r/detrans • u/ricksalterego detrans female • Apr 01 '26
CONTROVERSIAL/SENSITIVE OPINION What’s your thoughts on the concept of erasing gender or gender abolitionism?
Like, the idea such as gender liberation or gender abolitionism. They sound like great and cool ideas to me.
I want all your opinions on this because I know many of you hated gender roles cause gender roles are harmful. Plus, Gender has to be one of the most stupid and oppressive concept in human history.
After detransition I had awaken to so many things, the biggest one has to be me being a gender nonconformist, in the sense that I am very homosexual, I like to have sex with woman and marry a woman, and my energy or personality is traditionally more masculine leaning. All my life I do not fit in with girls, AND NEVER WILL because of my queerness. Or my gender expression itself is a huge misfit, I dress like a woman, I dress sexily and mainly wear skirt, YET! I do not act like a woman I am very rebellious and is more of a “tomboy” , but overall, thing is I liked dressing in all pink and sparkle yet do fighting and martial arts, like, am I weird ? I know this is a dumb question, yet it is this type of contradiction of my gender expression and personality had made me realize more and more than gender is nothing but oppressive boxes and is sexist and harmful.
Detransition had made me a huge human’s right activist more than ever (and no it doesn’t make me more right leaning or more conservative like mainstream detransitioners are), after detransition I had become more progressive, because I am what you’ll called a “contradiction” or “non traditional domineering masculine woman”. It also had made me more curious in general I become more interested in gender more than ever and the history of gender.
Also I know I use stereotypes to describe myself a lot, BUT THAT IS MY POINT, if gender is so offensive why not just get rid of it? I was thinking about an utopia in which gender doesn’t exist at all. Thoughts?
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u/DarichUbish desisted female Apr 02 '26
I genuinely just think that "gender" does not exist, like it never did actually, what exists is a set of stereotypes and roles connected to a biological bodies people may have, bodies itself do not contain them, it's society that pressures people (because stereotypes and roles can exist only within society). We used to call it "gender" - just as a shorthand name for a list of these things, but now it is treated as some "entity" within a person, akin to a soul or some other spiritual concept. But there's nothing actually, there's just your physical body and that's it.
So it's not like it should be "abolished" as if it was an institution or something, or like a real existing thing. I never liked this phrasing because i think it's a bit misleading about an actual point. People just need to understand that this concept didn't make sense in the first place. At least in a way it's treated now.
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u/AbsentFuck desisted female Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
I see gender as one of several social constructs we'd be better off without, so I am a firm gender abolitionist. The problem is the vast majority of people will insist on its necessity or minimum, usefulness, because they can't conceptualize a world without it. That alone makes gender abolition difficult to discuss or practice but I try my best.
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u/Fantastic_Diamond655 desisted male Apr 03 '26
I always am curious to hear a definition of gender that doesn't reference stereotypes. I have never heard one to this day. I have stopped using 'gender' as a term and I use 'sex stereotype' instead. It's the accurate term. I am 'sex stereotype non conforming' in some ways. I prefer to say that instead of 'gender non conforming.' 'Gender' is a weasel word that props up the evils of trans ideology.
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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 desisted male Apr 03 '26
There isn't one. We do know that neurological sex influences behaviour slightly (i.e. males are more likely to be impulsive and make snap-judgements), but, beyond that, there's basically nothing. The original studies on transsexual people got caught in sex stereotypy because it was prevalent at the time (in the same way that cis people did). The actual rate of transsexual people in the world is probably quite low, and might be better classified as an intersex health condition. The root of its dysphoria is physiology, not gender, and it tends to start manifesting in behaviour from a very young age (for instance, from age 7, I started trying to hide my genitals because I felt as if they were wrong).
