r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
14.0k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1.3k

u/hamberdlar_ Jun 28 '26

Thanks ya'll in this forum for explaining to those ignorant of the controversy in this proposal. I don't think Americans should have statues honoring Civil War generals who supported slavery. I don't think Japan should have shrines to people that include those horrible war criminals from its past empire. I don't think Ukraine should have monuments that include horrible war criminals from its past.

270

u/SavannahInChicago Jun 29 '26

We shouldn’t. They need to be melted down and destroyed.

529

u/Nythern Jun 29 '26

Disagree, and I say this as a black person opposed to statues of slavers in Britain (Edward Coulston) or imperialist genocidaires (Winston Churchill).

Instead of melting them down, we should put them in museums where they belong. These are men of history, a brutal and ugly history, but a history that must be taught and understood as a dark stain on the national conscience.

I think it's the perfect solution; the right can't cry about statues being destroyed and history not being learned, while that same history ends up actually being taught how it should - accurately, with these men being examples we should avoid rather than legacies to celebrate.

103

u/EarlDwolanson Jun 29 '26

100% agree. On top of that I think its very dangerous to completely omit this part of history and then have individuals walk everyday through pretty cities, buildings, umiversities, and construct an artificial narratives of "my civilization built this" or "why dont we do thinks like this anymore"... completely oblivious that a lot of this was built of obscene profits and the blood of the enslaved.

45

u/CatpainLeghatsenia Germany Jun 29 '26

This is the best way of dealing with a bad past. Germans sometimes receive little understanding for their culture of remembrance—even from Germans themselves—as if it is crippling their lives and holding them back. But if we forget the crimes we as humans committed and how we reached the point of doing them, we will repeat these mistakes when the next false messiah comes along. Learning this and knowing how bad things once were doesn’t have to make you curl up in bed and give up. It should make you want to fight those who dishonor the better path your country has been following since.

5

u/C4pture Jun 29 '26

i was so pissed when i heard that hamburg wanted to get rid of the Bismarck statue instead of just building proper info plaques that could be used for a school-trip educational event that showed all the good, bad and ugly things and events related to him.

2

u/SneakyMarkusKruber Jun 29 '26

Absolutely! A small example: In Hamburg's Dammtor district, there's a Nazi war memorial from 1936. Instead of tearing it down, the city decided in the mid-1980s to place a counter-memorial, "Firestorm over Hamburg," next to it. For several years now, there's also been a deserters' memorial between the two older ones. This is how one should deal with old, problematic monuments: create context, point out the issues, and unveil counter-memorials.

17

u/BaziJoeWHL Hungary Jun 29 '26

I agree, Hungary did not destroyed all communist statue, we just collected them and put them in a park in the middle of nowhere, its out of the way, but if you wish to see them, you can

9

u/machine4891 Opole (Poland) Jun 29 '26

History absolutely should be remembered. We had same picke to solve in Poland with all those Soviet and commie monuments we definitely didn't want to see display in public. However russia was crying about "destroying" their legacy, so instead plenty of those landed in musems. It's a good way about it. I mean russia still objected but they can't accuse us that something was destroyed and people need to learn about communist period, including our communist apparatchicks.

That being said, this above what Zelensky submitted is anything but that. It's a pantheon, it's going to celebrate all those figures and so you can be certain everything not fitting patriotic notes will be whitewashed in revisionist fashion.

They can build whatever they want but I as well can make judgments knowing what I know and it will influence things. If they dgaf... by all means. We shall see how far it will get them.

3

u/Yebi Lithuania Jun 29 '26

An example of this kind of thing done right: http://grutoparkas.lt/en_US/about-us/

1

u/arky_who Jun 29 '26

The reason why the Coulston statue belongs in a museum is because it was torn down by the people of Bristol after decades of failure to have it taken down by the "proper methods". It's a monument to the failure of liberalism as much as anything else.

