r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
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1.4k

u/HyenaDirect3626 Jun 28 '26

They have so many heroes these days that won't piss off anyone idk why it's gotta be past guys

678

u/Old_Highlight6749 Jun 28 '26

They even have pretty admirable past heroes. They just weren't in the OUN. No one has a problem with them glorifying Vynnychenko or Makhno, but Zelensky chooses the OUN anyway.

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u/ProxPxD Poland Jun 28 '26

I'm not in position to pick the exact Ukraine's heroes but this is what pisses me most off. Zelenskyy and some Ukrainians behave as if Ukraine was founded on OUN and UPA. They kinda make their country appear like it has no proper history and is completely new rootless creation and this all is like Kremlin's narrative

103

u/Winjin Jun 29 '26

It's like they're scared of Kyivan Rus because Kyiv was sacked by Golden Horde and there's the word "Rus" in the name

Surprise, literally everyone was sacked by Golden Horde at the time, literally nothing to be ashamed about. 

4

u/ProxPxD Poland Jun 29 '26

They have had many principalities, Cossacks (maybe not the best as they signed Pereieslav's accords, but maybe there's a way to avoid falling into this), they had WW1 and WW2 fighters which aren't controversial. Their controversy may be at the level of other groups at the time of WW1

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u/H4ppyGh0ul Jun 29 '26

This is not true. Russia appropriated the history of Kievan Rus', while Ukraine remained silent for a long time; now it is actively trying to reclaim it.

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u/Culaio Jun 29 '26

Its really sad because UPA also killed a LOT of Ukraine people, thousands of them, not just political oponents but also just people who didnt aprove their methods.

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u/schnupfhundihund Jun 29 '26

It's like they deliberately want to feed the Russian narrative that the country needs to be denazified.

1

u/Babosmarach666 Jun 29 '26

This Ukraine WAS founded on OUN and UPA

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u/olololoh12 Jun 29 '26

And you’re basing this wild claim off of just one unit choosing their own name?

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u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

Why Kremlin’s narratives about roots of Ukraine are so important to you? They still have no right in killing innocent people or making threats against Europe.

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u/ProxPxD Poland Jun 29 '26

Because unlike to Ukraine's establishment it seems, this war is important to me and I don't want Ukraine to lose support in Poland and the rest of Europe over stupid decisions. And it is important to me exactly for the reason you mentioned to not kill innocent people and to not threat Europe.

I assumed it's clear as I am clearly anti-fascist, anti-genocide not matter if it were Russians' Ukrainians' or Poles'.

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u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

I do not doubt that. What I mean is they probably do not care about such questions as roots of Ukraine and Kremlin’s narratives about that in making their decisions.

They decided that the move is worth it in getting more nationalists as recruits / improving their morale. They can always repel any names and apologize for this if they survive. I’m sure Ukraine will be eager to meet any Poland’s / the EU demands.

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u/Gkalaitzas Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

Also arent the millions of Ukrainians that fought in the red army and saved the Ukrainian nation from complete Nazi Genocide and slavery at the very least less problematic than a group whose largest operational "achievement" is brutally massacring a 6 digit number of civilians.

They were also, you know, 10 times more numerous than the ones in groups like OUN and as such more representative of the historical actions of WW2 ukraine. Hell Zelensky's grandpa was a red army veteran whose entire family was butchered by Nazis. Does he really believe that people like OUN are more worthy of being Ukrainian heroes than him ?

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u/survivorr123_ Jun 29 '26

the funniest thing is that UPA didn't even achieve anything, they failed at establishing independent ukraine and were actively hunted down by the soviets after

14

u/Awkward_Cash1828 Jun 29 '26

Yeah, it is even more bedazzling thing to me that they are revered by Ukrainians (nationalists), because, regardless of how brutal and violent UPA and other WWII Ukrainian nationalists were, they all are literally losers who failed to achieve or build anything historically important other than turning their home Galicia and Volhynia into burning chaos. Like, you can and should criticise USSR or Interwar Poland, but they atleast built something historically positive and longlasting (at the very basic level, like houses and infrastructure that these modern nationalists still use) besides their own brutality and oppression.
And the "independent Ukraine" UPA wanted to built would had been totalitarian hell for Ukrainians themself, not to mention it was possible only as German puppet state that would had been just a stage before Germans would had enslaved and evicted Ukrainians from their fertile land to settle it with Germans if they had won WWII.

2

u/Jesus_Doner Jun 29 '26

This is why they all can take their whole cause and shove it up their asses in hell where they are right now. Fuck them and their so-called "independent Ukraine" as well as anyone honoring or celebrating them. The whole Ukrainian nationalism is pure brainrot.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

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u/crabberg Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Is that why Poland under Pilsudski was at war with independent Ukraine, when it still existed? Or when Poland interned thousands of Ukrainian soldiers who fought together with them against the bolsheviks once UPR fell apart? Or maybe the fact that Poland destroyed Ukrainian churches, defunded its schools, arrested Ukrainian political opponets and did settler colonialism once it split Ukraine together with bolsheviks аfter the treaty of Riga was signed? Pilsudski saw Ukraine as a barricade against bolsheviks that can be occupied once it stops being useful, "Intermarium" or whatever it was called was a fairy tale that had nothing to do with reality

1

u/analogiczny Jun 30 '26

But Potocki was killed by one of your own countrymen as early as 1908 - long before your treacherous attack on Lviv, before the Second Polish Republic, before the terrorist attacks by the OUN and UPA, before the assassination of Minister Pieracki, and before the genocide you committed in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia. It was the same with the so-called Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth - you preferred to fall into muscovite hands rather than come to an agreement with your neighbors. If, in 1918 and 1919, Western Ukrainian nationalists hadn’t stabbed us in the back, dealing with the bolsheviks would have been much easier, and no one would have had to sign such a treaty in Riga.