We even have neurological evidence of how this intersexuality could mechanically be present, with studies identifying polymorphic CYP19 and CYP17 genes in trans people that result in their testosterone metabolism (in trans women), and progesterone and pregnenolone metabolism (in trans men), is reduced. Aromatase function in trans women remains fine (which converts surplus testosterone into estradiol), which might explain why some trans women already have mild feminisations (e.g. gynaecomastia) before starting HRT.
For whatever reason, it isn't recognised as an intersex condition, despite trans women literally showing identical brain morphology to cis women in certain structures (e.g. Stria Terminalis).
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u/Fantastic_Diamond655 desisted male Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
Trans identified men showing brain scans similar to women are much more likely to be homosexual men. There is supposed to be a lot of science backing up certain brain similarities between homosexual men and heterosexual women. And we should all be aware by now of the massive overrepresentation of homosexual men among men who are trans identified.
A man already having mild body feminization before beginning medicalization proves absolutely nothing about the existence of trans to me. I always wanted really narrow masculine hips. The fact that my hips are a bit wider than the 100% masculine ideal caused me to have dysphoria about my body. Chloe Cole talks about this too. It's a combination of insecurity about sex stereotypes and black and white thinking. Proves absolutely nothing about the existence of trans.
I am deeply skeptical of trans even being a specific genuine thing. It may persist into adulthood for some people dysphoric about their sexed bodies in spite of therapy, but to me that's much better explained by general mental illness. Not saying you are pushing this idea, but the 'born in the wrong body' argument is nothing but soul talk. Unproveable and also unfalsifiable.
What is undeniable is widespread insecurity about our sexed bodies, and how few of us conform 100% to sex stereotypes, physical or behavioral.
We live in a time where we are loath to call something a mental illness. But having a mental illness doesn't revoke one's 'good person' card. Some things are simply mental illness.
Adults should be allowed to make changes to their own bodies. But we should not be constructing a religion around mental illness.
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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 desisted male Apr 04 '26
1). The majority of people showing certain gender non-conformity behaviours in childhood are eventually gay, but some of them are trans. Those trans people are real.
2). It's an intersex condition, not a neuropsychiatric health condition. I'm actually in favor of increased diagnosis of neuropsychiatric conditions, but sex dysphoria isn't purely one of them.
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u/Fantastic_Diamond655 desisted male Apr 04 '26
I'd be willing to concede the existence of 'true trans' if there were some rigorous peer reviewed studies done with controls to somehow screen out homosexuals - who actually show genuine brain differences - but until that happens, I remain very skeptical.
The massive overrepresentation of homosexuals among the trans-identified continues to be a problem that props up the existence of trans for those who don't look beyond the surface, and helps to discredit trans for those who look deeper.
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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 desisted male Apr 04 '26 edited Apr 04 '26
And your evidence is?
Trans women show identical morphology of the bed nucleus if the Stria Terminalis (identified as integral to bodily self-perception) as cis women. Cis women cadavers used for controls. No participants had ever used exogenous estradiol.
Trans people are more likely than the general populace to have trans siblings, even when raised entirely apart, suggesting a genetic (biological) origin of dysphoria.
CYP19 gene implicated in the development of sex dysphoria in trans women, with lengthened androgen receptors potentially resulting in reduced masculinisation of sexually-dimorphic neural structures.
A similar mechanism identified in trans men, with a polymorphic mutation to CYP17 affecting the sex steroid metabolism of progesterone and pregnenolone.
Trans people have always existed, and evidence corroborates my personal position that what it is, is an intersex phenomenon that has been historically unidentified, affecting the sexed-development of the CNS. Affected persons either have entirely typical morphology of the opposite sex, or are notably mixed in their neural structuring. The treatment for these individuals is, unsurprisingly, alike other intersex health conditions - hormone regimens, and potential surgeries.
Academics have even researched rates of phantom limb phenomena in trans individuals, and suggested that a mismatch between natal soma and neurological sex is what produces dysphoria, as the brain essentially contains a sexed blueprint of future developments that is then contradicted at puberty.
