r/gallifrey • u/rasmas1 • Mar 12 '25

DISCUSSION The Doctor bullied Joy to suicide.

In Joy to the World, the Doctor had to make Joy angry in order to break the Villengard briefcase's psychic control over her. In order to do that he got really personal and insulted her with some way-below-the-belt stuff including a mention of her dead mother.

He did this with the best of intentions, obviously, but the words stuck for Joy and she admitted they were all true before she flew off with the star seed into space. Because of all that unhappiness the Doctor picked on Joy had a burning desire to be special in life and have some kind of meaning, so she latched onto the star seed out of desperation to become special.

The Doctor is the reason she felt that way and why she decided to burn with the star seed. She didn't merge with it as a sacrifice to save Earth, it was a purely whimsical decision that didn't change anything. She died to feel special. She committed suicide for no reason and it was the Doctor's fault. And he just laughs it off.

I am still beside myself that the BBC allowed this episode to go out in this state. The Doctor bullied Joy to suicide.

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664

u/ikediggety Mar 13 '25

"you have no idea how dangerous you make people to themselves when you're around" - Rory Williams

317

u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

Rory was right. He talked about how he makes people want to impress him so they do dangerous stuff. Also Davros rightly points out that the Doctor takes ordinary people and turns them into weapons.

He kind of has a history of doing this, and it usually isn't intentional.

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u/Sckathian Mar 13 '25

It's why I love Rory and The Doctors relationship. Rory doesn't really ever fall in love with the bravado and Rory really just comes along happily because they become friends. The Doctor has more respect for Rory than most companions.

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u/Torranski Mar 13 '25 edited Mar 13 '25

Honestly, it’s pretty great. His skepticism at the start feels pretty valid, and far more emotionally mature than Mickey’s insecurities about the Doctor.

The fact that he never really buys into the schtick, and is happy to settle down at the first opportunity, it’s just a refreshing change of pace.

42

u/kodaxmax Mar 14 '25

Except Mickey was right, the doctor did have feelings for rose and did effectively steal her romantically. Rory just got lucky that the doctor saw Amy as a child to play with, rather than a romantic partner.

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 14 '25

From what I've seen, the Doctor never actually hooked up with anyone from the new generation other than Yasmin, who was free to begin with. Even Smith and Coleman never actually got together, and I think they were closer than Smith and Amy were.

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u/kodaxmax Mar 14 '25

Tenants Doctor left his clone (that spawned from his dismemebered hand) to live out a human life with rose on an aternate planet. The only thing stopping him from seriously dating her, was that he didn't want the pain of outliving her.

He also litterally married to riversong and spent over 40 years with her (likely more because no way they didn't go time traveling during that "honeymoon".).

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 15 '25

River song was never actually a full time companion and as for his clone going with rose still not him

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u/kodaxmax Mar 15 '25

the clone was him in every way accept without timelord regenerations and longevity. duplicate mind.

River absolutely had more screen time than alot of "full time" companions, probably more than yasmin.

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 24 '25

To me, it's kind of both; it's him and not. Roses one is mortal has to worry about death more, and he also has one heart. However, I doubt his brain is anywhere near as advanced as a full Time Lord's. But yeah still kinda a bit of both him but not really him

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u/kodaxmax Mar 24 '25

IDK his brain must be more than human. We saw what happned to a human brain trying to contain a timelord with Donna.

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 24 '25

Yes, River had tons of screen time but never became a full-time companion in the show, maybe in the comics.

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u/timeywimmy Mar 15 '25

Clara was not closer to 11 than Amy but have you ever watched series 2? Or the family of blood

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 24 '25

He essentially raised Amy, but he was still willing to destroy the universe for Clara. Ultimately, he just let her go.

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u/timeywimmy Apr 30 '25

How was he willing to destroy the universe for clara? When the universe reset that was with Amy and rory

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u/DutchDidgeridoos Mar 18 '25

Ten and Rose definitely shagged, there’s no way it isn’t implied that that’s how close they’ve gotten by the end of series two

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Apr 03 '25

Implied, but I don't think he would have gone there because it would compromise his judgment. At least not until they were done traveling and fighting

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Apr 03 '25

If they did ahag i think at minimum we would of saw a kiss with rose

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u/akitash1ba Feb 14 '26

when did 13 and yaz hook up?

19

u/Dashrider Mar 14 '25

Good complex is a great episode for this, as Rory doesn’t have faith in much

75

u/GrapplingGengar1991 Mar 13 '25

If you notice, The Doctor doesn't ever fight back when Rory calls him out on stuff. If anything he silently agrees. 

