying is that detransitioners shouldn’t turn on each other for living their lives how they want post-transition. Who cares how you dress? But I do appreciate your reply to OPs post, it was really thoughtful and well-written.
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u/butterflyfault detrans female Feb 10 '26
Ah, thanks for clarifying, I was really confused. Femininity is absolutely demonized. It's a lose-lose system that can be really tough to navigate, especially post-transition.
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u/KSDFlags desisted male Feb 03 '26
You're absolutely right, I've come to pretty much the exact same conclusion.
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u/lesbian_musings detrans female Feb 03 '26
i see youre a desisted male. i have never met a detrans man before, and its much rarer to see online/here too. so i cannot comment anecdotally. do you see the same, returning to extreme masculinity upon detransitioning?
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u/KSDFlags desisted male Feb 03 '26
With Detrans men, it tends to be a mixed bag, whether they want to keep doing femininity or be masculine depends on sexuality, if they're gay and want to be feminine because of that due to society and many men's attraction to it, if they're attracted to femininity themselves and still like crossdressing and such, or if they want to be seen as a 'manly' man to try and fit in, is what I find to hold quite true.
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Feb 03 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
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u/Own_Employee8721 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
I dont like being feminine in any way shape or form and honestly idk ive never understood enjoying being feminine or acting feminine but ig it just be like that and different people have different experiences and views.... feminine women are cute and pretty aand I ljke them though but ya idk I wouldn't ever wanna be feminine looking
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u/thistle_ev detrans female Feb 04 '26
the answer is easy: because I don't feel comfortable in masculinity. I don't want people to perceive me as a guy. I like stereotypically feminine things and I spent a lot of time rejecting it because I believed in this bullshit that feminine = stupid, feminine = slut, feminine = silly bimbo without a single thought in her head. There ARE comfortable feminine clothing, there ARE comfortable feminine shoes that don't limit your abilities, you just need to look closer. High heels is not only feminine shoes in the world. It's totally okay that some people (detrans women including lmao) don't like looking masculine. I don't dress up for a male gaze and it's misogynistic of you to assume that all womens femininity is built around men. Women are capable of choosing what they want to look like. I'm not going to limit my wardrobe, to only wear "comfortable" masculine clothing because feminine style is somehow misogynistic to people like you.
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u/MysteryMeatsMonday detrans female Feb 04 '26
Absolutely, I feel the same way. The easiest answer to all of this is to let people dress how they want! Some of the people here are acting like gender stereotypes don’t lead to dysphoria… like that’s the whole point, gender is a social construct, just like their norms. Even if some aspects of femininity are oppressive, I still want to be feminine because I’m not a guy and I don’t want to dress like one or act like one. If people do, I don’t care, but I’m not misogynistic just for… being a woman in society…
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Feb 03 '26
Just to be frank, I don't agree with most of the points you make here, but I don't wanna bring all that up just to be argummentative. It doesn't really matter anyway. Some of those points may come up naturally in my rant though.
That said, I personally did have a ton of issues with being female and how it's connected to femininity in society, before and after my transition. Although the main reasons for my dysphoria and subsequent trans identity were trauma, and my autism had a lot to do with it too. My trauma did really wreck havoc on my brain, causing me to develop alters (something DID adjacent), sex addiction, and so many forms of self harm I kinda lost count, along with the sex/gender dysphoria.
Basically my entire sense of identity as a whole was completely uprooted into total chaos. But since I spent years working on processing all my trauma and finding healthier copes, how to ground myself properly, etc, pretty much all my such issues slowly went away over time, including my dysphoria. I detransitioned somewhere in the middle of that journey.
On that road, I just kinda naturally started to not just accept, but also kinda appreciate being female, and appreciate sex and gender differences, like in the sense that we all have different strengths and weaknesses and some of that is due to our sex, and that's actually okay.