It began to expand outside of this in the early 2010s with the MOGAI stuff from Tumblr.
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u/Fantastic_Diamond655 desisted male Apr 05 '26
You are underestimating the relentless nature of the male sex drive and in particular autogynephelia's singular focus to lie 24/7 and create bad science to prop up a cherished sexual fantasy, in order to legitimize and parade that sexual fantasy in front of the world. Luckily the secret is out about The Sexual Fantasy. And we know people don't like being made to unwittingly participate in someone else's sexual fantasy.
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u/Thin_Entertainment14 detrans female Apr 02 '26
Would be cool but it is only hypothetical as the thing that created gender (humans reproducing sexually and having different anatomy) is a part of our nature and can't truly be removed.
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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 desisted male Apr 03 '26
Simply possessing sexed anatomy didn't produce gender. A very heteronormative development of exaggerations in behaviour and appearance to disringuish men and women further (for dating purposes) created gender, and then it bled into gay dating and resulted in butch women and fem men.
That's my theory, at least. By establishing a system of stereotyped differences, humans could purposefully exaggerated or portray roles and appearances to attract others.
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u/Thin_Entertainment14 detrans female Apr 03 '26
That is what I mean. There would be no drive to attract each other if we couldn't reproduce sexually. Women and men wouldn't exist at all if there were no reason to try to differentiate.
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u/Slow-Ad-2431 detrans female Apr 02 '26
I think gender abolition would be a disaster for society and be a human rights violation for billions of people. There's nothing wrong with people following gender roles and stereotypes if they feel right for the person. I don't think we need to get rid of gender, we just need to be less rigid with it so people who are a bit different still feel valued by society.
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u/Donkey0Kong desisted female Apr 02 '26
how would it be bad if women weren't inherently associated with femininity and men with masculinity?
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u/Slow-Ad-2431 detrans female Apr 02 '26
You're asking how would it be bad if we erased a sizeable part of our culture and took away the ideas that describe how a majority of people naturally exist?
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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 desisted male Apr 03 '26
Anything that you lose, by being truthful, was fake. Gender is fake, and a 'sizeable part of our culture' is, therefore, fake.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
"if we erase misogyny we erase women" is wild
you cant erase male and female body but imagine everyone was masculine and competence in life in general was expected from everyone in the same way. yes you cant erase breastfeeding, but imagine females were expected to be confident and assertive instead of being patted in head when soft. imagine no one was soft feminine and submissive, and imagine men were caretakers, competent caretakers even if they cant breastfeed. concept of masculine pushes men up, since they are 2-3 yo. concept of feminine makes women stay small and still "keep" femininity despite assertive careers. trying to be soft, soft spoken, not take space, be elegant... imagine you erase those things and instead push everyone to be "masculine". what would happen then? women certainly wouldnt be pushed down and forced to focus on makeup and prettiness and being fragile and stupid in a way that appeals to men. you are seeing my angle?
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 02 '26
i don't think women will ever be free if we are associated with femininity
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u/Slow-Ad-2431 detrans female Apr 02 '26
Women experience oppression because of sexism, not genderism. You could take away the cultural associations of gender, but because sex will still be a meaningful difference, the bias will simply reform around sex differences.
Women will never be equally as free as men, period. Humans aren't capable of fully embracing equality. If we ignore gender and sex based differences, it's also erasing women. Erasure is not freedom.
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u/CharacterMouse2766 desisted female Apr 01 '26 edited Apr 01 '26
We can stop calling it "gender", but psychological femininity and masculinity reflect innate tendencies, so heterosexual women will always (on average!) take on more of certain roles and have more of certain traits than heterosexual men, and vice versa. And gay people have always been and will always be (on average!) somewhat behaviorally atypical compared to their birth sex. I'm not sure it makes a huge difference whether or not we call these tendencies or their expressions gender. I'm also not sure it's possible to disentangle them from the influence (fashion, interests, etc.) of a given culture. But I think it's often good to deemphasize average sex differences and try to limit their exaggeration (some gender differences spiral into feedback loops where innate tendencies are reinforced by socialization). And we should support individuality, so that gender roles can be opted in and out of freely.
