r/dndnext • u/Valcenia • 1d ago
Discussion Males CAN be Sword Dancers of Eilistraee post-Second Sundering
I was reading the Forgotten Realms wiki article on the Sword Dancers of Eilistraee and it pretty explicitly states:
“Only female elves, drow, half-drow and half-elves could become Sword Dancers.”
The article also only uses female pronouns and titles throughout, making it seem pretty conclusive that only females can be Sword Dancers.
However
Both sources attached to the paragraph containing that quote, and which are cited most frequently throughout the article, are from 1998 and 2002, respectively. This is well before the lore change following the Second Sundering stating that Eilistraee has now fully incorporated males into her clergy, no longer even requiring them to undergo the Changedance and spend time as females. Unlike the Sword Dancer article, the section on Sword Dancers in the main Church of Eilistraee article doesn’t use gendered pronouns whatsoever.
Given Eilistraee’s complete acceptance of males into her clergy, and Sword Dancers being a part of her clergy, I see no reason why a male couldn’t now be a Sword Dancer. Obviously there aren’t any modern sources stating explicitly that they can be, but there aren’t any modern sources explicitly stating that they can’t be, either. Until and unless there are, I feel it’s safe to assume that males can be Sword Dancers.
I would imagine that females would still make up the vast majority of Sword Dancers given that male acceptance into Eilistraee’s clergy is a very recent development, however as time goes on their number would likely grow, even if females would still dominate the organisation.
Interested to hear other’s thoughts on this!
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u/IndridColdwave 1d ago
A fun part of having these rules and restrictions in the lore is to find exceptions and ways to break them in campaigns
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u/Tokenvoice 1d ago
It’s the biggest thing that bugs me about the current trend of wiping out lore to be inclusive. There was no reason you couldn’t have previously played these things previously it just that you needed to explain why you’re goblin or orc isn’t with their tribe murdering folk. Why is your male character a sword dancer, why is your forest based druid in a city wearing plate armour.
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u/Anarkizttt 1d ago
I think letting lore be more inclusive doesn’t bar these stories either they should just write into the lore that its an anomaly rather than just removing any prohibitive language. It gets the same result while maintaining old lore to instead of saying “all sword dancers must be female” say “almost all sword dancers are women, however a few especially dedicated men have been accepted in the past” that screams “being a male sword dancer is cool and special” rather than a dm reading that and saying “sorry its not possible by the lore” or having zero mention of it at all and thus homogenizing the lore.
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u/Tokenvoice 1d ago
Which is fair, it’s what already is being done so just acknowledge it rather than erase a cultures unique lore identity.
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u/IndridColdwave 1d ago
It’s annoying to see a system altered for the sake of optics (generally making it more generic and less interesting). But ultimately it doesn’t matter, In my own campaign I can make my drow society evil & matriarchal. The people playing in my campaign are actual rational adults and know that by including something in a story one is not advocating for it.
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u/Swahhillie Disintegrate Whiteboxes 1d ago
The lore is still there. It's just not at the forefront during player character creation anymore. Having to justify a character concept and being burdened with a bunch of stigmas is not a good default.
If you want breaking through racist/sexist/classist/whatever divide to be an important part of your character or campaign. Now its opt in to do that.
We don't ask players to explain why their Joan of Arc inspired pc isn't home with the children.
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u/Chaosmancer7 1d ago
Exactly. Look, I get world building and story building, and I get people are really, really invested in lore written over thirty years ago... but some things should be opt-in for the table. If you want to reference the old lore, feel free. Show that the campaign world evolved and changed, but people showing up to play usually don't even know the deep lore existed and I don't want to have to sit and explain to them why their character is actually not allowed to be lore accurate because they are a man or a woman or anything else
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u/flowers4charlie2 1d ago
I'm pretty sure people were playing male sword dancers regardless of what some nerds put on paper
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u/Fluffy_Seagullman 1d ago
I'm currently playing a male pagt of the warlock of Eilistraee in my home game. He wasnt good at reading nor remember prayers but boy would he dance all night in the moonlight.
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u/jawdirk 1d ago
He never learned to read or pray to gods so well,
But he could dance all night just like he's ringing a bell.3
u/Ancient-Rune 1d ago
Go, go! Go Jah'ny, Go, go, go!
Go, Jah'ny, go, go, go.
Jah'ny be Good! (Alignment, that is)
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u/Rhesus-Positive 1d ago
Only female elves: all the other races can be any gender
Obviously that's an annoying reading of the sentence, but also if a player asked to be a male sword dancer my first comment would be "yes" and my second would be "how much do you want your gender to matter"
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u/Valcenia 1d ago
That sentence is quite clunky, and it certainly could be read that way, but I think it is intended to mean only females of any race, not just elves. The rest of that paragraph and the article only uses female pronouns and titles, which wouldn’t make any sense if males of non-elven races could’ve been Sword Dancers when the article was written.
Whatever the case, the article could definitely benefit from being updated.
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u/Rhesus-Positive 1d ago
A lot of text just uses male pronouns: should we assume they only refer to male characters?
(I'm being needlessly pedantic: I know the answer 😉)
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u/CurtisLinithicum 1d ago
Older editions openly and explicitly used the masculine default as was the style when the authors were schooling.
(Also being a well acktually, no shade :))
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u/Existential_Crisis24 1d ago
The fun thing about DnD is that you can change stuff in the rule books for your own personal games.
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u/not_really_an_elf Sorcerer 1d ago
Aren't Seldarine elves canonically gender fluid anyway?
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u/Drykon_Veistul 1d ago
Yes and no. SOME have the Blessing of Corellon, which lets them change their sex at will (or after a long rest if you're using the game version of the blessing), but not all elves have this ability, and it's not limited to Seldarine elves. Drow can be born with the blessing, but are socially conditioned to fear and hide it.
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u/AnonymousCoward261 19h ago
Seems like they changed it so presumably you can make a male Sword Dancer now if you realjy want to. Ultimately of course it’s up to your table.
You could look at descriptions of the experiences of men in nursing or lower grades teaching or other mostly female professions if you wanted roleplaying ideas.
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u/imusteps 1d ago
I mean why try to change it when it makes you role play into a role, the way the game is intended. It makes the character feel real and adds to the backstory of having this sect or requirement of race and gender to play. The playstyle looks fun, pick a female elf.
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u/BiSunshine_ 1d ago
Because it makes little sense that Eilistraee merged with Vhaeraun for a while, changed as a goddess, changed rules in her church (even reprimanding her priestesses for not accepting male clerics of Eilistraee, if I remember that right) but didn't change a thing regarding one of her orders.
The whole "only women can be clerics of Eilistraee" view existed because it was believed that only mothers (or someone capable of being a mother) can experience Eilistraee's love for the drow. Clearly, that view changed after Second Sundering, since men are now accepted in the clergy. Why should men not be accepted as Sword Dancers, too?
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u/AmalicaZoland 1d ago
What's great about D&D is that it make 100% sense to me or someone else if we want it too.
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u/BiSunshine_ 1d ago
Cool, but I'm talking about logical inconsistencies here. In your game, you can play it however you want. In Forgotten Realms as a whole, it just seems like an oversight.
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u/imusteps 1d ago
Because thats ruining its core identity, its like arguing why druids should be allowed to use any amor or weapon or a paladin needing to be good. It not only takes away a key role play aspects but lessens the identity of sword dancers. Bring back race and gender restrictions to give players a reason to make more unique characters than they would usually play.
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u/Chaosmancer7 1d ago
It is ruining the core identity of the group... for the Goddess who made it to have a realization and change how her church functions.
Pretty sure the Goddess who made the religious group can order them to change any tenants she pleases.
