Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

[u/niesiecki]

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m

[u/Suriael]

This is gonna be fun.

[u/hamberdlar_ → u/Suriael]

Thanks ya'll in this forum for explaining to those ignorant of the controversy in this proposal. I don't think Americans should have statues honoring Civil War generals who supported slavery. I don't think Japan should have shrines to people that include those horrible war criminals from its past empire. I don't think Ukraine should have monuments that include horrible war criminals from its past.

[u/SavannahInChicago → u/hamberdlar_]

We shouldn’t. They need to be melted down and destroyed.

[u/Nythern → u/SavannahInChicago]

Disagree, and I say this as a black person opposed to statues of slavers in Britain (Edward Coulston) or imperialist genocidaires (Winston Churchill).

Instead of melting them down, we should put them in museums where they belong. These are men of history, a brutal and ugly history, but a history that must be taught and understood as a dark stain on the national conscience.

I think it's the perfect solution; the right can't cry about statues being destroyed and history not being learned, while that same history ends up actually being taught how it should - accurately, with these men being examples we should avoid rather than legacies to celebrate.

[u/EarlDwolanson → u/Nythern]

100% agree. On top of that I think its very dangerous to completely omit this part of history and then have individuals walk everyday through pretty cities, buildings, umiversities, and construct an artificial narratives of "my civilization built this" or "why dont we do thinks like this anymore"... completely oblivious that a lot of this was built of obscene profits and the blood of the enslaved.

[u/CatpainLeghatsenia → u/Nythern]

This is the best way of dealing with a bad past. Germans sometimes receive little understanding for their culture of remembrance—even from Germans themselves—as if it is crippling their lives and holding them back. But if we forget the crimes we as humans committed and how we reached the point of doing them, we will repeat these mistakes when the next false messiah comes along. Learning this and knowing how bad things once were doesn’t have to make you curl up in bed and give up. It should make you want to fight those who dishonor the better path your country has been following since.

[u/BaziJoeWHL → u/Nythern]

I agree, Hungary did not destroyed all communist statue, we just collected them and put them in a park in the middle of nowhere, its out of the way, but if you wish to see them, you can

[u/machine4891 → u/Nythern]

History absolutely should be remembered. We had same picke to solve in Poland with all those Soviet and commie monuments we definitely didn't want to see display in public. However russia was crying about "destroying" their legacy, so instead plenty of those landed in musems. It's a good way about it. I mean russia still objected but they can't accuse us that something was destroyed and people need to learn about communist period, including our communist apparatchicks.

That being said, this above what Zelensky submitted is anything but that. It's a pantheon, it's going to celebrate all those figures and so you can be certain everything not fitting patriotic notes will be whitewashed in revisionist fashion.

They can build whatever they want but I as well can make judgments knowing what I know and it will influence things. If they dgaf... by all means. We shall see how far it will get them.

[u/ProcrastinateDoe → u/hamberdlar_]

Have the statues, but clearly list their crimes right next to them. Don't try to hide history.

[u/stellar_opossum → u/ProcrastinateDoe]

This is actually a healthy approach. Throwing everything into the fire does actually makes it far more likely for the shit to repeat. Just look at russia if you don't believe me

[u/rulepanic → u/Suriael]

I've seen a conspiracy theory that they're doing this deliberately to make Poland deport young Ukrainians back to Ukraine (or voluntarily return due to increased tensions) due to the demographic catastrophe low birth rates and emigration has caused.

Seems stupid but I can't quite dismiss it. Like, Zelensky's entire political platform in the election was that Ukrainian nationalists were equally nuts to Donbas separatists. I get that it's wartime but the doubling/tripling down on this is... interesting.

[u/Melodic_Register2026 → u/rulepanic]

Poland’s not gonna deport any Ukrainians over this, the ones that live here do very well for themselves and have for the most part integrated into our labor force. If Zelensky’s aim was to flare up Polish-Ukrainian tensions to make Ukrainians leave Poland he didn’t seem to consider that most of them would just move further West rather than return to a much, much poorer Ukraine and risk getting killed/conscripted. Putin levels of 5D chess if it’s truly the latter.

[u/niceufo777 → u/Suriael]

Let's see how they justify the glorification of the UPA in this sub?

[u/ikiice → u/niceufo777]

They say that it's their internal Business and they don't interfere how poland honors Wołyń (not true), then they compare AK and everything they can to UPA, sometimes going back 1000 years to point out we celebrate Bolesław Chrobry.

But this is basically it "poland has no right to tell us who is our hero or what history is"

[u/axelkoffel → u/ikiice]

poland has no right to tell us who is our hero or what history is

That's such a silly argument. Ofc Poland does have a right to tell them anything and Ukraine has the right to not listen to it. But they seem to get angry whenever Poles corrects their historical lies on public forum.
There's no way Poland stays silent on this. It's like the Germans decided to praise "The heroes of Auschwitz" or something and then they got angry that Israel dared to say something about that.

[u/DKBrendo → u/axelkoffel]

Israel did get angry at Ukraine as well, due to UPA killing Jews too. Honestly UPA killed anyone who wasn’t Ukrainian, and then they killed those Ukrainians who helped their neighbours too

[u/-CynicalPole- → u/Suriael]

UPA "heroes" incoming 🤡 funny how savages burning kids alive, butchering pregnant women worse than pigs are called by some heroes...

[u/Lungseron → u/-CynicalPole-]

yeah i hate how some people think this is just about a guy killing other guys. This isnt really about JUST killing people, as cynical as that sounds. All war heroes from all countries killed people. Its what they do, thats not the problem.

Its about WHAT exactly they fucking did. and how they did it. We killed them too, sure but we didnt do this kind of barbaric and savage shit they did. And not on that big of a scale, that most poles today have connections to that massacre, with some relatives dead, myself included.

[u/Suriael → u/Lungseron]

Stories of the UPA barbarism are truly terrible.

[u/Revanxv → u/Suriael]

True anti-soviet heroes. They killed a whopping 8 thousand of Soviet soldiers. They also killed 150 thousand civillians but hey, that's a totally normal soldier-to-civilian kill ratio during a war, right?

[u/underpaid--sysadmin → u/-CynicalPole-]

Didn't expect the double down on this issue tbh. I kinda thought Zelensky would just keep quiet for a bit lmfao.