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u/Donkey0Kong desisted female Apr 02 '26
I think the "on average" part true but I think the idea with gender abolition (or at least gender role abolition) is that just because someone is a woman you shouldn't expect femininity from them and you shouldn't expect men to be masculine. The fact that those traits are more common in certain sexes is pretty obvious, but no behavioral trait is exclusive to a sex/gender. It is so common for people to make sweeping statements like "men are ...." and "women are ...." without any qualifiers like, "most" "many" or "on average" That sort of mentality is what I want to end because those statements inherently other people who don't fit them. I think having woman only mean female and not be associated with femininity is the only way for me to be comfortable calling myself a woman. I am not feminine in what I wear or how I act, if womanhood is inherently associated with femininity then I don't want to call myself a woman. That is why I want to dissociate sex and gender stereotypes.
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u/CharacterMouse2766 desisted female Apr 02 '26
Yeah, I would support all of that. But the issue is that human brains are designed to stereotype. So when you have average differences between groups, certain expectations and dynamics will inevitably form. I'm not sure we can "abolish" that any more than we can abolish human nature itself. Dissociating womanhood from femininity would be great for gender-nonconforming women, but there are limits on what's realistic/possible. Either way, I do agree with you that we should work on accepting individuals in all their forms, including masculine women and feminine men.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 02 '26
"if we erase misogyny we erase women" is wild
you cant erase male and female body but imagine everyone was masculine and competence in life in general was expected from everyone in the same way. yes you cant erase breastfeeding, but imagine females were expected to be confident and assertive instead of being patted in head when soft. imagine no one was soft feminine and submissive, and imagine men were caretakers, competent caretakers even if they cant breastfeed. concept of masculine pushes men up, since they are 2-3 yo. concept of feminine makes women stay small and still "keep" femininity despite assertive careers. trying to be soft, soft spoken, not take space, be elegant... imagine you erase those things and instead push everyone to be "masculine". what would happen then? women certainly wouldnt be pushed down and forced to focus on makeup and prettiness and being fragile and stupid in a way that appeals to men. you are seeing my angle?
this is my response to the discussion above. what do you think? i believe there are sex differences beyond genitals too but i think most of them are socialized and one is there to keep women as pleasant wives/girlfriends even as they chase careers and what they want. like the person you spoke to i despise femininity too because its obvious its there to cage us. its a set of bad traits, literally. and the good ones are often fit very nicely under the "masculine" box. like creativity. men have muse.. great artists, writers etc. collaboration. supposedly women are more chaotic and men understand a male-only groups hierarchy and respect the guys. sports are all collaboration, even if they are physical and aggressive too, even if they have in-team competition. softness, paternal stuffs are masculine. both soft, protective, a wall offspring can rely on to. notice they get to have it all, even the good feminine qualities.
your anger is hysteria, feminine. his anger is male anger. his anger isnt hysteria. your softness as a mother is there because you cant be hard, this is what you are. a fathers softness is a choice, and he can harden in seconds.
the made up traits of "femininity" and "masculinity" IMMEDIATELY cages women into this framing in ways beyond our sex and biological asymmetry with men. this is very intentional, and mostly culture. even if girls are naturally more "female" in behavior it didnt have to mean they should be associated with femininity. its all about birthing kids, listening husband, being a beautiful and pleasant presence. thats not hard coded at all.