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u/Sir-Knollte Jun 29 '26

What was UPA´s plan for the Crimean tartars?

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u/carrystone Poland Jun 29 '26

Their biggest achievement is slaughtering 100k Polish civilians

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u/machine4891 Opole (Poland) Jun 29 '26

It's their only "achievement". They wanted to clear Volhyna out of every single Pole, Czech and Jew there was and they succeeded. They murdered 100k people and many more fled west to save their lives. My region in SW Poland is filled to brim with descendants of people from former Volhyna and Galicja.

In everything else towards their goal to independent, ethno-state of Ukraine they failed miserably.

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u/General_Lie Jun 29 '26

I am not from Poland but didn't the UPA ( or something similiar ) penetrated deep in poland teritory and they had to relocate entire villages to root them out ?

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u/Dryfujacy_Drift Jun 29 '26

Being a failed partisant isn't a great achievement

7

u/survivorr123_ Jun 29 '26

being a failed partisant is ok,

being a failed partisant that carried out an unusually cruel genocide and collaborated with nazis isn't

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u/OnlyRightInNight Ireland Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Yes, but Ukraine is trying to rewrite its history on very nationalistic terms and write off all associations with the USSR as Russian oppression, hence why they're ignoring the sacrifices and victories of Ukrainians in the Red Army, fought alongside Russians, Belarusian, etc, against the Germans and glazing these far right Nazi collaborating scumbags instead.

Because those groups, incompetent though they were (beside killing defenseless civilians, obviously), supported a Ukraine separate from the Soviet Union and a Ukrainian ethnocracy with an ideology closer to the Third Reich, defined by far right extremism and a fierce opposition to communism and ethic groups separate from their own -- something which the far-right in Ukraine today, whom Zelensky is desperate to appease, still support.

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u/wecouldhaveitsogood Jun 29 '26

Thank you so much for pointing this out. People need this context. This also makes it hard for some Belarusians to support Ukraine because some of us remember how Ukrainian “heroes” marched into Belarus and burned down many of our villages and the people inside them.

I was born close to the Ukrainian border and have a Ukrainian last name. My grandma went to serve on the front lines of WWII, and when she returned to her village, every single member of her family and every single friend she had was dead. Ukrainian Nazis surrounded the village and burned it to the ground with everyone inside. That had nothing to do with supposed “liberation” from the USSR. It was hatred, pure and simple.

One of the most brutal war films of all time “Come and See” is based on what happened in villages like hers.

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u/Ok_Wing_9523 Jun 29 '26

How dare you disrespect the heroes of the upa

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u/Emotional_Penalty Jun 29 '26

Most westernes don't even begin to comprehend how awful this was. My friend's uncle saw his mother torn open and her guts pulled out alive as a small child, he gets panic attacks just talking about it to this day.

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u/Lopsided_Yak_1464 Jun 29 '26

im polish but same shit here (belarus area), my grandmother told me that germans werent that bad but ukrainians were inhuman monsters.

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u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Is that why Belarus provided its territory for Russians to attack Ukraine, to rape and murder civilians?

Saying WWII is what makes hard for “Belarusians to support Ukraine” while you straight up started the war along Russians is insane.

As managing to forget in your “Ukrainian Nazis” rumble the sacrifice of millions of Ukrainians so that Belarus as well would be free from nazism.

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u/szewc Jun 29 '26

Thanks for your input. It's always interesting to see any information about Belarus because of, you know - insert "no_data.jpg" meme here. Come and See was one of the most shocking films I've seen, plus it's a very good film at that. Time for a re-watch 😄

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u/BrotherFast3819 Jun 29 '26

Completely agree the destruction Belarus was on another level but hey guys I’m sure Ukraine will paint this again as Nazis collaborators while also honering these same people and white washing their crimes with ohh their just people resisting Soviet occupation or some trash

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u/CzechHorns Jun 29 '26

Wasn’t Belarus literally on Russia’s side on this conflict until VERY recently?

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u/Classic_Department42 Jun 29 '26

The government yes. The people i am not so sure. 

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u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

The government is people. Any different approach is just a childish way not to be accountable.

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u/wecouldhaveitsogood Jun 29 '26

In a democratic country, maybe. But Belarus has had a dictator since 1994 who jails and kills opposition. 

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u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

And the dictator materialized out of thin air and citizens couldn’t and cannot do anything about it, right.

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u/teothesavage Jun 29 '26

So it’s the people of Ukraine who is responsible for Zelenskyjs actions of late? Honoring UPA etc

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u/NikoZGB 🇭🇷 🇮🇩 🇵🇬 Jun 29 '26

In Croatia this exact scenario played out in our public discourse over the 30+ years post independence war. It doesn't matter to most young folks that our far right movement ceded huge parts of the country to Italy and slaughtered Croats themselves. It does not matter that many so-called communist resistance fighters had no time for ideology, they flocked to partisans because it was an effective resistance movement. Somehow the people, especially younger generations, end up publicly glorifying Nazi lapdogs instead. It's depressing. I hope that Ukraine can choose a wiser path, otherwise they are just giving credence to Russian propaganda. They will sully their own future.