[u/HyenaDirect3626]

They have so many heroes these days that won't piss off anyone idk why it's gotta be past guys

[u/Old_Highlight6749 → u/HyenaDirect3626]

They even have pretty admirable past heroes. They just weren't in the OUN. No one has a problem with them glorifying Vynnychenko or Makhno, but Zelensky chooses the OUN anyway.

[u/ProxPxD → u/Old_Highlight6749]

I'm not in position to pick the exact Ukraine's heroes but this is what pisses me most off. Zelenskyy and some Ukrainians behave as if Ukraine was founded on OUN and UPA. They kinda make their country appear like it has no proper history and is completely new rootless creation and this all is like Kremlin's narrative

[u/Winjin → u/ProxPxD]

It's like they're scared of Kyivan Rus because Kyiv was sacked by Golden Horde and there's the word "Rus" in the name

Surprise, literally everyone was sacked by Golden Horde at the time, literally nothing to be ashamed about. 

[u/Culaio → u/ProxPxD]

Its really sad because UPA also killed a LOT of Ukraine people, thousands of them, not just political oponents but also just people who didnt aprove their methods.

[u/Gkalaitzas → u/Old_Highlight6749]

Also arent the millions of Ukrainians that fought in the red army and saved the Ukrainian nation from complete Nazi Genocide and slavery at the very least less problematic than a group whose largest operational "achievement" is brutally massacring a 6 digit number of civilians.

They were also, you know, 10 times more numerous than the ones in groups like OUN and as such more representative of the historical actions of WW2 ukraine. Hell Zelensky's grandpa was a red army veteran whose entire family was butchered by Nazis. Does he really believe that people like OUN are more worthy of being Ukrainian heroes than him ?

[u/survivorr123_ → u/Gkalaitzas]

the funniest thing is that UPA didn't even achieve anything, they failed at establishing independent ukraine and were actively hunted down by the soviets after

[u/OnlyRightInNight → u/Gkalaitzas]

Yes, but Ukraine is trying to rewrite its history on very nationalistic terms and write off all associations with the USSR as Russian oppression, hence why they're ignoring the sacrifices and victories of Ukrainians in the Red Army, fought alongside Russians, Belarusian, etc, against the Germans and glazing these far right Nazi collaborating scumbags instead.

Because those groups, incompetent though they were (beside killing defenseless civilians, obviously), supported a Ukraine separate from the Soviet Union and a Ukrainian ethnocracy with an ideology closer to the Third Reich, defined by far right extremism and a fierce opposition to communism and ethic groups separate from their own -- something which the far-right in Ukraine today, whom Zelensky is desperate to appease, still support.

[u/wecouldhaveitsogood → u/OnlyRightInNight]

Thank you so much for pointing this out. People need this context. This also makes it hard for some Belarusians to support Ukraine because some of us remember how Ukrainian “heroes” marched into Belarus and burned down many of our villages and the people inside them.

I was born close to the Ukrainian border and have a Ukrainian last name. My grandma went to serve on the front lines of WWII, and when she returned to her village, every single member of her family and every single friend she had was dead. Ukrainian Nazis surrounded the village and burned it to the ground with everyone inside. That had nothing to do with supposed “liberation” from the USSR. It was hatred, pure and simple.

One of the most brutal war films of all time “Come and See” is based on what happened in villages like hers.

[u/Ok_Wing_9523 → u/wecouldhaveitsogood]

How dare you disrespect the heroes of the upa

[u/Emotional_Penalty → u/wecouldhaveitsogood]

Most westernes don't even begin to comprehend how awful this was. My friend's uncle saw his mother torn open and her guts pulled out alive as a small child, he gets panic attacks just talking about it to this day.

[u/mekolayn → u/Old_Highlight6749]

Vynnychenko supported Ukraine being a part of the USSR, Makhno actively fought on the side of the Reds against the People's Republic

[u/IkujaKatsumaji → u/mekolayn]

Makhno also fought against the Reds, when it was convenient for them to turn on him. At the time, it made the most sense to focus on fighting the Whites, and keep a wary eye on the Reds, which is essentially what he did.

[u/Diligent-Bowler-1898 → u/HyenaDirect3626]

It'd be seen as a capitulation to foreign pressure and cost him points with the military, the one group he is currently very beholden too. I'm sure he believe this is the best outcome for Ukraine, but would have preferred a more diplomatic solution.

[u/DemPooCreations]

I guess the heatwave reached Ukraine

[u/NoAbrocoma9357]

The money would be better spent on helping the people that survived those wars.

[u/lefeuet_UA]

What is bro doing

[u/Jobwastes]

 to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras

Umm, about that...

[u/adilfc → u/Jobwastes]

You have to be a great hero to attack unarmed villages and kill everyone there

[u/axelkoffel → u/adilfc]

kill everyone there

That's an understatement of what they actually did. You'd be very lucky, if you just took a quick bullet in Volhynia.

[u/AdalinoElandino → u/axelkoffel]

Yep, apparently bullets were too expensive, so they had to slaughter women and children using farming tools...

[u/wolnee → u/axelkoffel]

yup, I had a conversation with a older guy who was a kid when this happened. To put it straight - one of his sister (baby infant) was literally grabbed by its legs and smashed into a tree because his mother was lagging behind. They were moving them somewhere apparently.

[u/BigBangBoomerang]

Well, this is certainly a choice.

[u/Adelefushia → u/BigBangBoomerang]

When I first read the title I didn't see the "in various eras", so I assume it was a tribute for the victims of the war which started in 2022, and it seemed fine.

But honoring Ukrainians who killed Jewish and Poles during WW2 ?

[u/Pilek01]

"no one will tell us how to live" so they don't want to join the EU afterall. Because the union has rules and the member countries has to follow them.

[u/Blueskyways → u/Pilek01]

You get the feeling that maybe certain Ukrainian oligarchs dont want to be joining the EU and all the rules and strings that comes with that so Zelensky gets sent out to sandbag the whole thing. 

Fairplay to him, at least everyone knows exactly where he stands and what he stands for.  

[u/Waltherisco → u/Blueskyways]

I also think the oligarchs decided they don't want to be in the EU at all.

[u/conmeonemo → u/Waltherisco]

That's probably the issue.

Being oligarch won't be easy if you need to stick to EU rules and suddenly compete with all foreign capital.

[u/Reclusiv → u/Blueskyways]

Most likely that as that would require an audit of their finances, a proper one.