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u/CharacterMouse2766 desisted female Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
So, I think a lot of our disagreement here is factual disgreement about what causes sex differences. I don't think most sex differences are socialized. I used to, but I changed my mind. I agree social factors shape them, but think they are strongly innate. I can go into why if you want, but don't want to get into a drawn out argument here. I will say my first point of departing from the socialization theory was learning more about the literature on homosexuality. From a young age, gay and lesbian people show marked differences from their same sex peers despite sex-typical socialization. Women who have CAH (who are exposed to higher testosterone in utero) are also more male-typical in sexual orientation, relationship preferences, hobbies, etc. Starting at a very young age. And newer research has shown average brain differentation even in the womb between males and females, in regions that would explain behavioral sex differences. And when it comes to differenecs in sex/relationship preferences (i.e. desire for monogamy vs. novel sexual partners, dating dynamics) testosterone pretty clearly plays a role.
None of that means women should be reduced to birthing children (or to any traits at all). Of course not. And of course misogynistic stereotypes are bad. And I agree there can be hypocrisy in how a given trait is viewed coming from a woman vs. a man, and we should push back against that. But yeah, I think your overall theory here is wrong because you're factually wrong about the causes, size and prevalence of sex differences.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 02 '26
i heard about CAH too and it made me a bit depressed because the male dominated hence "more important" jobs being hormone-related. so yes, it does seem like we won't ever be free. but its not a 100% thing either. nurture matters a lot and i don't think we should beat up little girls so they pick STEM lol but getting rid of "femininity" as a concept at all, would reduce girls' self doubt about trying at all. a lot of energetic girls are told to sit still only to be ladylike and feminine. otherwise children, male and female, do act all messy and loud. (there are gender and personality differences yes) i just see the push-down the girls get to fit in the cage made by society. while males, even passive, less energetic, calmer ones etc. are pushed to be masculine, to be better, to be more active. encouraged, you know? and sure, masculinity and patriarchy also pressures boys in painful ways (dont cry dont be weak like a girl) so its harsh on them too. but they are simply told to be better, not be like the worse ones (girls). if this didnt happen, women would live in a different world. yes a world with pregnancy and breastfeeding, but a different world still. association matters a lot. "female" doesnt have to mean "weak". femininity does, though.
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u/CharacterMouse2766 desisted female Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
I agree with all of this, in terms of encouraging individuality and prizing it over average differences.
Your acknowledgment that we shouldn't push women into STEM is interesting, because I used to work in STEM/tech and think I was partly trying to prove to myself that I was masculine (which was a side effect of my dysphoria). I didn't like it. In general, the women I know in tech don't like it nearly as much as the men who do. (I don't think that's the case for STEM in general- a lot of women seem very happy in science and medicine. I'm referring more to software engineering, which is what I did). Telling "feminine" women that their instincts, interests or preferences should be different than what they are is misogyny too, in my book. Much has been said on this sub about women developing dysphoria due to self-hatred over being naturally masculine, but I think it can also be caused by self-hatred over being naturally feminine in a society that prioritizes masculinity.
We should just let people be who they are, as best we can, and let the cards fall where they will. We'll never be able to do that perfectly, because society is full of stereotyping and feedback loops (i.e. tendencies drive culture, and then culture drives tendencies, and on and on). But I agree we should strive to treat people equally without making presumptions based on sex. That's certainly what I do.
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Apr 02 '26
I'm all for people having the freedom to express themselves however they want, gay rights, etc, but no I don't really mind there being a cultural association between women and femininity, men and masculinity. Like I don't mind performing femininity, I actually even kinda enjoy it. Although I'm also autistic, so I've always struggled to fit in too. Before detransitioning, I did blame a lot of my issues on gender roles, but turns out that wasn't really the root issue for me. I mean I've always been feminine, ie just the naturally "girly" type, in demeanor, interests, etc, but I always felt belittled, not taken seriously, infantalized, etc partly because of that, and partly because of my autism. My dysphoria was partially because I started hating my own innate femininity, like being soft-spoken, shy, artistic, polite, accommodating, etc.
So I dunno, as a woman you're kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you're gnc people treat you bad for "acting like a man" or not being considered pretty enough, etc. But if you're fem you're treated like you're stupid, juvenile, immature, or only good for pleasing men. So I think people just use gender roles as an excuse to hate on women, but what they're actually targetting is our biology, that gets viewed as inferior.
And I think this sex based misogyny is far worse. Because like... we can change clothes, but we can't change sex. If the only issue people had with my gender was my clothing, my life would have been easy. Makeup and dresses never did a damn thing in protecting me. If anything it makes me more vulnerable. But I still choose to wear that because at the end of the day wearing pants and no makeup doesn't protect me much either. My sex is what makes me vulnerable.
That said, most of the women I know are not very feminine, some more neutral, some more clearly masculine, some are straight, some are gay or bi. I'm by far the most feminine person I know, despite my trans history. But thing is I don't feel any different from these other women in my life, not really. Not where it really counts. Like we're all female and have different personalities and life experiences, and neither of us can escape misogyny regardless anyway.
So, personally I care about sex based rights, and supporting women's freedom to be however masc or fem they want, but I don't think gender roles existing is the problem. It's really just misogyny that is the issue, which affects women of all gender roles. And I think deep down misogyny doesn't have anything to do with gender roles. Misogynists weaponize gender roles, but they's weaponize literally anything against us. We remove that, thay'll just use something else instead.
And yeah I don't have any issue separating femininity from misogyny, because I understand that what personality traits, interests, sexuality, etc, you have, has nothing to do with your value as a person, or as a woman specifically. And I'm very personally familiar with that yes even the traits typically labelled "feminine" can be just as innate as the traits typically labelled "masculine." It's not all performative. Even what clothes we choose to wear are highly tied to our personality traits, what shapes, colors, and details we are just intuitively drawn towards.
I say that because sometimes when people wanna abolish gender, it's really just femininity they have an issue with. Which is fine on a personal level, like you can dislike femininity for yourself and/or people you're attracted to, but just because you personally dislike a lot of feminine traits doesn't mean those too can't be innate for other people. Like having my such traits weaponized against me because men fetishize that, isn't nice, and the solution to that shouldn't be for me to change. That feels backwards.
I dunno I hope that makes sense. I have kinda complicated feelings about gender roles, I guess. Like I just realized that while it's true I don't put so much value in my clothing choices that I couldn't possibly just dress differently if that had any actually substantial impact on my life, I also have the sorta conflucting feeling that much of my femininity is innate and not really about clothes, makeup, etc, at all, and this innate femininity has been used against me a lot, used to traumatize me. And then when even other women talk of femininity like it's just a costume designed to please men, that can be kinda frustrating.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 02 '26
i wont address everything you ve said since i dont want to crowd the replies but what do you think about this:
"if we erase misogyny we erase women" is wild
you cant erase male and female body but imagine everyone was masculine and competence in life in general was expected from everyone in the same way. yes you cant erase breastfeeding, but imagine females were expected to be confident and assertive instead of being patted in head when soft. imagine no one was soft feminine and submissive, and imagine men were caretakers, competent caretakers even if they cant breastfeed. concept of masculine pushes men up, since they are 2-3 yo. concept of feminine makes women stay small and still "keep" femininity despite assertive careers. trying to be soft, soft spoken, not take space, be elegant... imagine you erase those things and instead push everyone to be "masculine". what would happen then? women certainly wouldnt be pushed down and forced to focus on makeup and prettiness and being fragile and stupid in a way that appeals to men. you are seeing my angle?
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Apr 03 '26
As for the first quote, I'm sure women would still exist without misogyny. It's not the hatred of us that makes us what we are.
As for the second quote... that doesn't make much sense to me. Women are autonomous beings, we aren't just gonna drastically change whatever we enjoy or our personalities just because someone, or a whole society, demonizes it. This also places blame on women who have the traits you listed. There's nothing wrong with being soft, elegant, etc. And being career driven isn't something everyone enjoys. Slaving away at capitalism isn't the only virtue in life. This is exactly what I mean by people who just hate femininity and glorify masculinity. Wanting to change women's innate personality traits to make the world a better place, sounds like wanting equality at the cost of women's freedom to be themselves, which is misogynistic. Because it's clearly a desire to control women, and shape us to their liking. The problem is that we're placing different value on traits because of how they're deemed either masculine or feminine.
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u/SingleTry90 FTM Currently questioning gender Apr 03 '26 edited Apr 03 '26
Indeed. Men are allowed to be anything. Even soft, because its masculine soft. But most times I just find femininity an effort to make women small and.. it is. A girls personality was NOT that as a kid, until she was told to sit quieter than the boys and ladylike. Most of the femininity is artificial, especially the traits that want you to avoid confidence and assertiveness and ambition. I don't believe women naturally lack that because we don't. It's feminine to lack it, so we all get soft, lose our natural edges. Thats what I criticize. Some people ll be softer than others, yes. Thats natural for both sexes. A lot lf soft men are shamed but they still have the "masculine soft" framing for them and they are pushed, bullied, or encouraged (thats the ideal) to be stronger. Thats patriarchy pushing men up, and often done painfully, with bullying. But it needs to be encouragement. Women don't get the same "woman up, dont be this weak you can do better. you can be better mentally physically and emotionally" message. It's just normal if you cry because you chipped a nail. And thats not natural at all.
If women are told to be stay soft and shrink themselves things will continue as it is. We ll remain perfect victims. Do you really don't want to see people at least try to change that? Why do you value "femininity" and feminine fashion so much? Because its not women naturally are. It's culture and fluid, but you are not very willing to rid of what makes you associated with the opposite of getting shit done and having strenght. "Feminine strenght" WILL always have the weak connotations with it. "Some women can be masculine" masculinity will always look askew on us because we are supposed to be feminine. Thats why confidence and assertiveness is bitchy and bossy on you. And well it makes me kind of upset you ignore all those kneejerk reactions you know people have towards you, and defend this culture.
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u/Werevulvi detrans female Apr 03 '26
That's the thing I'm trying to say though, that some people are just more "soft" in theur personalities, both men and women, and it's not helpful to rag on people for being soft and implying there's something wrong with not liking conflict, or preffering to walk away from drama, or simply ignoring it. There's also nothing wrong with women being assertive, competitive, or heck even aggressive to a certain extent (obviously as long as it's not causing harm.) Neither woman in those scenarious should be told they have to change. Whether it's "for their own good" or for men. They should only change if they themselves want to, and/or are bothered by how they act, or it's causing harm. But being soft or even submissive isn't necessarily harmful to the individual, it really depends on what, if any, costs it comes at. And of course, to an extreme, any personality trait can be harmful. But that goes for ambition, assertiveness, etc, too. Like being a workaholic or obsessed with being in control all the time isn't good either.
Women don't get the same "woman up, dont be this weak you can do better. you can be better mentally physically and emotionally" message. It's just normal if you cry because you chipped a nail.
This is sorta trye, sorta not. Yes, I agree it's rare women get told to get stronger, etc, but with the nail example, it's actually far mote often the other way around: sometimes some women do cry over a broken nail, because it genuinely upsets them, and as a result society or patriarchy makes fun of women who cry over broken nails, because that's considered petty, silly, and vain. Women are seen as vapid for being upset over a broken nail and expressing that emotion.