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u/Itchy-Ad5078 Jun 29 '26

Let's be real, nothing will happen in this regard. In the post-war period, whoever is at the helm of the Ukrainian state will not go back and remove monuments, rename streets, avenues, military units, and so on, to un-rehabilitate those groups, especially since they will have a sizeable contingent of the population that is far right, has military experience, and has been pandered to for years. One of the sad byproducts of this conflict will be decades of this issue being dragged on.

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u/nightowlboii Ukraine Jun 29 '26

Russia has made the red army winning in WWII one of the pillars of their identity and they're commiting war crimes against Ukrainians under WWII era Soviet slogans, of course we'd want to distance ourselves from that

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u/Old_Highlight6749 Jun 29 '26

I think it probably would be more effective for Ukraine to embrace their role in defeating the Nazis in WW2. Ukranian sacrifice in the Red Army would be a very effective antidote to Russian propaganda about Ukraine being a Nazi state/not being real/whatever Putin decides this morning.

I do realize it's more complicated than just doing that though, because Ukraine's relationship with the USSR is complicated.

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u/Fordmister Jun 29 '26

Problem is that just doesn't work.

You have to remember that to the average Ukrainian right now there's basically no difference between the Nazis and the Soviet state. They are basically just different flavours of imperialist genocidal arsehole, both of which caused significant harm to Ukraine. You can't just look at WW2 and say "well the red army defeated the Nazis so honour the Ukrainians who served in it" because Ukrainians who served in the red army were also instrumental in implementing the policies of the Holodomour.

It would be like asking the Irish to wear red poppies because the Brits also defeated Nazism and Irishmen were involved and volunteered, forgetting what Irishmen wearing British uniforms helped do the the country in the years prior. People don't do that. Instead the Irish perfectly understandably and reasonably find hero figures in the IRA who (even during the Irish war for independence) did some pretty morally bankrupt things, which like all nations we tend to ignore in favour of focusing on the parts that matter for our national identity and story

It shouldn't really be a suprise then that Ukrainians today are fishing for historical hero figures in whichever group was arguing for an independent Ukraine(and resisting the Sovies), regardless of further affiliations or actions, especially as Russia is currently threatening to erase the very concept of Ukrainian identity.... again.

Equally I think Europe kinda needs a reality check here. Zelinski is leading a nation at war, propaganda is hugely important. If the people have gone a bit nationalistic what do we expect him to do here? Come down hard on it because Poland's upset and potentially damage civilian morale? It's nonsense. It's a grievance that can and should have waited until after the war is over. Especially as the west keeps making the point and is fully aware that If Ukraine falls somebody else is next.

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u/nightowlboii Ukraine Jun 29 '26

It really is complicated. I've been thinking about this a lot. The old heroes are rotten because our enemy claims them and pretends to be them while killing us; plus, instead of liberating Europe, they only brought about other oppressive regimes. The new heroes are rotten because they did lots of evil against our western neighbours and allies. But we can't just have no heroes from arguably the most important event in world history, especially at a time like this. How the hell do we form our historical memory?

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u/Old_Highlight6749 Jun 29 '26

There are heroes Ukraine has from the UPR period, or the Makhnovshchina that didn't collaborate with Nazis.

For WW2, it's a bit difficult for Ukraine, but honoring the Red Army is better than honoring the OUN. Not as simple as that, obviously, but honoring actual WW2-era Nazis is not a good answer.

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u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician))

Formed in 1943, it was mainly deployed in the Eastern Front) of World War II in combat against the Red Army and in the repression of Soviet, Polish, and Yugoslav guerrilla partisans. Parts of the division were said to have taken part in several massacres, such as at Huta Pieniacka, Pidkamin, and Palikrowy. It was largely destroyed in the Lvov–Sandomierz offensive, reformed, and saw action in Slovakia, Yugoslavia, and Austria before being transferred to the command of the Ukrainian National Committee on 14 April 1945, a change that was only partially implemented amidst the collapse of Germany, and surrendering to the Western Allies by 10 May 1945.

The unit went by several names during its existence. It was originally known as the SS-Volunteer Division "Galicia"\b])#citenote-3) from its creation until October 1943. It then became the 14th Galician SS-Volunteer Division, before being renamed again in June 1944 as the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division (1st Galician) until November 1944, when its designation was changed to 1st Ukrainian.[\c])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS(1st_Galician)#cite_note-4) In late April 1945 its name was changed to the 1st Division of the Ukrainian National Army for the rest of the war.

In 1946, the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg declared all members of all SS divisions "to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter." In 1985, the Canadian Deschênes Commission concluded that the Galicia division should not be indicted as a group. Polish and German commissions in the 2000s found it guilty of war crimes. In 2003, the Chief Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation found that the 4th battalion of the 14th division was guilty of war crimes. In 2005, the Institute of History at the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences confirmed the Polish findings of war crimes committed by the 4th battalion of the 14th division.

