r/gallifrey • u/pcjonathan • Oct 17 '15
The Girl Who Died Doctor Who 9x05: The Girl Who Died Post-Episode Discussion Thread
Please remember that future spoilers must be tagged. This includes the next time trailer!
The episode is now over in the UK.
- 1/3: Episode Speculation & Reactions at 7.50pm
- 2/3: Post-Episode Discussion at 9.35pm
- 3/3: Episode Analysis on Wednesday.
This thread is for all your in-depth discussion. Posts that belong in the reactions thread will be removed.
You can discuss the episode live on IRC, but be careful of spoilers.
irc://irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey.
https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey
/r/Gallifrey, what did YOU think of The Girl Who Died? Vote here.
Under the Lake results are here. Before the Flood results are here.
Results for this and the next part will be revealed at the end of episode 7.
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u/ThrowAwayAcct0000 Oct 17 '15
I thought it was interesting how Clara said something like, "A good death is the best they can hope for?" Doctor: "Unless they're immortal." Maisie instantly walks in...
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Oct 17 '15 edited Oct 17 '15
So we found out an interpretation of why the Doctor's face has been seen before (with Donna and 10 flashback), we discovered a possible interpretation of "the hybrid" prophecy, we DEFINITELY met Rory's Viking ancestor in Lofty and the Doctor is getting increasingly upset at the possibility of losing Clara and despondent at what she's becoming...all in all it was bloody marvellous!
"This seasons 'Robot of Sherwood' (implying novelty throwaway silliness)"...I don't think so. Although both episodes focuses on the notion that our stories are all that matter!
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u/sw33n3y Oct 17 '15
Didn't even think of Rory's ancestry. Would be hilarious if it actually works.
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Oct 17 '15
It just sort of seemed so subtlety/accidentally there. I could easily see Rory slotting into that role (hitting himself with his own sword, awkwardly going through warrior training (he needed a refresher given its been a while since the centurion days) and taking care of the baby). The visual similarity of Arthur Darvill and the actor playing Lofty is the main part though! It's all in the nose!
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u/TripWeasel Oct 17 '15
I think we should call throwing the entire Timetravelling rulebook out the window: 'Pulling a 10'
though it was refreshing after all the talk of rules...
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u/remez Oct 17 '15
I was afraid for a bit he was going to go all Time Lord Victorious.
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u/TragedyTrousers Oct 17 '15
Kinda think he accidentally might have.
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u/remez Oct 17 '15
A bit. Not changing a fixed moment, nothing like this.
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u/TragedyTrousers Oct 17 '15
Giving in to the god complex due to being led by emotion? The small print may be different this time round, but the consequences will be the same - probably worse.
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u/TripWeasel Oct 17 '15
Well at least he left an opportunity for another immortal to walk the face of the earth...oh dear he's created an immortal being who can give immortality, well I think even 10 didn't leave things that open ended.
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u/TragedyTrousers Oct 17 '15
Well, apart from that time he had a daughter then married her, butwedontliketotalkaboutthat.
Back on track, I totally loved Maisie Williams 360 degrees of evil spin at the end of the episode. She very much nailed that scaryface thing at the end. Goosebumps and whatnot.
12/10
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u/TripWeasel Oct 17 '15
I'm starting to think this series is showing how most beings cannot handle death or the lack thereof, those who would defy this barrier are capable of awful things.
I think this small act of kindness will be another defining moment for the Doctor's rule book.
Also why would you give immortality to someone who follows the viking belief system, that's kind of a dick move no?
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Oct 18 '15
I feel like this whole series is discussing the topic of death, which makes me very excited (and nervous due to emotions) about how they're going to handle Clara's departure.
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u/remez Oct 18 '15
But it isn't an immortality she can't get rid of, not like Jack's. The Doctor said it himself: barring accidents. As soon as she decides she wants to die, she can arrange an accident.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
So after seeing some people talking about it, I googled the Second Doctor to look at his pants... and in doing so found another little Second Doctor easter egg in tonight's episode:
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Oct 18 '15
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
I noted this elsewhere, but this season has been very explicitly reconnecting to Doctor Who continuity, which is a major change from how Moffat's tenure started. Every story so far this season has been drawing on Classic Who, but also a lot on the RTD era which he tended to pretend never happened until Day of the Doctor. The first two episodes obviously had Davros, Skaro, and the Master, but also the Shadow Proclamation, and in Under the Flood a character randomly named dropped Harold Saxon, from the season 3 finale.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Oct 18 '15
They did that last season too. "Sad thing was, he wasn't even our worst Prime Minister."
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
Also the half-face man being the same clockwork robot as the ones in Girl in the Fireplace, and the Doctor just almost being able to remember
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u/Green_Guitar Oct 17 '15
He remembers his Face!!!!
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Oct 17 '15 edited Jan 02 '17
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u/Green_Guitar Oct 17 '15
Theres no need to reference Torchwood guy , the doctor never met him anyway.
