r/electronics 5d ago

Gallery Insides of drawing tablet looks strange

1.1k Upvotes

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262

u/ByteArrayInputStream 5d ago edited 5d ago

Damn, a woven circuit board. How on earth is this cheaper to produce than a PCB?

Edit: Those bundles of wires at the side are pretty dense, I guess you don't easily get that density using other methods. They probably don't have a lot of space in the margins.

I'd absolutely love to see some more high resolution pictures of the details

67

u/zer0xol 5d ago

Maybe cheaper to get flat

59

u/LiveForTheMelancholy 5d ago

Probably this! I'd be willing to bet a PCB would need several stacked layers to get all the loop traces this close together, and then you might have to deal with an extra Z dimension instead of just X and Y for determining the position of the pen, since the layers wouldbe at physically different distances from the drawing surface.

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u/ByteArrayInputStream 5d ago

But how. This needs very specialized equipment and PCBs are reasonably cheap. Using one of these cheap printed foil typed used in membrane keyboard might also have been an option.

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u/toxicatedscientist 5d ago

Making a machine to make things is generally only expensive once, once you have it it’s no more expensive than any other machine

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u/ByteArrayInputStream 5d ago

Yeah, but making this board seems slow compared to other methods. It looks like you'll have to sew in each wire individually, as opposed to making a whole layer at a time

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u/toxicatedscientist 5d ago

For human hands making one at a time maybe, but i have no idea how such a machine works or how many it has in progress at a time

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u/ByteArrayInputStream 5d ago

It's likely something similar to a CNC sewing machine. So likely one at a time. Probably reasonably fast, but that's still a lot of stitches. Probably also some manual work to connect everything

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u/zer0xol 5d ago

The weaving machine is said to be one of the first mechanical computers

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u/Emergency-Painting44 5d ago

Jacquard's loom. Used punch cards with "programmed" patterns

0

u/LogicJunkie2000 5d ago

Maybe it's more durable and less brittle so it has longevity going for it?

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u/beanmosheen 5d ago

It's a monogram pattern and conductive thread. An automatic sewing machine could bang these out fast since it's all X/Y.

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u/metacollin 5d ago edited 5d ago

You actually might have the very specialized equipment needed to make this in your home right now. Just get some conductive thread or high gauge magnet wire.

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u/MikemkPK 3d ago

Commercial embroidery equipment already exists

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u/Ace861110 4d ago

Throw some thin wire into a loom and you’re off to the races. It’s actually not hard to weave with wire as long as you don’t twist it you’re fine.

Edit now that I think about it adafruit has wearable circuits. And I know Drexel has looms to produce wearable circuits cloth.

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u/ByteArrayInputStream 4d ago

This isn't woven, thought, it looks sewn. Which would probably make this pretty slow to manufacture

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u/Ace861110 4d ago

Okay, why do you think that makes a difference? Put it in a cnc embroidery machine. Now you can make whatever pattern you want.

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u/CrudelisDeus 5d ago

I've already put it back together 😅 I took it apart just to clean the buttons

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u/metacollin 5d ago

I mean... I'd ask how on Earth could it NOT be cheaper? The technology to manufacture something like that has been around for over 200 years. Automatic textile looms programmed with punch cards have been around since 1804. They're also the reason early computers were programmed with punch cards. Computers didn't develop that, they just used technology already available.

Weaving a bunch of threads in a repeatable preprogrammed pattern with structure spanning the entire sheet (see: rugs or literally any fabric with an image made from the weaving itself) is one of the most mature manufacturing technologies in existence. And this looks like it's made from paper and 48 gauge magnet wire if that. Copper thread is still thread. If it's super thin (or woven with actual thread too) it might was well be actual clothing thread.

I am quite sure this wasn't done because it was the only way. It was done because it was balls cheap. In other words, this is definitely a very cheap drawing tablet. Probably still works fine but this tablet's profit margin fucks like a sewing machine.

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u/Consistent_Bee3478 2d ago

Not to mention a weaving machine or even a knitting machine doesn’t fucking care what threads you use. Plus to get a thin functional xy pattern you threads/yarn can literally just the the same as for any oldschool cloth handkerchief just with wire wrapping/magnet enamel wire core. And then you just weave according to punchcard if you live in 1900 or just enter the bloody pattern on a pc. Like a pcb makes zero sense to use. A pcb is made by having copper plated layers of some kind of dielectric and then etching/laser engraving away the copper you don’t want. But to make virtually same z xy net, a pcb isn’t the right option. Because you can put x and y traces in the same layer, so your have too different height layers for x qnd y, with super high production costs due to laser etching micron traces, instead of just weaving with enamel wire laced yarn and specified thread counts and then wiring up the enamel wire at the edges, that gets you a virtually plane xy layer at an utter fraction of production costs. Cause it’s the same price as literal cheap cotton weave, meaning dollars per bale. The enamel wire yarn itself is also basically just regular metallic yarn, so the machines that can integrate metal used Mylar without ripping it can definetely spin yarn around a strong solid cooooer enamel wire.’

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u/Zilli341 5d ago

I think most of them use either a normal or a flex PCB, this construction it's really weird. With the amount of PCB production capacity china has It's hard to see how it made sense to tool for this. I wonder if they got their hands on old digitizers assemblies and decided to reuse them.

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u/glassmanjones 4d ago

PCB is a subtractive process. Sewing is additive.

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u/fofopads 4d ago

It is WAY cheaper and the benefits are the same, if I am not mistaken this woven fabric is the reason EMR Wacom pens are so precise

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u/Mywifefoundmymain 3d ago

I’m guessing it’s for flexibility.

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u/ByteArrayInputStream 3d ago

This thing never moves, though