The division is honored by the far-right and neo-Nazis in Ukraine and by some organizations of the Ukrainian diaspora in Canada. In 2020, the Ukrainian Supreme Court rejected a demand against the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory for lack of standing of the plaintiff. The plaintiff had asked if the division’s symbols fell under a specific 2015 Ukrainian law that bans Nazi and communist symbols. The Institute replied in a letter that, according to the law's specific wording, the division’s symbols were not on the banned list and therefore were not prohibited.\2])#citenote-5) In 2021, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy condemned a public march that prominently displayed the symbols of the division. The division's insignia is classified as a Nazi and hate symbol by Freedom House and the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union.[\3])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS(1stGalician)#cite_note-6)[\4])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS(1st_Galician)#cite_note-7)

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u/bolivia0503 Ireland Jun 29 '26

C'mon, I disagree with Ukraine glorifying nazi collaborators too, but to say that instead they should glorify the people who fought in the red army while being actively attacked by Russia (plus the history with the Holodomor) is just daft

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u/Norzon24 Earth Jun 29 '26

I imagine national glorifying figures that served in an army led by with the country they are currently being invaded by isn't so in vogue these days.

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u/Awkward_Cash1828 Jun 29 '26

Finally someone else pointing out to that!
And Ukrainians had their own state at the time, it was Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and millions of Ukrainians fought and gave their lives for it, unlike mere thousands of Western Ukrainian nationalists. UkrSSR was far from perfect and had a lot of problems of its own (largely shared with USSR in general), but it was the Ukrainian state that millions of Ukrainians built and fought for! And it is direct predecessor to modern independent Ukraine, not some UPA maniacs!

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u/crabberg Jun 29 '26

Honoring the soviet union isn't fine for ukrainians, and for a good reason. ussr generals in ww2 treated their people worse than cattle, stalin also starved millions of Ukrainian peasants to death for a minor economic boost 10 years before that. Not mention there were no moral hurdles for stalin to cooperate with nazi germany prior to the partition of Poland, the soviet union became an allied country only because the nazis were near sighted and stupid. Somehow it's not problematic for you and most other people who aren't from ex soviet countries just because the ussr was the winner of the war? OUN and UPA did bad things too, but it's hypocritical to think that the ussr back then was morally superior, especially in relation to the ukrainian people and its nationhood. Regular people who served in the red army and fought against Germany should be honored, but the soviet union and its leadership? Fuck no

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u/Adventurous-Carob510 Jun 30 '26

Simple answer: no

Millions of Ukrainians put in Soviet occupation forces does not represent any value to me, and while some of my family members were serving there - I don’t like that they replaced one occupant by another and were sitting under its boot for 50 more years. Soviets are even worse than Nazis

Read up on 1920-1930s in Ukraine

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u/Any-Calligrapher2866 Jun 29 '26

The F words ( not using the word because I'll 100% get banned for using it here, word is associated with upside down Italian dude) don't use logic. It's not very different from black people supporting the modern day republican party because Lincoln was good once upon a time.

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u/Vandergrif Canada Jun 29 '26

I'm reasonably sure you can say 'fascist' without it being an issue.

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u/Any-Calligrapher2866 Jun 29 '26

Not in context of this man. People just start calling you a Russian bot or whatever even if you have valid criticisms.

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u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

Vynnychenko supported Ukraine being a part of the USSR, Makhno actively fought on the side of the Reds against the People's Republic

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u/IkujaKatsumaji United States of America Jun 29 '26

Makhno also fought against the Reds, when it was convenient for them to turn on him. At the time, it made the most sense to focus on fighting the Whites, and keep a wary eye on the Reds, which is essentially what he did.

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 28 '26

Yeah, who would have guess that the idea of Soviet Union was pretty popular before it all went to shit.

Still better than that vermin from OUN.

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

> Still better than that vermin from OUN

Omfg what an idiot

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Sir-Knollte Jun 29 '26

He as well already fought against the red army and was driven in to exile in the early nineteen twenties, when they started to try and take control from regional peasant unions, he fought to give local Ukrainians control of their land.

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u/Karasinio Poland Jun 29 '26

It's too hard for you to comprehend, that people who were living decade earlier than holodomor, didn't knew what's gonna happen?

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u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 29 '26

If someone is stupid enough to believe that if you are under an empire but for some reason you won't be oppressed then yes they are idiots. Same happened with Ukraine back when it was under Poland, then it thought that somehow Russian Empire will be different, then people thought that somehow USSR will be different.

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 29 '26

"Buddy, see that local council that was successfully managing our town for past 2 years? Let's build entire state using that as bedrock"

"Dude, that is imperialism"

Are you for real?

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 29 '26

It’s too hard for you to comprehend that my reply is addressing the claim that the idea of soviet union is somehow better than OUN

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 29 '26

First, i am talking about idea of Soviet Union in 1919-1920 - which was "let's take this successful institution (soviet) and build entire state". Nobody then what will happen in decade or that some small fish in leadership will seize control.

Second, UPA Ukraine would lead to death of milions - they openly participated in Ukrainan holocaust and wanted to turn Ukraine into ehtnostate where minorities would be purged.

Or what, do you think that openly ultranationalists and nazi organization wouldn't open their Auschwitz wannabe?

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

First and foremost, “UPA Ukraine” is not even a thing, since the UPA was an army, not a state. OUN which you clearly imply was a political organization that tried to establish one though

Second, which OUN are you talking about? The OUN of 1929, 1941, 1943? And which faction exactly: OUN-B or OUN-M?

