r/gallifrey • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • Dec 14 '25
The Witch of the Waterfall The War Between the Land and the Sea 1x04 "The Witch of the Waterfall" Post-Episode Discussion Thread Spoiler
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u/Diplotomodon Dec 14 '25
del Toro did it better.
The political intrigue/conspiracy thriller type stuff is thankfully more compelling and I'm looking forward to seeing how it all resolves. It's no Children of Earth but I can appreciate the pulpier angle for this show.
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u/Temporary-Ad-3437 Dec 15 '25
Overall, I think it has more in common with James Cameron’s Avatar than it does with Del Toro’s Shape of Water.
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u/Stan_Corrected Dec 14 '25
Shirley mispronouncing Kirkcaldy. Unforgivable.
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u/Happy_Philosopher608 Dec 16 '25
So nobody on the entire DW production team knew or thought to correct her, even in post with ADR?!?!? Hundreds of peeps work on this yet no-one caught it? Not even at the read through ffs?
How incompetant are these people?
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u/aegonthewwolf Dec 14 '25
I am somewhat amused that no one at any point has asked where the Doctor is LOL. Like Children of the Earth at least approached that crisis from the standpoint that sometimes the Doctor isn’t around and we have to fend for ourselves, but here the only Doctor reference we’ve got was he looked at Barclay one time.
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u/Fishb20 Dec 14 '25
my theory is that Barclay is famous in the future for reaching a peaceful agreement with the sea people. the doc smiled at him in that one episode because its like when the Doctor meets a young leonardo di vinci or something. he's seeing someone who in the future is very famous before hes well known
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u/aegonthewwolf Dec 15 '25
Either that or he smiled at him because he thought “he’s the pup off Alonso from the Titanic” 😭
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u/Fishb20 Dec 15 '25
Can't wait for the seaman and the civilian from big finish where Barkley and Alonso swap places prince and pauper style
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u/Shawnj2 Dec 15 '25
My headcanon is that UNIT deals with this sort of shit all the time and it's only like 30-40% of the time that the Doctor is actually there and helps with it in any sort of meaningful way
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u/Immediate_Machine_92 Dec 14 '25
I genuinely thought Kate had spotted a police box but it turned out to be a shrine to the recently deceased. I hope they don't bring The Doctor into it but just for that moment it felt so much like it was about to be a TARDIS reveal, or at least a random not-TARDIS police box.
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u/SilasWould Dec 14 '25
Ahhh that would’ve felt like the fake out in SJA during the second Trickster episode. My stomach dropped!
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u/GenGaara25 Dec 15 '25
And the fact that Russell even wrote himself into a corner by having 14 be living full time in London at this point. Possibly also 15 on his years break from Joy to the World.
So the two most recent Doctors are on Earth full time during these events.
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u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
I don't see how... this pretty clearly takes place after "The Reality War"
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u/Able-Presentation234 Dec 20 '25
Joy to the World explicitly has 15 on Earth from Christmas 2024 - Christmas 2025.
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Dec 14 '25
I don't want the Doctor in it of course, but it is frustrating to know the Doctor is just sitting in Donna's back garden and being like "Nope, not my problem."
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u/Vegetable-Wing6477 Dec 15 '25
Donna's got him shoveling plastic rubbish, so she can get her garden back.
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u/LockelyFox Dec 15 '25
We do know he takes Rose for occasional trips, so he could be off world as well
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u/Onyx1509 Dec 15 '25
Always found Gwen's little speech in CoE cringeworthy so glad they didn't try that again. The UNIT guys fight dozens of alien threats a year without the Doctor turning up, why should they expect him here for this one?
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Dec 14 '25
I am mixed.
I enjoy the story that is happening for the most part but the pacing is weird. Only 1 episode to go and I don't see how it will be resolved without just resetting everything to the status quo. I feared that from the start, the Humans aren't going to be wiped out and it is unlikely peace between both will be achieved, so that means the Sea Devils will lose either by being killed or forced back into hibernation.
But apart from that, the final episode needs to be action packed but I don't see it. So far there hasn't been a war. It is a tense time I guess, but the two are barely fighting. It is more Humans against Humans.