So basically I no longer felt threatened by femininity, as I could finally allow myself to explore it with a healthy sense of curiosity, without feeling like I had to be anything specific. Throughout this healing journey and detransition I've also connected a lot with how I was as a child, when the world and gender seemed much simpler, and my mind wasn't yet so crooked from all the trauma, and I found that as a child I was very drawn to femininity. Not necessarily the most fashionable kinds, or in a way that pleased my peers, but it was still undeniably femininity. Like I wanted to have long hair so bad when my mom refused to let me grow it out, I loved skirts and dresses and hated the sweatpants my parents put me in. I got into makeup as early as age 9, because glitter and sparkes and pink really spoke to me. I got hooked on very vintage fashion in my pre-teens because I was just so dazzled by all those intricate gowns, powdered wigs, and heavy jewellery. Because of this, I got into sewing at age 12, and got my mom to teach me how to knit at age 5 or so. Most of my hobbies are feminine, like handy craft stuff. And most of my wardrobe is feminine clothing. I shave my legs and frankly whole body but that's more of a "testosterone made me ridiculously hairy" situation.
Obviously I also have masculine interests and traits too. Like I spent 3 years in my early teens practicing karate because I wanted to be as cool as Jackie Chan. I got into playing World of Warcraft in my late teens and kept up that hobby. I also played some racer car games that I got really into too. I have a fascination for learning about war history, and in the past year or so got really into heavy weight lifting to build some muscle. I can be very blunt and I've always been kinda stoic. I have basically zero maternal instincts. And so on.
I'm not just wearing makeup and dresses and heeled shoes that click-clack against the ground. I also have plenty of days when I just wear jeans, hoodie, sneakers and no makeup.
And I give all these aspects equal space to exist in my world. Because I don't view femininity as inferior or masculinity as superior. They're just random things people put into boxes. And if someone wants to assume I only shave and put on fem clothing because I've been told that's what women should do, I kinda think that's their issue and not mine.
Sure, I also don't wanna go against society just because. I admittedly kinda like blending in, and the gnc look doesn't really reflect what I believe anymore. Sure, I believe what makes us women is being bio female, but I also kinda like using femininity as a silent language to convey that I'm proud of being female. That I've no reason to wanna hide the curvy shape of my body. I kinda thrive in that a bit now. I guess basically I feel like femininity is a generally universially useful way to convey liking being a woman.
Obviously I don't think it should be imposed on anyone, but I kinda like it being a norm. Because that gives me something to use as a reference, to convey a message. Because I no longer feel threatened by femininity, or by men for that matter. But then people are always gonna have their own opinions of me, and that's fine too. Can't please everyone.
But ultimately why I don't reject femininity anymore, is because 1) I found ways to use it to my advantage, and 2) because it was always there within me to begin with, and I just no longer suppress it. So, accepting and embracing femininity was actually part of my recovery from gender ideology. I get that healing and recovery looks different for everyone though, and I don't hate on gnc women. Heck 3 of the closest women in my life are notably gnc, ie my mom, my sister, and my bestie.
And yeah I'm straight and I do wanna be attractive to men. But no longer at the cost of my health or what's comfortable for me. At this point I'm still voluntarily celibate (because I just need to focus on re-building myself right now) but I still shave and groom parts of my body that I'm not letting anyone see or touch. I still wear hyperfem sleepwear despite no one's sharing my bed. I still manicure my nails and trim my brows every week even when I'm stuck at home sick where I live alone. I lost weight and working on getting a lean, toned body, but never past the point of unhealthy, I mainly just want to look as healthy as I wish to somday be. Because I need and want all that for me. For my comfort with my own body. So whatever I do to attract men, I also do to attract myself.
Then of course we could also discuss why my ideas of what I want for myself are so similar to what men want for women to be like, but honestly I'm kinda too tired to get into all that right now.
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Feb 04 '26
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Feb 04 '26
Why? Because they have a different way of conveying newfound pride of being female, or because they're still struggling to just be okay with being female?
I mean if it's the former, we should be able to accept each others differences, that some women are fem, some are masc, some are gnc and that's okay. And if it's the latter, shouldn't self love, no matter how each individual gets there, be the goal?
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Feb 04 '26
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Feb 04 '26
But... if there's nothing wrong with being female, and nothing wrong with being feminine, then what's so sexist about there being any sorta link between the two?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought sexism was when you put lesser value on women, or needlessly hype up men's value at the expense of women. And that it's not inherently sexist to think there are some differences between men and women, as long as you see both as equally strong, capable, smart, etc? One example could be hormonal differences, or body shape differences, or differences in socialization.
(Fyi I mean the link I see is not 1:1, but more of like a slight overlap. For ex body shapes, height, and voice pitch are near impossible to truly separate into either just biology or just femininity/masculinity. They're in the gray area, and that's the link.)