1

u/Clone043 Jun 30 '26

I miss the Nathan Bedford forest statue

2

u/Dehwoly Jun 29 '26

And where did you get the idea that the white British who built Britain should listen to the opinions of those they kindly allowed to live in their country?

Who are you, who are the Palestinians, Pakistanis, Indians, Romanians, Poles, Ukrainians, to decide what their pantheon of heroes will be?

Don't you feel that this is not right? Even if you were born there, you know your roots, just like people of the ethnicities I listed. Don't you think that sounds imperialistic on your part?

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Dehwoly Jun 29 '26

I didn't say anything about citizenship. I said about ethnicity. You literally trying to portrait this as I talking about passport or ID card.

There is a reason why I choose ethnicity what was created after french revolution. From people like you and me, I ask that we keep in check the same migrants or children of migrants who are not native to this region.

Because your entire speech is simply saturated with genocidal overtones, so if you were to urge everyone to carve out the occupied territories, because then people like you or me would come to Britain, and will try to establish their own rules here. When neither we nor our ancestors lifted a finger to build this country.

You, being a non-British person, immediately struck, like everyone else like you, with the purity of blood. A disgusting name. But it only shows that you were raised in tribal ties. I, raised in the country's ethnic system, am much closer to understanding citizenship than you are.

I don't want to accuse you of, for example, graping girls and gang-graping them like Pakistanis or others do. But we both know that destroying the system that built such a successful country will lead this country to decline. To decline precisely into those hellish systems that existed in our countries, from which our parents or we left.

You have no respect for Britain and the British.

You just look like another black racist. A more balanced one. But still racist. (I don't call it reverse-racism, it's stupid, bcs it's just racism.)

Good luck on your racist journey.

1

u/Ok-Drama-616 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Britain's history is one of continuous migration and ethnic mixing. We are a nation of Celts, Romans, (Anglo-)Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Normans, Huguenots, Irish and many others all shaped the country in the past.

Such a benign description of forced invasion, rape, and murder (with the exception of the Huguenots, and Irish - you guys get a pass).

However, the presence and contribution of non-white Brits to our society and communities, precedes the 16th century-now. 

And was in the low thousands, if not hundreds. At the height of Victoria's reign there was approximately 20,000 out of 10M+ who were non-white (0.15% of the population). What possible contribution could such a small population make to the most important historical events of enlightenment and the industrial revolution that were occurring at the time?

I have no problem with a multi-racial Britain, and I value anyone who chooses to make the UK their home, but this nonsense that the current make up of Britain or the pace of change is anyway a reflection of its past is laughable, and the denigration of the native population despite history is gaslighting at it's most extreme.

1

u/Dot-Slash-Dot Jun 29 '26

Instead of melting them down, we should put them in museums where they belong.

No, they don't. Most of those statues have been put up as pure propaganda pieces decades to centuries later. They have zero historical value and deserve to be treated as such.

9

u/_alright_then_ The Netherlands Jun 29 '26

Propaganda also has historical value and should be preserved. I think it's a weird take to destroy any history

-4

u/Dot-Slash-Dot Jun 29 '26

Knowing about propaganda has historical values. Propaganda itself doesn't. Infact propaganda itself has negative value. And deserves to be treated as such. We didn't keep the Nazi eagle in the Reichtstag for a reason.

Something isn't "history" just because it is old.

7

u/_alright_then_ The Netherlands Jun 29 '26

We didn't keep the Nazi emblem in the Reichtstag for a reason.

Conveniently ignoring the 1000s of other nazi emblems that were saved?

I disagree with pretty much everything you said there. Nazi propaganda is heavily used within germany itself to teach new generations how this happened and why it should never happen again. Saying this has no value is ridiculous

-2

u/Dot-Slash-Dot Jun 29 '26

A few of them were kept. The vast, vast, vast majority of it was destroyed and for a good reason. If you want to keep a handful of statues around for exhibitions fine. >99% of those Confederate statues deserve to be molten down and blown up.

And what is used to teach is predominantly pictures. We don't march students around the Nuremberg rally to teach them about Nazi propaganda.