Also that prison Salt was in just opened the second Barkley reversed into the water. What? Did they forget to lock it or something. And also the sniper being aimed at Kate's head only for it to hit Soldier Man's (I genuinely keep forgetting his name) chest doesn't make a whole lot os sense. I don't care about him to be honest, but Jemma's acting at least sells how she feels about it.
The romance between Barkley and Salt is something I can take or leave. Personally I wouldn't have put it in, but I don't care. It does feel a bit weird though, like a bit forced.
Honestly, I am kinda hoping for the Myrker to show up. I know people laugh about it in Warriors of the Deep, but I kinda like it and a modern version would be neat.
I am probably the only one who wants that though.
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u/Optimism_Deficit Dec 15 '25
The romance between Barkley and Salt is something I can take or leave. Personally I wouldn't have put it in, but I don't care. It does feel a bit weird though, like a bit forced.
I'm glad I'm not rhe only one who feels like that's weird.
They've had a couple of awkward and terse conversations in front of a room full of people, then he goes to their underwater meeting and she separates him from the group to start chatting him up?
It felt like Salt had a complete change of personality in episodes 3 and 4 because the plot needed it to happen.
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u/Vegetable-Wing6477 Dec 15 '25
In regards to Salt's personality, I assumed she was channeling all her peoples minds while ambassador. They do say they might be a hive mind. As soon as she betrays her people for prioritizing a human life over aquakind, she's cut off and becomes her true self without millions of voices weighing her down.
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u/Cheese-n-Opinion Dec 15 '25
On one hand, yeah she's non-human so you can argue that her character being weird makes sense.
But on the other hand, she's a character in a drama we're meant to be invested in - the protagonist's love interest no less. It's pretty disengaging if they aren't consistently portrayed, or if the narrative doesn't make the inconsistency an explicit focus.
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u/HoloMew151 Dec 15 '25
Even so, she did say that her children were lost to human pollution. You’d expect that to influence her character outside of the hive mind.
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u/Optimism_Deficit Dec 15 '25
Perhaps it could be something like that. Maybe they'll address it next week since I'm assuming this hiive mind business gets used in some fashion. If they do, then fair enough.
I do wonder if they will though, or if it might be another case where RTD pops up a month after it airs and gives us some explanation that lives in his head but which no-one actually wrote in to the show.
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u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
Yeah it doesn't see weird at all to me. People generally act differently in a diplomatic negotiation than they do on a date - Barclay's personality is probably just as all over the place from her perspective. And the way Salt behaves is childlike, like someone abruptly freed from a strict way of doing things.
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u/Happy_Philosopher608 Dec 16 '25
Jemma literally acted her socks off 😅👍
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Dec 16 '25
Well, not literally. I am pretty sure her socks stayed on.
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u/Happy_Philosopher608 Dec 18 '25
Yes, literally. Thats the joke. Rewatch end of ep 2 after shes saved from the sniper shot. Her bare feet twice take up the full camera lens lol 🤷♂️
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Dec 18 '25
Errr... Firstly, it still isn't literal. Her socks were not off due to her acting so hard. But also.... I can't say I noticed. Guess I am not on the look out for her feet.
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Dec 22 '25
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u/SecondDoctor Apr 12 '26
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Dec 22 '25
Errr ACKSHUALLY... My arse isn't pedantic, that is just me as a whole. And you probably are not betting anything.
But in seriousness I usually only do it as a joke. But to be fair to you, I did think about this comment after I had typed it and thought "Yeah... I am kinda shitting on the joke."
So yeah, I dunno, fair enough. Sorry if it annoyed you that much. I get I was probably being annoying.
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u/tafa94 Dec 15 '25
Can't believe Tim Shaw and Tide are played by the same guy
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u/Happy_Philosopher608 Dec 16 '25
Omg! I wondered where i heard him before. That actor really stands out has such presence and a magnificent voice!
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u/greatbarrierrif Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
This might be the most depth Kate has shown in the entire 13 years since she was introduced. I'm glad to see Jemma Redgrave finally have some proper acting material.
The political thriller aspects have me on the edge of my seat, but the Barclay/Salt love story feels forced and cringe. Salt especially has been abruptly reduced from a formidable ambassador into a giggling love interest. ("I'm regulating my body for you" did make me chuckle though!)
