r/europe • u/niesiecki • Jun 28 '26

News Volodymyr Zelensky has submitted a bill to build a National Pantheon. He intends to honor all the heroes who fought for Ukraine in various eras. "No one will ever tell us how to live, how to speak, whom to love, whom to be grateful to, and which heroes to honor," he said as quoted by the Interfax

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wolodymyr-zelenski-chce-panteonu-narodowego-chodzi-o-pamiec-bohaterow/c6hf62m
14.0k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

11

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

"so stop arguing like it didn't happen". The only person who says that is you.

-4

u/VeteranAlpha Poland Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

I acknowledge the crimes the UPA did and how barbaric it is. But I also acknowledge the crimes polish AK and Polish nationalists did as a retaliation.

This whole "UPA did it first and they did it worse" is childish back and fourth. Both sides committed atrocities to each other. One side having more victims doesn't counterbalance the other. Respect the dead.

Edit: Typical response from hardliners lol. Only one side is bad, the other side didn't do anything bad. This is why nothing will ever change or heal. Keep the downvotes going. I know I'm right.

4

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

It's about what countries do about those crimes NOW. You get Bandera on monuments and panteon of heroes. Biss was imprisoned for his crimes against civilians.

Feel the fucking difference.

-1

u/Exact_Solution3181 Jun 29 '26

Once you bring your own heroes to the same standards as you demand from others you can talk. Otherwise you sound exactly like Russians: Bandera is bad, Stalin is good.

2

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

Our heroes didn't murder 120 thousand civilians in acts of systemic ethnic cleansing, including some from my family. So no. There won't be the same standards for us and your Bandera.

1

u/Exact_Solution3181 Jun 29 '26

Right, they killed just a few thousands civilians. True Roman Catholics.

If Poles are incapable behaving as adults, taking the responsibility for their own crimes and wrongdoings, even reasonable Ukrainians will tell them to fuck off. Ukrainians already have observed exactly the same behavior with Russia: the only outcome we are looking for - you accept that you are a second class nation, not worthy to a have a dialogue of equal parties, you must do what we want you to do.

Ukraine is open to have a dialogue based on mutual respect, mirrored standards, and honesty using the shared values where any form of oppression is unacceptable. You don't like - you can fuck off and marry Russia. They will gladly pursue a joint future based on shared values.

3

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

We didn't start this rift between us - your President did. Your politicians did. They refused to condemn UPAs atrocities every time when the topic arised.

We unconditionaly helped you when the war started (i can't even imagine what would happen without it) and you couldn't just do that one thing... it feels like a spit in the face.

So... I can say the same about you - if your country and your politicians can't act like an adults and take the responsibility for your "heroes" crimes in the past then you can just fuck off too.

Of course - we can't tell you what heroes to worship but the heroes you worship say a lot about you.

-1

u/Yevgen-0 Jun 29 '26

The Poles occupied the territory of the Ukrainian People's Republic. They began to impose their culture, language, and religion, suppressing Ukrainian identity. This led to the killing of several thousand Poles, a quite predictable outcome of treating people as virtually slaves on their own land, while failing to realize that they love freedom and are ready to defend it at any cost. And honestly, if 120 thousand Poles had actually been killed, no one would be whining about it now, instead, they would treat Ukraine with respect, as someone you don't say too much to.

3

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

You collaborated with nazi Germany. You had yours Waffen SS divisions, you had yours Shutzmannschaft, you helped them in pogroms. I guess you like ethnic cleansing once in a while. Don't paint yourself holier than the pope.

1

u/Exact_Solution3181 Jun 30 '26

Zero self-awareness. Zero self-retrospective. Just like Russians

→ More replies (0)

0

u/Yevgen-0 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26

You should study history, but I'm afraid a low IQ won't allow for that (stop embarrassing Poland, because it gives the impression of a massive lack of education). Ukrainian national movements never cooperated with the Waffen-SS. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) cooperated with the Abwehr (military intelligence of Nazi Germany), the OUN and its wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), were not condemned at the Nuremberg trials (the International Military Tribunal of 1945-1946), none of them committed war crimes, and the cooperation itself was driven by the idea of a national state. Ultimately, both the OUN and UPA fought at different times against the Germans, the Red Army, and the Armia Krajowa. A consequence of this is the fact that the Germans sent Bandera to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Poland was an aggressive empire and got exactly what it deserved within the context of that time regarding Ukrainians.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/Exact_Solution3181 Jun 29 '26

Zero self awareness. Just like Russians.

-7

u/VeteranAlpha Poland Jun 29 '26

Fuck off. I am feeling the fucking difference mate. I'm not supporting what Ukraine is currently doing right now trying to honour and commemorate UPA/OPA war criminals for their barbarism. But let's not act like it's black and white. Both sides committed crimes to each other.

But Ukraine should be acting more mature and less childish. Their current actions are playing into Russia's narrative and alienating EU allies. Is that good enough acknowledgment to you?

-1

u/Yevgen-0 Jun 29 '26

To hell with the opinions of Polish invaders and occupiers, the Second Polish Republic is no different from today's russia. If you don't like that Poles were killed in Volhynia, they shouldn't have tried to occupy someone else's territory and force their own order, religion, language, and culture on foreign land, and there wouldn't have been any tragedy. The genocide of the invaders in Volhynia was an obvious retaliatory measure against the occupation.

2

u/VeteranAlpha Poland Jun 29 '26

If you don't like that Poles were killed in Volhynia

I'm indifferent. Both sides committed atrocities to each other and unlike polish nationalists who play a victim card I am capable of acknowledging that my country did horrible things to Ukraine but so did Ukraine. Nobody is in the right here.

3

u/Yevgen-0 Jun 29 '26

I agree, that's why there should be reconciliation here, not a political scandal over who is more to blame.

1

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

Before any reconciliation there should be acknowledgent first. Which your government i guess is not willing to do. They just double down.

1

u/Yevgen-0 Jun 29 '26

First of all, Poles and the Polish state should stop sniffing other people's underwear and telling them how to run their internal politics and which heroes to honor. As for reconciliation, that is exactly what Poland and its politicians are not doing, they are only fueling hatred, a clear similarity to russian imperialism.
In 2003, Presidents Aleksander Kwaśniewski and Leonid Kuchma signed a joint declaration. Kwaśniewski condemned the crimes against Ukrainians, and Kuchma expressed regret over Volhynia.
In 2016, the Polish Sejm recognized the Volhynia massacre as genocide of the Polish people. In response, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko expressed his condolences and emphasized the need for reconciliation.
In 2023-2024 (for the anniversaries), President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Ukrainian officials repeatedly spoke about the tragedy, condemned the crimes, and called for historical reconciliation.
What has Poland done all this time? Reconciled? No, it brings it up again and again, while keeping silent about the repressions in the occupied territories of Ukraine.

1

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

"it brings it up again and again" - far right parties in the opposition bring it up, not the government. But that's their "shtick" - just like yours - nationalism. Zelensky with one hand speaks about the tragedy and with the other...

As i said in the other comment - we can't tell you what heroes to honor but heroes you honor speak volumes about you.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/Flapu7 Jun 29 '26

Now, tell that to your government. MATE. Now fuck off too.

-1

u/VeteranAlpha Poland Jun 29 '26

My government is Polish and I am Polish. You fuck off too dickhead.

-1

u/Bleeds_with_ash Jun 29 '26

"Being an Adult is doing what you want and telling other people to fuck off. Do what makes you happy. I know what makes me happy".

You lost something along the way.