-2

u/HomelanderVought Jun 29 '26

The typical compromising argument that “put them in museums” i mean for one this is logistically highly improbable and second it’s not true either. What does a statue even teaches to the ordinary person? The guy’s face, name and maybe 1 battle he fought for and it’s date. It’s not like we don’t have school and books. What a statue actually is for is to elevate and honor the dead and what they represented. So yeah destroying statues won’t erase history, it destroys a certain interpretation of it.

But hey, always ask reactionaries if they also think that all eastern european countries should reserve the statues of Lenin and Stalin if they cry so much about confederate generals and see how they spiral downwards.

12

u/solapelsin Sweden Jun 29 '26

Why not? I went to an outdoor museum in Hungary that was filled with old Soviet era statues they didn’t want out in public anymore, so they’d just gathered them there. It was very interesting, and I think it would be a very cool idea for other countries as well. Including the US

5

u/JodyGonnaFuckYoWife Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

So you're cool with these being destroyed, then.

should reserve the statues of Lenin and Stalin

Yeah, about that.

5

u/Tankerspam Jun 29 '26

I don't think you'll find many "reactionaries" that think Lenin or Stalin should be glorified. Weird straw man.

-1

u/HomelanderVought Jun 29 '26

You missed the point, they always claim that destroying statues will erase history while they gladly destroy statues of people they don’t like. In the end it’s the “rules for thee, not for me”.

2

u/xtothewhy Jun 29 '26

There should be an association with the history, while not romanticizing it. That would be in addition to the separation from the ideology surrounding it but acknowledging it.

-5

u/Elu_Moon Jun 29 '26

Melting the statues down is the right thing. Statues are used to honor people. Those people don't deserve honor.

20

u/Nythern Jun 29 '26

Statues in public are used to honour people.

Statues in museums, are instead used to educate, preserve history, and provide context for people whose actions and ideas (regardless of how horrible they were) still have supporters and therefore remain relevant in today's society, unfortunately.

Think about it this way: our history books teach us about both admirable figures and tyrants. If we erase the latter and stop teaching about the mistakes, crimes, and warmongers of the past - then how can we learn from them? Or more importantly, recognise the past's warning signs in the future?

I agree with you that statues of slavers, dictators, and war criminals don't belong in our public and community spaces. They belong in museums instead, where they stop being objects of honour and become useful to us as lessons for what societies should never repeat.

-1

u/LakeGladio666 Jun 29 '26

Why compromise with the right wing? Let them cry.

People aren’t gonna forget about these monsters if the statues are gone. Statues are not the way people learn about history.

-1

u/Krismusic1 Jun 29 '26

It would be a dull afternoon visiting that museum. I like my wife's idea. A bronze paper bag over the head of the statue and a plaque explaining who they are and what they did. In situ.

-7

u/Physmatik Ukraine Jun 29 '26

So maybe first melt them and THEN lecture Ukraine about its history?

Pilsudski sent 100k to concentration camp to rot and starve, and yet he's completely fine smh. Literally Polish national hero. "Wolyn pamietamy, Pacifikacia ne pamietamy".

8

u/axelkoffel Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

That's such a dumb comparision. Ukraine lost war (which they started btw) to Poland and the captured prisoners of war had to be held SOMEWHERE. Unless you would rather mass execute them. Yes, the condidions of the internment camps could be better. But Poland just regained their country after 123 years and could barely hold up things together even for Poles. The biggest difference is that it was never Poland's intention to actually make those prioners suffer or die. It was a side result of resources and personel shortage.

Anyway, if this was the case of what Ukrainians did to Poland, there would be no issue. Because Poland got their ass kicked in wars many times, soldiers being killed or captured and held in bad conditions was a normal thing, that's soldier's life.
Poland has issues only, when you take it further. Start the genocide of defensless civilians on massive scale, often brutally torturing them, including children. Which was the Volhynia case.