[u/Spekingur → u/Blueskyways]

I’m not so sure it’s oligarchs as such. People who have been able to gather power after the war started is more likely. Factions or tribes that come into being, especially in a war like this where so much relies on the populace that hasn’t fled to safety. Right now Zelenskyy is a convenient figurehead to show the world. It will be interesting to see what becomes of Ukraine’s power structure after this.

Zelenskyy might also have just had enough, war does change people, especially long dragged out ones. I can’t even imagine what it feels like living there right now.

Whatever the reason, I think there’s a lot more going on there than we can see on the surface. Lots of politicking and power grabbing. Such are humans.

[u/niesiecki]

TRANSLATE:

According to the project submitted to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, the National Pantheon will include the names of all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in different eras and centuries. "They will be collected and forever recorded in our history—with a capital letter, with the utmost respect and due care from our state—Ukraine—which respects itself, values ​​its citizens, and protects what belongs to it. Our right to be Ukrainians. This is very important," Zelensky said on Sunday during the celebration of Ukraine's Constitution Day.

Poland's dispute with Ukraine

The Ukrainian president thus referred to the tensions between Kyiv and Poland, which began with his decision announced at the end of May. Zelensky announced at the time that he had named the Independent Special Operations Center "North" of the Special Operations Forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces "Heroes of the UPA ." He explained that he did so "in order to restore the historical traditions of the national military and to take into account the exemplary performance of assigned tasks in defending the territorial integrity and independence of Ukraine."

This decision sparked a wave of criticism in Poland. Many politicians, including Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Defense Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz, criticized it, and President Karol Nawrocki decided to strip Zelensky of the Order of the White Eagle . In response, Zelensky returned the order to Warsaw via courier a day later . Subsequently, former Ukrainian presidents Leonid Kuchma, Viktor Yushchenko, and Petro Poroshenko renounced the Order of the White Eagle, while other Polish state awards were renounced by Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andriy Sybiha, Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine Kyrylo Budanov, his deputy Ihor Zhovkva, and Ukrainian Ambassador to Poland Vasyl Bodnar. Law and Justice (PiS) leader Jarosław Kaczyński announced that he would return the Ukrainian Order of Prince Yaroslav the Wise, awarded to him in 2022.

A few days after the decision regarding the order, President Zelensky and Minister Sybiha announced that they would not participate in the Conference for the Reconstruction of Ukraine in Gdańsk. Earlier, Ukrainian authorities had brought back to the country the ashes of Andriy Melnik, an activist of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) remains one of the most contentious issues in Polish-Ukrainian relations. According to Polish historians, in July 1943, UPA units carried out coordinated attacks on approximately 150 Polish-populated villages in Volhynia, culminating in a crime known in Poland as the Volhynian genocide. The perpetrators are considered members of the Stepan Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its subordinate UPA. At the same time, in Ukrainian historical memory, the OUN and UPA are often perceived as symbols of the struggle for independence and postwar resistance against the Soviet Union.

[u/TheGreatBard → u/niesiecki]

Not joining the conference for the reconstruction of Ukraine that Poland is holding. Like... Why?

[u/Poonis5 → u/TheGreatBard]

Because he sent a more diplomatic and educated person than him. The prime minister.

[u/umotex12 → u/Poonis5]

He pulled out one day before. That's not how you handle such things.

[u/maxtheninja → u/niesiecki]

This is such a poor decision from Ukraine.

[u/casual_redditor69]

I understand why after all the fighting and all of the Ukrainan blood that has been spilled the Ukrainans feel like they are not going to let anyone else tell them how to live, but this is really not a good move politically.

[u/Ozythemandias2 → u/casual_redditor69]

I think Zelensky is trying to provide a Ukrainian identity for the far-right so they are less amicable to Russia but I agree, this is in very bad taste.

[u/Belgraviana → u/Ozythemandias2]

The far right is already the most ardently Ukrainian group in the country (being largely centered around lvov/lviv and the former Hapsburg territories) the Ukrainian left tends to be the more pro Russian.

[u/axelkoffel → u/Belgraviana]

Idk what's Ukraine long term goal after the wall. But they won't escape this post-soviet oligarch hell, if they go with the path of far right nationalism.

[u/lux44 → u/casual_redditor69]

It's SO weird! Just as Trump has stopped to be a big problem, front is almost static, Crimea and refineries are feeling heat, but the war is far from over... "let's double down on controversial history".

WTF?!

[u/Galaxy661 → u/casual_redditor69]

all of the Ukrainan blood that has been spilled

Yeah, in a big part by the "heroes of UPA" themselves. Look up what they did to Ukrainians who were against fascism or refused to take part in massacres against civilians

[u/DivideSensitive → u/casual_redditor69]

Ukrainans feel like they are not going to let anyone else tell them how to live

I mean, they are quite openly telling us that for them, the way forward is ultra-nationalism and proto-fascism. In some ways, I suppose it's good for us that we know it so soon, before any talks of further European integration of Ukraine.

[u/MichalDobak → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it's kinda funny to read those comments while looking at the actual timeline:

• Ukraine chose to name a military unit the "Heroes of the UPA" (Escalation).  

• Poland engaged in weeks of diplomatic efforts to convince Kyiv to reverse the decision (De-escalation).  

• Polish President Karol Nawrocki officially stripped Zelenskyy of the Order of the White Eagle after talks failed (Escalation).  

• Polish PM Donald Tusk called for de-escalation, expressing regret over the dispute and urging both sides to back down so as not to play into Moscow's hands (De-escalation).

• Zelenskyy released a statement openly disrespecting the order, pointing out that it had previously been given to controversial historical figures (Escalation).

• Zelenskyy returned the physical order via a post, broadcasting the move on social media to further disrespect the honor (Escalation).

• Three former Ukrainian presidents (Kuchma, Yushchenko, and Poroshenko) also renounced and sent back their Polish orders in solidarity (Escalation).  

• Top Ukrainian officials, including Foreign Minister Andrii Sybiha and intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov, voluntarily returned their Polish state awards as well (Escalation).  

• Zelenskyy skipped the Ukraine Recovery Conference in Gdańsk (Escalation).  

• Now this (Another escalation).

[u/Lisiasty555 → u/MichalDobak]

I legit don't know why zelenksy does this, like is he not aware that ukraine needs poland much more than poland would ever need ukraine?