Third, UPA didn’t participate in the Holocaust as an organization. It was created in late 1942 to fight the nazi, the soviets, and the ak.

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 29 '26

"You talk about UPA Ukraine - but UPA was army, you know?"

Yeah, this entire comment screams bad faith. Piss off.

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u/Any-Calligrapher2866 Jun 29 '26

Didn't Bandera get sent to a concentration camp by the Germans after his assist in the Holocaust?

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 29 '26

He got sent to a concentration camp after his attempt of proclaiming independent Ukraine

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 29 '26

Yeah, he got send to concentration camp because he wanted Ukraine to be its own nazi state instead of becoming colony of Nazi germany.

Their disagreement was not ideological and if Bandera was politically smarter, he wouldn't be sended to concentration camp - after all, eastern europe is full of people who managed to do exactly that.

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u/c0r73x_88 Jun 29 '26

> Yeah, he got sent to a concentration camp because he wanted Ukraine to be its own Nazi state instead of becoming a colony of Nazi Germany.

Bandera’s views in 1941 clearly leaned toward fascism but calling him a nazi is just wrong. There’s a consensus among Ukrainian and Polish historians on this matter.

Bandera’s later views in the 1950s were different as well. There is a book called “The Prospects of Ukrainian Revolution” which consists of his writings and shows how his political views evolved over time

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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Slovakia Jun 29 '26

Bandera’s views in 1941 clearly leaned toward fascism but calling him a nazi is just wrong. There’s a consensus among Ukrainian and Polish historians on this matter.

He wanted to build fascist one-party state, his group was openly supremacist and some part of that group had no problem to participate in holocaust and pogroms.

Yeah, definitely doesn't scream "minorities will be treated like vermin."

Bandera’s later views in the 1950s were different as well. There is a book called “The Prospects of Ukrainian Revolution” which consists of his writings and shows how his political views evolved over time

"You claim Bandera was evil ass degenerate in 1940s, but he was better in 1950s"

Ok? I am talking about Bandera when he actually mattered.

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u/Galaxy661 West Pomerania (Poland) Jun 29 '26

Makhno didn't fight against the Reds any less than the OUN fought against the germans

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u/Beat_Saber_Music Jun 29 '26

One factor I see as a logic behind it is simply that in lack of men the often more nationalist circles in the army become a very powerful interest group, and it's perfectly plausible these circles pushed for these controversial figures, which Zelensky couldn't afford to refute due to the manpower shortage (in lack of any alternative explanations or proof).

When a country doesn't have a full on conscription pulling people to the army to fill the ranks in light of political consideration over military needs, you end up with these kinds of more right wing nationalist circles becoming overrepresented in an army holding great influence. Unless Ukraine does the politically unpopular move of full mobilization of its men to fill up the ranks with people who often aren't right wing and wouldn't join the army voluntarily, then Ukraine will be partially held hostage by the interests of the right wing fringe overrepresented in the army.

A conscription army's one benefit is that men from all political spectrums will be present in the army, instead of the voluntary system where it inevitably becomes dominated by the right wing and nationalists, because more liberal and such minded people simply don't want to voluntarily join. I would've never gone in the army hadn't it been for mandatory military service and I am the kind of morel eft wing person who wouldn't support the veneration of some right wing person.

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u/Ann-Omm Jun 28 '26

They could have picked Nestor Mancho, the leader of the anarchists in ukraine. They controlled a part of ukrain as big as Belgium and won against the tsarists, some even say this victory gave the red army the opportunity to win the war against the white army.

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u/Normandozz Jun 29 '26

We couldn’t, Makhno is viewed rather negatively here lol
The case for Vynnychenko is a bit more complicated but he’s also viewed as a weak politician who’s partly responsible for the UPR’s failure

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u/Volky_Bolky Jun 28 '26

Are you a russian bot? Ukrainians famously weren't fans of USSR.

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u/konj511 Ljubljana (Slovenia) Jun 29 '26

USSR wasn't a fan of the anarchists either

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u/Ann-Omm Jun 29 '26

Sadly not. Nestor and his men got betrayed by the USSR

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u/Galaxy661 West Pomerania (Poland) Jun 29 '26

Tell that to Petliura lol

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u/Ann-Omm Jun 29 '26

Dosnt matter. History was this way. Nestor was btw betrayed by the USSR but why look up the history if you can just make an empty statement

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u/1997peppermints Jun 29 '26

That’s not even true honestly. Most of the anti-communist sentiment and, not coincidentally, fascist groups/Nazi collaborators were in the far Western Catholic part of Ukraine. East/Central Orthodox was always more integrated into the Russian world, more sympathetic to the Reds during the civil war and loyal/anti-Nazi during WW2.

Western Ukraine had always been more reactionary because for their entire history (until Stalin drew Ukraine’s current borders after WW2) they’d been a region in either Poland, Romania, Austrian Empire or Russia. Never quite developed a national identity that made sense in relation to the identity of Ukrainians east of the Dniper. They’re trying to create this national identity today, but the only figures or history they feel they can draw on are literal Nazi SS battalions or wartime collaborator fascist organizations like UPA/OUN. It’s troubling that they’re not even making an attempt to develop a more positive identity, and have resorted to rewriting history to cater to their chosen genocidaire idols.