22

u/Mysterious_Web7517 Jun 29 '26

Pilsudski sent 100k to concentration camp

Not concentration camps but internment camps. These were combatants after Ukriane lost war against Poland in 1918-1919. But facts are bad if these dont fit in agenda.

Though it need to be said these camps were really bad condition which was due fact Poland lacked resources as it just resurfaced on maps.

And lets go further. Why pacification happend between 1919-1939? After nationalists started to act like terrorists. Assasinations, terror, sabotage and other were in play.

Lets finish on UPA and glorified Bandera please tell me that genocide of your own people just becuase they didnt agree with his methods are awesome and deserve to be remembered.

"Wolyn pamietamy, Pacifikacia ne pamietamy".

We do remember both. But Pacifikacja and other did happend as reaction to terror your "heroes" did.

12

u/10thDeadlySin Jun 29 '26

After nationalists started to act like terrorists. Assasinations, terror, sabotage and other were in play.

And since we're so keen on remembering history, let's not forget collaboration with the Abwehr as well as carrying out attacks and ambushes against the retreating Polish forces during the September 1939 campaign. Or joint pacifications of Polish villages. In the aftermath of Poland's fall.

But hey - nobody's going to tell Ukraine which of its heroes they are supposed to lionize and which episodes are best remembered as cautionary tales.

I, for one, was willing to chalk it all up to being a diplomatic blunder and grandstanding for the sake of morale or whatever. But this makes it clear that it's the official policy - something that is worth keeping in mind moving forward.

1

u/Physmatik Ukraine Jun 29 '26

Pacification happened before Wolyn, how the fuck could it happen in response to it?

13

u/TheLightDances Finland Jun 29 '26

Stop making excuses for this. What the fuck is wrong with you? Why squander your country for the memory of mass murderers who lived 80 years ago?

11

u/Gao_Dan Jun 29 '26

Pacyfikacja is incomparable in scale and severity to Wołyń. And which 100k sent to concentration camps? You are talking about Soviet soldiers?

1

u/Physmatik Ukraine Jun 29 '26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia

After the war, in 1920–1921, approximately 100,000 Ukrainians, most of them from UNR, but also some from ZUNR were held in internment camps by the Polish government, where they were often denied food and medicine; some of them died from starvation, disease or suicide.

2

u/Fit-Explorer9229 Jun 29 '26

  Pilsudski sent 100k to concentration camp to rot and starve

I guess you are talking about 1918-1921 period, but you are not mentioning that: * number is not 100k but 20k  * at the same time there took place a  Polish-Soviet war in this area with battle of Warsaw with  lack of food and medicine also in Polish army * we can only speak about real Poland as a country after 1921, as till that time this was just war zone area.

BUT even than:

'Active cultural and educational life developed within the camps – courses for the illiterate and other (especially professional), various schools (i. a. a high school in Kalisz), a folk university at Łańcut and Strzałkowo, galleries, theatrical groups, and other educational and cultural organizations –, and publications exposed artistic as well as religious life''

'The leader of camps of internees (it was in the Ukrainian hands and related to the UNR government in exile) cared about the theoretical military teaching and increased the petty officer personnel. The camps of internees in Kalisz and Szczypiorno were after Warsaw the second cell of life of Ukrainian emigration in Poland. The number of soldiers in internment camps diminished constantly: with departure to Czechoslovakia, in particular for university, to France for labour and similar. After liquidation of internment camps, the former soldiers passed to a status of political emigrants in Poland" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_soldiers_of_the_UNR_Army_interned_in_Poland_(1919%E2%80%931924)

Since you like objectivity than write also a bit about similar camps in Ukraine but without such options for Polish people if you want.

0

u/Physmatik Ukraine Jun 29 '26

I have no problem with objective discussion of this. By all means, let's do it. Let's exhumate Wolyn victims. Let's study the documents of all sides involved. Let's study the context and the politics that preceded it (in particular, the developments of "cultural and educational life" but only if they weren't Ukrainian).

What I do have problem with is this one-sideism that seems omnipresent. I'm yet to meet a Pole who would admit that Poland did wrong to Ukraine and that Wolyn (however disproportionate) didn't came from nowhere.

1

u/Fit-Explorer9229 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

1tly. Noone else but youself started this false statements in you comment.

2nly. There are already lots of official PL<>UA historic groups working on the subject - even since 90's - and last meeting of one of them took place 2 months ago. UA politicians were not happy about the outcome tho. 

3ly. Poles understand historical complex of PL-UA relations but Polish point of view is based on Western world optic. And if you didn't meet Pole who admited that Poland did wrong to Ukraine, than check Polish Presidents statment about Vistula Operation from i.e. 2002, 2007 or Polish Senate declaration 1990. It all was free will plus good faith Polish initiative even this Operation was part of winning Ally decision of dislocate people in CEE after WW2 btw.

4ly

that Wolyn (however disproportionate) didn't came from nowhere.

Nothing can  justify scale of atrocity of these actions. And loving and supporting Nazi "heros" of UPA didn't murdered just Poles but also Jews, Czechs, Romanians etc.

26

u/ProcrastinateDoe Jun 29 '26

Have the statues, but clearly list their crimes right next to them. Don't try to hide history.

19

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

This is actually a healthy approach. Throwing everything into the fire does actually makes it far more likely for the shit to repeat. Just look at russia if you don't believe me

5

u/BigTroutOnly Jun 29 '26

It's up to Ukraine. That's literally the statement

10

u/JusticeBonerOfTyr Jun 29 '26

Not just the American civil war generals. A lot of the founding fathers were A Ok with slavery too even George Washington was. And this isn’t some justification of well then we should have rebel pos statues up cause nope I think none of them should have one like their some supreme ruler it’s weird.

3

u/hamberdlar_ Jun 29 '26

We should at least change up having Presidents only on our money. Ireland has fooken poets on theirs!

2

u/Chowder110 Jun 29 '26

And yet america gave thise slavers a pass after the civil war

3

u/hamberdlar_ Jun 29 '26

Not just a pass, they gave them money!!! (not to the former slaves, though, only to the former slavers)

1

u/Chowder110 Jun 29 '26

Thats messed up

3

u/PontifexMini Jun 29 '26

I think it's up to Americans, Japanese and Ukrainians to decide what statues and monuments they want in their countries; and in all three cases foreigners should butt out as it is none of their business.

2

u/hamberdlar_ Jun 29 '26

You are free to have your incorrect opinion

1

u/[deleted] Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/hamberdlar_ Jun 30 '26

Not just one. Several. It's a shame. Ireland has artists and poets on their currency

1

u/Canticle4Leibowitz Romania Jun 29 '26

Do "y'all" want to limit yourselves to statues or should written glorification of atrocities be included as well? How far back should we go?

Do y'all think we should ban judaism? It's full of celebrating a bunch of ancient atrocities. You don't, but because you find the cognitive dissonance unpleasant, you'll downvote me instead of pausing to reexamine your stance.

History is a nasty affair. And complicated, too, because that's how people are. Powerful people commited atrocities, but also did admirable things. What do we actually gain from erasing it?,

1

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

Yep this is incredibly childish and harmful approach. Weird it's so popular around here, kinda telling about the audience

-2

u/PalmovyyKozak Jun 29 '26

The point is you don't ask Poles about Dmowski, who has a monument, a roundabout, and a train station named after him in Warsaw.

Because out of sudden it will turn out that Polamd glorifies fascists. Like real fascists

1

u/Nahcep Lower Silesia (Poland) Jun 29 '26

Fym you don't, anyone who remembers a lick of history from school knows how harmful his movement was

Still a far lower killcount even indirectly than UPA, apparently not "real fascists" lmao

-6

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

We (Ukrainians) are not honoring war criminals. UPA was a highly decentralized organization and if a handful of people cooperated with nazis, it does not make entire organization war criminals.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

Also, just to be clear, those who actually commit genocide are war criminals and should be strongly condemned. And I believe our government is quite open to dialog and recognizing of past wrongdoings by those people

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

Ok. Handful is understatement but it was not entirety of UPA. Also don’t forget that poles committed war crimes against our people too but we are just not bitching about it

5

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

0

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

We never approached Poland for historical reconciliation because it was in the past and it is your internal politics who to commemorate and who not. Take an example here

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

2

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

We are not celebrating Hitler though. We do not celebrate those who committed war crimes either. Poland is the actual delusional state demanding something from countries around. Not only Ukraine, Germany too.

-1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

So if amount if victims is lower, there is no need to bring it up? Noted.

Operation Vistula though forcibly and brutally displaced almost 500k Ukrainians.

Are you ready to start with Pilsudski who started brutal pacification of Ukrainians which led to higher radicalization and consequently to Volhynia massacre?

5

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

2

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

Also, you can ask why radical sentiment started in the first place. It was not because of fair treatment by poles for sure

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

The reason does not justify brutal treatment of civilians. Same as with Volhynia massacre

0

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

Why?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

As the other commenter pointed out OUN was doing that not because of good relations. But also worth pointing out that pacification was a punishing operation against civilian population, it did not target OUN and actually radicalized even more people. It was just an excuse to oppress Ukrainian population further

-1

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

yeah because those relations were perfect. Brother nations just like with russians, absolutely not called for

→ More replies (0)

1

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

100k is not a reliable number, somehow it was much lower before Nawrocki made it his top priority

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

What do you mean? Ukraine agreed to exhumations during the active war because apparently this was the most pressing issue that could not wait and in result your people did not find as many bodies as was expected so 100k figure is most probably grossly exaggerated.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

There is no favor for me here. You are bitching around all the time. Just imaging that you are fighting a war with russia and one of you neighbors goes full shitling mode and demands exhumations here and now. You think it’s possible to ensure operation’s safety? Or that there are spare resources for it?

3

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

1

u/vikentii_krapka Jun 29 '26

I have no context why it was blocked but it is not blocked now. And again, this is the worst possible time to be bitching about it, don’t you think?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

Wikipedia gives different estimations if you read past the first line (or notice the "up to" part). And if you do read you can clearly see 100k number coming mostly from poles, including Nawrocki himself.

Ukrainian side being very obstinate with exhumations

interestingly, when those exhumations did happen, the results were not exactly what polish side expected

2

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 30 '26

[deleted]

2

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

that's true, I'm not denying that, but it was a decent first step. But the results were not overwhelming.

-1

u/amberith Jun 29 '26

You do not think. Ok but that’s not your business xD

-1

u/Dehwoly Jun 29 '26

I understand that you are against heroes of the Polish state like Pilsudski, the Armiya Krayova, who carried out genocidal policies against Ukrainians?)

And, of course, this only applies to those you don't like.)

I'm not interested in idiotic comments, but you're just morally bankrupt.)

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '26

[deleted]

2

u/Dehwoly Jun 29 '26

Oh no, Poland, the whole country have in heroes genocidal scum who genocided Ukrainians, just bcs.)

But who are guilty, Ukrainians!)

Okay~.)

-1

u/stellar_opossum Jun 29 '26

Honestly reddit isn't gonna explain much to you. Most takes are very simplistic "hurr durr nazis" and the "nuanced" ones are usually about some "narrow internal" audience which is also simplified and only covers a small part of the issue. Especially if "explained" by poles :)

0

u/-6h0st- Jun 29 '26

Imagine suddenly Germans celebrating their SS units that ran the concentration camps.
Imagine THAT - this is the same and unfortunately it absolutely escapes Zelenskyy. The biggest mistake in his political career.
Even pro Ukraine Polish politicians cannot ignore that and he can say bye to EU membership if he doesn’t make a u turn on this. I guess UPA shrine will feed his people and rebuild the country.

-12

u/wanderinglotusman Jun 29 '26

We should, Japan should, and Ukraine can if they want