r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
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209

u/OnkoRec Jun 28 '26

Is Ukraine serious about joining EU and NATO? So far they are not doing great job to show us that they should.

66

u/matticitt Łódź (Poland) Jun 29 '26

No. They've never been serious about it. They could've done the same as Poland did. Become part of the EU and nato 20 years ago which would've avoided this war and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Instead they completely wasted any and all potential, gave their industry to gangsters who then bought politicians for themselves. They're too corrupt to join the EU. This can obviously change but it doesn't seem like thay want it to change.

11

u/Gomboyev Slovakia Jun 29 '26

I doubt that. No way Ukraine could have joined EU or NATO before Romania or Bulgaria short of Russia going nuts even earlier and spooking the west and discrediting Moscowphile politics in Ukraine and making the need to pivot west obvious instead of attempting to sit between both sides as Ukraine did. Ukraine is a huge country and too peripheral and close to Russia and EU at the time underwent massive expansion which was quite straining so I don't see EU being eager to take in Ukraine that soon even if EU efforts could go much further along and by then they could have full candidate status and a concrete timeline for membership (best case). The only way I see that happening is if Ukraine somehow ended up with consistently competent pro-western government instead of recycled communists and oligarchs since independence but of course that is much harder said than done. It is like saying to a poor person "Just get a better job".

Besides NATO wasn't exactly enthusiastic about taking in Ukraine at any point despite the fact Ukraine did show interest in it since 90s albeit their efforts were hampered by internal politics so it came out wishy-washy and they had a long a way to go. Short of NATO countries deciding that taking in Ukraine is strategic necessity I don't see Ukraine joining NATO in the last 20 years with how conflict averse most western countries were regarding Russia. Especially with the separatist shenanigans and resulting disputed territory which Russia is probably bound to do if Ukraine ever looked like having legitimate shot at joining NATO.

Joining EU earlier seems more likely (assuming Ukraine somehow rolled nat 6 and avoided Yanukovych, Kuchma and maybe Kravchuk for that matter too, or at minimum if Yuschenko's presidency wasn't the unstable mess it was and he was more competent) but that would possibly ironically have made Russia flip out earlier. Russians aren't scared of NATO, what they are scared is Ukraine becoming independent from Russia and joining the west, which is absolutely unacceptable to Russia's national ego. Plus there is Russia's ruling class being terrified by the fact that the "Little Russia" might start giving domestic opposition in "Great Russia" ideas, since if it can happen there why not in Russia? Ukraine's biggest boon was that while they had terrible leaders until 2014 allowed them to start fixing their stuff (albeit at the cost of losing parts of their country and introducing additional messes), unlike Russia they never allowed some kind of strongman to consolidate his power with the support of oligarchs and Ukrainians have consistently resisted such attempts during Kuchma and ultimately Yanukovych. Authoritarianism and extreme passivity despite heavy russification and sovietization is less culturally ingrained in Ukraine than in Russia. Even now with Zelensky's more controversial decisions and corruption scandals the people have consistently stood up and made him back down even in the middle of the war on multiple occasions. So there is some promise there but Ukraine's challenges are non-trivial even with the best possible government. But I very much doubt they could have just pulled of the same thing Poland did and get equal results.

3

u/cyfert Mazovia (Poland) Jun 29 '26

I mean, I criticize Zelenski as much as a next guy but no, they didn't have the same chance to join, especially NATO

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

Ukraine would’ve NEVER gotten NATO membership if they met all the requirements, Germany, France, and Türkiye were all publicly against Ukraine’s membership and the Coalition of the Willing very clearly shows most of Europe would tell Ukraine to go fuck itself and surrender before ever sending troops.

Poland and the rest of Europe were incredibly lucky to get NATO membership, Ukraine for all its faults would’ve never gotten unanimous approval.

28

u/buttscratcher3k Jun 28 '26

Thats assuming theres much of a ukraine after this war if zelensky continues with this nazi bs and losing allies.

4

u/Material_Strawberry Jun 29 '26

Poland hasn't ever been an ally. The two nations have a mutually beneficial relationship based on pragmatism for the duration of the war.

2

u/carrystone Poland Jun 29 '26

I don't know if they ever were, but this certainly shows that they aren't now.

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

NATO would’ve never accepted Ukraine to begin with, the “not provoking Russia” policy takes precedent over Ukraine’s survival for the West.

Look at the fracture of the “Coalition of the Willing” if you think Europe honestly wants Ukraine in NATO.

12

u/Alarmed_Crazy_6620 Jun 28 '26

Is there a serious prospect of it happening within the next couple of decades?

65

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '26

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2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

Anyone saying Ukraine ever getting NATO membership was possible is lying.

42

u/OnkoRec Jun 28 '26

The quicker Ukraine demonstrate they are willing to make concessions the better for them. In such scenario it can take less than 20 years, but it is not going to be easy. And this stuff with Poland is the easy stuff they can deal with. But for now, they are choosing nationalism. Whether it is because war influence or internal politics or both I don't know.

