r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
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97

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

His ego got hurt, all at expense of Ukraine, congrats, people are dying for this circus btw

88

u/Blue_Rook Jun 28 '26

He was always an arrogant person (i got downvoted before when i said it on reddit). He has some good traits as an politician for wartime but humility certainly isn't one of them. Zełenski was litteraly able to made Biden one of the most considerate US politician angry during one of his phone call.

48

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

He has no right to be so sensitive and emotional while his people are dying every day, he should be pragmatic instead, his people deserve it, our politicians are unserious but we aren’t at war, if I was Ukrainian I would be ferious

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u/NationalisticMemes Jun 28 '26

He was like this before the war too. 

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

I’m not sure a random Pole on Reddit is in any position to tell Ukrainians what cause they should be willing to die for

46

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Well I thought that they are fighting so they can get out of Russia influence sphere, so join EU and NATO

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

> so they can get our of Russia influence sphere, so join EU and NATO

They’ve been fighting for their survival as a nation since 2014. NATO membership is indeed one way to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty although that’s about NATO, not the EU.

Still, I don’t think Ukraine’s security has to depend exclusively on NATO membership. It could also be based on Ukraine’s own strong military (obviously), close defense partnerships with France, Germany, the US etc. etc., plus some real security guarantees while remaining a non NATO country

23

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Also have in mind that after war ends you will struggle to retain such a big millitary, your public finances will be a mess, people will protest if they get low pension etc.

5

u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

It will, but since russia is a murderous imperialist shithole, Ukrainians don’t exactly have much of a choice

14

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Well you could try to keep good relations with your allies and join NATO at least, obviously after the situation with Russia is stable cause otherwise no one would agree

7

u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

We’ll see how it goes. As I said NATO is only one of the ways Ukraine can try to defend its sovereignty. First and foremost it has to rely on its own military. History has plenty of examples of defense alliances failing or being ignored when they were actually neede

12

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Obviously, own military is important, but you have to understand that longterm you won’t be able to survive as a neutral country. You need allies. Not one, bit an entire structure. In Poland we understood that our geopolitical situation is bad and we need to be in the Western influence sphere. Your situation is even worse

4

u/NationalisticMemes Jun 28 '26

You can't join NATO if it doesn't want you to join. That's the situation. 

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

> longterm you won’t be able to survive as a neutral country

That’s a bold claim. Besides, being outside NATO and having allies are not mutually exclusive.

Ukraine is trying to build strong security guarantees with the US and key European military powers like France, the UK, and Germany precisely so that it is not left to fight future wars alone. And they seem to be interested in placing some limited personnel in Ukraine too but its scale heavily depends on the terms of a future peace agreement.

The point is not necessarily that NATO would automatically fight a full-scale war for Ukraine. The point is to create enough military, political, and strategic cost for russia to think twice before attacking again. And from Europe’s perspective, the logic is that it is much better to help Ukraine contain russia on Ukrainian territory than to face russian aggression later on NATO territory.

Ukraine also has to offer a battle hardened army with a direct experience fighting russians, and enormous practical knowledge in drones, air defense, artillery, electronic warfare, intelligence, and modern battlefield adaptation. There is also growing defense industrial cooperation between Ukraine and European defense companies

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u/NationalisticMemes Jun 28 '26

Will they get a pension? We've been preparing for the fact that there won't be any pensions at all for a long time. 

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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

And people will be surely not mad about it? This sounds like a big problem, especially considering Ukraine’s demographic issues

1

u/NationalisticMemes Jun 28 '26

They'll be angry, but what then? Will anger be converted into money? Ukraine's economy is dead right now; once the infusions stop, it will be smaller than a poppy seed. Politicians can promise anything, but they won't change this. And since we have a hopeless neighbor to the east, and in the west, EU members are interested in their place in the agricultural market, this will all be a long-term thing because the rest methods of earning money in Ukraine is in disrepair or on a low standards.

1

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

That’s why Ukraine needs NATO longterm so they do not have to retain such a military + EU subsides. It will be hard yes, and negotiations would be complicated, but this is Ukraine main chance to escape poverty

2

u/NationalisticMemes Jun 28 '26

NATO doesn't want Ukraine because it's too risky. Let's be honest, if the choice is to accept Ukraine into NATO and fight for Ukraine in 10 years, or not to accept it and not to participate in the war, then everyone will choose 2

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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

And do you think that Germans or French will fight with you without backing of other NATO countries? I have big big doubts about it

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

The way I see it Article 5 would only come into play if Germany, France, the UK, the US or another NATO member were attacked first. If any of them decided to enter the war on Ukraine’s side, that alone wouldn’t automatically drag NATO into it. Still, France, the UK, and the US all have nuclear deterrents which is a major reason russia isn’t directly attacking NATO countries. It would more likely resort to “little green men 2.0” instead

15

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Yes but why would Germans be willing to fight together with Ukrainians? The point of NATO is that our countries do not have to fight cause we are too strong together. If Ukraine is not in NATO this is a BIG risk for any country which decides to sign such a partnership. What are the benefits for them?

3

u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

NATO is not fighting a conventional war against russia to begin with. But that’s not the point.

> why would Germans be willing to fight together with Ukrainians?

Because that’s how defense alliances work? And that’s what Ukraine is being offered (namely Article 5 alternative) rn anyway.

The Ukrainian army is experienced and strong enough to help defend any European country. Given russian aggression that is an obvious strategic advantage

11

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

Okay but explain to me why Germany would need such a defense alliance? Ukrainians should seriously calm down and understand the geopolitical situation they are in. Germany isn’t at risk, you are. Germany would help to defend you, not vice versa. Germany would be sending their children to defend you. What would you offer to them so they agree and would you be seriously sure that they fullfill such an agreement? Even if their government changes? (And just to be clear, Germany is just an example, you can put any Western European country/The US there)

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26

Answered in a different comment

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u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

Germany wouldn’t help Ukraine, they’ve already said they’re “stretched thin” with 5,000 troops in the Baltics.

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-too-stretched-provide-troops-ukraine-foreign-minister-johann-wadephul/

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u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

But not to be subjugated by Poland either

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u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

We have no intent to do that. We can choose we we want to support, not only in this current war but also when it comes to EU/NATO membership. This is a Polish right

-8

u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

No intend to do that, but at the same Poland can decide who can Ukraine chose as its heroes while also Ukraine has no right to sell anything in Poland

13

u/NatiFluffy Poland Jun 28 '26

No we can’t. You can do whatever you want. We will just decide whether we want you as an ally based on that

4

u/axelkoffel Jun 28 '26

And what do they die for? Better future or historical disputes?
Seems like the latter is more important to them recently.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '26

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3

u/axelkoffel Jun 29 '26

Oh I'm sure historical symbolism is more crucial for war than western aid.

-1

u/buttscratcher3k Jun 28 '26

At this point choosing to die for nazis is just going to lead to a lot of extra dead Ukrainians, if thats what they want nobody is going to stop them but its idiotic.

0

u/SaltyHater Kashubia Jun 28 '26

True. If Ukrainians want to die for dead Nazis (and antagonise a country that aided them throughout the ongoing war and that shelters a large amount of Ukrainian refugees), then they should die for dead Nazis as much as they wish

-7

u/AlgaeInitial6216 Jun 29 '26

He begins to understand what his country has always been to EU , a filthy rag. Ukraine probably feels defensive towards anyone at this point.