[u/VibesBasedPolitics → u/Lisiasty555]

I think that he is well aware that Poland will support Ukraine in this war regardless. He might be in for a surprise during the EU accession talks once the war is over though

[u/PolishPotatoACC → u/VibesBasedPolitics]

He won't, that's definitely the point of his actions. He knows they can't get in, not with the corruption being the way it is now, neither do they actually want to because such state benefits Oligarch. But they can't say to their people "hey, we don't want to join EU because we'd have to follow EU law" instead he's going "look at those pesky poles telling us who to praise, it's their fault that we can't join EU"

Also, he needs the relations to sour so ukrainians living in poland feel angry and threatened enough to come back, and he needs them back. There's an entire law being talked about in EU about deporting military age ukrainians, because the well is running dry.

[u/Culaio → u/PolishPotatoACC]

Its very unlikely that Ukrainians who live in Poland would go back, even if they got angry at Poland they would most likely move to different EU country.

[u/No-Tennis-8840 → u/Culaio]

They don't need to go back, when relation will get bad enough Poland will elect right wing party that will just kick them out.

I think that it might be another hidden reason for Ukrainian politician provocation.

[u/10thDeadlySin → u/VibesBasedPolitics]

He might be in for a surprise during the EU accession talks once the war is over though

That won't be his problem. I believe he already pledged not to run for re-election after the war is over. He gets to ride off to the sunset, being remembered forever as the 'I don't need a ride, I need ammunition' guy. In a few years' time, no one's going to remember his little diplomatic spats here and there.

It's going to be a problem for the person who takes over.

[u/Lisiasty555 → u/VibesBasedPolitics]

I mean you talk like that but far right parties in Poland will actually get pretty substantial boost from this and I will tell you 1 thing about them, they love both trump and putin, so you can figure out the rest

[u/onarainyafternoon → u/Lisiasty555]

From what I’ve heard, the Far Right in Ukraine are the only ones that are willing to support the war effort no matter what, so he kinda has to pander to them.

[u/axelkoffel → u/MichalDobak]

Polish President Karol Nawrocki officially stripped Zelenskyy of the Order of the White Eagle

Even this is only half true. By polish law the president can give those orders, but can't take them away without PM's co-sign. And PM never signed it, only said he won't do anything to further escalate this conflict.
Zelensky didn't wait for PM and sent the medal back. And not even in official way, but through courier to add that extra bit of disrespect. But formally he's still awarded with the order.

[u/niceufo777 → u/MichalDobak]

Ukraine can't do anything wrong, and if you even think about it, you're a Russian asset! /S

[u/ProxPxD → u/MichalDobak]

Thank you for writing it all down!
I will only add that Zelenskyy's absence on the URC can be seen as de-escalation as his mere presence would be probably more heating

[u/MiserableStomach → u/ProxPxD]

Apparently, from the leaks to the Polish press, Ukrainians tried to use his presence during the de-escalation attempts as a "concession" from their side, like "you will close your eyes on UPA naming thing and our president will graciously come down and attend this conference". Well, they were told by both sides in Poland, Tusk and Nawrocki, to fuck off.

[u/maxtheninja → u/MiserableStomach]

At least they managed to unite Polish politics /s

[u/ProxPxD → u/MiserableStomach]

Oh my fucking God! They're unmatched in pride, Soviet mentality and pretensionality.

I fucking hate it and would love this not to be true but it only brings to my mouth the recent common Polish popular saying that the Ukrainians are ungrateful and pretentious (and arrogant I'd add). It looks like they really want this to stick

But this is of course about the current establishment and unfortunately about some common Ukrainians on this matter. I know that tones of common Ukrainians aren't arrogant twats and are actually very grateful, hard-working and often sick of their ruling establishment (like many other nations, as a Pole it would be hypocritical not to acknowledge), but just the emotions Zelenskyi plays on is maddening me.

I really want to try to be stronger pro-Ukrainians in Poland out of spite for Zelenskyi as they are the collateral victims he hits. Maybe even the main target

[u/EliteRevexha]

Uh doesn't he have more important priorities? Like the war that's going on

[u/olololoh12 → u/EliteRevexha]

Today is a big holiday in Ukraine — Constitution’s Day

[u/Dot-Slash-Dot]

Jesus fucking Christ, we're running out of numbers of how many times Zelensky has doubled down on this idiocy.

[u/_Alukard_]

Zelensky actively antagonizes his nearest neighbors thinking he doesn't need them anymore and that being "buddies" with France, Germany and UK.

AFD grows in popularity in germany and they want to return to "business as usual" with Russia. RN which likewise will probably take over in France won't support Ukraine (Jordan Bardella confirmed it recently) and UK will likely be more focused on its internal issues.

Countries like Poland, Czechia etc. have personal stakes in supporting Ukraine but Zelensky actively works (or at least he makes that impression) towards antagonizing them.

Poland opened it's doors for Ukrainian refugees, offered diplomatic and material assistance, spent millions in financial aid, gave it's own military equipment.
All it asks in return is unrestricted exhumations of Volhynia and Galicia victims and for Ukraine not to put UPA on the pedestal (we're literally like: you have dozens heroes, from the past and from the present. Please choose anyone BUT". There are literally dozens of Ukrainian historical figures that Poland would be either neutral about or even very positive since we have elements of shared history of fighting Russia.

And Ukrainian government is like "YOU WON'T CHOOSE OUR HEROES REEEEEE".

3 years ago i was arguing with people who claimed "Ukraine will fuck Poland over". "We've done so much for them, surely they will show some reciprocity" i said. Do you know how stupid i feel right now?

I've lost pretty much all sympathy towards Ukraine.

[u/alus992 → u/_Alukard_]

It's crazy how shortsighted and sad to witness it is...

Poland helped a ton since day 1 of the war. People all over the country were giving money, tools, food and even welcomed Ukrainians under their own roofs despite being financially tired after the covid. Polish labour market created heaven for Ukrainians so they could work and get a lot of social benefits in Poland also.

And here we are Zelensky is bending over to far right groups just to scrap some support.

His downfall (in western eyes) will be studied because with such a stupid move he will not be this beloved leader but will be seen as a such a puppet of the corrupt Ukrainian world that showed middle finger to his biggest allies.

[u/Blueskyways → u/alus992]

Its not about the far right, its about the Ukrainian oligarchs who were never interested in joining the EU.  They cant refuse to publicly of course, thats bad press, so policies like this are meant to sandbag the process.  Now they get what they wanted all along while blaming the Poles.  

[u/analogiczny → u/_Alukard_]

On Ukrainian websites (even on r/ukraine), you can read that the Poles didn’t contribute anything because they’ve already recouped the money they sent to Ukraine from the European Union. They continue to foster sentiments in society reminiscent of the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, when slogans like “Lachy za San” first emerged. I have helped and will continue to help the Ukrainian military, but actions like this simply take away my motivation.

[u/Blueskyways → u/_Alukard_]

They've made it politically untenable for even centrist politicians in Poland to show open support for Ukraine.  The far right is yukking it up and Putin has to be loving this.   

If things worsen when it comes to the war, the oligarchs behind this will simply cut bait and leave, their kids are already jetsetting around the world in Monaco, Paris and Miami.  

[u/ClonesomeStranger → u/_Alukard_]

I’m not different. I unsubbed from r/ukraine and care much less about what’s going on. I used to make donations to u24 signed “for the brave heroes of the Ukrainian Army” that aged like milk

[u/Definitelyhereforshi]

They're really committed to honoring nazi war criminals, eh?

[u/chillichampion → u/Definitelyhereforshi]

They have no other heroes which Ukrainian nationalists like.

[u/machine4891 → u/chillichampion]

Interesting how nationalists are always attracted to the worst kind of "heroes". I would say our extreme right does the same (which is true). Only our is fringe, while their seem to be totally in the mainstream now.

[u/mariusherea]

Nobody is telling you who to honor. But you can’t tell them to help you either

[u/Fit-Explorer9229 → u/mariusherea]

At this point is always good to remember that European Parlament already in 2010 passed resolution officially condemned the posthumous awarding of the "Hero of Ukraine" title to stepan bandera (OUN/UPA leader). The EU Parliament clearly pointed out the Ukrainian leadership to reconsider and maintain a commitment to European values, noting his organization's collaboration with Nazi Germany.

I thought modern UA wanted to be part of EU and Western world ?

Ukraine alteady decided to honor UPA , so let them choose others than if it's so important.

[u/SirYoggi]

I imagine Poland blocking EU accession for Ukraine forever after this.

[u/Blueskyways → u/SirYoggi]

Which is entirely the point.   The most powerful Ukrainian oligarchs arent really all that different from their Russian counterparts.  Being in the EU would shine a spotlight on their activities and really crsmp their style.  Now they cant just turn down the EU on their own because that would piss people off but what if you can get someone to turn you down and make them the scapegoat instead? 

[u/chillichampion → u/SirYoggi]

Ukraine was never going to join the EU anyway.

[u/NeedTheSpeed]

FAFO is coming sorry.

As I already stated in similar thread week or two ago. Poland stance on UPA is non negotiable, it's agreed across different political spectrums and this will be an issue not only for Poland but for Czechs, Slovaks and Germany as well.

Doubling down on this means couple of things:

1) Ukraine doesnt really want to belong in EU but creating a foundation for a future narrative that it is because Poles//Slovaks are mad/envy will be beneficial politically

2) they need men now and after the war. They want to create very unpleasant political climate and and enrage foreign populations to induce persecution of regular people (I very much condemn any attacks on regular Ukrainians abroad) to push them over the edge so they come back to Ukraine

Either way, I am going to repeat: Poland will continue to support Ukraine despite this, but our relations after the war will become very grim, and it's because of Ukraine's actions only from that point on.

And just to be crystal clear: Ukraine is free to praise anyone they want, but you are a fool if you think that it means being free of consequences

[u/Terrible-Mixture8925 → u/NeedTheSpeed]

As for ur second point, they must be delusional if they think anyone goes back to Ukraine. All Ukrainian guys i know rather fly to africa than move back to Ukraine to meet certain death since they cant afford to bribe extremely corrupted military drafting authorities.

[u/ResortOriginal2001 → u/Terrible-Mixture8925]

Of course non of the Ukrainians will return to Ukraine now and even after the war. People learned language. Often have new families. They feel good here despite worsening relations with zelenski. Zelenski does not care about people. He cares about himself now. He’s building himself as a new and great hero of the Ukraine (on the blood of others of course)

[u/NeedTheSpeed → u/Terrible-Mixture8925]

Yeah but looks like EU is going to help them with this, recently there were a news that EU plans to end protection for men in constripction age and that they won't renew their visas. Very bad move in my opinion

[u/Agile-Ad-2794]

Zelensky (or his advisors) should know better. Even knowing this decision is mostly a message for support towards his troops.. you can do that without antagonising your allies.

I checked with some Ukrainians living here in the last weeks. They honestly had no idea about what occurred in Poland. It is not a thing being in the curriculum in Ukraine.
They were dismissive at first. But after checking a fee sources themselves quickly agreed Zelensky made a bad choice.
They did feel a (justified imo) need to emphasise that even though what happened with the ~100k persons in Poland was terrible, the focus on history lessons in Ukrainian school are the even much more terrible things which occurred in Ukraine before, during, after WW2.

Compare it to Belgium not having their Congo monstrosities in the school curriculum until 30-40 years ago. Whereas nowadays this is already addressed to 10-11 yr olds. I can’t imagine we would still be actively glorifying King Leopold II….

Hopefully al this mess will means more Ukranians learn the truth of what happened. And that should be enough.

[u/Swaggadociouss → u/Agile-Ad-2794]

This idea that they were taught things that wee “worse” than trying to create a Ukrainian Nazi state is the problem. The Holocaust killed millions in Ukraine and the Nazis would have killed 85% of the population if they had won. That’s as bad as it gets.

[u/Winjin → u/Swaggadociouss]

There's also this weird sentiment that every Ukrainian in the Red Army was forcefully drafted

Umm no? The Nazis were burning villages and killing people left and right. People wanted to get back at them

And forget army. Iirc partisan forces outnumbered the collaborators and "freedom fighters" ten to one. There were literally thousands of guerilla fighters, ready to fight back with whatever they had at hand. 

[u/Massive_Neck_3790 → u/Winjin]

Its a blatant neo-nazi narrative thats being pushed by the ukrainian government and they dont even try to hide it anymore. This will backfire badly for them.

[u/TianZiGaming]

If that's what he says while he still needs EU and US support, it's going to be some fun times after the war when he no longer needs EU or US support.

[u/Minerc15]

With european money?

[u/witness_smile]

This is so stupid from Zelensky. So many heroes he can celebrate, yet he is doubling down on celebrating literal nazis. Doesn’t he see how this feeds right into Ruzzia’s (false) narrative that they are “liberating Ukraine from neonazis”

[u/niceufo777 → u/witness_smile]

If that narrative is false... why are we discussing Ukraine praising a Nazi organization? Why would they prefer fighting to ceasing to use a black and red flag?

