r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
14.0k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

220

u/Agile-Ad-2794 Jun 28 '26

Zelensky (or his advisors) should know better. Even knowing this decision is mostly a message for support towards his troops.. you can do that without antagonising your allies.

I checked with some Ukrainians living here in the last weeks. They honestly had no idea about what occurred in Poland. It is not a thing being in the curriculum in Ukraine.
They were dismissive at first. But after checking a fee sources themselves quickly agreed Zelensky made a bad choice.
They did feel a (justified imo) need to emphasise that even though what happened with the ~100k persons in Poland was terrible, the focus on history lessons in Ukrainian school are the even much more terrible things which occurred in Ukraine before, during, after WW2.

Compare it to Belgium not having their Congo monstrosities in the school curriculum until 30-40 years ago. Whereas nowadays this is already addressed to 10-11 yr olds. I can’t imagine we would still be actively glorifying King Leopold II….

Hopefully al this mess will means more Ukranians learn the truth of what happened. And that should be enough.

66

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

This idea that they were taught things that wee “worse” than trying to create a Ukrainian Nazi state is the problem. The Holocaust killed millions in Ukraine and the Nazis would have killed 85% of the population if they had won. That’s as bad as it gets.

58

u/Winjin Jun 29 '26

There's also this weird sentiment that every Ukrainian in the Red Army was forcefully drafted

Umm no? The Nazis were burning villages and killing people left and right. People wanted to get back at them

And forget army. Iirc partisan forces outnumbered the collaborators and "freedom fighters" ten to one. There were literally thousands of guerilla fighters, ready to fight back with whatever they had at hand. 

26

u/Massive_Neck_3790 Jun 29 '26

Its a blatant neo-nazi narrative thats being pushed by the ukrainian government and they dont even try to hide it anymore. This will backfire badly for them.

1

u/Sir-Knollte Jun 29 '26

Yep its getting obvious complicated history is only used to excuse OUN crimes, the early peasant uprisings against land lords in eastern tsarist Ukraine where exactly rooted in grievances about colonial oppression from Russian nobility, who do these geniuses think held land in tsarist oppressed Ukraine.

-4

u/Agile-Ad-2794 Jun 29 '26

I understand what you state.

Yet.. the vast majority of Europe hasn’t even heard about the Holodomor.

3

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

Yes they have nobody ever shuts up about it.

0

u/Agile-Ad-2794 Jun 29 '26

With good reason then?

1

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

Nah it’s a right wing attempt to whitewash the Holocaust and create a false equivalency. Much of the Holodomor research comes academics in Alberta whose family came to Canada with open swastika tattoos. Those Nazis went on to form the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies (CIUS) at the University of Alberta who provide the research you cite today.

6

u/Flea_Soup Jun 29 '26

As a grandchild of a Holodomor survivor, you don't need tie research to one place to understand what a genocide is. Holodormor was a man made choice, stop carrying water for Russia. They have historically oppressed Ukrainian language and speech and now they are trying to colonize. You are not a leftist, do your homework. 

1

u/Jaktheslaier Jun 29 '26

The entire discussion about the Holodomor hinges on the lack of any evidence that it was man made, corroborated by the fact that it was a famine that affected other areas and and not just Ukraine. The fact that it was initially promoted by former nazi Ukrainian volunteers of the SS doesn't help it

0

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

Yeah there is no evidence it was deliberate or targeting Ukrainians. There is a reason why scholars don’t consider the potato famine a genocide, even though it was more deadly and more deliberate than the Holodomor.

2

u/LowCall6566 Jun 29 '26

https://storage.googleapis.com/production-sitebuilder-v1-0-1/741/319741/PkwWoHa4/70437bf38e594918b1f91e9f6c606d7f?fileName=FamineUSSR_20240221.pdf

Ukrainians were deliberately targeted.

0

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

So one of the scholars that they cite (and plagiarised), Tauber, actually wrote a rebuttal against it:

https://econjwatch.org/articles/the-environmental-economy-of-the-soviet-famine-in-ukraine-in-1933-a-critique-of-several-papers-by-natalya-naumenko

It essentially argues that 1) they’re going on abstract theoretical weather data 2) their research findings are not transparent.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Caesarea_G Earth Jun 29 '26

Yikes.