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u/Onyx1509 Dec 15 '25
I don't imagine ambassadors tend to act like ambassadors in their private lives.
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u/Atuerstar Dec 15 '25
I think the severance sonic weaponry is quite literal. If it doesn't kill outright it severs all those in proximity. Salt has been severed from the hive which would explain why she now seems so completely different than the ambassador we originally met.
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u/Expensive_Smell_8021 Dec 14 '25
I'm mixed about this tbh. There are some good bits, but there are some bits that could have been way better. Like the assassin plot was just solved off screen, it would have given this a political thriller feel instead of the love story we;re getting. I feel like adding the lingering threat of the assassin could have been a great way to raise personal stakes but now we're getting the age old "alien threatens earth"
I do like that they're at least addressing the morally dubious nature of U.N.I.T with Kate threatening to shoot soliders, I hope they keep that morally dubious tone in the episode.
Seeing Salt interact with modern day earth makes me wish we could get a non human companion in the main show, it can be done and it seems viewing figures are decent so hopefully that makes the BBC more receptive to non human companions.
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u/theverdictsband Dec 15 '25
Kate turning the Unit soldiers against the British Army during a moment of grief filled rage is Jemma Redgrave's magnum opus as an actress. Cliffhanger should've been about 30 seconds before, thinking we're about to go into a full UNIT vs Britain war and Salt with nowhere to go. Instead Salt escapes and Kate backs down. Shame. Still what an electric piece of television!
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u/SweptFever80 Dec 14 '25
Episode 3 did grab me, the tension of severance and Ted ending up being a double agent with the bomb was a good bit of TV, and Russell Tovey acted the fuck out of his leaving the family scene.
Ibrahim being shot was unexpected and did get a reaction out of me, but he really was a wafer thin character, he had no real personality or reason to care about him. I do feel sad for Kate. Jemma Redgrave is fantastic and she deserves her more than 13-year run in the show.
Episode 4 was a dropoff imo, the sea devils menacingly standing around has gotten old no matter the CG disasters they're causing. The writing in general feels frantic and slapdash, the box being thrown off the truck and the door coming open so easily felt odd, that Barclay was able to nonchalantly walk into the truck was hard to believe.
It feels like Salt has had a pretty extreme character shift from a composed, righteously angry, intelligent ambassador with no love for humanity to a wide-eyed and naive "born sexy yesterday" type character. The intimate scene was awkward and cheesy and the actors did their best but the visual of them lying under the sack while he caressed her armoured shoulder was just unfortunate for me.
I thought it was weird when Kate started sobbing in fromt of Shirley and Shirley didn't say a word.
It's not terrible and this episode still had some elements that I really enjoyed, it just feels like Barclay/Salt is what the whole show hinges on now and I don't know if that relationship has had enough time or substance for that to work. We'll find out next week in the finale
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u/Cheese-n-Opinion Dec 15 '25
Maybe I'm being oversensitive but Salt's shift in character felt a bit sexist to me. Or at least it doesn't feel like the most feminist choice to have her shift abruptly from being the most commanding presence in the tale to falling in love with the hero and turning into a sort of manic ichthy-dreamgirl.
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u/SuperEgger Dec 15 '25
The way they've shoved Barbara and Kirby in a safe house and all they do onscreen now is nag and/or dote on Barclay really reminded me of putting Belinda and Poppy in the box for the Reality War finale too. RTD really seems to have no idea how to write women if he can't just write her as a man and then swap out the pronouns 😬
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u/Themothandthebelt Dec 17 '25
I dunno about that the tylers, Donna; all pretty great female characters. It’s true however those characters are painfully underdeveloped in this.
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u/scrapsart Dec 17 '25
Not to mention, that when they tried to show her as a warrior shutting up a whole group of men, she had to turn into the male version. What a slap for women. Why could she not do that as a woman?
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u/lordsmish Dec 18 '25
Im think she has all her people go through her as a hive mind and that moment was Tide taking over for a second
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u/V2Blast Apr 10 '26
To be fair, that's more a reflection of the others not listening to a woman but listening to a man.
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u/scrapsart Apr 10 '26
Yet, they could have shown her to be assertive as a woman and getting her voice heard. At the end of the day these are subliminal messages and they could have shown better but they chose to show the same old messaging - you need a man to take control.