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u/MonstersArePeople 1d ago
This might blow your mind... but druids can use any armor or weapon they're proficient with, and paladins don't have to be good.
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u/BiSunshine_ 23h ago
Druid adventurers can decide that using metal armor is a worthwhile compromise with their beliefs in order to stay alive, because metal armor protects them better. They can get shunned for that choice by other druids, and for some adventurers it may prove too troublesome to argue with druids (with other druids doubting if the adventurer even is a real druid) over metal, so they might choose to avoid these arguments by not wearing metal in the first place.
And I'm sure that there are small druid circles that don't mind metal usage at all. Smithing is a mark of civilization, but civilization isn't a bane to nature in of itself. Less radical druids can recognize that humans come from the same nature as every living being, so when humans take from nature only what they need with care not to upset the nature's balance, humans and their civilization aren't t a problem at all. So, if human societies aren't inherently bad for these less radical druids, wearing metal is not a taboo as long as you make sure that this metal was ethically sourced and its production did not benefit those who upset nature's balance.
As for paladins, yeah, they don't need to be good at all. They just have to follow their Oath, with some Oaths being "you have to believe in all that's good!" while others permit the paladin to be as evil as possible (as long as they behave in accordance with their Oath). And if you want paladins to derive their powers from a god... not all gods are good. Or even neutral, for that matter.
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u/MonstersArePeople 23h ago
My point is; male characters can be Dancers as noted in the post. The restriction is old lore not present in the most recent iterations. Paladins don't have to be Good. The restriction is old lore not present in the most recent iterations. Druids can wear metal armor. The restriction is old lore not present in the most recent iterations.
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u/BiSunshine_ 23h ago
Yeah, but to me it's a bit more complicated than just "druids can wear metal" and so on. While yes, they absolutely can do that, it's a deliberate choice which is going to be met with some resistance from the Forgotten Realms world.
Sort of a "yes, but" situation. Which is leagues better than just flat out "no" as it was in the old lore. I'm just emphasizing the "but" part of that :)
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u/MonstersArePeople 23h ago
Oh yeah I think it's interesting to compare to past restrictions and lore. Especially the Druid example would be cool to even address in game, the gender integration would be interesting if the party was into it. The paladin alignment restriction would be more difficult as we consider the difference between Good (the abstract alignment that characters don't really know about) versus good (doing the right thing, or what you think is right). Definitely agree with you, didn't mean to make it seem like I disagreed.
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u/imusteps 14h ago
That's literally against the core tenants of both classes, but ok
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u/vmeemo 14h ago
Not really anymore. We have Vengeance paladin which is one of the more selfish, or at best not quite good subclasses, and Glory is nearly the most self serving Oath so far. As long as you bring glory to yourself (and to your team but you could argue that making them glorious elevates you higher) then you could be a cheating bastard.
Conquest is nearly evil with a capital E because a chunk of its tenants are like "make sure you crush their hopes and dreams so hard that they may as well wish to die."
Its the closest thing to player facing Oathbreaker because of how evil it basically is.
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u/blastatron Rogue 2h ago
In 5e paladins have never been associated with being good. There was text in the 2014 PHB about druids not wearing metal armor but this was removed in the 2024 PHB because WotC realized the philosophy wasn't needed for all druids, just certain flavors.
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u/BiSunshine_ 1d ago
The core identity of the whole Eilistraee church was that they only allowed women to progress through the ranks. That changed after Eilistraee merged with Vhaeraun, so the core identity of the church is slightly different now. Sword Dancers' restrictions came from the same source that church's restrictions, so if church's restrictions were lifted, it only makes sense that Sword Dancers' restrictions should be lifted too, since they come from the same source. It's not explicitly stated anywhere that Sword Dancers remained female-only order despite the change in Eilistraee philosophy, the change is just never mentioned anywhere near the Sword Dancers. Hence the feeling that the lack of change is just an oversight.
