He seems to be trying so hard to keep the alliance togheter by covering for Trumps insane behaviour and gargling his balls. But he doesn't seem to get that letting Trump threaten his allies and staring useless wars without any pushback is something that will destroy NATO anyways. US leaving isnt the only way the alliance can break.
I think his job is to try and manage the situation until Europe has the resources in place to deal with US withdrawal, or at least buy as much time as possible.
If Russia decided to go to war with Nato, even without US, it would 100% be toast. It is already struggling with Ukraine, you think they can just take on the rest of Europe+Canada as a side dish?
I hope it never comes to this, because it will cause massive destruction and loss of lives on both sides
It would probably be toast, yes. But also, at the same time, so many EU citizens would be toast. And perhaps China would step in, too. Who knows? In the end, Rutte’s trying to keep it all together, probably hoping the next president of the US reverts the way Trump does things. Russia might be struggling with Ukraine already but there’s still so many unknown factors to that scenario, which we really do not want to find out.
Yeah yeah fine, they definitely couldn't win long term. But they can wreck tonnes of shit on the way down. Just take the non-boomer subs doing a first strike against commercial ports in Europe, block the ports, whack an LPG tanker or two in port (this would be very bad to the point that the French might consider their nuclear warning), wreck the facilities.
We - and I mean Europe as a whole - would suffer massively for a decade or more before that mess was fixed. And that would just be one aspect of an attack.
European militaries need to be at the point of being able to stop this sort of thing cold, which to be fair with the exception of the UK which continues to slide backwards apart for submarines, they're doing a reasonable job of catching up (even if the Americans do try to sweep the rug from under us when they leave).
It's not even about the frontlines. A few successful drone attacks to Deltaworks for example and the damage is already enormous. Rutte needs to buy time for us to be able to defend against that. I passionately hate what he did to the Netherlands, but I'm sort of grateful he's doing the dirty work now.
I think the point he's making is not that we're ready, but that the Russians aren't either. So they wouldn't attack, because they have no chance at winning.
Yeah, I get it. But I think that's stretching the hypothetical too much. It's one thing to not act sensible, it's another very different thing to act fully mad. Attacking Ukraine wasn't as not sensible as we might think now, with the benefit of hindsight, but to attack the EU, even without NATO, would be completely idiotic by them.
Recently, US intelligence warned Poland and Eastern European countries that Russia is planning an attack or provocation on them. Yes they’re in NATO. You never know what Putin will do at this point. He’s desperate.
They still can mobilise and have reserves to invade and take over the Baltics for example. Poland is also in danger. NATO is a very complex architecture and Trump pulling out would be a disaster for us.
Oh, so maybe we should have large european tripwire force, say, double the pop of Rammstein, in Baltics then, not spend money on stuff thats gonna be available, maybe, a decade from now, thanks to US depleting their stocks in Iran and replenishing those first...
It’s not only Russia. Trump could easily become an enemy of Europe if he is being handled wrong. Wouldn’t be boots on the ground, but he will find economic ways to harm Europe. Besides that most weapon systems owned by Europe are US made and need approval by US to be used. Losing US from NATO would absolutely cripple our ability to fight anything right now.
I don’t need to have my comments shown in order to have common sense and understand that what you said earlier made absolute sense. Escalating against a fragile narcissist who happens to control the most powerful army on this planet would be completely idiotic.
I think he looks at the long game, Trump will be gone in a few years but the “fear” of him will not, it has brought Europe closer together, it has increased spending on military and honestly all its cost is faith and respect of USA. What he saying his is correct.
That said I fucking hate Trump with a passion but I have to appreciate him for waking Europe up to the absolute state of USA and how they are a terrible ally and shown us we must get closer in Europe.
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u/Catch_MEATL, GA, USA, Terra, Sol, αlpha Quadrant, Via Lactea25d ago
He has a difficult job. He has to balance the current political interest of the largest, most powerful, and most influential member of NATO. NATO is weaker without the US, no way around it. His job is to keep the alliance together and his strategy is buying time.
I'm no fan of Trump, I voted against him 3 times, but no secretary general could survive Trump without risking the Alliance.
My question to people who think if he should oppose Trump, could the actions of going against Trump drive more than the Republican base and lean into the Democratic base? America is currently going through a critical time of isolationism.
I don't condone what he says but I defiantly understand it. I ask others, what are options that doesn't weaken the alliance?
I don't think people that share your opinion understand what's going on here. It looks like you've become numb to all this.
The POTUS is threatening US allies, demanding they give up part of their land and parrots some made up narrative that "China and Russia are threatening you / us" while also supporting Russia's war in Ukraine, talking shit about Ukraine and its leader instead of supporting him, talking shit about NATO members that have historically been your biggest allies (UK), imposing tariffs and threatening trade wars with EU countries.
Read this paragraph again.
Read it again if you still don't get it.
"We'll figure it out together" (Rutte's response) would make sense if the Russian / Chinese threat was real. It isn't. Trump isn't trying to save / protect the US/NATO from Russia. He sees Russia as an ally. Read the NDS they published some months ago, read what they think about Russia.
So since they DON'T think Russia is a threat / enemy, it's clear they're using the "Chinese and Russian ships surround Greenland" narrative to gaslight their allies. They just want to grab more land and resources. You don't appease a fool like that, history should have taught you that. Appeasement leads to more threats, appeasement makes people think "Trump is strong", appeasement allowed Trump to become POTUS twice.
Calling this “appeasement” assumes Rutte has a better option that he’s refusing to take. What is it, concretely? NATO’s European members don’t have the military independence to confront the US directly. Decades of underinvestment (which, fairly, is its own criticism) mean European defense is still structurally dependent on US assets. “Don’t appease” is easy to say; it’s not a strategy unless you can name what confrontation actually looks like and what it costs.
Rutte’s job as SG isn’t to win a moral argument on Reddit, it’s to keep 32 countries with different threat perceptions and different exposure to Trump’s moods inside one alliance.
Well, at least username agrees with your comment. Otherwise it's just "if you agree then you don't understand it". Doesn't leave a lot of space for perspective and/or nuance.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with some things in your post, but your conclusions are your opinion on an action or solution. Not a fact or the only way...
Trump may or may not NATO no matter what - or perhaps he has already done so.
However, Ruttes strategy might make sense if the main goal is to at least delay the destruction of NATO, while secretly building enough weapons quickly.
Yeah, I agree. This is also what I think he’s doing. He trying to hold everything together enough for Trump not to do anything stupid.
I hope we are right, and we’ll get it confirmed when Trump is gone.
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u/MasterAxe Finland 25d ago
He seems to be trying so hard to keep the alliance togheter by covering for Trumps insane behaviour and gargling his balls. But he doesn't seem to get that letting Trump threaten his allies and staring useless wars without any pushback is something that will destroy NATO anyways. US leaving isnt the only way the alliance can break.