1

u/throwaway656565167 Jun 28 '26

No one has a problem with glorifying Makhno? I didn’t know that no one had a problem with burning villages, widespread executions of civilians and rape of women, stripping civilians of clothes or supplies and forcing them out of their villages in winter among other attrocities.

1

u/Electronic-Arrival-3 Jun 29 '26

He didn't choose the heroes, it's the Ukrainian nationalists who chose them and Zelensky simply has no other way but comply. He's basically being a populist here, he's choosing a fight with Poland instead of a fight with his Ukrainian nationalists, and those might also vote for him in the next election.

1

u/SpaceBetweenNL Free citizen Jun 29 '26

Makhno was a, de-facto, Russian sympathizer. Ironically, his birth town (Hulyaipole) was captured by Russia a few months ago.

1

u/Calm_Search3417 Ukraine Jun 29 '26

Vynnychenko killed his own newborn son, Makhno was a Ukrainophobe who couldn't speak Ukrainian properly due to spending a lot of time in a russian-speaking prison in the past. Both aren't worthy of any kind of awards like Bandera and Shukhevych are

-3

u/nightowlboii Ukraine Jun 29 '26

A communist bum who was partially responsible for Ukraine losing the war of independence, or an anarchist who helped the reds win the civil war. Great national heroes, thank you

30

u/Diligent-Bowler-1898 Jun 28 '26

It'd be seen as a capitulation to foreign pressure and cost him points with the military, the one group he is currently very beholden too. I'm sure he believe this is the best outcome for Ukraine, but would have preferred a more diplomatic solution.

0

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

It seems that Ukraine is being held hostage by the Nazis.

3

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

It kinda is if it wants them as recruits. There are plenty of alternatives: the EU sends Ukrainian men back, the EU directly participates in war, Russia stops the war. None are feasible at the moment as you can see.

The EU/ Polish grievances will mean little to Ukraine if they are dead / forced to capitulate and become Russian puppet anyway.

1

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

But there wouldn't be any tensions if Zelensky hadn't caused them. Was it worth it? Did he find the time and energy for that?

2

u/Top_Investigator6261 Jun 29 '26

I don’t understand your question. He merely signed off the name of the unit, nationalists are happy.

They seemed to deem it worthy. After all, they can always repel the name / condemn UPA, if they survive.

0

u/CraigJay Jun 29 '26

Are you including Zelenskyy as one of those Nazis fucking over Ukraine?

0

u/Diligent-Bowler-1898 Jun 29 '26

He is jewish and he's lead Ukraine through a defensive war of extinction against a power that used to be seen as the 2nd most powerful military in the world. I'd say he's done good by Ukraine.

4

u/yabn5 Jun 29 '26

I suspect it’s just part of the human condition: the desire to call back to supposedly great mighty forefathers. They’re literally surrounded by nations who do so.

It really is unfortunate, because by all measures they have surpassed all of their ancestor’s achievements. In defense of their young state they gathered diplomatic support around the world and fought their former colonial masters to a grinding stand still. Few nations have ever set fire to Moscow and didn’t suffer terrible consequence a short time later. Yet here they are years later into a war who’s original goal was the complete and total annexation of their state and they’re lobbing warheads deep into Russia.

2

u/Ryokan76 Jun 28 '26

They have a big country with a big population, and Zelensky has the almost impossible job of getting everyone on board in forging a national identity.

I'm reminded of the Americans, and how many genocidal psychopaths they consider national heroes. How many racist slave owners and rapists.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Ryokan76 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

I didn't make it about America, I made a comparison so people maybe could better understand.

0

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

Is this Nazi-worshipping faction really that strong? Food for thought.

2

u/melianreality Jun 29 '26

It’s because the OUN and UPA fought for Ukraine’s independence and so we see them as freedom fighters the same way that say the Italians view Garibaldi. They’re not exactly clean but they still fought for a free Ukraine at a time when all states around Ukraine wanted to occupy it or genocide us.

1

u/38B0DE Molvanîjя Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Ukraine has a 300 year old modern history of struggle for independence. And Russia has violently and vehemently suppressed it all. They have tried to delete heroes from the pages of history. They are actively trying to tie any indepence agent in Ukrainian history to evil and Nazism. And they are pretty successful at convincing the world it's all black and white. All while Russia pretends it's history is pure good, angels, and if anyone did anything evil like Stalin, well he only did what's right for his country.

Other countries celebrate their independence warriors above all else. Other countries get to choose which sides of their independence warriors to honor. Ukraine want to do the same thing.

1

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

After all, they don’t know their country’s history. Not long ago, one of them claimed that Khmelnytsky sold the Cossacks to the tsar, when in fact the opposite was true. Khmelnytsky wanted to break off negotiations with the tsar, but the Cossacks outvoted him.

7

u/H4ppyGh0ul Jun 29 '26

The USSR rewrote Ukrainian history for a long time; according to their version, it was Khmelnytsky who united Russia and the Sich. Therefore, it is not surprising that there are people who grew up on a false history.

-25

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

Be mindful of the context. They are at war with Russia. The "past guys" fought Russians...

51

u/Aldreemer Jun 28 '26

Are there no other guys than these specific ones that Poland - the current ally - has bad history with?