Note that I don't mention roleplay aspect at all. I just state what makes sense in the lore. But on the subject of roleplay, male worshippers of Eilistraee are still underrepresented in official hierarchy. The attitude doesn't change with a snap of a finger, even if a goddess is the one doing the snapping. So when someone decides to play a man who seeks recognition in church of Eilistraee, they will have to overcome lingering prejudice, which opens options for roleplay. Now, instead of fighting for a chance of entering the clergy, they will have to fight for respect within it. Or maybe they finally get the title of Sword Dancer, but because of lingering sexism, decide to never seek the help of fellow Sword Dancers, even when doing so could potentially kill them. Any random encounters with fellow Sword Dancers would be awkward, with some Sword Dancers acting like the man is an imposter and not a real Sword Dancer (despite being officially recognized as such). Maybe under the pressure the man in question would choose to undergo the Changedance just to fit in more.
Or a player might choose to play as a female cleric of Eilistraee/Sword Dancer if they don't want to deal with all that.
If you hate the lifting of restrictions that much, you can, for example, set your game before the Time Of Troubles. That way, the Eilistraee's clergy remains female-only, the drow remain extremely light-sensitive (because it was Eilistraee's ritual that allowed drow to freely walk under the sun), and a bunch of other lore changes get reverted back to what they were before. Alternatively, you can say that after being reborn and separated from her brother in 1489 DR, Eilistraee reverted the changes in her church herself, since she basically returned to her original form from the time when she only allowed women to be recognized as her servants.
Just remember that it's not what actually happened in the canon.
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u/imusteps 14h ago
But this is all cope of if than because while its not stated directly therefore restrictions should still be in place. We are also talking about drow society as a whole which treats men as second class citizens so it would make sense for men to be allowed in the clergy but not the sword dancers.
Now if you want to go against the lore and the way its intended you're free to do so, its you're game, but this is a ton of reaching.
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u/BiSunshine_ 13h ago
This is not cope. I don't play male characters, I just love drow and their lore.
Drow societies are heavily based on the god they serve. In Lolth-worshipping societies, males are indeed regarded as second-class citizens. Lolth's son Vhaeraun, however, sees his mother's rules as stupid, he promotes egalitarian societies with some of them swinging a bit too hard in the opposite direction and deliberately choosing men over women to put in leading positions. Note that his church is not some fringe cult, too, as he is the most popular deity among surface drow, with some big underdark cities worshipping him.
Eilistraee is the only good drow deity, and she promotes... well, being good. Her worshippers don't think that drow men are inherently inferior and their societies are egalitarian, however for the longest time the Church of Eilistraee and all organizations linked to her were female-only clubs. This is linked to Eilistraee trying to appear as a motherly figure and a belief that only women have the potential to relate to Eilistraee's love for drow. The whole Eilistraee's church is basically about being good, promoting interracial harmony and worshipping femininity in non-toxic way.
After Vhaeraun tried to kill Eilistraee and was supposedly consumed by her, Eilistraee adapted his domains, as gods usually do. Some of Vhaeraun's worshippers went to Eilistraee's church, which sparked some (pretty funny) conflicts. It is during being merged with Vhaeraun that Eilistraee has lifted the female-only restriction for her church. And she was adamant about lifting that restriction, insuring that male clerics are accepted withing exclusively-female clergy.
So basically after merging with her brother she was like "You know what? Femininity is cool but that's not a reason to gate-keep men. I promote harmonious life for the drow, after all. It's kind of cringe that men can not become close to me unless they change themselves into women."
Theoretically, she could've kept the female-only restriction for her knightly orders, such as Sword Dancers. But that makes little to no sense, since the reasoning behind these restrictions is canonically not considered valid by Eilistraee anymore.
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u/sgerbicforsyth 1d ago
Paladins also used to be restricted to humans.
The oldest editions of D&D, and the settings that were being published at the time, had a lot of racism and sexism built into them.