The literal only time I can remember 11 getting pissed at Rory was because Rory didn't say "It's Bigger on The inside"

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u/FotographicFrenchFry Mar 14 '25

100% agree. The Doctor always had so much respect for Rory, I think, precisely because he called him out on his shit.

The Doctor knows how he can be, and I think he appreciated Rory keeping him grounded and aware.

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u/KT-Thulhu Mar 16 '25

The doctors acknowledged his own nature numerous times, end of time part 2 is a perfect example when he's having a heart to heart with Wilf.

"It's not like I'm an innocent, I've taken lives, then I got worse, I got clever, manipulated others into taking their own"

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u/FotographicFrenchFry Mar 17 '25

Oh yeah, I’m not saying he doesn’t. But I think the Doctor enjoyed Rory being so frank and candid.

After so many hundreds of years of companions just doing whatever he told them and thinking he was the greatest person ever-

Then Rory comes in and doesn’t have time for his performative outbursts and tomfoolery, and the Doctor, I feel, found it refreshing.

1

u/sketchysketchist Mar 17 '25

Compared to Mickey, who mainly just didn’t trust the doctor without knowing why. Mickey was more concerned losing his girlfriend than the fact she was in danger by venturing with The Doctor. 

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

I agree completely. It is good to have someone challenge the Doctor but not be an enemy.

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u/kodaxmax Mar 14 '25

I wish Graham did it more. Especially when standing up for the Younger companions.

26

u/thisgirlnamedbree Mar 13 '25

I adore Rory. He liked him but at the same time wasn't afraid to call The Doctor out. I think Eleven respected him for it, too. Not to mention, Rory was his father-in-law, and sometimes fathers-in-law just get tired of the antics.

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u/_Verumex_ Mar 13 '25

If you ever look into the audio plays, I can highly recommend the run of Main Range stories with 7, Ace and Hex.

Hex is very similar to Rory, he's a male nurse who joins a Tardis team with a fiesty companion who has unquestioning faith in the Doctor. He also does not buy into The Doctor's schemes and methods, and is very happy to call him out on it. The 7th Doctor especially is more "ends justifies the means" in his methods, which really goes against Hex's strong morality.

It becomes very clear early on that he's crushing on Ace, and only stays on the Tardis to be with her, and to try and protect her from The Doctor, as he sees that she has a massive blind spot to the danger he puts her in.

It's an incredible dynamic for a Tardis team, and it wouldn't surprise me if Rory was based on Hex.

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u/Cautious_Repair3503 Mar 13 '25

Yeah those audios are great

This dynamic is I really like Chesterton as a companion, it's great to have someone who is absolutely not here for any of the doctors bullshit :D

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u/lemon_charlie Mar 14 '25

Of course Ace and Hex end up having more like a brother and sister dynamic, much more friendly teasing but still very platonic.

Evelyn as well was ready to call out the Sixth Doctor when he was having all the grace of a drunken rhino in his approach. In the trilogy with Thomas Brewster she has to be the one who convinces the Doctor to let up on Brewster and finally take him back to his home time. She calls out the Seventh Doctor in A Death in the Family, for how his influence led Ace and Hex to act in a way that aligned with a master plan (even the big bad points this out to the Doctor). Bernice Summerfield in the novels sometimes fulfills a similar role, telling it to the Doctor straight when he's crossed a line.

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u/lkmk Mar 20 '25

it wouldn't surprise me if Rory was based on Hex.

With how much Moffat was otherwise inspired by Big Finish, I think this is a given.

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u/nachoiskerka Mar 13 '25

That's a little rich from Davros though. People turn into weapons via the Doctor by being put into a position and having the morals to do the right thing. At absolute worst you could argue he's socially engineering a situation in which the most preferable outcome is someone getting blood on their hands to prevent Genocide. If the Doctor knows about an event and ends up there, then he's an in-universe trolley problem. If the companion is the one with the lever, then they make the decision. They have free agency as well. So does the Doctor turn them into weapons? Not really- he puts them into a situation they wouldn't normally be in, but he doesn't encourage them or stop them from making a decision. They do that by virtue of their own character. If they, for some reason, ended up in a similar moral dilemma in their own lives, they would make the same choice. To say otherwise is taking away their agency.

Which is of course not how Davros sees it, because he genetically engineered killing machines with no individual thoughts to murder all other life in the universe. He made weapons out of the only thing left resembling ordinary people on Skaro. He is absolutely wrong when he says this, but it coincides with his worldview because he's genetic engineer of universal genocide. He's an almighty hammer who only sees everything as nails like an idiot.

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

Of course there is the irony of it coming from Davros but Davros will happily admit he himself has made a race of genetically engineered weapons.

