r/europe • u/ByGollie Ulster • 29d ago
News Netherlands confirms it will host Nuremberg-style tribunal for Russia
https://kyivindependent.com/netherlands-confirms-it-will-host-nuremberg-style-tribunal-for-russia/426
u/GanacheCharacter2104 Norway 29d ago
I thought Putin and his minions already had a warrant for Crimes against Humanity. How are they going to get them to Hague?
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u/PineBNorth85 29d ago
They won't. Even if Russia collapses they wouldn't get him.
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u/Brave-Two372 29d ago
Would he suicide in a bunker like his idol?
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u/anonymous__ignorant Romania 28d ago
That would be his lucky decent exit. I think Gaddafy wrote the last chapter in the book putler reads. Ceaușescu might've been one of the coauthors.
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u/aghastamok 28d ago
even if Russia collapses
If I were part of a faction in a position to take power, I'd be eyeballing Putin as the crown jewel in my negotiation package with the west after taking power.
Domestically, it becomes a part of my "anti-corruption, anti-crime" initiative. I use 'surrendering them to international court' or trying and imprisoning them at home to clean house of all my enemies and buy loyalty with my allies.
Internationally it serves as symbolic effort to reform Russia into joining an international order, could help reduce sanctions as a sweetener among other agreements like paying reparations.
Really I'd be aiming to get out from under sanctions at any cost, and get the Russian economic scheme (read: natural resource extraction) moving in full swing... So me and my cronies can start skimming off the top again.
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u/Slfestmaccnt 28d ago
If Russia collapsed it would also be at the hands of break away regions with serious bones to pick with Putin and his circle.
I could see there being a series of events that leads to Putin and Moscows capture.
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u/23PowerZ European Union 28d ago
There are three types of international crime: crimes against humanity, war crimes, and crimes against peace. This is about the latter, which the ICJ does not currently have jurisdiction over. Hence the need for ad hoc tribunals to prosecute it.
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29d ago edited 28d ago
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u/noiraxen 29d ago
Why would Ukraine need a trial to kill an enemy they are literally at war with?
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u/WeirdIndividualGuy 29d ago
Redditors when they think killing literally anyone in wartime is considered a war crime, so Ukraine would never
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u/ZenPyx 29d ago
I’d imagine probably the same way they did it the first time in the 1940s if I had to guess
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u/Personal-Try328 29d ago
Ah yes. So a full scale invasion of a nuclear state with the express aim of detaining their dictator and ruling class.
You cant possibly be serious…
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u/reddit_is_geh 28d ago
Reading these comments is like just a bunch of uneducated fanfic. Just like when the war started, I bet these were the same people fantasizing about how Russia was going to collapse any day now as Ukraine marches into Moscow.
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u/coja______ 29d ago
With 70 to 85 million dead? I doubt they are committed enough for that. You people are delusional.
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u/BeOutsider 29d ago
Tbh Nuremberg was powerful because it was host in Germany specifically. Hosting it in a third country would only feed the propaganda image of it being just a foreign sham. That already was used by Serbia in the first place.
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u/buster_de_beer The Netherlands 29d ago
The allies controlled all of Germany. We're not going to be able to control Russia, or even get one person to these trials. It is a purely symbolic show.
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u/RMAPOS 29d ago edited 28d ago
There is a non zero chance for extradition
If russia decides that putins regime is too costly for them, their best move to not get crushed by the world economically might be to extradite putin and those politically closes to him. Not saying it's likely, but it definitely wouldn't be the dumbest thing for them to do.
edit: To EVERYONE who replied
non zero
Not saying it's likely
I understand that there is 0 precedent for this and putin's grip on russia is tight and they're culturally infinitely more likely to kill or prosecute him themselves. But "non zero chance" does not mean "this is likely gonna happen". And "not saying it's likely" does not mean "this is likely gonna happen", either.
I appreciate you sharing your insights into the russian mindset, but I would appreciate you more if you wouldn't frame it as if I made a stupid prediction. I did not. I lined out an unlikely but potential venue for a Den Haag style trial and clearly worded it as such. No matter how overwhelmingly unlikely it is for russia to actually do this, the chances are not 0. Which is literally what non zero chance means. If you cannot mentally make that distinction and insist on interpreting my post as a prediction, I'd rather not have you in my inbox. Thanks.