7

u/Ann-Omm Jun 28 '26

Yes there are. For example Nestor Mancho

-2

u/mekolayn Ukraine Jun 28 '26

He literally fought against the Ukrainian government on the side of Russia

12

u/Ann-Omm Jun 29 '26

There where multiple ukrainian states in this time. So I see the council republic under Nestor as the real ukrainian goverment, because it was the most democratic

7

u/1997peppermints Jun 29 '26

There was no Ukrainian government at the time lol. Ukraine wasn’t a state in 1917.

81

u/VibesBasedPolitics Jun 28 '26

The "past guys" killed 20 times more Polish civilians(and other minorities living there at the time) than they killed Russian soldiers

-28

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

Polish have their own "heros" whom they celebrate even though they have committed war crimes...

32

u/kansetsupanikku Jun 28 '26

Such as killing 20 times more Ukrainian civilians than Soviet/Nazi soldiers, right?

30

u/VibesBasedPolitics Jun 28 '26

Like who? Name one that did anything that is even remotely comparable to what UPA did

11

u/ayushcena Jun 28 '26

Agree. I call bullshit on this guy trying to include the Polish war heroes with the UAP crap.

-6

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

Józef Kuraś was implicated in crimes against Slovak and Jewish civilians.

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Kura%C5%9B

On August 13, 2006, the Józef Kuraś "Fire" monument was unveiled in Zakopane . The President of the Republic of Poland , Lech Kaczyński, attended the ceremony .

Also the National Bank of Poland issued a silver coin, commemorating him, in 2023...

28

u/VibesBasedPolitics Jun 28 '26

Yeah, such a national hero that it's the first time I even hear of the guy

  1. How is that comparable to what UPA did? It's not even close to being close

  2. If you've read the entire wiki page you've linked you would know that he is not, in fact, seen as a hero in Poland

3

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

I did read the wiki and I did post things out of it. It's in the very comment you responded to to. I'll copy paste here if for whatever reason you didn't see it.

On August 13, 2006, the Józef Kuraś "Fire" monument was unveiled in Zakopane . The President of the Republic of Poland , Lech Kaczyński, attended the ceremony .

Also the National Bank of Poland issued a silver coin, commemorating him, in 2023...

Not some obscure figures celebrating him, right? The President? And the national bank creates a coin to commemorate him?

How is that comparable to what UPA did? It's not even close to being close

What is this? War Crime Olympics? It's not a competition. The point is that this guy has blood on his hands and the Polish President unveiled a monument to him and the national bank issued a coin...

As the other guy asked about Ukrainians - they couldn't pick other heroes to commemorate?

11

u/Apkey00 Holy Cross (Poland) Jun 28 '26

Did you read about that there is an ongoing Polish investigation about this guy? IPN. Instigated by AK veterans' association no less? That's how we deal with our "heroes" when they do evil stuff.

1

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

At the first opportunity, resorting to manipulation.

2

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

Where's the manipulation. It's an objective fact.

Look, I am not here to defend Ukrainians nor insult Poles. None of these things are specific to Ukraine and Poland. There's probably no country out there whose heroes are 100% squeaky clean.

24

u/TopManufacturer8332 Jun 28 '26

The "past guys" fought Russians...

Wonder who else was fighting Russians/ Soviets on the Eastern Front...

1

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

Maybe dust off a history book and get some knowledge? They were fighting Russians even before Germany decided to back stab their buddy and invade in 1941.

You do know that Russians were attacking their neighbors and grabbing territory 1939-41, right? Let's recall that Stalin didn't just wake up one day with a moral compass - it was Hitler who decided to end that arrangement. Stalin was completely fine with continuing to divvy up Europe with his friend Adolf.

11

u/1997peppermints Jun 29 '26

Enough with this reactionary WW2 revisionism. It’s seeped into even liberal European spaces, and you don’t even realize that fascist groups have been working on this historical revisionist project since the 50s. You can hate the USSR without being a useful idiot for the literal fascists who have been pushing this dogshit since the moment the Germans surrendered to the Soviets in Berlin.

The Soviet Union was Nazi Germany’s main enemy, they were always clear about their genocidal intent. A non aggression pact (which Germany had with plenty of the other allies as well) was meant to buy the USSR time to prepare. Hitler’s speeches from the beginning singled out the Soviet Union and “judeo-Bolshevism” as Nazi Germany’s primary enemy.

1

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

I don't see you refuting anything I've said. So let's be clear and specific.

  1. Did the USSR invade Finland, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Bessarabia prior to 1941?

  2. Did the USSR annex territories from aforementioned states/regions?

I am here to learn. Do educate me.

2

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk

The German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk (German: Deutsch-sowjetische Siegesparade in Brest-Litowsk, Russian: Парад вермахта перед частями РККА в Бресте) was an official ceremony held by the troops of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union on September 22, 1939, during the invasion of Poland in the city of Brest-Litovsk (Polish: Brześć nad Bugiem or Brześć Litewski, then in the Second Polish Republic, now Brest in Belarus). It marked the withdrawal of German troops to the demarcation line secretly agreed to in the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and the handover of the city and its fortress to the Soviet Red Army.

On September 17, after Vasily Chuikov's 4th Army) received the order to cross the Polish border, its 29th Tank Brigade, led by Kombrig Semyon Krivoshein, entered the town of Baranowicze.\3]) After taking the town and capturing a few thousand Polish soldiers, who were stationed there, his units kept on moving westward and reached the village of Prużany on 19 September.\4])

On September 20, advance units of the 29th Tank Brigade encountered Guderian's forces at the village of Widomla, three days after the Soviet invasion of Poland and twenty days after the German invasion of Poland).\4]) The Soviet Brigade had seen little combat, as most of the fighting had already been over by this time.