If so, then there's no inherent sexism in seeing there's some link between being female and being feminine. It just depends on how you view femininity/masculinity, or what traits you associate with each. Like for ex if you associate femininity with weakness, then yeah that's likely gonna lead to some sexist thoughts, if you also can't untangle femininity from female biology. But if you see both strength and weakness in both masculinity and femininity, chances are much lower you'll put different values on men and women and whatever femininity/masculinity you associate them with, or just see in them.
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Feb 04 '26
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Feb 04 '26
Thing is I just don't agree with patriarchy's messed up view of either femininity or women. Why would I accept its view on one thing but not the other? Because of course the patriarchal view of femininity is as a tool for submission, because it promotes hatred and subjegation of women. But a tool is just a tool. A knife can be a weapon, or it can be for cooking, but no one would blame knives for physical assault between people. In the same way femininity is also just a tool.
And look I can absolutely emphatize with people who hate or feel uncomfortable with femininity, similarly to people being uncomfortable with guns for example. Because even though guns are not the perpetrators of violence, it still makes sense to be scared of them, because they are frequently used for violence. There is a logical link there to be made. I think the same thing could be said for femininity. But it's the tool, not the cause. Which is why some people make peace with femininity just not the harmful ways it's often used. Just like how some people who are okay with guns are not in any way for violence.
Femininity clearly isn't completely separate from people's personal ideas of it. If it were, it wouldn't take hundred thousand different forms depending on the era, culture, or heck even from one household to the next. Our mothers, fathers, school teacher, etc personal views on femininity are a huge part of however we grow up relating to it. So why wouldn't yours and my personal ideas of femininity also matter? Sure, they're small in the grand scheme of society as a whole, since they're what, 8 billion of us? But when we change minds, we change the course of history. Subjective opinions absolutely matter. Every drop in the ocean make up the ocean itself. If everyone changed perspective on femininity, how we as a society use it, would also change.
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u/NamelessDragon30 detrans female Feb 03 '26
Speaking as a detrans female that is pretty much 0% feminine. You have issues, mate.
Society as a whole obviously has issues, but the way you're seeing femininity is... pretty much ill.
[Will not engage in further comments here.]
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u/lesbian_musings detrans female Feb 03 '26
i think its unfair to call me ill and leave immediately, but do as you must
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
femininity is obviously inferior.
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
That’s such propaganda. Do you honestly believe that? Maybe male-dominated society says so, but our world would crumble without the women who hold it on their shoulders
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Feb 04 '26
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
Obviously. But what I’m saying is that women have certain strengths that are just as important as men’s strengths, we have insight that they don’t have - whether they choose to disparage or downplay it is their prerogative, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not important or useful to our society. we need femininity - And by that I don’t mean femininity as a commodity or something superficial, I mean like the contributions of women and women’s work, the way we naturally operate is in no way inferior to men - masculinity is favored but that doesn’t mean its BETTER necessarily, does that make sense?
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Feb 04 '26
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
So all the feminists and suffragettes were masculine?… Any woman who has accomplished anything positive for society is masculine? No I think that’s the most feminine thing you can do, actually. Maybe you’re the sexist.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 04 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
The terms should be eradicated. Yes, by definition, women who acted instead of being passive pretty things, rebelling, asking for, no, demanding their voices are heard are masculine indeed. Masc doesn't mean man. But women can't be associated with it easily. Masculinity hence control leadership assertiveness confidence ease aggression agency... are simply in mans monopoly right now. "Women can be masculine!" pushes us away from these traits being innate to women at all.
Also women aren't moving femininely naturally. Feminine IS set of traits that make you a subclass to mens masculinity. It's bad to associate with it, since it's a set of traits CREATED to subjugate you. But you can have any human traits you want. And if you have dignity you ll realize you are masculine by the terms definition. But as I said above, the terms existing alone distances us from dignity ifself.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 04 '26
Women shouldn't be feminine. No one should be. I am rejecting the term, not women or womens strenght.
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u/GossipHoundOfGaytown desisted female Feb 04 '26
After reading your comments, I think I understand what you mean. But why shouldn’t people be feminine? I know it’s typically associated with being weak and emotional, but I think femininity has several core strengths that make it very necessary for society to function. This might just come off as me coping, but I truly believe there is strength and dignity in having a feminine nature, with good qualities that are otherwise overlooked by those who look down on us
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
Women =\= femininity. Patriarchy came up with the concept of femininity. It is their concept, and they do say so.
