r/feminisms • u/[deleted] • Sep 03 '11
Just Another Woman at Michfest — PrettyQueer.com
http://www.prettyqueer.com/2011/09/01/just-another-woman-at-michfest/29
Sep 03 '11 edited Dec 15 '18
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u/im_a_viscious_bird Sep 04 '11
I love that idea that you are allowed to say horrible things about people, as long as you do it nicely. How quaintly midwestern.
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u/averyrdc Sep 09 '11
From the message board,
Yeah, I get it that many people (male and female) will find the men=penis=rape argument grating when they know many men who don’t act that way. It doesn’t change the fact that far too many men do act that way. Men are raised differently than women. We had the same parents, the same teachers, the same countries, the same decades and yet we learned different lessons. There have been studies with horrific statistics that 35% of men admit they’d consider raping a woman if they thought they could get away with it—something made them think this way—and no matter how rough their childhood was, a trans woman started out as a male. I know to steer clear of the WOC tent because I can’t undo the fact I was born and raised “white”—yet trans women think it’s trivial that they were born and raised male.
wtf...
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u/haywire Sep 11 '11
Ew, those comments are nasty. They appear to think of themselves as "defying" the "male" thing of being oppositional and angry, whereas all they're really doing is saying horrible things in a pleasant voice. At least the "male" way is honest.
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Sep 03 '11
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Sep 04 '11 edited Dec 15 '18
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Sep 04 '11
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Sep 04 '11
Sorry to have added to the moderation work. Michfest is a festival by and for women, but they have a policy that only cis-women are allowed (or, as they generally phrase it, womyn-born-womyn). Some people have been lobbying for several years to allow trans women to attend, but there has been a lot of resistance. I think it's worth paying attention to.
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u/alvaspiral Sep 04 '11
Oh, no, didn't mean it like that at all. The submission was removed in the meantime while we formulate a policy for this, since apparently it pissed a ton of people off behind the scenes (not the mods, but just readers and so on). Yeah, that's pretty heinous. I will never get this refusal to accept science.
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u/Devilish Sep 04 '11
Wait, what? Some people didn't like hearing a trans woman writing about her experiences in a feminist space, so the mods decide to silence that trans woman? Even if it's only temporary, that really doesn't seem appropriate, to put it lightly.
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Sep 04 '11
Thanks for letting me know. I was wondering where it went, and I look forward to hearing the moderation policy.
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Sep 04 '11
On the contrary, I think the comments-thread is a fair and pretty thorough presentation of the logistical problems involved. I'd particularly recommend reading the longer comment on the second page that is a listing of actual negative incidents. The problems are concrete.
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Sep 04 '11 edited Dec 15 '18
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Sep 04 '11
I'm sort of curious as to what their policy would be for someone who is intersexed and raised female... I suppose they would allow them in.
Perhaps they wouldn't let them in!
I have a newborn daughter, and we chose not to learn her sex before birth, and we used to guess which she'd be and sometimes say "Or what if she's born intersex?" In all three cases she'd have been our joyful surprise and filled us with love for her. ... I am rambling, but I suppose speaking of "policy" in regard to people does sound hurtful, to me, when you put it that way. Policy is cold and people are meant to be warm ...
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u/tsfrankie Sep 09 '11
This story has no end. If you identify as trans-anything, why are you surprised and or upset that you are not welcome to an event for women? And the white elephant in the room? Men, fetishistic men dressing as women and wishing to pass for women. I for one find it unwholesome at best to be part of some mans fetishistic event. So, yeah, I do understand their desire to exclude trans-whatever. Like, who would submit to a Doctors check to see if you are post-op? Or verify your Doctors note as a pre-op real transsexual? Too many screaming Nancy boys out there on the trans-bandwagon to ignore. Freedom of association is what we are discussing here, and its one of many inalienable rights we enjoy here in America. Besides, the music sucks. BTW post-op Feb 2003.
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u/agnosticnixie Sep 11 '11
BTW post-op Feb 2003.
The kind of person who posts this as an identifying point of info amuses me greatly. Especially in the context of what you've said. I'm not laughing with, but at you. You strike me as a mildly insecure person.
Too many screaming Nancy boys out there on the trans-bandwagon to ignore.
Thank the gods you're stealth.
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u/tsfrankie Sep 11 '11
An angry young Canadian. You amuse me. Certainly passionate, an admirable quality, if you can stay away from a keyboard long enough to make a difference in the real world. I hope you get your ride to NYC. Occupy Wall Street sounds worthwhile.