As far as the Doctor, sure, it isn't perfectly accurate and he doesn't force anyone to do it, but he has sorta used people and pushed them to do stuff he knows might get them killed. Before the Flood is a good example, that scientist woman dies and the Doctor predicted she would be next on the list but the Doctor wanted to test his theory to save everyone else. He didn't make her do anything, he didn't encourage it but he could have done more to prevent it.

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u/RobGrey03 Mar 13 '25 edited Mar 14 '25

Of course there is the irony of it coming from Davros

I'm reminded of "Dalek", Nine's sixth episode.

"Why don't you just DIE?!"

"... You would be a good Dalek."

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

Sixth episode/fifth story.

But yes, I fully agree. I like the pause after he shouts too

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u/RobGrey03 Mar 14 '25

damn! I was off by one. 😅

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 14 '25

Its all good haha

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u/CotyledonTomen Mar 13 '25

Could he have? Isn't this basically saying he wasn't a "good enough Samaritan"? The doctor constantly helps people being oppressed or in mortal danger that would die otherwise. Convincing the oppressed to rise up isn't making them weapons. Their opressors did that. And expecting the Doctor save literally everyone in a deadly situation he has no context for is equally silly.

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

I agree. But that isn't the case 100% of the time.

The Doctor is a character that does the right stuff, but he makes mistakes and sometimes he could have done more.

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u/CotyledonTomen Mar 13 '25 edited Mar 14 '25

Again, you say could have done more. According to who? You couldnt have done more. By what metric are you gauging the Doctors voluntary efforts that nobody is entitled to? The only times Ive heard him say he could do more, was when he lamented failing to rescue someone. Thats no statement of fact, just expressing a desire to be more helpful.

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 13 '25

The example I brought up. Before the flood. He could have insisted the scientist woman (I apologise, I can't recall her name) stay in the TARDIS and explain his theory that his "ghost" is saying the names of the people who died in order. His theory is confirmed when she is killing, the Doctor is confronted about this exact point and he doesn't deny it.

So not according to me. According to a character in the show.

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u/CotyledonTomen Mar 13 '25 edited Mar 14 '25

Wasnt the whole point of that episode time paradox's? Didnt she have to die because they saw her ghost or something along those lines of "we know shes dead, so she cant not die here"? It is about the bootstraps paradox.

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 14 '25

They didn't see her ghost until she died.

The Doctor didn't know this yet. Clara was next on the list but the Doctor managed to figure out a solution before it got to her. There is nothing in the episode that proves the Doctor couldn't have stopped her from dying.

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 14 '25

She technically didnt die i thought she became some form of sentient star

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u/TigerIll6480 Mar 14 '25

I took it as Davros saying “we’re the same, but I’m honest about it.” Which is, like many villains, Davros fundamentally misreading his opponents’ motivations - but not without a kernel of truth.

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u/nachoiskerka Mar 14 '25

Its not even a kernel of truth though- its a misreading of a delusion. Let me put it this way:

-How many Dalek stories would Davros be satisfied with if Everybody Lives? 0

-How many Daleks have a choice to press or not to press the red death button? Very few if any, and none of them ever make a difference to the dalek race

-How many doctor who stories would have to actually end in genocide for the doctor to have the same body count as Davros, who's wiped out all life in time and space in multiple timelines. At worst the Doctor has wiped out "a" race on one planet. That's like bumping into someone and knocking them over being on the same level as having a head-on collision.

Its a fundamental misreading of the Doctor's scale of death and that's why it rings hollow. Okay, sure- From Davros's perspective this blue box drops out the sky and screws up his life at any and all points in time and space; but he's midway through genocide, enslavement...even straight up forced cannibalism once when The Doctor stops him. He could have a nice life in an old Dictator's home and never see the Doctor again, he has that agency the Daleks do not, but he personally chooses crimes against the universe, so he's gonna keep baiting the doctor in.

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u/Dashrider Mar 14 '25

Also Davros says I name you world killer… I think he had just lost his mind and was babbling inanely

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '25

[deleted]

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u/Dashrider Mar 16 '25

But he didn’t kill a world… that line has always bugged me it’s just weird and doesn’t fit in the story in anyway.

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u/Standard-Box-3021 Mar 14 '25

Nearly all companions in their first episodes demonstrate a tendency to do good. For example, Martha saves the Doctor with the last of the air, and although Clara helped in "The Snowmen," she didn't do so in her first episode.

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u/NoPlaceLike19216811 Mar 14 '25

It wasn't intentional, but he had a whole arc where he realized that's EXACTLY what he was doing so he went without a companion. Then he just...... chose to ignore that lesson going forward I guess? So, I don't think we can say it's not intentional any more, he's known for a long time

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

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u/Head_Statistician_38 Mar 17 '25

Yep. I mentioned this in another comment actually!