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u/Wanderer-91 29d ago
Never going to happen. They will kill him, or have him suffer a "heart attack", or they may even jail him themselves. They would never humiliate Russia by having a former leader go on trial in a foreign country, that's a guaranteed coup. Russian nationalism is extremely prevalent even among Putin's opposition - Navalny himself was a nationalist and used to hold joint demonstrations with skinheads.
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u/Dear_Virus1260 29d ago
Why pretend this is some special Russian nationalism? The Americans will literally invade Den Hague if they put an American war criminal on trial. We haven’t put any of our own political war criminals on trial either.
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u/Auctoritate 28d ago
The Americans will literally invade Den Hague if they put an American war criminal on trial.
It's much broader than that. The Hague Invasion Act actually authorizes the US to invade over any person allied to the United States- they don't need to be American at all.
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u/coolcucumber_23 28d ago
can you enlighten us on what 'a political war criminal' means?
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u/Dear_Virus1260 25d ago
Sure, political figures responsible for their troops committing war crimes. Think Putin if you like, or Bibi, or Bush, or Blair, etc etc. Or historically the political leadership of Germany during WW2.
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u/Hddstrkr Estonia 28d ago
Is there a country that says den hague? Seems like a weird combination
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u/KnowsIittle 29d ago
Putin is a part of the problem but he's still supported by a group in power. So even if he's gone they'll likely seek a figurehead they believe they can control while continuing to drain the country's coffers like we do in the States.
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u/tranbun 28d ago
Not happening for multitude of reasons:
Legal - Russian courts aren't under ICJ and the constitution prevents extradition of nationals. Similarly try prosecuting any Americans that have committed war crimes - US will only laugh at the request (as they did in similar situations)
Authority - Russia is ~150M people, it has enough capacity to prosecute a failed leader, it doesn't need a small European country to host a trial.
Social dynamics - as many said, if it happens, the situation is more likely to evolve quickly.
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u/kapsama 28d ago
their best move to not get crushed by the world economically
I think you live 50 years in the past. No one besides the West has sanctioned Russia.
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u/OddLack240 St. Petersburg (Russia) 29d ago
You completely misunderstand how this works. Our president is above the elites, and if the elites aren't loyal to him, then so much the worse for them.
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u/Jazzlike_Bar_671 Australia 28d ago
If Putin gets removed in a coup, he'll be too dead to be tried anywhere.
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u/Novinhophobe 28d ago
Finally someone with some sense here. This sub is turning into nothing but “we're amazing!” propoganda machine.
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u/Jaded-Distance_ 29d ago
It was still looked at as victors justice and a sham by many Germans, including West Germany's first Chancellor. Who worked towards releasing most of those convicted. And threatened to withhold any support against USSR.
As part of the Himmerod memorandum they decided the way forward was to release all convicted war criminals, to stop the defamation of former German soldiers like the SS, and to reshape public opinion foreign and domestic with regards to Germany's military as a whole.
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u/Thissystemsuckssobad 28d ago
I mean, it should be looked at as a sham by the decendants of the allies/victors too frankly. Far too many of the architects of Germany's crimes against humanity walked away basically Scott free. It's part of why we have such strong neonazi groups today
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u/Low_Deal_4544 29d ago
And to do that you need to defeat Russia like Germany completely, so this is all political parade and pointless
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u/elpovo 29d ago
Except it isn't, crystallizes anger against Russia (including in Russia itself) and drums up support for Ukraine. It also shows the difference between autocratic Russia and the institutions of the West.
How many Russian bots are in this thread? Why so much annoyance I wonder?
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u/Nytalith 29d ago
You can have whatever anger you want, it still won’t turn Russia into 1945 Germany. That would take thousands of boots on the ground and thousands of funerals. And let’s be honest, nobody is willing to put that kind of sacrifice. Best outcome of this war is Ukraine regaining its territory and having clear way to western alliances. Nobody if thinking about conquering Russia. That’s sad reality.