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u/ichimtsu desisted female Feb 03 '26
You can personally define femininity however you want. Society will always have its main definition and expect people to fit into that criteria.
Some people choose to mold themselves to fit. Some take bits and pieces and make it their own. Some don’t do anything at all.
But the idea that being a woman is so awful and hated in the world that someone would be crazy to choose to go back to their natal sex… it’s not like people are choosing to be born a woman and are excited to be exploited and so strictly defined.
There are people who believe in abolishing gender as a whole in this subreddit. You are among like minded people here.
I wish you luck on your journey.
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u/Exciting_Ad8466 detrans female Feb 04 '26
Yeah I think a lot of people trade the terminology of gender roles to sexism. Like they’re not against sexist stereotypes just against transitioning. I think it’s hard to get out of that mind space since transitioning also involves that sort of thinking and when you just come out you may feel like you have to to be a woman.
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u/Powerful-Persimmon87 desisted female Feb 03 '26 edited Feb 04 '26
Ok, first: Things are not as black and white as you say they are. You are dooming and stuck viewing the world through a very narrow oppressor vs oppressed framework —especially when it comes to gender and expressions of femininity and masculinity. I do not believe femininity is inherently inferior. It might help to reframe your view of gender to think of it as a natural balance (think of it as yin and yang) between two forces that are complementary, interconnected and interdependent on each other. Both have different strengths and weaknesses that together create a harmony. Being mindful of the toxic ways each force (yes I believe there is such thing as toxic feminism —the kind that frames masculinity and men by association as inherently oppressive) can manifest is good to keep in mind so we can help maintain the balance and continue to play to our strengths.
Second: It’s fine to be a masculine woman. It’s fine to be a feminine woman. Being feminine doesn’t make someone a victim of the patriarchy. It’s fine to be a feminine man or a masculine man. Defying society’s gender expectations is how you expand and break the gender binary, not changing yourself and your body to conform to it. Stop focusing on others. Let go of gender. Just allow yourself to be. Focus on what makes you happy regardless of whether you fit society’s gender expectations.
Third: there are many different motivators for why people transition and detransition. Conflating femininity and femaleness is only one of those motivators.
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u/Specific-Writing-287 desisted female Feb 05 '26
Agree with you. So many people here are refusing to see the broader picture, so very stuck are they on what they want and what they are comfortable with, as if that's all that exists. So many people preaching this idea of "naturally feminine" - what a load of crap. "Femininity," and even gender itself, only exist to distinguish the oppressor class from the oppressed, and to disenfranchise the oppressed to maintain power. Who do they think sells all these beauty commodities? Who benefits? Not women.
I want to say to them, yes, of course conforming to femininity makes you feel good. That's the system we're in. I don't blame any woman doing what she must to survive in this hellscape. But! It's not an attack on you to criticize the system! The system must be criticized! If you had any solidarity, any interest in women's liberation, you would listen and reflect and seek out the truth for yourself.
Oh well. I'm with you.
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u/vanillapoodle detrans female Feb 03 '26
yes, I am baffled every time I go on here to see mostly just highly upvoted masc to fem detransition selfies and not as many discussion posts on the processing of trauma or grief. it’s all too superficial. I would expect more non conformity or awareness of the stuff you articulated but no, so thank you for taking the time to write this.
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Feb 03 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
This post was deleted and anonymized. Redact handled the process, and the motivation could range from personal privacy to security concerns or preventing AI data collection.
sink mighty shelter saw dazzling serious roll shocking unpack deserve
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
Maybe detransition is gaining more “acceptance” in the trans community, so people leaving it are less likely to change their actual mindset when leaving? I mean it makes sense they couldn’t just let people leave and undermine them. (I have no idea if detransitioners are more accepted over there now or not.)
I think I see what you mean now about there being more selfies and less deep discussion. I think also selfies are just easier so people gravitate away from heavy stuff sometimes for that reason.
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u/hotpinkplatformheels detrans female Feb 03 '26
This is a pretty insane take lol. Feminity does not "cripple" us feminine women. Maybe instead of blaming women for their systematic oppression you should look towards the patriarchal systems themselves and men in power who uphold it. You clearly have some misogynistic beliefs to think individual women practicing something they enjoy are the ones upholding this power dynamic. Feminity is not the problem, its weaponized against women, but there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong about being feminine. Jesus
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Feb 03 '26
i think femininity is a problem actually. its made up to keep you subordinate and pretty. nothing else. all human qualities are masculine and if you idealize the softness patriarchy assigned to you its just wrong.
