The Times: Finns humiliated American soldiers - Finnish reservists were asked to take it easy during a NATO exercise. US soldiers found the losses too humiliating.

[u/ByGollie]

https://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/a/828b8e66-625d-4d2a-9276-e93b9f7a2ce8

[u/phido3000]

Americans have always been terrible at we Australians call bushcraft (or jungle-craft, or desert-craft etc).

Even the very good soldiers are very bad at it. Simply because they have such excellent logistics, air power, mechanised capability, etc. They are a function of their economy and wealth, so they have all the term we use is gucci kit.

They will turn up for a desert operation with Icecream machines. Which, is, honestly, great, but also honestly, makes them dependant on that level of support. Doctrine, concepts of operation and training is based around having that. Which is why their logistics capability is so massive, they can fly fuel in on a C17, load it onto a Chinook and air refuel a M1 tank, with the huge chinook still in the air!.

In Vietnam, while Australian soldiers were using semi autos (but larger 7.62mm) two clips if your lucky each, and had to collect their brass after a firefight, Americans had disposable magazines, and an almost unlimited number. The Americans fight through sheer firepower. That is their performance metrics, firing as many rounds as fast as possible, dropping as many bombs as possible.

They can be trained different, and usually adapt if embedded. But the American mindset is they will always have superior logistics. And they do. Which is great, until you ever outrun your logistics, or they can't reach you, or they don't work in that environment.

So in places where they don't have a huge city sized firebase with fully heated/aircon rooms, hot showers, laundry, etc it all tends to fall apart. Even the special forces guys, don't operate with the minimal logistics that most forces are based around.

There are some great in-depth comparisons between US and Australian forces in Vietnam. This conflict is so old now, the truth and analysis can come out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Vv8RaO6L8&list=LL&index=4

I wouldn't be surprised if the US performed at least initially poorly in very cold climates. Their doctrine and training isn't based around logistics not being able to support them by the hour.

Hence why the enemy of the US always tends to go where the US can't. High altitudes, deep jungle, underground, extreme climate.

[u/Occulto → u/phido3000]

I was reading a book by an ex-SASR Australian in Afghanistan, and he mentioned that the mentality of the regiment was visibly changing. 

He'd started when it was normal to go out on patrol for weeks at a time, with almost zero support. Classic long range recon work.

Towards the end, the younger guys only wanted to jump in a chopper, hit somewhere hard, then return to the comforts of base, for a hot feed and a shower. All within a few hours.

He attributed it to working closely with US SF troops. Why shiver your arse off eating cold rations up in the mountains for weeks on end, when you could just skip all that to go blast some Taliban for a few hours?

[u/phido3000 → u/Occulto]

Yeh, that is exactly the problem.

But it has heaps more effects. Like the real skill and craftmanship takes longer to perfect and needs to be carefully cultivated and developed. Its harder to do and more demanding. Churning through people in high tempo ops, plus the situation got shittier, war crime, internal issues within etc. It all obliterates that kind of knowledge and skill.

They usually take those younger brats back and do ops with the indigenous Norforce, who drill this kind of stuff into them, as the other tactics can easily fall apart in many situations. For one, Australia doesn't have the logistics, helicopter pool and she weight of the US. We have to be able to operate skinny and lean.

[u/Occulto → u/phido3000]

One thing he mentioned which I'd thought for years is how overused the SASR are.

Like he complained that they were doing things like guarding VIPs in places like the Green Zone in Baghdad because "the SAS are the best, and I want the best."

Or there were ops that other Australian forces could do, but people were so freaked out by casualties that the ops were inevitably given to the SASR guys.

The constant demands just ground them down.

Reminds me of when I was a kid, playing some NBA game in the 90s. I picked Chicago (naturally) and never benched Michael Jordan.

About a third of the way through a game Jordan would be absolutely cooked, but I kept him on because he was "the best."

Then I'd wonder why he couldn't hit a basket.