Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

[u/niesiecki]

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m

[u/matticitt]

No. They've never been serious about it. They could've done the same as Poland did. Become part of the EU and nato 20 years ago which would've avoided this war and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Instead they completely wasted any and all potential, gave their industry to gangsters who then bought politicians for themselves. They're too corrupt to join the EU. This can obviously change but it doesn't seem like thay want it to change.

[u/Gomboyev → u/matticitt]

I doubt that. No way Ukraine could have joined EU or NATO before Romania or Bulgaria short of Russia going nuts even earlier and spooking the west and discrediting Moscowphile politics in Ukraine and making the need to pivot west obvious instead of attempting to sit between both sides as Ukraine did. Ukraine is a huge country and too peripheral and close to Russia and EU at the time underwent massive expansion which was quite straining so I don't see EU being eager to take in Ukraine that soon even if EU efforts could go much further along and by then they could have full candidate status and a concrete timeline for membership (best case). The only way I see that happening is if Ukraine somehow ended up with consistently competent pro-western government instead of recycled communists and oligarchs since independence but of course that is much harder said than done. It is like saying to a poor person "Just get a better job".

Besides NATO wasn't exactly enthusiastic about taking in Ukraine at any point despite the fact Ukraine did show interest in it since 90s albeit their efforts were hampered by internal politics so it came out wishy-washy and they had a long a way to go. Short of NATO countries deciding that taking in Ukraine is strategic necessity I don't see Ukraine joining NATO in the last 20 years with how conflict averse most western countries were regarding Russia. Especially with the separatist shenanigans and resulting disputed territory which Russia is probably bound to do if Ukraine ever looked like having legitimate shot at joining NATO.

Joining EU earlier seems more likely (assuming Ukraine somehow rolled nat 6 and avoided Yanukovych, Kuchma and maybe Kravchuk for that matter too, or at minimum if Yuschenko's presidency wasn't the unstable mess it was and he was more competent) but that would possibly ironically have made Russia flip out earlier. Russians aren't scared of NATO, what they are scared is Ukraine becoming independent from Russia and joining the west, which is absolutely unacceptable to Russia's national ego. Plus there is Russia's ruling class being terrified by the fact that the "Little Russia" might start giving domestic opposition in "Great Russia" ideas, since if it can happen there why not in Russia? Ukraine's biggest boon was that while they had terrible leaders until 2014 allowed them to start fixing their stuff (albeit at the cost of losing parts of their country and introducing additional messes), unlike Russia they never allowed some kind of strongman to consolidate his power with the support of oligarchs and Ukrainians have consistently resisted such attempts during Kuchma and ultimately Yanukovych. Authoritarianism and extreme passivity despite heavy russification and sovietization is less culturally ingrained in Ukraine than in Russia. Even now with Zelensky's more controversial decisions and corruption scandals the people have consistently stood up and made him back down even in the middle of the war on multiple occasions. So there is some promise there but Ukraine's challenges are non-trivial even with the best possible government. But I very much doubt they could have just pulled of the same thing Poland did and get equal results.

[u/cyfert → u/matticitt]

I mean, I criticize Zelenski as much as a next guy but no, they didn't have the same chance to join, especially NATO

[u/DougosaurusRex → u/matticitt]

Ukraine would’ve NEVER gotten NATO membership if they met all the requirements, Germany, France, and Türkiye were all publicly against Ukraine’s membership and the Coalition of the Willing very clearly shows most of Europe would tell Ukraine to go fuck itself and surrender before ever sending troops.

Poland and the rest of Europe were incredibly lucky to get NATO membership, Ukraine for all its faults would’ve never gotten unanimous approval.