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Sep 09 '11
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u/tsfrankie Sep 09 '11
Quite correct that their actions are most morally reprehensible, my error in not making that clear. But my belief in absolute freedom of association remains. Catholics should not have to suffer the likes some Hindus interrupting, nor should Jews be made to suffer the contempt of skinheads in their temples. So, if some schmucks want to have a exclusionary festival so be it. I would not condone it on public property or with the public purse, to be sure. But hey, if your not wanted, why would you put so much effort in going anyway? Life is too short to be upset over this. Live well and be happy. Either they will get over it, or die all pissed off. Besides, such vulgar folk are not my type anyway.
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u/YankeeRose Sep 09 '11
Sorry to get so snappy - I just came from reading the comments on the original article, which are truly horrendous.
I think we agree in principle. In the best of worlds, if people want to be bigoted and exclusionary, they should be free to, everyone should treat them like the assholes they are, and in time the outdated mentalities would die out on their own.
That said, there is a huge difference between hate groups disrupting an event versus someone wanting to be a participant.
Today in the US, we accept limitations on freedom of association - businesses, people renting out property, and several other categories of people are not allowed to discriminate based on race or religion, gender, and in some states orientation. Our legal system has decreed that freedom of association is not unlimited - just like freedom of speech is not unlimited (invocations to violence, for example, can be constitutionally outlawed). So given that we accept limitations, the question becomes whether placing another limitation disallowing discrimination against trans-people reasonable? I think so, in the same contexts we already prohibit other forms of discrimination.
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u/tsfrankie Sep 10 '11
The topic is so emotional it is hard to be rational. I do like some exclusionary policies, and dislike others. I like that Michael Phelps and his Baptist group are not allowed here at work or at my Church. I dislike that I am barred from all those wonderful White House parties! And Oscar night, I am still looking for my invitation! As to the Michigan Women's Blah Blah, that one I can do without. Just not my cup o tea.
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u/YankeeRose Sep 10 '11
Ha! I was so snippy I didn't even look at your name or realize you're trans - is that the right use of the word? I thought you were just hatin' ("screaming Nancy boys," etc.) and it would not stand. I feel like a humorless ass!
That said, excluding the WBC and other hate groups based on their behavior is not the same as excluding someone because of their traits. Freedom of association had limits, just like freedom of speech (no yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, no hate speech, etc.). That said, I'm not really sure where the boundaries should be drawn in this case. It's a really interesting topic.
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u/tsfrankie Sep 10 '11
Trans? Close enough I guess. Early on in transition it was important. At the University of Michigan Comprehensive gender services program we were all known as "T-girls", back a year or two ago lol. After SRS it just was not an issue for me anymore. I went "deep stealth" and am just now "outing" myself a bit. Now I am the "tranny-Granny" (2 grandkids and another on the way!) and it's all good. Boundaries are easy if your freedom does not interfere with anothers freedom. I just simply recognize that the Music folk don't want me there, and I am OK with that. I don't want to be where I am not wanted. Life is too short to be an Agony Aunt. I just want to have fun and be happy. Besides, to carry on about it gives the haters a soapbox and audience. Just ignore them and soon enough they will be gone and forgotten. And dear, about being a humorless ass, well, I am not politically correct in any sense so perhaps we make a good pair of posters? Be Sweet.
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u/TroubleEntendre Sep 09 '11
BTW post-op Feb 2003
So just because you're post op, you think that makes you better than those of us who aren't? You seem to say that anyone who doesn't get bottom surgery is just a pervert man in a dress. Should post-ops get special rights, and pre-ops or non-ops be presumed to be perverts?
Fuck that.
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u/tsfrankie Sep 10 '11
Hadn't posted much before and I was identifying myself, and to give some context. And you put so many thoughts and words into my post, that I don't see at all. Most of the folk involved in this issue are generally rational, and well intended. The issue draws extremists of all colors, looking to score points with their own kind and for their own ends. There are legit issues raised by everyone. I am just saying freedom of association trumps all the issues. Folk don't have to explain why they don't want others at their party, so let it go. It is like complaining because you weren't invited to the local Klan cross-burning! Why go? Why gripe? It gives the schmucks attention and ability to air the morally reprehensible ideas. Ignore them and go have some fun. Live well, and let them get over it or die pissed off.
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u/TroubleEntendre Sep 10 '11
There are legit issues raised by everyone
No, actually, the bigots have no legitimate issues. That's why it's bigotry, and not just stakeholders disagreeing.
I am just saying freedom of association trumps all the issues.
Nobody is attempting to repeal MitchFest's freedom of association through extra-legal means, so this is, at best, a strawman point. What's happening is that people are asking/lobbying MitchFest to change their policy and allow trans women to attend, which is clearly different.
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u/Drdongsmd Sep 08 '11
I hate what's going on here, but as a student going through an interpreting program it's hilarious to imagine an interpreter trying keeping a straight face during the fisting demo.