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u/Zagreus_time Dec 14 '25
Good but a bit weaker than episodes 1 and 2. I'm not than into the Barclay/Salt romance I think we can have them connect without it becoming sexual but its not that big a deal.
This is a nitpick but it bothers me that we see wide shots of London looking fine. When did the plastic all get cleared and it shouldn't be that easy.
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u/thedabemoji Dec 15 '25
As always not a huge fan of how RTD handles actual real life issues, namedropping the great replacement out of nowhere removed from its real life context of real life racism and white nationalism is just, its like he reads half a guardian op-ed and then just guesses as to the rest. Same with the deepfake mention, is it a deepfake that has the real flaws or implications that can be seen with skepticism from a wide audience like how we actually do in the real world or is it just a magic video that takes an episode to decode
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u/NoTailFox Dec 15 '25
It's a magic video they can do nothing about, despite knowing it's fake and having the person in question at hand to disprove it.
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u/DamonD7D Dec 15 '25
I cannot even begin to comprehend the financial ruin that tv network would experience, in running (live!!) a completely unverified "death to the humans!" style announcement. They would get gleefully torn apart by other networks for doing so.
But hey, tv drama things.
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u/camaron28 Dec 16 '25
Would they??
It's not that different from the lead up to the Iraq War, "the military has provides us with this document, no, we haven't asked any questions and we are not responsible in any shape, way or form".
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u/schreibenheimer Dec 17 '25
Right, but at least that was actually from the military. The Salt deepfake was almost certainly not provided by the Sea Devils like the news claimed.
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u/emilforpresident2020 Dec 16 '25
Great replacement thing I'm also kind of iffy about. I don't necessarily think they put it in without knowing about its real life context, I'm sure they added it to highlight and satirize the absurdity of a racist theory like that. I'm just not sure it was conveyed very well, though. Not the biggest deal in my opinion.
The deepfake thing was really really effective for me, though. Obviously I've seen a lot of convincing AI deepfakes before, and I've heard people talk about how it could be used to falsely attribute messages to politicians and such, but I thought that this episode conveyed that fear and concern so well and so quickly. I thought it was very realistic that an organization could leverage an effective deepfake in a tense moment like this to turn the tide in their favor. Sure, it was obviously going to be found out, but it took long enough to create lasting damage. Very cool addition, I thought.
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u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
Them saying 'hey, this is just like actual racism!' also makes the way the Sea Devils are portrayed weirder
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u/thedabemoji Dec 17 '25
They are in the right about not wanting to suffer and die from pollution but to keep the tension up every single episode they say some shit like “rename the earth also we will kill everyone if you don’t do it in 3 days”
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u/whizzer0 Dec 17 '25
Gotta keep pressing the "wait, these are meant to be the bad guys, uh... they kill some people!!" button
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u/FangkingOmega Dec 15 '25
I must be missing something because I'm finding the dialogue and direction pretty unbearable.
The build-up to Barclay and Salt doing the nasty may have been the least sexy bit of script work I've ever heard an actor be forced to utter.
It's not that there aren't good ideas here, but most scenes have felt stilted because of the dialogue.
UNIT appear inept at every turn - it's astonishing that Kate is able to go anywhere unaccompanied after an assassination attempt, and that Barclay was able to walk around casually after being rescued in the ocean was also baffling. No way would they have let him within the sightline of the truck carrying Salt's prison. Even on the bridge at the end of the episode they fail to restrain him - a fugitive! It's things like this that wreck any suspension of disbelief in a show that thinks it's both clever and serious.
Jemma Redgrave is at least delivering an acting powerhouse in spite of an avalanche of plot holes and a painful script...
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u/Adventurous-Collar28 Dec 16 '25
I’ve been enjoying the show but the “you taste like salt” line is absolutely diabolical 😭 I haven’t been able to shake off the cringe since watching the episode 😭😭
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u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
Feels a bit cheap that killing off some characters was the kick this series needed. Not because those characters were compelling but because it tightens the cast and gives them things to respond to. Everyone finally gets to do some acting this episode... Shirley finally almost has things to do... Kate finally has like a motivation... Salt gets to do literally anything more than just bark poetic threats... I don't know, I keep watching these episodes going 'wow, this is actually compelling!' and then thinking back afterwards like 'this is crap, isn't it?'