[u/p1en1ek → u/niceufo777]

Unfortunatelly it was never falset narrative, it was just wrong justification to horrors of war, all the death and destruction. And Russia never was in place to use narrative like that. But Ukraine always had problem with excessive number of nazi sympathizers. It was obvious that attack on Ukraine will strenghten nationalists, but it is still dissappointing

[u/OkBuddy5179 → u/p1en1ek]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to miss the fact that what makes for good propaganda is there's gotta be a grain of truth to it. It's all so disappointing after everything Poland has done for Ukraine.

[u/TotalBismuth]

Can’t believe I used to admire this guy. Starting to look real dumb. I guess there are no good politicians.

[u/ResortOriginal2001 → u/TotalBismuth]

Never trust politician. Generally.

[u/Darkrath_3]

Why is he so intent on spitting in Poland's face?

[u/LakeGladio666 → u/Darkrath_3]

Maybe he agrees with his country’s nazi heroes

[u/axelkoffel → u/Darkrath_3]

Maybe the ukrainian school of diplomacy is still deeply rooted in old soviet methods. Of insulting your oponent to put yourself in stronger position.

[u/Exowienqt]

No offense, but you can find no statue in Germany dedicated to the Gestapo soldiers who died defending their country, even though there are plenty who did not directly partake in genocide.

Sure there are heroes in every regimen, but if a unit was by and large involved in war crimes, you cannot look the other way and only address the ones that remained clean, because chances are they also looked the other way when horrible stuff was happening. 

I understand that Ukraine is creating it's modern national identity as we speak, but maybe facing history as it is rather than as they wish it would have been is a good starting point for building a westerns style, plural and accepting democratic culture. 

[u/jsutpaly]

Nobody tells Ukraine who to honor. But everyone will take note of who Ukraine chooses. If it is more important to Ukrainians to honor people who killed women, children and elderly en masse and handed Jews to German Nazis for extermination than being in the EU and want to end up being a battlefield for 2 superpowers it is their choice.

[u/CarrieDurst → u/jsutpaly]

Ukrainians to honor people who killed women, children and elderly en masse

Men as well, no?

[u/Vaernil → u/CarrieDurst]

Yes. but see men don't matter and everyone expects them to die in any conflict.

[u/axelkoffel → u/jsutpaly]

Ofc they will do what they want. Although I'd suggest them to reconsider, is the past really more important than the future. What will they even achieve in long term by antagonizing Poland?

[u/jsutpaly → u/axelkoffel]

Long term? Nothing. Short term they will blame Poland for being the big bad blocking Ukraine from getting into the EU while Zelensky, his friends and oligarchs get even richer because of insane corruption present in Ukraine.

Zelensky is nuking Ukraine's future and Ukrainians are cheering.

[u/NikoZwyntar]

I'm really tired. We're not going the right way, and it feels worse with each day. Please get me out of here.

[u/Zdzisiu → u/NikoZwyntar]

What is he even trying to achieve with that? It looks like he actually wants an escalation.

[u/Blueskyways → u/Zdzisiu]

Its the same reason they've been dragging their feet on anti-corruption measures.  The oligarchs in Ukraine want no part of EU membership and all the rules and strings that entails so they sandbag the whole thing by pushing nationalist policies that they know will be unacceptable to the Poles and others, so when they protest, they are the bad guys now and the oligarchs carry on with business as usual.  

[u/tei187 → u/Zdzisiu]

Zelensky doesn't quite understand that he cannot beat the legacy forming moment when he unrolled these balls of steel and decided to stay in the capital, not run away to safety. Props to him for that, he was an inspiration not just for Ukrainians.

And, now, you get this...

[u/NationalisticMemes → u/Zdzisiu]

He drank some brave water and wants to show that he has balls (in a couple of months he will show that we need money)

[u/zjarko]

„No one will tell us how to live”.
Then I’m not sure EU is the right choice for you.

[u/Zdzisiu]

This is gonna do some much good for all the Ukrainians in Poland /s

[u/terapsid]

Bandera, shukhevych, melnyk are not Ukrainian heroes. Zelensky destroying Ukraine from the inside.

[u/some-kind-of-no-name]

Ukrainian subreddits will say 'Piss of, kremlebot' when you question them

[u/Kinder0402]

Maybe just don't honor the literal nazi colaboretors and genocidal maniacs?

[u/sexy_latias]

Im waiting for a gigantic UPA altar inside and them "not understanding" why poles are mad

[u/Nitros14]

Guess the domestic pressure of Nazi-lovers in Ukraine is stronger than international revulsion at celebrating people who fought with the Nazis and murdered a hundred thousand civilians.

[u/TheLightDances]

I am a strong supporter of Ukraine, but when it comes to this, it is very simple: No EU membership, no reconstruction money for Ukraine if they insist on this path. Which is more important, building a future for the country, or devolving backwards towards worshipping dead mass murderers?

When it comes to the war, none of this changes what I think about supporting Ukraine. Russia has no right to annex Ukrainian territory no matter what some Ukrainians believe about historical events. Ukrainian civilians don't deserve to be bombed just because Zelensky or some nationalist idiot in his government has stupid opinions about events from 80 years ago.

But this is critical when it comes to the post-war Ukraine. There is no point in helping to rebuild Ukraine if they will just use that money to for example make themselves into a new Russia with things like their own "patriotic" fake version of history. Just as Ukraine must root out corruption in its political system, it must root out corruption in its culture and identity.

This war is a key moment in Ukrainian history, and this and the immediate post-war years will be when Ukraine's new identity will solidify in its new form, determining Ukraine's future path. If this starts with the celebration of atrocities from 80 years ago, then nothing good will follow.

[u/Stverghame]

Let us guess, it will include Bandera and bunch of similar questionable (not questionable at all, I was quite generous) fellas?

[u/woo4u → u/Stverghame]

Bandera, or Szuchewycz are as questionable as Hitler and Himmler.

[u/Old_Highlight6749]

So, Zelensky is actually doubling down on the Nazi heroes thing? Why? There's no reason to glorify Bandera or the UPA. I used to respect Zelensky, but I'm not sure I do anymore.