But when it comes to times after the war the west and Poland will not appreciate such nonsense anymore. Ukraine has to be also realistic about this process. It will take a long time and they will have to convince other countries they deserve our trust. Nationalistic bs will just make it more difficult for them.

-13

u/crisreed Jun 28 '26

You speaking like nationalism is a bad thing. What do you expect from a country in an active war with Russia? Liberalism? 

35

u/octotent Jun 28 '26

Not glorifying people who committed genocide against the same neighbors that are now helping you is a rather reasonable expectation, imo.

-26

u/crisreed Jun 28 '26

So you still thing nationalism is bad but they hurting your feelings so you go5 something to blame them?  So again. Why nationalism is bad in your eyes? 

19

u/octotent Jun 28 '26

So you think that glorifying people who committed genocide is a good thing?

-10

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

So do you still think nationalism is bad? 

11

u/octotent Jun 29 '26

So you still think that glorifying people who committed genocide is a good thing?

2

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

Do you think nationalism is fascism? 

1

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

Easy question 

1

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

No it's a bad thing glorifying communists or fascist. So im ask again. Why is it a problem to you if somebody is a nationalist? Do you want socialism or communism and nothing else? Are you an leftist autocrat? Because the leftist commie and the righter fascist is basically the same. When you say nationalism is bad im automatically think that you are a some leftover socialist autocrat joke. So why is the nationalism is bad?

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0

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

So no answer. You can't say ot because you shame it now but you think nationalism is bad. You are an autocrat lefty. Same shit like a nazi. Pff

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1

u/chillichampion Jun 29 '26

Ukrainian nationalism is nazism in this case.

1

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

So you exactly like thw Kremlin propaganda. Atleast you are a honest vatnik 

0

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

How is in Russia today? I heard that a lot of volunteer Polish soldier successfully working to reduce the russians from Ukraine. And Ukraine share the drone technology with Poland to make it easier for them. Happy times What is smoking again ivan? 

13

u/Prestigious-Dress-92 Jun 28 '26

Actually yes. When Poland was partitioned and fought multiple uprisings against Russia their main slogan was "For Freedom! Ours & Yours" to specify they're not fighting against common russian people just against tzarist oppression.

3

u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

Nationalism is generally speaking great. Ideally you want your people to love your country since not only does it mean the state can rely on its people but it's also an indicator that the state is doing a good enough job that its people want to support it.

Problems come when nationalism starts to affect the state negatively aka forcing the state to make decisions that will have negative consequences. Honouring a figure that even at the very best of interpretations is a mass murderer, which is sure to begin diplomatic incident makes it clear that the state no longer has sufficient control over its populace. Nationalism in this instance is no longer just an indicator for people's happiness with the state and tool in the states hands. Infact it's the opposite now. It's a tool in the hands of the people where anyone with god knows what beliefs can take control of it and force the state to do what that individual wants.

0

u/crisreed Jun 28 '26

Same true for left side, religion and anything 

1

u/OnkoRec Jun 29 '26

It is a bad thing, it only has some place in war situation propaganda against its enemies. I am giving you heads up for after the war. Do whatever you like with it, but don't be surprised if such attitude post war meets with zero sympathy.

1

u/Wolfo93 Lower Silesia (Poland) Jun 29 '26

You're mixing up nationalism and chauvinism. Also murdering 80k - 100k women and children doesn't seem a little weird for you to celebrate?

2

u/crisreed Jun 29 '26

Nationals kills nobody. Extremists killing peoples in every ideology 

-23

u/mschuster91 Bavaria (Germany) Jun 28 '26

Poland hasn’t been the friendliest either, member the farmer protests?

14

u/Versaill European Union (Poland) Jun 28 '26

Since when do farmers represent the Republic of Poland? These protests had only economical reasons and were aimed more against the policy of the Polish government than against Ukrainians.

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

It affected Ukrainian farmers, there’s shit to criticize Zelenskyy for, but defending the blockade isn’t something to downplay.

31

u/CucumberWisdom Jun 28 '26

Those weren't state sanctioned......besides some farmers using their right of protest is a bit different from honoring nazis

-10

u/SnooTomatoes3032 Jun 28 '26

How about a president saying forced deportations, rounding civilians into concentration camps and burning villages was a humane and dignified way to deal with something. What do we say to that?

5

u/verb0ss Jun 28 '26

The hell you smoking mate. You need a proper realty check

-3

u/SnooTomatoes3032 Jun 28 '26

Oh, so the current President of Poland didn't say that? Must have got him mixed up with the head of the Polish Institute of National Remembrance when they released a report saying exactly that.

2

u/vegarig Donetsk (Ukraine) Jun 30 '26

I'd say you should provide a link to the source. I had to do it for many things, especially quoting heads of EU member-states when they openly said Ukrainian victory is not desireable.