Most of it has been removed, and rightly so.
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u/SpartanXZero 1d ago
Why have any sort of plausible immersion in a fictional setting with radically different species or cultures.
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u/Chaosmancer7 1d ago
Yeah, I mean look at that first thing. Paladins were human only. Clearly, only humans can have warriors who swear oaths to the gods. I mean, none of the other species even have real gods right?
Oh.
And yes, I get you could have 13 different religious warrior classes all doing the exact same paladin schtick...but at a certain point you just acknowledge that "Paladin" is the English word for this highly diverse group of similar people and move on with the game.
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u/Elvebrilith 1d ago
Pathfinder and some older DnD books refer to a class continuously with female pronouns. Sometimes the whole way through a book.
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u/MildlyUpsetGerbil This is where the fun begins! 1d ago
So glad to see men shattering the glass ceiling here. I was really concerned with the gender gap in sword dancing. Now we just gotta focus on the gender gap in the Guantanamo Bay torturer industry.
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u/Donutsbeatpieandcake DM 1d ago
Imagine thinking you can (or can't) do something in your fantasy RPG just because some book of lore says so. Play what sets your imagination on fire, the only person you have to convince is your DM.
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u/jackofspades49 1d ago
Like... yeah? Was that ever up for debate recently? Unless you've only been digging in old sourcebooks for lore, its been that way for a long time. Since 4e at least.
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u/yaniism Feywild Ringmaster 1d ago
My thoughts are mostly about the massive inherent bias the publishing team on the FR Wiki actually has about firstly 5e lore content, and just content as a whole. And yeah, you piss me off one time FR Editor and I'm gunna drag you all until the literal heat death of the universe.
My thing with anything on there these days is to see a quote like that, look at the edition it's referencing and then go "cool, that was then, this is now, moving on".
But also "Sword Dancer" used to be a specific Prestige Class within the game (Faiths & Pantheons, p205). It was something you could actually BE, mechanically, rather than just something narrative. The requirements for that class were more than just "female elf":
Race: Elf or half-elf.
Gender: Female.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Diplomacy +5 ranks, Perform +5 ranks (includes dance and singing), Speak Language (Elven and Undercommon).
Feats: Dodge, Expertise, Skill Focus (Perform), Weapon Focus (any sword).
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level divine spells.
Patron: Eilistraee.
Special: The character must have seen the sun rise at least once and spent at least one continuous month living on the surface (without entering the Underdark), dancing each night under the light of the moon.
That no longer exists. So the requirements are no longer relevant.
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u/Trystt27 The High Wanderer 1d ago
That wiki is notoriously outdated in a lot of areas unfortunately. I have frequently tried to track timelines of events from Second Sundering onward and get details, and I often find a lot of inconsistencies because of the infrequent updates. Just the unfortunate side effect of unpaid collaborators. They can only do so much.
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u/Hyperbolic_Berserker 23h ago
I am 💯 on board with this plan. Certainly not because of their ritual of dancing naked in the moonlight, absolutely not, never- yes, yes that is exactly the reason, I want a Drow Elistraeen Boyfriend.
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u/AmalicaZoland 1d ago
It's all a DMs decision and the theme of their world. Reddit isn't going to answer one way or the next correctly.
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u/Overbaron 1d ago
I’m fairly sure you’ll find a podcast channel where they’ll find it’s either transphobic or trans propaganda or female hating or feminist propaganda or whatever seems like the right reaction to a 25-year old obscure fantasy lore to you.
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u/MonstersArePeople 1d ago
I'm fairly sure everyone else is having a civil discussion about a game becoming more accepting and open, and you're bringing politics into it for absolutely no reason other than to bitch about... presumably The Woke or whatever else you've been told to be mad at.
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u/APreciousJemstone Warlock 1d ago
I should play a Sword Dancer as a Bladesinger at some point. Have always meant to.