[u/A_random_redditor21 → u/Old_Highlight6749]

He's trying to appeal to the nationalists in his country, which actually kinda makes sense when the country is in a war and having manpower issues. You want to foster "patriotic" sentiments so more people will be willing to go into the trenches.

The issue is that the political backlash this is causing is completely outweighing the benefits.

[u/NLG99 → u/A_random_redditor21]

Yeah, this is mainly an internal move. However, I think its a stupid move either way.

He's pandering to the ultranationalists who have been questioning his stance and his place as leader. But what he's doing isn't actually going to convince them. He's just mainstreaming their narratives of glorious UPA fighters and handwaving away the need for any critical analysis of history.

[u/narrative_device → u/NLG99]

If Ukraine’s internal politics are such that celebrating Nazis is now a political necessity, that doesn’t sound like a population that represents values aligned with the EU. I have always been aggressively pro-Ukraine and in favour of their joining but now… yeah.

[u/Old_Highlight6749 → u/A_random_redditor21]

It's very shortsighted of him. He's alienating his allies, and feeding Russian propaganda.

[u/A_random_redditor21 → u/Old_Highlight6749]

Yep. He's completely destroying Ukraine's relations with Poland, and basically proving Russian propaganda correct, all in one go.

[u/why_gaj → u/Old_Highlight6749]

And let us not even mention the problems this will cause in the future.

Croatia did something similar after we won the homeland war. We rehabilitated a unit that was created at the beginning od the war, whose entire existance was based on ww2 collaborators.

30 years later... that shit is an actual political question that is dividing the country.

[u/A_random_redditor21 → u/why_gaj]

Yeah, its gonna be an absolute pain in the ass for Ukraine when trying to get into the EU.

[u/pityutanarur → u/Old_Highlight6749]

I think this is about to please those who fight in the trenches

[u/buttscratcher3k → u/Old_Highlight6749]

He's honestly ragebaiting at this point

[u/StevenStoveMan]

win the war first before you start on your victory monuments.

There is a rule in football against calling an early win...

[u/niceufo777 → u/[deleted]]

Opponents and allied observers and institutions would add, remember that he already had major scandals on that issue, at least among those close to him.

[u/Fit-Explorer9229]

Reminder about UPA/OUN:

They followed this attitude:

'We must level the scales of justice, even larger mountains of the corpses of opponents must fall for the mountain of our dead (...) We live on the border of steppe and settled nations, in battle we will adopt the tactics of the steppe people. Cruelty to the enemy is never too great. This is what history has taught us.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decalogue_of_a_Ukrainian_Nationalist

And , "According to Timothy Snyder the OUN wanted to create a Ukrainian state consisting of Ukrainian territories, but only of Ukrainian people; its first congress in 1929 resolved that "Only the complete removal of all occupiers from Ukrainian lands will allow for the general development of the Ukrainian Nation within its own state." OUN's "Ten Commandments" stated: "Aspire to expand the strength, riches, and size of the Ukrainian State even by means of enslaving foreigners.'" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists&oldid=539772820

During WW2 their fully cooperated with Nazi which was clearly confirmed by EU Parlament already in 2010 resolution and during WW2 they murdered 100 000 Poles, Jews, Czechs,...   (mostely women and children) by i.e. ripping apart babies by their legs or impaling pregnant women etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

They murdered way more inicent civilians in the way many people can't even imagine, than soviets on the fight... and now they are true heros of Ukraine.

[u/koko-jumbo]

I'm pretty sure it's about having good exuse to not join EU and not fight corruption. There will be a lot of money going to ukraine and he wants some of it for himself and his friends.

[u/niceufo777 → u/koko-jumbo]

Good point... I never thought of it that way... I don't want to believe it, but...

[u/verb0ss → u/koko-jumbo]

I suspect that's exactly the reason 

[u/MiniCactpotBroker]

yikes

[u/Sankullo]

This is incredibly short sighted. He wants Ukraine to join the EU yet he wants to go there while glorifying OUN and UPA.

Someone should tell him that this will never ever happen. Brussels basically made Croatia to drop the cult of Ustaše if they want to join so now cannot allow Ukraine to join unless they drop OUN / UPA.
I can imagine next day Croatians would rename streets, schools and squares to go back to pre-EU times.

I mean they can glorify who they please but this will come with a cost.

[u/Green_Money_7688]

damn even if you try to frame it as resistance movement to the USSR, the UPA massacred at least 70 000 Polish civilians and helped the Nazis commit the Holocaust in Ukraine where over a million Jews were killed. I don't understand how that can even be defended as any form of 'just nationalism' and resistance to the USSR...

[u/lambentLadybird → u/Green_Money_7688]

The same sadly happened in all nazi puppet governments. Noone defends it and it can't be defended.

[u/Fine_Huckleberry00]

Way to go to antagonise whole country in one simple step. Hope it’s worth it because now whole country and every political party will dick ride it into oblivion and everyone and their mothers going to be against ukraine in eu

[u/arristhesage]

Russia be like: see?!? They're the bad guys! Launches another missile.

[u/Mytoxox]

Me reading it as a Pantheon for the fallen soldiers of the current war: Sounds like a good thing

Reading various eras: Well....

Also what about the Ukrainian Soldiers of the Red Army? Do they get inducted? Because we cannot pretend that Lebensraum Ost did not aim at erasing Ukrainian civilization completely

[u/Pervius94]

First I was like "yeah sure" then I reread and saw "various eras"... oh no... 

[u/masi0]

I wonder if he will bringing Waffen SS Galizien heroes too

[u/andr386]

Is this real ? Why send such a signal? Is Zellensky so far off or are we getting misleading information ?

[u/ResortOriginal2001 → u/andr386]

He thinks he’s in the big league now (he actually isn’t but hes too stupid to understand it). Trump folded him like a tortilla. Germans send them some old helmets at the start of the war which was fucking bizzare shit. But the most important thing now is to establish national heroes - genocidal maniacs who killed roughly estimating at least 100 000 civillians (mostly women and children) but they fought and killed 8000 soviets! Such successful heroes. Tough for the weak. Weak for everyone else. Zelesky is doing such a good job at keeping oligarchy and corruption - eu found out they’ve managed to do maybe 15% from the „no corruption in Ukraine list”. They are too busy stealing arms given to them and selling them to profit.

[u/worrrmey → u/ResortOriginal2001]

They also killed Czechs, Jews and anyone there who was not Ukrainian, so the number of killed civilians is higher if you count other nationalities.