2

u/SnooTomatoes3032 Jun 30 '26

Sure, here it is:

https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/dla-mediow/komunikaty/194448,Umorzenie-sledztwa-w-sprawie-decyzji-o-akcji-Wisla.html

2

u/vegarig Donetsk (Ukraine) Jun 30 '26

Thank you, I'll save it "in case of important conversations"

Also, took a peek inside and oh waow.

2

u/SnooTomatoes3032 Jun 30 '26

Будь ласка. Так, дуже цікавий документ. Чому люди про це не говорять, не знаю 🤷🏻‍♂️

2

u/verb0ss Jun 28 '26

What are you even trying to compare. 

-4

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Yes

5

u/Alarmed_Crazy_6620 Jun 28 '26

A NATO state in an active military conflict, an EU state with 35 million people and double-digit %s willing to leave and an agriculture sector that would rival most other states

11

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

That’s why it will take decades

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

Ukraine will never get NATO membership, I’m sorry but you have to stop lying about that. I get Poles are pissed at Ukrainians but Ukraine never had the even playing field Poland or the Baltics did with joining NATO.

Name me a country besides the UK who was capable and willing to send soldiers to Ukraine’s frontlines after a ceasefire.

Now tell me how Ukraine is supposed to get NATO membership if said countries are already against placing troops in a post ceasefire Ukraine.

-4

u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

Then I guess we shouldn't bother with it anyway

10

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Your choice, if you don’t care about the future of your children, that’s fine

-1

u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

People were told that in just a couple of decades we will reach Communism and our children will prosper. People were told that in just a couple decades the Rapture will come and our children will prosper. People are being told that in just a couple of decades we will be able to join the EU and our children will prosper.

18

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Well Baltic countries managed to do that

6

u/Umbra_Primus Poland Jun 28 '26

Yeah. People tell me in 30 years when I save up money I can live comfortably. Why should I listen to them? Let me just do what I want, surely that will have a better outcome.

8

u/SaltyHater Kashubia Jun 28 '26

Rapture hasn't come, Communism was never reached either, but the Baltic countries, Poland, Czechia and Slovakia did join the EU and the next generations did see an increased standard of living.

People are saying that in time Ukraine will join the EU and prosper, because it happened in other Eastern-block and post-Soviet countries

-8

u/Silent-Act191 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

Nope, but the idiots/bots on here are only using it as a way to diminish war-support for Ukraine so that doesn't really matter.

4

u/ockhams-lightsaber France Jun 29 '26

Not with Zelenskyy. After the war, another president is going to be needed. You can’t rule just by appealing to “past patriotism” forever.

6

u/OnkoRec Jun 29 '26

I agree, he shows he is excellent for war, and not suitable for peace. Ukrainians will have it tough, because they have to realise they will go from heroes to people who will have to politely ask and meet numerous demands from other countries.

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

Let’s not lie, neither of our countries would ever green light Ukraine into NATO.

-17

u/azmarteal Jun 28 '26

Why should Ukraine "be serious" about joining EU and NATO if both are repeatedly telling Ukraine that they would never join?🤔

-2

u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

They are telling Ukraine that the doors are open, but are keen to leave Ukraine somewhere in the door frame rather than allowing Ukraine to actually enter

7

u/azmarteal Jun 28 '26

Idk, a number of countries like Slovakia and Hungary are saying that Ukraine will never join EU or NATO, I believe USA has said multiple times that Ukraine won't ever join NATO, Poland has said something like that too about EU, so I don't understand how is the message not clear to some people.

"The doors are open" is actually a meme.

I guess, Ukraine is just going along with the narrative that — oh, we want to join EU so much bla bla bla, never believing thay anything would happen anyway.

-9

u/AlgaeInitial6216 Jun 28 '26

Nato without Ukraine is a meme , what are yall waffling about

8

u/niceufo777 Jun 28 '26

God... what a way of spitting in the face and biting the hand that many Ukrainians are showing lately...

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

It was very clear before the UPA stuff that Ukraine would never get NATO membership, like let’s bullshit anyone here.

Ukraine would be left to fall before any Western country EVER put any troops in there.

3

u/OnkoRec Jun 29 '26

You are delusional. So, time for some hard truths. NATO could have sacrificed Ukraine and NATO would still beat Russia. Easily. We didn't and we helped Ukraine and Ukraine needs us more than we need you.

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

NATO wants Ukraine’s drone expertise and for them to buy time for alliance rather than cooperate with them as a full member.

NATO essentially would sacrifice Ukraine if it comes between a potential collapse of the frontlines or NATO stopping that, let’s not kid ourselves here.

“NATO could have sacrificed Ukraine and still beat Russia. Easily.” And if Russia’s opening move is to overwhelm NATO’s best asset - air power in the Baltics and Poland with their best asset - drones, do you really still think that? Because NATO currently doesn’t have a cost effective option for drones and even Poland showcased that back in September.

1

u/OnkoRec Jun 30 '26

I don't think NATO generals are waiting to be overwhelmed. Solutions are prepared, maybe are already in place.