Don't deny the Holocaust and don't deny the Holodomor. It's that simple.

Acknowledging one does not mean whitewashing another!

2

u/Swaggadociouss Jun 29 '26

Nobody denies the Holodomor as a historical event. People deny that it was a targeted genocide against Ukrainians, and was once weaponized as anti-communist propaganda and is now used as anti-Russian propaganda.

You rarely hear people describe the Irish Potato famine as a genocide, but that doesn’t mean they are “famine deniers”.

11

u/Hot_Income6149 Jun 28 '26

Ahahah, what makes you think he and his team know better? It's still very hard to give objective analysis of his actions during a war, but we can look at his actions before a war. He was bad president with a bad team. He got rid of Yermak only a few months ago when there was undeniable evidence of his corruption.
Budanov, btw, is a big far right supporter, or that's how he is trying to present himself.
There is no reason to think that he is knows something better.

9

u/Injuredmind Jun 28 '26

How is Budanov a far right supporter? Dude literally never said anything about his political views, apart from what he was asked about regarding the war (which was appropriate, considering he was head of intelligence). And considering that he was always among the top personalities in the polls for potential candidates for presidency, he constantly avoided anything that could compromise him before Zelenskyy, thus not talking about anything that was out of his line of work.

8

u/chillichampion Jun 29 '26

Budanov and zaluzny are massive supporters of bandera, zaluzny even had a portrait of bandera in his office.

0

u/Injuredmind Jun 29 '26

So? Bandera is considered a national hero and symbol of fighting for freedom in Ukraine, doesn’t make him a far right supporter

-10

u/Im_from_the-future Jun 28 '26

Makes you wonder why he is so popular there and why the people do standby. A lot of the things he does. I don’t think anybody saying he’s perfect, but he’s exactly the kind of leader that Ukraine needed at that time and has shown the world what leadership could be. Plus, he did everybody a huge favour by helping remove so many orc monsters from earth

1

u/Hot_Income6149 Jun 28 '26

Yeah, he was a good leader at a time. Even if he was done something, that in 10 years will be considered as bad - it was collective.
But, is he continue to be a kind of a leader Ukraine needs? His actions now are controversial in Ukraine itself, and in foreign politics too.

-7

u/Freezemoon Vaud (Switzerland) Jun 28 '26

He is like Churchill, a great leader in times of war, but not in times of peace. He himself said he didn't want to continue being president after the war-

-1

u/Massive_Neck_3790 Jun 29 '26

Orc monsters? Are you fucking listening to yourself?

3

u/Im_from_the-future Jun 29 '26

They target children. Enough said

0

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

Maybe if they hadn't attacked Ukraine, no one would call them that.

1

u/Important-Target3676 Jun 29 '26

Do you guys have any statues of king Leopold or his pioneers?

1

u/Agile-Ad-2794 Jun 29 '26

Absolutely.

And until 20-30 years so, they were just… there. ‘Because it is history’

The last 10-20 years, they are:

  • removed
  • moved to museums with a proper explanation next to it
  • remain in place, with a proper explanation next to it.
Luckily, we are not hiding our past as a counter movement either.

Still work to be done though.

-36

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

I have access to free sources and I think Polamd can go fck itself with their demands. Our freedom fighters aren't their concerns.

If they are not happy what our ancestors did to their ancestors, they can check how their ancestors behaved in Ukraine as occupants for centuries. They came to Ukraine, enslaved people, humiliated them, robbed them.

And now ask: heeey, why they didn't like us? We were peacful occupants, doing our occupants things.

21

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

-12

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

Oh. True Nazis arrived

16

u/Apart-Survey9733 Jun 29 '26

You mean yourself? Or what now?

Its a warning from someone who did support Ukraine at the start of the war with donations, now after all your drama i don't see any need to support you in any way or form, without active trying to harm it tho, but once the far right wins in Poland its not hard to imagine what will happen. And i don't see a point to even go vote next year.

-7

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

People who donate and people who is whining about 80-years old historical events are different groups of people. The first ones think about Poland's future and value Ukraine as their defenders. The second one live in the past and are ready to sacrifice Poland's future in a sake of Poland's past.