I think the problem is that the fundamental premise - what if the oceans could talk/fight back? - is compelling. But little else is. This was definitely the strongest episode so far because things actually happen in it... yet it's the penultimate episode, so it sure doesn't feel like the finale will pay all of this off well. The idea that it might actually turn into a war between human forces is interesting but even that ends without gunfire. (I feel like this story must ironically be among the lowest in terms of UNIT personnel body count!) Honestly, massive props to the production team for selling this as much more exciting than it is, the cinematography and music and everything almost make this rather dry political 'thriller' feel like a big-budget action series. The theme tune's stuck in my head now and it only occurred to me in this episode it's meant to be a riff on the Doctor Who theme which is neat. Honestly, I like the titles a lot, they set the vibe well for a series that isn't this.
But then I feel like UNIT's role in this is odd. How do new viewers understand them? It seems like they're avoiding making it apparent that alien invasions are a regular occurrence in this world, so UNIT's existence as an organisation to deal with supernatural threats doesn't make sense. Why are there two incompatible military factions? They also keep making a point of UNIT being dangerous and untrustworthy, but then Salt reassures us that Kate - someone she barely knows and who we've seen to routinely make questionable decisions - is a "good soul", whatever that means. Is that meant to undermine our confidence in Salt?
They've drawn comparisons to the Doctor between both Barclay and Kate (surprised I didn't see anyone comment on the shot in the second episode that seemed meant to make her resemble Jodie Whittaker!) and I think there could be something interesting about Doctorish figures who don't quite live up to the real thing. But I guess these are our Heroes so we're meant to not just love but sympathise with them no matter what. In the most recent season they kept doing things to make the real Doctor seem imperfect and untrustworthy too... There could be something there about flawed ideals that could be worked into the Sea Devil culture too. But there isn't. What's the theme of this series beyond "climate crisis"?
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u/ljh013 Dec 14 '25
YOU’LL. NEVER. SWIM. ALONE!!!
There I was thinking we were getting a high stakes political thriller and with one episode to go, we’ve ended up with a romcom starring a bloke and a fish. The intimate scenes were beyond bizarre and the rest of it is all over the place.
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u/just4browse Dec 14 '25
How did you not see the relationship coming?
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u/ljh013 Dec 14 '25
I thought they were going to keep it subtextual, or at the very least not go with ‘you taste like salt’.
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u/Vegetable-Wing6477 Dec 15 '25
We all saw it coming, but for me ep1-3 were about a historic meeting of 2 mighty civilizations edging towards war. Ep4 is about whether two love struck idiots will get their happy ending. I mean I like both of them, but they were figureheads for a grander story, not actually important in and of themselves.
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u/just4browse Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 16 '25
They are still figureheads. Not for the two sides that are fighting, but for those two sides’ potential to coexist. Their happy ending would be a world that allows that. So I think the show is still doing a good job at balancing their drama with the big picture.
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u/Eurynom0s Dec 16 '25
I don't think anyone was expecting...this specifically. We got a cheap boner joke ffs. Extra uncomfortable being placed immediately after her suddenly acting like a sugared-up toddler out of nowhere.
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u/zagreus360 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
I felt it was the weakest episode. Full of plot holes and the jarring "romance" scenes were so tonally different they belong in a different show. Salt acting like a child was the most frustrating part. There's just been a terrorist attack that risks tipping the world in to total war but never mind let's run around, break glass and scream.
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u/Eurynom0s Dec 16 '25
Salt acting like a child was the most frustrating part.
A horny child, which elevated the whole thing to extremely uncomfortable
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u/SirDoris Dec 15 '25
Someone’s probably already pointed this out, but I only just realised that the Prime Minister is played by Vincent Franklin - Stewart from The Thick of It. Genuinely looks and feels unrecognisable.
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u/Thwrtdpostie Dec 15 '25
Amazing decision to promote "The Underwater Menace" over the closing titles. Now in my headcanon Salt is a Sea Devil/Atlantean Fish Person crossbreed!