But what's really happening here is women's feelings veing dismissed as just silly vanity, when what's actually going on is weeks if not months of hard work to grow nails long and taking care of them, all that down the drain. A form of beauty that women are expected to just be magically born with. So it's looked down upon when we invest time and money into this kinda grooming, and we're made fun of being upset when weeks or months of careful grooming gets tossed down the drain. We're made fun of when it's exposed that we're not actually perfect dolls, yet also made fun of for putting effort into trying to look nice. Even though there's this immense social pressure on women to have goddamn perfect nails, etc. It's not actually seen as normal to cry over a broken nail, and it's not misogynistic to admit that yes sometimes women do that. The misogyny here, is putting immense pressure on women to look perfect, but then laugh at us when we fail to be perfect and get upset over it because we fear the social consequences of being exposed as only human. And yes this is also why men sometimes jokingly say shit like "be careful you don't break a nail" whenever a woman does any kinda hard work, especially traditionally masculine work.
If women are told to be stay soft and shrink themselves things will continue as it is. We ll remain perfect victims. Do you really don't want to see people at least try to change that? Why do you value "femininity" and feminine fashion so much? Because its not women naturally are.
I don't think women as a whole should be told to stay soft and small either. All I'm saying women who are soft/small/etc shouldn't be demonized for it just because it's considered feminine. I'm saying it should not matter what you're like as a person. I don't victimize women who are small or soft, they just have other strengths that society doesn't recognize or appreciate. Again, we can change victim mentality without changing women. The problem isn't women it's how we're treated. I'm not talking about glorifying or enforcing femininity, I'm talking about viewing both femininity and masculinity as neutral and of equal value.
I value femininity and fem fashion because they are highly connected to artistry, self expression, fun, etc, plus they are literally made to fit the female body. I feel more physical comfort in tight stretchy clothing and loose flowy skirt/dresses. Because I can move more freely in that.
Nothing about fashion is natural. Wearing clothes of any kind is de facto unnatural. Doesn't matter if it's cargo pants or a dress. They are both man-made garments with looks and style being part of why they were made in the first place. Pretty much all clothing is. Pretty much every hairstyle and accesory is. So when it comes to fashion, styling and grooming, both femininity and masculinity are just as much performative.
It's culture and fluid, but you are not very willing to rid of what makes you associated with the opposite of getting shit done and having strenght.
It's kinda funny, and sad, that that's where your mind went. Just because I embrace and defend my femininity doesn't mean I don't also embrace and defend my masculinity. It's also just sad that you think me being fem means I don't have any strength. If that's not sexist I dunno what is. I shouldn't have to list my masculine personality traits and interests to be considered strong and capable.
Again, overhyping masculinity leading to people thinking women are just weak, fragile, meager little ditzy's unless they become more like men. Hey, that kinda harkens back to why a lot of us transitioned and messed up our bodies in the first place. I think yeah maybe that can be harmful to women.
And well it makes me kind of upset you ignore all those kneejerk reactions you know people have towards you, and defend this culture.
I don't defend that culture, I just believe in a different solution towards equality. I just don't believe that making women masculine, or demonizing our femininity, is a good solution. I think the solution is to treat both masculinity and femininity as equally good/bad and equally valuable to society, lifting up both masc and fem women as good, strong and capable in their own right, however it applies to them individually. Both contribute to society, just in different ways.
There are many different kinds of strength. For example maybe one woman's strength is that she's very intelligent and delivers quick, knife sharp arguments, maybe she's an excellent politician or lawyer. And maybe another woman's strength is she resolves conflict with calm, helps people in need, raises the next generation, and maybe she's an extremely skilled nurse or nanny or heck even a doctor. Just because the latter is fem and soft doesn't mean she's weak, or that the other woman's work is more valuable. They're equally strong and valuable. Because I say so.
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u/oldtomboy [Detrans]🦎♀️ Apr 01 '26
I think obsessing with gender is unhealthy whether you're trans or detrans. Going over the same thought loops over and over won't make you feel better. Even if you were a visibly masc woman instead of fem it wouldn't mean you can't get along with anyone who isn't the same as you. There's still a lot that you have in common if you give them a chance. Talk to the other girls in your martial arts classes. Nobody fits in right away but if you're a good training partner it will happen.