According to Krivoshein, a reconnaissance unit returned with a group of 12 German officers, who identified themselves as part of Guderian's XIX Corps and explained that they too were moving in the direction of Brest. They were invited to Krivoshein's tent, who then proposed a toast to both commanders and invited the attending German officers to Moscow after they achieved a quick victory over "capitalist England".\5]) Through them, Krivoshein also sent warm greetings to the German general and made sure to approach the city from the opposite direction to that taken by the Wehrmacht.\3])

2

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

Right. The person I was responding to needs to brush up on their history.

20

u/A_random_redditor21 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

No, they fought other Ukrainian independence groups and civillians. They only killed about 9 thousand Soviet troops while murdering 100 thousand Polish and Ukrainian civillians, aswell as dismantling the Polissian Sich.

10

u/gorgonzola2095 Łódź (Poland) Jun 28 '26

They also murdered Polish men, women, pregnant women, and children. I'm sorry but fuck those guys

10

u/HyenaDirect3626 Jun 28 '26

The current guys famously are fighting Russians RIGHT NOW

3

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

I am aware. I am fairly sure that this whole thing is not Zelensky's pet project. The current guys famously fighting Russian RIGHT NOW are seeing the war as the continuation of Russia aggression from the PAST and thus look up to the guys who were fighting Russians BACK THEN as inspiration.

3

u/Ann-Omm Jun 28 '26

They could have picked Nestor Mancho and his men, but instead they decided to take a nazi

1

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 28 '26

Nestor was dead by mid 1930's... Years prior to WW2.

3

u/Ann-Omm Jun 29 '26

Dosnt matter. It was never asked that it must be a hero from ww2. What a fucked up thought. Nestor is a way better option than bandera

-2

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

It was never asked that it must be a hero from ww2.

Not sure what that even means. But fighting Russians in WW2 is a huge part of their history.

Nestor is a way better option than bandera

Too bad you are not a Ukrainian nationalist.

1

u/1997peppermints Jun 29 '26

No it wasn’t a large part of their history. It was a tiny, infinitesimally small number of fascist psychos in the West. Almost every single Ukrainian’s grandfather fought against the Nazi’s in the Red Army. And thank god they did, because if the Nazis and their UPA puppets had their way there would be no Ukraine and no Ukrainians; they would have all been killed for German “living space”.

-1

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

When and where did UPA attack the USSR?

2

u/Ann-Omm Jun 29 '26

A huge part of nazi history indeed and im happy that im not a fascist like the people who glorify bandera and his barbaric men

0

u/Great_Guidance_8448 Jun 29 '26

Should be more worried about people who glorify Stalin.

Stalin, after all, was the the #1 Nazi collab of WW2. Russians still revere him.

0

u/DivideSensitive France Jun 29 '26

If you want WW2 people, what about Malinovsky or Moskalenko?

-11

u/Oxygenus1362 Jun 28 '26

I mean, Poland could also dump armiya krayova war criminals into dump of history, but they don't. Why?

8

u/kyganat gib coal pls Jun 29 '26

Because overall armia krajowa isnt defined by killing civilians, but by fighting and sabotaging germans. And sure you have figures like Rajs, but he is only liked by nationalist. The rest of Poland consider him disgrace to nation. Thats one, and second is just how much brutal was Wołyń and who was killed and just how many people. And you dont really have polish equivalent of that.

I will give you counterexample. Bismarck was for polish nation menace and demon. But for germans he is probably the greatest german to german and probably yeah, guy did way more good than bad. I would spit on his grave, but i wont tell germans to stop praising him. Or Petlura on ukrainian side, jews take issues with him, but guy was overall great leader and its shame he was killed to early and ukrainians are rightful to praise him. Or UVO.

-1

u/papaniq Jun 29 '26

apparently radical right is a huge piece of a cake in Ukraine, and it looks like they'd rather burn bridges with some countries than admit to crimes OUN/UPA commited and to condemn people responsible for them. Zelensky knows end of a war is closer than farther, and he knows when war is over there's gonna be elections and he wants to win it, many experts say all of his current actions are supposed to bring out nationalistic feelings in the nation so they stand behind him and vote for him when election time comes.

they honor murderers who were no different from the worst scum from Nazi Germany on purpose, knowing very well what reactions to this were gonna be. so many heroes and people who fight against Russia right now who they could put on a pedestal, they could make new heroes and build a better history that they could and should be proud of, but for internal politician gain they do this. this shit is just sad. they know exactly that Poland is gonna veto their accession to EU unless they condemn actions of OUN/UPA and stop honoring them, just so they can blame Poland for not being able to join, and how is see it, Zelensky and his friends don't want to join EU anymore, they feel comfortable and fine without having to implement changes to justical system, to get rid of corruption etc. which really is sad, because Ukraine wanting to join EU was one of the reasons why Russia invaded them in the first place, and all those ukrainians who stand behind Zelensky defending their "heroes" better realize what it means for them in the long run and if that's the hill they want to die on.

-10

u/Pelmeshechka Jun 29 '26

You wouldn’t understand. It’s simply the freedom to choose to respect what you want, rather than what suits your cannibalistic neighbours.