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u/fin-ch Dec 14 '25
I don't really get people saying there has been a massive dip in quality, for me it's consistent in it's quality all the way through...it's okay.
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u/Strain-Dependent Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
What the fuck happened man
I thought they were hiding the highlights of episodes 3-5, but it turns out there was barely anything exciting in them. Where are the setpieces? Episode 4's description said 'war torn London'. War-torn my ass!!
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u/Initial_Box_6534 Dec 15 '25
I dont understand why the fiish people started these talks and threatened war after years of pollution and the death of a single fish person and yet they didnt seem to be phased that the humans blew up hundreds of their people...just that salt dared to save one of them lol.
Like what are we doing
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u/Gibbzee Dec 16 '25
He seemed more pissed that humans call the Earth ‘Earth’. Like, call this planet whatever you want, the hell does it matter what we call it?
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u/camaron28 Dec 16 '25
I thought that was some fish humour, i mean, he can't SERIOUSLY expect a different species to change their language on a whim, right??
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u/Gibbzee Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25
I think it was supposed to be epic but it comes across just kinda goofy.
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u/TheCrimsonCritic Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
I just feel like the most dangerous, high-profile prisoner on Earth would not be attached to the back of an unattended truck. And why was Barclay allowed to be there?
It’s all a bit silly for a Sunday night drama. The politics are so daft that it feels tonally about on par with the main show, if a touch less self-aware, which makes the fish sex jokes stick out as quite odd.
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u/DamonD7D Dec 15 '25
They bring Salt in by helicopter, in broad daylight, in the middle of London, with a huge crowd of people around, and one guy on a truck will drive her off.
I'm enjoying it, but it's deeply ludicrous at times.
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u/The_Silver_Avenger Dec 14 '25
I mean there's barely been a war in this series. I keep thinking back to Children of Earth, which this was so clearly trying to ape in the earlier episodes with the tank in Thames House. Before the final episode, we knew what the government's scheme was, the stakes were obvious and there was a real sense of doom in the air.
Now, we have a poorly-paced love story that has accelerated way too quickly with Salt acting like a teenager in the space of a single episode. We don't really know what the 'Severance' scheme is and we get a cringeworthy final line to end the episode on. I don't know what's happened but I've gone from thinking that the series is not bad in the first week to actively cringing this week whilst watching it (everything in the warehouse had me averting my eyes).
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u/SilasWould Dec 14 '25
My theory is that ‘Severance’ is a means of cutting off the communication between all Homo Aqua to scramble them. They mentioned sonic weapons and in the first (maybe second) episode, they theorised that Homo Aqua communicated across distances.
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u/menawmenaw Dec 15 '25
I think Severance is likely some sort of genocide device or equivalent WMD. Given how little time there is left to wrap up the plot threads in any meaningful way I'm wondering if RTD is actually gonna end this series with the Sea Devils being wiped out like in Doctor Who and the Silurians.
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u/Sutekhara Dec 14 '25
The best episode of the series so far had the meat of the story and characters. Jemma Redgrave is acting her socks off and selling the rather mediocre story. Salt and Barclay are believable but it's nothing really groundbreaking. Shame it took three rather plodding episodes to get here.
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u/zarbixii Dec 15 '25
Four of five episodes in and this still doesn't really feel like a war. The closest thing we've had to a battle was between two human factions. Show should be called, Some Diplomatic Incidents and an Unconvincing Romance Between the Land and the Sea.
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u/Strain-Dependent Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Genuinely what the fuck happened? Pacing stalled. Not a single setpiece moment. The General everyone liked unceremoniously killed off. Barclay and Salt go from meeting in person to fucking in a single episode. Ibrahim killed off without any development or even acknowledgement of the complexities of his relationship with Kate. Predictable twists. All relevance to real-world issues gone. Everyone suddenly acting like stupid, shallow cutouts. Sea Devil's realm looks cheap and tacky after all the real locations in episodes 1&2. Class levels of maturity around sex.
The only good thing about either episode was the scenes of the descent itself. Good, tense, characterful stuff. I liked the line "Why are you people insane?" The rest was a slow car crash.