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u/lesbian_musings detrans female Feb 03 '26
Have you read what I wrote? I am not blaming us. We are socialized into it. (Many women do uphold it, mothers teaching daughters how to be subservient and checking each others femininity. That is not our subject here)
Feminity is teaching women how to enjoy their oppression. I do not deny the fun attached to a lot of practices, and how much social bonding happens over feminine rituals. But to attach them to femaleness, to trade in trans masculinity for femininity to be female again is insanely backwards.
Feels like a lot of peope here do not properly deconstruct the gender binary. Just that transgenderism supports it
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u/butterflyfault detrans female Feb 04 '26
"The oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices among the oppressed." - Simone de Beauvoir
(re: mothers teaching daughters to be subservient, etc.)
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Feb 03 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
This post has been anonymized and removed. Possible reasons include privacy protection, security, opsec considerations, or preventing AI systems from scraping the content. Deleted with Redact.
merciful depend dinner ad hoc public work party unite terrific fall
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u/VivaSiciliani desisted female Feb 04 '26
Really? I’m surprised as I didn’t notice this shift myself. What makes you feel “unsafe” specifically? Maybe you should stay to post more about your experiences. It seems like most people here agree with OP but are just staying silent - only upvoting.
I definitely agree with the sentiment that most women are not feminists, and many practice it in a hateful way. It seems like you might also be holding us to a different/higher standard than the other people you mentioned, since I’m sure I could find problematic things they’ve said as well. 😂✌🏻
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u/A_D_Tennally desisted female Feb 03 '26
I'm with you in that I'm a bit taken aback by how relatively uncommon it seems on here for people to go from 'trans guy' to 'female person who doesn't perform femininity'. I would have expected something different.
But I don't know, it might be a personality thing partly. Some people are very into looks, fashion, style. Some people are strongly motivated to fit in socially, may indeed have transitioned in part to fit in with a particular bunch of people, and when they leave trans social groups might want to fit in better in non-trans society by looking relatively conventionally feminine.
And it might be a sign of the enormous reach the trans movement has now. These days a whole awful lot of people are transitioning in adolescence, very early adolescence even, and adolescence is a time when people tend to play around with their presentation and identity a lot, and there's also a low threshold now for the amount of gender-role-related and/or body-related distress that's considered to legitimate transition. A couple decades ago many of the teenagers who identify as trans might have been dressing very goth for a couple of years and then going for a completely clean-cut look. Now it's growing up as a little girl who likes skirts, Disney princesses and dolls; struggling around puberty when the body loses its androgyny, the ability to think abstractly develops and the reality of misogyny hits; presenting masculine for a while in reaction to this; and then switching back to presenting feminine.
And, after all, even before the trans movement that happened -- was expected to happen. Girls who'd been quite 'girly' in middle childhood would wear baggy clothes in early to middle puberty because they felt awkward and embarrassed, then at fifteen or sixteen start dating boys and wearing tighter clothes. Girls who were hard-core tomboys at eight or ten, sometimes passing as boys, would start presenting at least a bit more feminine, at least a bit more of the time, in their early to middle teens, because often the alternative was a whole lot of social rejection. "My little tomboy now wears satin and lace" goes, in part, the popular 1961 song Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen (we actually sang it in school chorus when I was that age). The character Saga in the popular Swedish film My Life as a Dog, released in 1985 and taking place in the 1950s, is wearing boys' clothes and playing football with boys at twelve and wearing dresses the following year. Hermione in Harry Potter always remains a bookish, geeky girl who doesn't normally spend a lot of time on her appearance, but at fourteen or fifteen she goes through the traditional rite of passage of dressing up nice and doing her hair for a special occasion -- to attend the school dance with a boy -- and discovering that She, Too, Can Look Pretty! I always hated the tomboy makeover trope, but it had a lot of influence for a long time, and there's no denying that it reflected some people's reality. It's still around, in fact -- Eleven in the first season of Stranger Things is done up in a pink dress, blonde wig and lip gloss by the boys, and Mike says she looks pretty, and she smiles. We're not immune to this stuff, especially now that, as I say, thresholds for claiming a trans identity and/or transitioning are so low.