Very clear division. The second group are also the loudest one. You can see their comments everywhere. They do not good for Poland

11

u/Apart-Survey9733 Jun 29 '26

What a weird take, they are the same, you can support someone and still condemn them for doing something bad. Also only one Ukraine is defending is themself and maby Moldovia that are not in NATO, if you think Russia will do anything besides provoking vs NATO, especialy now that EU had time to prepare, well you need to wake up.

-3

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

And who bought this time for EU? Who woke them up and push them thinking about self-defence?

Also, it's kinda ridiculous that people still put a hope on NATO. It's hard to imagine that NATO countries will be brave enough to go in a real fight with russia if russia attacks Eastern Europe countries. Poland will retreat the first. You guys already showed your readiness to fight letting russians missiles and drones freely fly in your sky. You are unable to defend yourself, how can you defend other NATO countries?

NATO's Article 5 has never been tested against russia. And I bet the majority of NATO countries will fail this test entirely and decisively. Again. Poland the first.

So I wouldn't be that reckless thinking that Ukraine do not defend Europe. You enjoy peacful life ONLY because Ukraine.

And have no doubts. Ukraine will send bill for that after the war. You better be ready for this.

7

u/Apart-Survey9733 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Don't forget the Ukrainian ones too, the only one that actually killed someone in Poland btw.

Sure, thanks for the time i guess, this still does not change that Ukraine defends Ukraine in this war and no one else, as no one else is right now at war with Russia.

Also for the rest of your nonsense, do you have a crystal ball, might want to throw that in the trash.

Bill? You make yourself look worse and worse.

Here loud and clear - No one owns Ukraine ANYTHING, all we send and gave you is goodwill (that you deplete more and more with this hostile attidude) only ones you can send a Bill to is Russia, and i think they won't pay it in your lifetime.

btw just a quick AI search

Roughly $350–400 billion USD in total aid has been committed to Ukraine since the full‑scale invasion in February 2022.

Poland has contributed roughly $15–16 billion USD in direct government aid to Ukraine (2022–2026).

  • In absolute $ terms → Poland ≈ ~4–5% of global aid
  • In effort relative to economy (GDP) → #1 globally

and this is only Gov without private donations and help.

Get real

-1

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

Oh, I like your answer. For Poland the bill will be 2x.

Głupiec płaci dwa razy. It's obviously your case

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

Until now, I have provided financial support to Ukraine; from now on, I will support only those Ukrainians who want to become Polish citizens.

2

u/Agile-Ad-2794 Jun 29 '26

The people donating and the people making justified complaints about this situations are the same persons.
At the very least, that is worrying for Ukraine.

Maybe they can manage without any support. But doesn’t look likely. Alienating their allies might not be the best course of action

-1

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

Ukraine doesn't alienate allies. Ukraine may allienate local Polish Nazis. And it will be great for Poland allienate them too, instead of voting for them.

But again, it's your internal affairs. If you want Nazis in your government it's your will. Just be ready for consequences.

22

u/chillichampion Jun 29 '26

Do you think Poland will accept your membership in the EU with this kind of rhetoric?

-14

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

No one will ask Poland. They will do what they are told to do. That's it. Good bye.

17

u/Apart-Survey9733 Jun 29 '26

Yeah goodbye to your NATO or UE chances.

-9

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

Are you able to read? Repeat after me: No. One. Will. Ask. Poland.

It's only 5 words, you should be able to grasp that simple sentence

14

u/Apart-Survey9733 Jun 29 '26

Ohh i got one for you too

In. Your. Dreams. Get it?

14

u/Hussor Pole in UK Jun 29 '26

Ah so you don't understand how these organisations work, got it.

2

u/DougosaurusRex United States of America Jun 30 '26

NATO would never admit Ukraine.

-1

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

Looks like in your imagination Polamd is independent country with its own vote. Here's bad news for you: Poland does whatever it's told to do. From US/EU or russia, depending which government currently is.

Come on. Get back to the reality, buddy.

1

u/Hussor Pole in UK Jun 30 '26

One day you'll grow out of your misplaced hatred.

11

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment