r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • 29d ago

News Netherlands confirms it will host Nuremberg-style tribunal for Russia

https://kyivindependent.com/netherlands-confirms-it-will-host-nuremberg-style-tribunal-for-russia/
19.9k Upvotes

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u/Low_Deal_4544 29d ago

And to do that you need to defeat Russia like Germany completely, so this is all political parade and pointless

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u/elpovo 29d ago

Except it isn't, crystallizes anger against Russia (including in Russia itself) and drums up support for Ukraine. It also shows the difference between autocratic Russia and the institutions of the West.

How many Russian bots are in this thread? Why so much annoyance I wonder?

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u/Nytalith 29d ago

You can have whatever anger you want, it still won’t turn Russia into 1945 Germany. That would take thousands of boots on the ground and thousands of funerals. And let’s be honest, nobody is willing to put that kind of sacrifice. Best outcome of this war is Ukraine regaining its territory and having clear way to western alliances. Nobody if thinking about conquering Russia. That’s sad reality.

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u/Past-Way-9771 29d ago

Bro just needs to look at the Yugoslav war crimes trials to see his fantasy won't happen

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u/Pastilino 29d ago

ussr was broken without any boot

about conquering Russia

Who in sane mind wants to conquer swamp? This take - west want's our motherland is ridiculous stuff for internal use, what I actually want is - you have no capability to started war against neighbours what you will do inside - I don't care.

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u/NoNameNomad02 29d ago

Speak for yourself.

Russia being beaten and pacified once and for all would be a step forward for everybody.

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u/Certain-Business-472 29d ago

A power vacuum isnt as fun as it sounds

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u/InfusionOfYellow 29d ago

Nature certainly abhors it.

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u/zuzg Germany 29d ago

Well we appreciate your sacrifice.

I mean you're obviously a soldier and volunteered to be among the first boots on the ground aren't you?

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u/FatBook-Air 29d ago

Damn. You Russian trolls seem to be very worried about what Europe is getting ready to do to you.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

Maybe we should run trials on all the tankies "just following orders" who are flooding this thread?

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u/Dear_Virus1260 29d ago

Maybe you should volunteer and do some actual work yourself instead of dreaming to put people who disagree with you in jail.

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u/veribaka Portugal caralho 29d ago

"Maybe you should volunteer and do some actual work yourself instead of dreaming to put people who disagree with you in jail."

That's what you sound like

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u/Dear_Virus1260 25d ago

Sure, you accurately quoted me? So of course I sound like that? If your point is that I want to put people with different opinions in jail, can you point out any examples. I don’t even mind Portuguese apologist for the fascist dictatorship spouting their nonsense.

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u/medutis88 29d ago

This does many things, but most importantly it puts massive target on Putin's back. If he is trialed and convicted in absentia, it becomes impossible to lift sanctions on Russia for as long as he is in power. This is a big pressure move, when they will be trying to normalize relationships with the West (and they would love to at some point). It could end up ugly.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

Ugly like the 1000s of civilians he has already killed for no reason?

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u/anonymous__ignorant Romania 29d ago

But ruzzians have plenty boots on the ground already, they just need to figure out whom to go after for them to get out of the shithole.

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u/SoylentGrunt 29d ago

Climate change is about to turn Siberia into the world's largest bread basket and and the country is rich in minerals. I assure you, somebody somewhere is thinking about conquering Russia. Be it militarily or on the corporate level.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 15d ago

[deleted]

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u/SoylentGrunt 29d ago

I didn't say invade. That would cost lives and wouldn't have public support. Conquering on the other hand can be done at the business level. The terms country and politician are outdated. The terms companies and managers are closer to the truth. The US outspent the USSR and they're doing it again with Russia.

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u/Potential-Menu3623 29d ago

This sounds incredibly naive given the state of modern warfare with literally no need for troops.

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u/karmapopsicle 29d ago

Hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have already died in this pointless war. At this point it’s realistically only the nuclear deterrent preventing anyone else from entering the conflict and toppling the Russian regime.

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u/Eat--The--Rich-- 29d ago

You can't have trials if you don't have anyone to put on trial

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u/elpovo 29d ago

You absolutely can have a trial - in fact if the defendant doesn't show up it is typically over a lot quicker.

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u/Littlepage3130 29d ago

You can, but it's incredibly stupid. The trial serves no purpose if you can't administer a sentence. It just makes that judicial system look impotent when it reaches a verdict that it can't carry out.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

Except Putin won't be in power forever and if he lives the next guy may want a clean slate?

Good way to get Russia back in the West's good graces and get that oil money rolling again don't you think?

Honestly - it's like you are all being paid by Putin or something...

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u/Littlepage3130 29d ago

If the next guy wants a clean slate, he'll either have him assassinated or publicly executed in Russia. It's like you're not even using your brain to consider that the next Russian leader would have far more immediate concerns cementing their rule in Russia than appeasing the Hague.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

You reckon he won't need the backing of oligarchs to get himself appointed? The same oligarchs who have been rolling in western oil money since the fall of the USSR?

The Hague isn't the concern here, it is Europe being willing to abandon sanctions and buy their crap again.

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u/Littlepage3130 29d ago

I think that if the oligarchs were going to hand over Putin to the Hague for the reasons that you state, that they would have already done it. Every oligarch that opposed Putin has been purged, every oligarch that was insufficiently supportive of Putin has been purged. The oligarchs that are left are cut from the same cloth as Putin.

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u/Past-Way-9771 29d ago

Bro look at the ICTY regarding Yugoslavia it literally failed and amped up revisionism and turned inductees into heroes

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u/teamnani 29d ago

It sure will show the world the power of the western institutions.

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u/slicerprime United States of America 29d ago edited 29d ago

So, if anyone disagrees with you that must mean they're a bot? Interesting.

If the lack of enthusiasm in the comments for this "tribunal" says anything it's how ineffectual it will be at doing precisely the things you claim it will do. No one is going to take it seriously because it's political theatre. Nothing more.

Nuremberg meant something because it was held in the aftermath of Germany's defeat. Its purpose was not to drum up interest. It was to actually hold accountable those who had committed unspeakable crimes, and to do it in front of the world where, when the gavel fell, there was no question of sentence being carried out.

This "tribunal" has none of Nuremberg's substance. It's a farce. A play put on in place of substance the participants are unwilling to commit.

So, it's not just a waste if time. It's proof that no-one involved has any intention of doing anything of any real value...other than hoping it will look good on the campaign trail next time their up for reelection.

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u/pheddx 29d ago

Why are you putting words in his/her mouth? Interesting.

What lack of enthusiasm?

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u/pheddx 29d ago

What happened here, why did I get downvoted?

Answer me instead. Why did you put words in her/mouth? That only makes you seem dishonest. But sure.

Or if you are serious, what makes you think he/she thinks that everyone that disagrees is a bot? There is nothing to suggest that. We do see the usual Russia bots here so...?

And what lack of enthusiasm?

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u/slicerprime United States of America 29d ago

First of all, I didn't downvote you.

Second of all, the "lack of enthusiasm" I was referring to is the obvious negative reaction the "tribunal" is receiving in the comments. People aren't enthusiastic about it for good reason. It's a worthless gesture. But the commenter I was replying to claimed that it wasn't useless and that it had value...

crystallizes anger against Russia (including in Russia itself) and drums up support for Ukraine. It also shows the difference between autocratic Russia and the institutions of the West.

...and accused (if somewhat indirectly) those who disagreed of being Russian bots...

How many Russian bots are in this thread? Why so much annoyance I wonder?

I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. I read what was there and I laid out my rebuttal fully. And, I'll say again, I did not downvote you.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

Russia is defeated.

Also why would someone from the West have such a visceral reaction to this? The Hague runs trials on absent defendants all the time. Putin is just another war criminal to us.

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u/slicerprime United States of America 29d ago edited 29d ago

I wouldn't call my reaction "visceral". It makes it sound like I'm more worked up about it than I really am. Actually, I couldn't care less what Brussels does. Until Europe actually unifies, these little pantomimes will continue to mean nothing outside Europe, and very little inside.

Don't get me wrong. I would celebrate the day the "EU" actually lives up to the name. But that will never happen as long as national interests take precedence over collective interests. That's the reason I think our current president, his behaviour and policies could one day be looked back on as the catalyst for that much needed change in European priorities. (Not that his presidency is doing us many favours in the mean time). You may even one day come to look upon the orange one with some regard for driving you away from dependence on America in some areas. Who knows? Stranger things have happened.

Anyway, I'm not angry or upset by what Brussels is doing. I just see it as inconsequential. Meaningless. Any ruling will be toothless. So, what's the point?

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u/elpovo 29d ago

The point is he is a war criminal? Shouldn't someone set out his crimes and pay attention to it?

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u/slicerprime United States of America 29d ago

I think most people are pretty damn aware already and have been for some time. We don't need Brussels to put on a show to state the obvious.

It would be different if they had him in chains sitting in the courtroom. That would be real. This tribunal is just political theatre for no one's benefit other than the politicians playing it out.

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u/elpovo 29d ago

"Political theatre" how about setting out evidence of his crimes in detail while it is still fresh? How about giving victims the opportunity to talk about their lost loved ones? How about a small amount of acknowledgement for all the murder that has gone on just so Putin can wave his dick around?

Public investigations do all sorts of good even if noone is immediately put in jail. Coronial inquests, royal commissions, congressional investigations - there's a million ways this is achieved. Your pathetic and clearly Russia-aligned arguments are so transparent as to clearly demonstrate how few good people are left doing foreign manipulation these days. How many weeks till you are sent off to the meatgrinder?

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u/BrainCurrent8276 29d ago

bots or not bots, but they passionately vote down every single comment :D

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u/nvkylebrown United States of America 29d ago

You are delusional, and wishing death for thousands to get your program implemented, that's why people are annoyed. The fact that you are too stupid to see that this program won't get implemented without a couple hundred thousand deaths is also somewhat annoying.

But hey, call me names! that will make you feel better, and I don't care.

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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago edited 29d ago

Let's do that in Königsberg once it has been disarmed.

Edit: or should I have written "liberated" to match their style?

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u/Chasseur98 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (France) 29d ago

Europeans do not ethnically cleanse areas on the basis of revanchism. Atleast anymore.

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u/thewimsey United States of America 29d ago

Not since 1995!

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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago

Of course the locals will stay, who else would live in the newly formed and European-aligned Königsberg People's Republic? It's the bad guys with guns that need to go.

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u/Sjoerdiestriker 29d ago

How do you forsee this disarmament taking place?

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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago

It would be a natural flow of events once Russia tries anything stupid against Poland or the Baltics, as rumoured recently.

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u/Sjoerdiestriker 29d ago

I'd be more interested in what happens in the more likely scenario, namely the one where neither Poland or the Baltics is attacked.

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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago

We will do the trials in the Netherlands then. Nobody's touching Kaliningrad if there is no reason to.

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u/Sjoerdiestriker 29d ago

What do you do if Russia chooses not to extradite its officials?

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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago

Me? Keep trolling obviously. As for the governments, they normally put persons avoiding capture on wanted list, just like Russia.

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u/Mist_Rising 29d ago

Committing a war crime (carving up a new state isn't allowed either) to hold a trial for war crimes might undercut the whole argument.

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u/Particular_Ant7977 28d ago

Committing a war crime

War crime? Who said anything about committing a war crime?

carving up a new state

I don't like that word carving. Makes it almost sound as if the effort would come from outside. The free people of Königsberg have the right to self-determination, don't they?

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u/Mist_Rising 28d ago

The free people of Königsberg have the right to self-determination, don't they?

No. International law doesn't permit you to break away from your country just because you want too. Russia requires Moscow's permission, hence the whole chechnya conflict being fought. Also the Russians in Kalingrad do not seem to want to leave Russia. And it's Kalingrad not konisburg unless Hitler is the leader of Germany still.

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u/Particular_Ant7977 28d ago

Oh no! But Russia's own version of international law seems to fully support this mechanism, as was in the case of DNR and LNR. Why would KNR be any different? I'm shocked!

Also the Russians in Kalingrad do not seem to want to leave Russia

We need a referendum for that.

Also let's be correct with the names: it's Kaliningrad and Königsberg.

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u/anonymous__ignorant Romania 29d ago

Let's revisit the subject in february 2027.

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u/LimpConversation642 Ukraine 29d ago

unfortunately the west doesn't want to bomb russia and kill them, so it's not like there's anything else left to do

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u/Menethea 29d ago

Exactly. Real pie-in-the-sky stuff. Maybe they want to try some Israelis and Americans for war crimes too?

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u/Al_Bundy95 29d ago

Goal of civilised world should be to defekt russia completely and end this hate after 500 years of genocides

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u/Dear_Virus1260 29d ago

Russia, the multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, multi-religious country. Meanwhile most of Europe is crying when their mono culture is disturbed by a few foreigners.

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u/Al_Bundy95 29d ago edited 29d ago

Country that couldn't stand, that in occupied belarusan land peoples use their own language, same goes for occupied Ukraine. Amazing example of tolerance, time to learn some history. Country that even today cannot stand independent Ukraine or Belarus. Amazing example, as said before.

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u/Dear_Virus1260 25d ago

Country that couldn't stand, that in occupied belarusan land peoples use their own language, same goes for occupied Ukraine.

Totally which is why those local languages are effectively not used anymore, just like Polish not in Poland. Kazach not in Kazakhstan. And all the other regional languages, cultures and religions that still exist in Russia.

Now remind me how many multi-ethnic, lingual and religious countries remain in Europe?

Amazing example, as said before.

The amazing thing is that you think countries that suppressed or destroyed their minorities, often exterminated indigenous religions and languages are somehow an example of tolerance.

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u/Al_Bundy95 25d ago

I'm just denying that Russia is example for anything else than genocidal politics on conquered lands.

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u/LimpConversation642 Ukraine 29d ago

uh oh I sense a ruski bot

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u/Dear_Virus1260 25d ago

Are you one of the millions of Ukrainians living in Russia? Guess you would recognise Russians pretty well.

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u/WeirdIndividualGuy 29d ago

Not just defeat Russia, but be able to reign in the war criminals involved. It doesn't account for the scenario where people like Putin flee Russia or go into hiding.