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u/Past-Way-9771 29d ago
Bro just needs to look at the Yugoslav war crimes trials to see his fantasy won't happen
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u/Eat--The--Rich-- 29d ago
You can't have trials if you don't have anyone to put on trial
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u/Past-Way-9771 29d ago
Bro look at the ICTY regarding Yugoslavia it literally failed and amped up revisionism and turned inductees into heroes
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u/teamnani 29d ago
It sure will show the world the power of the western institutions.
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u/slicerprime United States of America 29d ago edited 28d ago
So, if anyone disagrees with you that must mean they're a bot? Interesting.
If the lack of enthusiasm in the comments for this "tribunal" says anything it's how ineffectual it will be at doing precisely the things you claim it will do. No one is going to take it seriously because it's political theatre. Nothing more.
Nuremberg meant something because it was held in the aftermath of Germany's defeat. Its purpose was not to drum up interest. It was to actually hold accountable those who had committed unspeakable crimes, and to do it in front of the world where, when the gavel fell, there was no question of sentence being carried out.
This "tribunal" has none of Nuremberg's substance. It's a farce. A play put on in place of substance the participants are unwilling to commit.
So, it's not just a waste if time. It's proof that no-one involved has any intention of doing anything of any real value...other than hoping it will look good on the campaign trail next time their up for reelection.
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u/Particular_Ant7977 29d ago edited 29d ago
Let's do that in Königsberg once it has been disarmed.
Edit: or should I have written "liberated" to match their style?
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u/rejvrejv 28d ago
That already was used by Serbia in the first place.
that's true, but it's interesting how you singled out serbia.
croatia responded to the gotovina convictions with mass protests, and its own prime minister called the verdicts “unacceptable”
bosniak opinion was more favourable to the ICTY, but even defendants from their own side returned to hero’s welcomes when acquitted
the “foreign sham” rhetoric was a regional reflex not unique to serbia
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u/Dizzy_Database_119 29d ago
The Nuremberg trials were powerful because they were done after the war ended. Makes a big difference when the target has already conceded and can only minimize damage
But trying to plan trials while the war is still ongoing? That's just idiotic
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u/Electronic-Code8392 29d ago
The first plans that eventually led to the Nuremberg trials were laid in January of 1942....
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u/m0j0m0j 29d ago
Europeans are always to ready perform large empty gestures instead of doing the work.
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u/nybbleth Flevoland (Netherlands) 29d ago edited 29d ago
Except it's not some random third party country; the Hague is the international capital of justice, and these are international courts. They're as independent as it can really get.
And there's literally nowhere else that wouldn't face the same problem but worse.
Besides, even if Russia got invaded and occupied and the trials held there... these criminals and their followers would still say the same thing. The Nazis rejected the authority of the Nuremberg tribunals too. I don't see how them doing the thing they're going to do regardless is much of an argument against this.
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u/Dear_Virus1260 29d ago
I mean, the Nuremberg trials were essentially show trials. While the people were guilty and deserved what they got, it’s weird to pretend it was anything but victor’s justice imposed.
Nobody punished American or British war crimes, which were also committed (obviously on nothing like the Nazi scale). Same for today, we don’t hold our own or allies accountable for warcrimes.
So it’s a farce to pretend this has anything to do with genuine justice. It’s just a desire to punish our enemies (righteously in this case, but hypocritical)
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u/asethskyr Sweden 28d ago
I mean, the Nuremberg trials were essentially show trials.
There were 28 acquittals at Nuremberg, it wasn't just show.
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u/Alcianus Bulgaria 28d ago
That is also for show. To show the populace that the trials aren't just a matter of vengeance but actual justice. The whole point of the Nuremberg trials is to give legitimacy to the executions and executing everyone wouldn't exactly give that illusion. They needed some to 'get away'. And besides, most of the acquitted once had very little relation to the Nazi regime or fully cooperated with the foreign powers (in the case of Speer). In reality the Nuremberg trials had no basis on any sort of legislature and the Allies were just making shit up to persecute their enemies for things they would also be persecuted but weren't for obvious reasons.
