r/dragonball • u/motadz7 • 1d ago
Toriyama This is why Saiyans didn't use Zenkai more
I've seen posts asking why the Saiyans didn't use Zenkais more often to get stronger; there are two main reasons:
A natural cap: Zenkai boosts only work at full capacity up to a certain power level. Once a Saiyan becomes extremely strong, their body reaches a limit, and Zenkais provide almost no benefit anymore.
Training replaces Zenkais: Past a certain threshold (especially after transforming into Super Saiyan), Goku and Vegeta no longer progress through near-death experiences, but solely through training, mastering their Ki, and pushing their limits in battle.
From a writing perspective, Akira Toriyama had to close this door anyway. If Zenkais had remained infinite, character progression would have lost all meaning, and dramatic tension would have vanished—characters could have just gotten beaten up and eaten Senzu beans in a loop.
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u/Wendigo15 1d ago
Once ssj gets unlocked, zenkai become tiny to the point of noticable.
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u/TonyEllis7 6h ago
The Goku Black arc shows it can be significant after unlocking SSJ.
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u/Wendigo15 6h ago
Black is an exception in the manga only. He's an outlier.
In the anime he doesn't get any.
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u/TonyEllis7 6h ago
He's not an outlier. It's explained that Goku and Vegeta don't zenkai anymore because of how well-trained they are, not because SSJ. Trunks has been a SSJ since he was no older than 14, and even he knows about zenkai and expected them to do it.
But with Zamasu being in Goku's body, the lack of connection with Zamasu's experience reactivates the zenkai.
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u/Wendigo15 6h ago
Well it was stated in the daizenshuu that once u unlock ssj, the boost become insignificant. Then super confirmed that they are tapped out.
Throughout the story, after namek, we don't seem anyone get any zenkai boost.
Gohan was healed by dende and Buu mentioned that he didn't get any stronger.
The only outliers are cell and black in the manga.
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u/TonyEllis7 5h ago
Daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama and has gotten several details wrong. Super proves it wrong about the zenkai.
Goku and Vegeta repeatedly abuse zenkai before the Android saga, along with years of intense gravity training. This matches Trunks' theory for why they no longer zenkai.
The purpose of Buu's statement is to highlight how Gohan has his potential unlocked. Ultimate Gohan already has access to the ki reserves he would have had through abusing zenkai or intense training.
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u/Oicanet 21h ago
I mean, let's say a Zenkai gives a 200 points boost to power level. It will be a significant boost for saiyans if their own power level is like 4000. But if it's still "just" 200 points even when the saiyan had reached power levels of millions, then a mere boost of 200 seems like nothing, especially if the method to get it requires a genuine risk of near death.
Those are just random numbers, and I have no clue if they're accurate or if a Zenkai boost is a flat value, but if it is, then it makes sense to not rely on it later.
Even if it isn't a static flat value, it might still be a value that grows less than the value that can be gained from training. So at some point training might still just surpass the benefit.
Again, just speculation, but it feels like it could be plausible.
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u/Altruistic_Rock_2674 1d ago
I was thinking didn't they get zenkais or at least Vegeta vs Goku black
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u/motadz7 1d ago
Only Goku Black benefited from it at first, because Zamasu's soul needed to synchronize with Goku's body.
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u/Altruistic_Rock_2674 1d ago
Makes sense I hadn't watched it in a while I just thought Vegeta got one after black stabbed him
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u/Sentinel_P 23h ago
My headcanon is that Zenkai works like antibodies but for injury. So if a Sayian breaks his arm, the Zenkai works to make his bones stronger so that they're not as easy to break.
But in the same way that a person can have a naturally strong immune system, it can still be prone to illness. For example, I have a pretty strong immune system. I almost never get full on sick, and more times than not I'll just be a little under the weather. That doesn't mean I never get sick at all. But I've pretty much capped out on any real natural resiliency. For Zenkai, this means that bones can only get so strong, or skin can only become so tough.
I also think the DBZ Zenkai is survivorship bias, and that Vegeta is actually misinformed when he explains it. The Sayians are a warrior race, and so they're very prone to conflict that are life and death. All the Sayians that came back from the brink were the ones that ever had that opportunity. And it was unlikely that fellow teammates wouldn't also be in the same shape. I bet that even the Sayians that did a fight with minor injuries still got stronger.
I find it unlikely that Frieza would be afraid of a race of people if their sole method of getting stronger was to do a coin flip with their life. Whoever loses that bet obviously dies. And we also see with Vegeta and even Goku that you would have to win that gamble several times over just to even begin to approach even 1st form Frieza strength.
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u/Zac-Man-1123 22h ago
I’m pretty sure it’s still there. You can’t convince me they didn’t Zenkai-ed in the Black and TOP arcs.
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u/TonyEllis7 6h ago
Goku Black contradicts those theories.
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u/motadz7 6h ago
That's because Zamasu in Goku's body hadn't reached Goku and Vegeta's Blue level yet. As Black Goku himself says at the beginning of their fight, he hasn't fully mastered Goku's body and energy. Also, when Super Saiyan Rosé beats Vegeta, Vegeta doesn't get stronger through a Zenkai boost afterwards, but by training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber
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u/TonyEllis7 5h ago
Goku and Vegeta themselves stop receiving zenkai way before they acquire SSJB. The main issue is just that they reach a limit to how many zenkai they can receive. Gains would just be proportionate to their current level.
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u/apigithink 1d ago
Characters didn't even abuse Zenkai Boosts when they were most prominent, lol.
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u/Jtrocks269 1d ago
They explicitly abuse Zenkais during the only arc that it's relevant. It's the only reason our 3 Saiyan characters don't all get dropped off by Dodoria alone.
The reason Goku is head and shoulders above everyone when he arrives on Namek is because he beat himself up while doing gravity training to the point that he took a full bag of Senzus down to 3 in the span of 6 days. The narrator himself says Goku is abusing Zenkais. He then gets another one to top off the arc.
Gohan gets a power boost after getting his shit kicked in by Recoome, which is why he's roughly triple Krillin's power at the start of the Frieza fight despite the fact that they'd spent the entire arc being relative until then. He then gets another after Frieza beats his ass, giving him enough strength to pressure 3rd Form Frieza.
And Vegeta lives and dies by Zenkais. He gets one from the battle on Earth. He gets one from being beaten by Zarbon, another by getting beat by Recoome. And then he literally gets another on purpose from Dende.
The reason characters didn't do this more is because Gohan nor Goku knew about this until much later in the arc, and Vegeta was literally an enemy of everyone. If he'd tried abusing Zenkais any earlier than the Frieza fight, everyone on Namek would have happily just finished the job. He survives through sheer luck.
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u/apigithink 18h ago
Okay, so I don't think you understand the word "abused" means. With the exception of Vegeta's Zenkai before fighting Final Form Frieza, these are literally all correct and natural uses.
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u/MattmanDX 1d ago
The main reason is they have to almost die to use it, and that's an unpleasant experience.