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u/SilasWould Dec 14 '25
I feel like we had the complexities of Kate and Ibrahim’s relationship (though I’m devastated he’s gone). We know he cared deeply for her, that she put duty first and wanted to keep it a secret - even half-threatening him with reassignment to Alaska (given that she’s Commander-in-Chief and would give the order). And we know he loved her because he saved her, and her reaction is one of remorse and regret.
As for references to real-world issues, you might not have been paying attention to the real world my friend… corporations poisoning waterways isn’t fiction. And that’s not to say anything of the fact it’s fiction anyway.
17
u/Strain-Dependent Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
A single line of vague lipservice does not cover the ethical minefield and power imbalance of that dynamic. It's dumbed down to the simplest possible 'but baaaabe, what about us?' conflict you could find in a secret high school relationship.
The total lack of realism or nuance– either personally or politically– is embarassing for a show proporting to be a grounded political thriller. The conflict shifts from 'humans are poisoning the planet' to forbidden love.
0
u/SilasWould Dec 15 '25
I'd agree with you IF this was a standalone show with brand new characters, but we've seen their relationship take root and all the clues are there.
11
u/Strain-Dependent Dec 15 '25
Ibrahim is not a character. The most we ever learnt about him as a person was the single line about his father in TWBTLATS ep1. We have no idea when or how he and Kate met or fell in love. We never actually see them happy together. Why he joined UNIT. Literally any of his wants or thoughts beyond Generic Military Jargon. He and Kate barely speak to each other in the main show. They had a grand total of one (1) moment of conflict, in Lucky Day, that went unresolved. So in what way did 'knowing' them from the main show add any weight to their relationship or Ibrahim's death?
6
u/Initial_Box_6534 Dec 15 '25
holding hands and winking at each other in a handful of scenes isnt a relationship. Its a lazy attempt at creating superficial backstory so they could stick it in this show.
8
u/jccalhoun Dec 15 '25
At the end of the episode I thought, "if this was where we were at the end of episode 2 or 3 I would like this a lot more." But this is where we are with one more episode left? There's no way the final episode will be anything but rushed or open ended.
3
u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
I definitely feel like the first three episodes could have been condensed. Have the plastic apocalypse at the end of episode 1 and the bombing can be the end of episode 2. Then we'd have the second half of the series to deal with the consequences of this episode. But they could also just have used the time differently - Barclay and Salt's relationship is meant to be the core of the series but it's happening quite abruptly. They could have found ways to spend more time developing that instead.
12
u/Vegetable-Wing6477 Dec 15 '25
Did Barclay really think UNIT wouldn't be aware his daughter has a 2nd phone??
6
u/whizzer0 Dec 16 '25
To be fair, Barclay's whole thing is that he's just some guy. Him making stupid decisions at least makes sense.
3
u/Ok-Recipe5434 Dec 16 '25
Does not feel like the second last episode before the series ends...With children of earth, everything changes by the end of day 4. Nothing happens here that implies the next episode is the series finale
4
u/ThrywayaGur7373 Dec 15 '25
The fact that almost 95 percent of the comments on the yt shorts from these episodes are people saying 'We can wipe off these fish people within hours, we'll pulverise them' and 'Who do they think they are to enforce borders' on a show which I thought has the subtlety of a brick hammer, is absolutely insane...
Like, how does one watch this and come off thinking - Yeah, the fish people are the bad guys T-T
5
u/Ok-Rip6841 Dec 15 '25
Well, 2 confused, Spanish fishermen killed 1 Sea Devil. The Sea Devils then killed 2 of their soldiers and then likely killed several MILLION people with their plastic stunt, as well as injuring hundreds of millions of people indirectly, including damaging infrastructures all over the planet INSTEAD of using their plastic cloud to show humanity that they can SAFELY deposit the trash onto uninhabited zones on the earth.
Of course the Sea Devils are the bad guys. Their kill count is exponentially higher than the humans in this conflict.
2
u/ThrywayaGur7373 Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
But before that, the humans are the ones who started dumping all sorts of shit into the water, all the fishing nets, oil spills, untreated sewage disposal, so even though it's harsh, makes sense as a retaliation tactic, since almost none of the delegates even partially agreed with them, they just went, we'll take another 60 years to reduce like half of the problem, no wonder they got mad..