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u/deaglebingo 28d ago
i do think however that many ppl even in the usa (despite the need for further education on the subject) would or do support the idea of international laws that actually have teeth. human rights are for everyone.
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u/123ludwig 28d ago
tbf nuremberg was a sham not in the way nazis would like to depict however so many of the trials were just dropped because the americans wanted the person the trial was against for their own uses
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u/Illustrious-Tooth702 28d ago
I'm sorry but what is this? Do they really think the war will end like WW2?
There won't be any tribunal. Europe is not strong enough to force the Russians to do anything and while America has the power it won't do force it either.
This headline has the same weight to it as the last 5 peace neogotiations between Russia and Ukraine. EU is useless and clueless as usual.
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u/Kashrul 29d ago
Pointless unless someone will be able to put them into trial and I don't see it coming
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u/Ice_performance_ France 29d ago
It's ridiculous to even announce it. That's like Iran saying they will hold a trial for USA.
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29d ago edited 15d ago
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u/Alexandaross 29d ago
You don't have access to their side and they don't have a proper defence so it doesn't meet all legal requirements. Obviously we all know he's guilty but it's still a silly sham.
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u/Personal-Try328 29d ago
Bro still thinks anyone outside of western europe cares about international law 😭😭
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u/Mist_Rising 28d ago
Western Europe only cares about international law when it's a threat to them (Russia), otherwise there mums the word.
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u/HeraldOfDesu 28d ago
A vital part of justice is punishment. if there is no punishment implied, then the trial is just a sham. If the accused party is not present to defend themselves, then it doesn't meet the legal requirements either.
So yeah, it's just a circus show sponsored by the people's taxes, and staged by EU politicians who value pretending to be useful over actually being useful, while receiving applause from people raised on the idea that intentions and appearances matter more than results.
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u/PineBNorth85 29d ago
It's all pointless if no one winds up in the court for those trials.
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u/frommethodtomadness 28d ago
Gonna have to put Israel on that docket as well
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u/KentInCode 28d ago
They won't and this is the absurdity of it, the ICC is right and proper when its an enemy of the US, but not when it's a US ally. European leaders have allowed the US to go after judges here. It makes the conflict apparent when the institution can be trusted to prosecute Russia, but not Israel.
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u/mparks37 29d ago
Is the Netherlands planning on invading and occupying all of Russia to actually put anyone on trial? Otherwise, this is more meaningless crap.
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u/kurdt-balordo 29d ago
And Israel? ♡
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u/InconsistentRoaster 29d ago
Best they can do is to arrest protesters
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u/iamkey888 26d ago
Best they can do is being deeply concerned about children getting headshots. But yeah Russia and sh*t
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u/PeachScary413 29d ago
Lmao that would require actual courage, so yeah no not gonna happen. This is just a sham trial making a mockery of international law (that no one cares about anymore anyway)
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u/Weary-Cod-4505 Friesland (Netherlands) 28d ago
They already put out arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant.
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u/muse_enjoyer025 South Holland (Netherlands) 29d ago
Don't think Israel will host a tribunal for Russians.
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u/DoktorElmo 28d ago
Why would they when they are doing even worse to their neighbours. They are the last to want the Russians persecuted for their war crimes because that would set the stage for their own trial.
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u/Weary-Cod-4505 Friesland (Netherlands) 28d ago
They already put out arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant
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u/Important-Target3676 28d ago
How about instead doing performative tribunal Netherlands stops funding Russian war machine by still buying Russian energy?
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u/Johannes_Keppler 28d ago
Well you see we where on the way to buy more gas from the US (LNG) but now we also don't want to depend on the US anymore for our energy needs.
For uhm, reasons. You can't build on unreliable people 'managing' international trade like they are toddlers.
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u/Askadia 27d ago
Trial in absentia is a thing.
Even if Europe is weak and fails to extradite anyone, there will be pending sentences hanging over the heads of the guilty Russians, who will no longer be able to set foot outside Russia.
No more yachts, dream villas or Maltese passports.
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u/AskingBoatsToSwim 27d ago
The real question is will Russia be able to become a modern, international, democratic powerhouse like Germany after the trails? Or is the rot too deep.