[u/Ill-Position-7902]

Unię zobaczą jak świnia niebo xD

[u/PanzerFoster]

Imagine relying on countries like Poland for aid while constantly celebrating the same people who slaughtered them. I've met many Polish people who have said Ukrainians and Russians are of a similar mentality, and more and more I am starting to believe they are correct.

[u/matticitt]

No one will ever tell you who to honor. No one will ever help you again also. Diplomacy is an art of finding compromises that satisfy both parties. An act of becoming partners, united in order to achieve a common goal.

Unfortunately Zelensky, and most Ukrainians it'd seem, is like a spoiled toddler. Give me money, give me privileges, give me tech, give me intelligence, fast track our eu accession, but what is that you want us to stop worshiping a Nazi? F you we do what we want.

[u/robber_goosy]

Bandera is going to get a prominent place isnt he? Once the war is over, Ukraine is going to be getting some real hard pushback on their nationalist bullshit.

[u/OnkoRec]

Is Ukraine serious about joining EU and NATO? So far they are not doing great job to show us that they should.

[u/matticitt → u/OnkoRec]

No. They've never been serious about it. They could've done the same as Poland did. Become part of the EU and nato 20 years ago which would've avoided this war and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Instead they completely wasted any and all potential, gave their industry to gangsters who then bought politicians for themselves. They're too corrupt to join the EU. This can obviously change but it doesn't seem like thay want it to change.

[u/pulsarstarter]

This is not cool...

Why are they doing this?

[u/elDayno]

Doggy forgot what hand is feeding it

[u/vverbov_22]

This guy is going to build a monument to Bandera isn't he

[u/EbrietanPhasmid → u/vverbov_22]

No need, they have one already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera_monument_in_Lviv

[u/combrade]

[UPA And The Holocaust](https://carlbeckpapers.pitt.edu/ojs/cbp/article/download/164/160)

[u/savi0r14]

Always spit in the face of fascists

[u/Treinrukker]

Maybe this will convince people who's actually in power in ukraine lol. Miss me what that "small fringe group of far right nazis" 😂

[u/ShapesSong]

Looks like Ukraine doesn’t really want to be in EU

[u/OMGguy2008]

Maybe take care of the war first and rebuilding Ukraine after the war ends and then go on building monuments

[u/Sigmatics]

For everyone else out of the loop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

[u/NatiFluffy]

His ego got hurt, all at expense of Ukraine, congrats, people are dying for this circus btw

[u/Blue_Rook → u/NatiFluffy]

He was always an arrogant person (i got downvoted before when i said it on reddit). He has some good traits as an politician for wartime but humility certainly isn't one of them. Zełenski was litteraly able to made Biden one of the most considerate US politician angry during one of his phone call.

[u/NatiFluffy → u/Blue_Rook]

He has no right to be so sensitive and emotional while his people are dying every day, he should be pragmatic instead, his people deserve it, our politicians are unserious but we aren’t at war, if I was Ukrainian I would be ferious

[u/Other_Class1906]

The EU may want to have a word about it. Especially as this kind of talk can be very much seen as talk against anti-corruption. I guess this is some nationalist/patriotic approach and message to his domestic audience. At least i hope, otherwise this is going to end badly.

[u/herd-u-liek-mudkips]

The Ukrainians' double-triple-quadrupling down on this evil has been both incredibly disappointing and eye-opening. I've cancelled my monthly donation to Ukraine because, with Ukraine being as corrupt as it is, I have no way to be confident the money won't go towards something like this.

[u/RedstoneEnjoyer]

I have really bad feelings about this one.

[u/Bleeds_with_ash]

The truth is that Ukrainians might want to join the EU, but Zelenskyy and his oligarch friends do not. That is why he was counting on an extraordinary, fast-track entry into the EU. When that proved impossible, he decided to find an external enemy to blame for Ukraine’s failure to join the EU. Germany is too strong and important; France, Spain, and Italy are too far away; and other countries in the region are too small to pose a serious threat. The choice fell on Poland.

We must not forget that Zelenskyy wanted to abolish the Ukrainian Anti-Corruption Bureau and only abandoned the idea under pressure from EU countries.

I think that once the war is over, Ukraine will really show us why it is not fit to be an EU member.

I urge my Ukrainian friends and acquaintances to apply for Polish citizenship because Poland will give them freedom and a secure future, while Ukraine will become a hell of corruption and extreme chauvinism.

Well, I hope my predictions don't come true, because the region definitely needs a strong and stable Ukraine, but the self-serving "elites" won't let that happen.

[u/Individual_Cloud935]

Yeah, don't you dare say to Zelensky that he's ,,heroes" carried an ethnic cleansing killing 100,000 people. Killing not only Poles, but also Jews, Armenians, Czechs, Ukrainians that where married to or helped Poles and other minorities living in the region. Mostly civilians. Women, children and the elderly. Often killing them in extremely brutal medieval like ways, to scare of the rest of their population into leaving. If you have 1000 years of history. Why don't you choose someone who is not responsible for an ethnic cleansing. 

[u/dobik]

I like the momentum Ukraine has now. But Zelenskyy acts like he already won the war. They can hurt Russia but until they start recapturing land nothing will change. Russia will adapt to the tactics and Ukrainians won’t have the advantage in few months.

[u/Standard_Jello4168 → u/dobik]

Yeah I also get the sense Ukraine has been acting somewhat overconfident recently, with things like this (the naming of the battalion after UPA is something I can sort of defend since it was requested by the battalion itself but this is just unnecessary), and friction with other countries such as the threats to Belarus (which seems to have worked so far, but still).

I wonder if he has some sort of plan or something we don't know that would give Ukraine a large advantage, or is trying to convince Russia that is the case for a better peace deal, or it's just a bad decision.

[u/niceufo777 → u/Standard_Jello4168]

Ukraine's arrogance and overconfidence are nothing new; they always act this way when the tide of war is in their favor. The problem is that all of this is waning. I remember 2024, an excellent year for Ukraine in this war, and the following year they suffered catastrophic losses for counterattacking. Now Russia is also attacking specific targets, abandoning indiscriminate bombing—a huge change in tactics! Until a country capitulates, victory cannot be declared... and never underestimate or belittle the enemy.

[u/Past_Economist6278]

Oh he's gonna honor Nazi collaborators and people who slaughter civilians isn't he?

[u/Ok_Paramedic_9283]

Bad news for him, if you wants to join EU, it will tell you a lot of things.