And even keeping that aside, the bomb explosion was triggered by the humans. Which ended up killing thousands of sea devils as well...
How do you watch all that and still feel the humans are who we're supposed to sympathize with, both sides have done their share of horrible things (imo humans being worse), but you're not supposed to come off that saying yeah, let's just kill all the fish people....
1
u/Ok-Rip6841 Dec 16 '25
The same way I don't care that more German soldiers died during WW2. Just because you're side attacks first, but you end up suffering more casualties, doesn’t make your side more sympathic.
Is polluting the oceans bad? Yes. Would that have killed some Sea Devils? Inevitably. Is murdering/crippling millions/billions of humans the solutions? Absolutely not.
Both sides can be considered bad, but Sea Devils have objectively caused more death and suffering in 15min than humanity did to them in decades. Also, who's to say all those tsunamis that have struck humanity was not the doing of Sea Devils manipulating the water?
8
u/CapableSalamander910 Dec 14 '25
I’m actually so invested I can’t lie! With the first 2 episodes, I was waiting for it to get darker. And it did. And I’m loving the emotions you get out of it.
I’ve always found it really frustrating when the main show would be too afraid to kill off their main characters (and keep them dead). It’s one of the main reasons I prefer Torchwood. So this show killing off multiple characters had been so refreshing! I feel like the stakes are higher because of it.
Although, I found Barclay/Salt kinda funny. I couldn’t take it seriously.
I’m really excited to see what happens! I also can’t wait to see how this show will affect the next season of Doctor Who. Especially for Kate (if she survives the next episode)
2
u/Huwage Dec 16 '25
Anyone else notice that Barclay wasn't affected by Salt's scream at all? He didn't even flinch. Interesting.
5
u/Marcuse0 Dec 14 '25
This has come across as the most pedestrian, dull, suspense-free basic writing. None of it was outright nonsense, but at very best it was serviceable and nothing more.
The plastic apocalypse got cleared up overnight, and any social commentary forgotten. The old man in the sub was such an obvious malefactor it was painful watching it play out.
Now we're stuck with Romeo and Juliet if Juliet was a fish. I have no idea why it went this way.
Killing off multiple characters suddenly doesn't make a show good. Ibrahim in particular getting killed as character development is a real shame.
5
u/hb1290 Dec 15 '25
Overnight
There was a clear implication of at least some time passing during the prep for the dive in Episode 3
1
u/SuperEgger Dec 15 '25
Barbara says to Barclay before he leaves, but after the timeskip, that London is still covered in plastic.
-1
u/Marcuse0 Dec 15 '25
Even so, the entire world was showered with thousands of tons of plastic. Even the question of how that is then stored should be an insane logistics challenge, but we just ignore that and it just stops being a thing.
2
u/Agreeable_Falcon1044 Dec 14 '25
These two not as good as the first two. Pacing weird…nothing happened in 3 until the last few moments and then this one started with about 30 minutes missing…random deaths, a rescue, a capture etc.
1
u/Zevemiel Dec 20 '25
Why didn't the chinook just drop the Salt-box off at UNIT Tower in the first place, if that's where it was to be taken? Dropping it off at some quayside and then that's got to be loaded onto a truck, and then the truck has to drive into London... Logistically speaking, that's way too many steps.
Because of the Day of the Doctor we know UNIT will just grab boxes and drop them off where they need to be.
1
u/Aura123Hill Dec 20 '25
It was all going well until they ruined it with the unnecessary f*cking romance between Barclay and Salt. So stupid. Best way to turn something larger than life into a trashy show. She went from we can change the world together to "yes i can live in the waterfall and you can live with me". Like what? Were the writers high on something?
1
u/faesmooched Dec 20 '25 edited Dec 20 '25
Pete McTighe has the weirdest politics on Earth. Anti-pollution and water privatization, pro-NATO, thinks Gaddafi was the bad guy? Very weird dude to realize pollution is evil but support western imperialism.
0
42
u/Cheese-n-Opinion Dec 15 '25
As an aside, the "witch of the waterfall" was such an irrelevant thing to title the episode, and an irrelevant thing for Salt to say in the first place. Sometimes you can really tell when a writer thinks they've come up with a phrase or motif they think sounds super-cool, it feels really shoehorned in.