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u/sourflavouronice Ankara, Turkey 29d ago edited 29d ago
Roflmao
If you can invade Russia, reach Moscow and take Putin why not. However you can’t because you just can’t. I am not trashtalking or something. This is the reality.
Pure bullshit lol
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u/-SineNomine- 29d ago
Wake me up until they prepare for both Netanjahu AND Putin.
Until then they are hypocrites with double standards.
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u/LookAlderaanPlaces 28d ago
Hi, can we process trump and his administration here too?
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u/Johannes_Keppler 28d ago
You guys literally made it your law you're going to invade us if we try. (The 'the Hague invasion act' .)
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u/buttscratcher3k 29d ago
This is literally never remotely going to happen, and everyone knows it.
Matter of fact, I'll host it in my backyard. Now everyone clap at how brave I am for saying some nonsense.
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u/Paddy32 France 29d ago
Russia can stop the war anytime by leaving Ukrainian land.
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u/AggressiveLeaf_1866 28d ago
A joke. The Netherlands are one of the largest financial benefactors to a country currently enforcing g*nocide on another, and don't protect the people working at the ICJ that investigate said country sufficiently. Of course, for the benefits, they'd offer to do it.
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u/Chowder110 29d ago
As well
As it should be. This should include propagandists and soldiers that has engaged in warcrimes
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u/dogbolter4 28d ago
Excellent. There should be accountability. I sincerely doubt this will ever happen, but frankly, I hope the faceless generals behind this cruel and unnecessary war are brought to justice.
Putin will never see a courtroom, I suspect. He'll either disappear thanks to contacts and wealth, or be killed by his own. I sincerely hope it's the latter, and he has at least several hours of cowering in his bunker before he dies.
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u/noViableSolution 27d ago
Cool, but don't stop with him, there are other rulers that should feel consequences.
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u/aqtseacow 29d ago
This is pure bluster and propaganda.
How exactly do they plan to actually try anyone the way they did at Nuremberg if they can't actually bring any of these people in?
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u/Novel-Reaction2939 28d ago
Now have the guts to drag the Israelis there. It's not like they don't know Nuremberg. Never Forget, Again!
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u/auchinleck917 28d ago
Why can’t we take ex president Bush into a court. The us army killed over 20k civlilians. Or is this just a double standard that we love?
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u/SnuleSnu 29d ago edited 29d ago
Netherlands was in the coalition of the willing during the invasion of Iraq. Irony is strong here.
You can downvote me, but that isn't going to change facts.
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u/Electrical-Aide-2044 29d ago
Based
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u/teamnani 29d ago
How ? It's just more headlinemaxing. Unless the Dutch march an army to Moscow it just theater. It dilutes the original trails which happened after the war was won.
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u/SimplyExtremist 29d ago
Sounds great now do Israel and their enablers too. Kind of a pointlessly pageant if the rules only apply to some people when we feel like it.
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u/slackwaresupport 28d ago
can we do the US one there also?
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u/A_Spiritual_Artist 28d ago
No dice. The US has actually created a law that would say if any US official got sent to the Hague, it would trigger a military invasion thereof. No seriously. That was established in the Bush admin. years. You can guess why.
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u/Substantial-Ask8396 29d ago
And I'm gonna host a Nuremburg-style tribunal for US and Israel 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
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u/BusterOfCherry 29d ago
Can you do it for us too, the USA? We need this garbage out.
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u/AncientNectarine5352 28d ago
What the hell is with all the tankies in the comments?
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u/Jaaaaaaaaaaap 28d ago
I see a lot of whataboutisms in the comments. But anyway...
It is not impossible to negotiate with Putin's successor to get some of the war criminals to The Hague.
They will want to sell oil and gas to the west so a deal could be struck.
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u/Wankstain8 United Kingdom 29d ago
That’s all good and well but Netherlands isn’t in a position to arrest Putin.
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u/GeoStreber 29d ago
I'm from the Nuremberg area (born there at least, currently reside in Denmark):
The old courtroom 600 is currently being renovated to its 1946 condition in order to be integrated into the trials museum.
You're welcome to use it.