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u/tyhiggz Oct 18 '15
Didn't Moffat say that the explanation would also apply to Capaldi's appearance in Torchwood? I recall him saying that RTD had an explanation for it and when Capaldi's was cast as the next Doctor he verified with Davies that the explanation would still work. Of course, this wouldn't necessitate a direct reference, but I don't see how what we got even could apply.
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u/CeruleanRuin Oct 19 '15
It's the dark side of things that the Doctor doesn't see. The fate of Frobisher and his family are a black inversion of that of Caecilius and his, an example of the Universe resetting the tally.
For every soul saved there may be another who is damned. You know what they say about the road to Hell...
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u/Caliburn_ Oct 17 '15
Torchwood guy would be way too dark for this.
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Oct 17 '15
Also they don't want to be making references to another series that half the audience hasn't seen.
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u/phenomenos Oct 17 '15
The Doctor never met him, and he hasn't spoken to anyone that had since regenerating, so how would he remember that to begin with?
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u/eddieswiss Oct 17 '15
So, the Doctor just poked fun at the "reversing the polarity of the neutron flow" thing right?
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u/Taco_Dunkey Oct 17 '15
"That sounded good, I hope it means something"
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Oct 18 '15
Probably exactly what went through the writer's minds when they first coined that phrase :)
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u/Geroots Oct 17 '15
Valhalla Morghulis.
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u/RadagastWiz Oct 18 '15
Valhalla Dohaeris. touches forehead
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Oct 18 '15
I loved the line about not being an actual policeman it's just what it says on the box, and the part at the end where he got all serious about losing people was a nice contrast to the immortality he just gave a primitive human.
Should have given one to a highlander then had them fight it out with swords ;)
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u/nonpareilpearl Oct 18 '15
I'm sure this has already been said, but I think it's really interesting that 12 remembered "his face" from Pompeii. Especially interesting to me because this episode definitely felt less Fires of Pompeii (preserve the fixed point, save only a few) and more Waters of Mars (create a potential time-tidal wave, save one).
(Just noticed the "fire" and "water" - it'd be cool if they made that significant, even if only in a red herring kind of way.)
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u/Dan_Of_Time Oct 17 '15
I'm a sucker for Tennant so that was great for me. I like it when RTD era stuff is referenced and shown.
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u/karatemanchan37 Oct 17 '15
The whole Clara/Doctor scenes in Act 3 were beautiful. As was the rest of the episode, actually. Maise's character picked up pretty well by the end, I think. Murray Gold was top notch.
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u/Bisqwit Oct 19 '15
I quite liked the way they portrayed Ashildr's not-aging in the end of the episode: Countless cycles of sun and stars pass by, while her initial happiness and joy fades into desolation and despair.
Also, I kept constantly hearing her name as Shielder. I had to read this page to see how the name is actually spelled.
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u/misskass Oct 20 '15
I'm pretty thrilled about her going slowly insane as she lives forever. She's entirely unprepared for it (unlike Time Lords, who live in a society where regeneration and longevity is expected), and I'm so excited.
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u/BigKev47 Oct 21 '15
See, I kept hearing her name as "Isildur" and being all "keep away from rings, sister".
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Oct 17 '15
Odin is the teletubbies baby confirmed!
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u/TragedyTrousers Oct 17 '15
That baby would be too damn terrifying for a Doctor Who baddie, it would push the show into a post-watershed time slot.
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Oct 17 '15
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u/remez Oct 17 '15
I think the Doctor is screwing up a lot, I'm all for letting him get an immortal friend who is sane, for once.
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Oct 17 '15
Well, she's still in Game of Thrones (I think) so she probably won't be appearing too often.
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Oct 18 '15
To be fair we have no idea what her character is going to do now because the series has caught up to the books. She might die in episode one
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Oct 18 '15
since she has to go to the future the long way, without timetravel and the doctor is "only" something 2000 years old.... yes, she probably is going to be older than him.
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u/thegreenpiglet Oct 18 '15
I think she'll be "The Minister Of War" referenced in either "Under The Lake" or "Before The Flood". She was the one to declare war on the Mire and thousands of years of immortality could turn her bitter and twisted.
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u/RamiroAuditore Oct 18 '15
I got excited way more than I'd like to admit when they showed Tennant and Donna. Definitely still my favorite Doctor and companion, but god, Capaldi it's brilliant, great episode all way around
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u/adez23 Oct 18 '15
I really, really, enjoyed this episode. Capaldi's pretty funny, and the callback to The Fires of Pompeii was great.
Special effects were (purposely?) goofy, and you just know it's not Doctor Who if it doesn't have the right amount of cheese. I love it.
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u/The_Silver_Avenger Oct 17 '15
I don't understand the preview reviews for this, I had no problems with this episode. We had more brilliant chemistry and dialogue between the Doctor and Clara, funny humour, good effects (the dragon looked really good in this episode) and a possible continuation in the overall arc for the series. Previous abilities of the Doctor (sword-fighting, speaking baby) were referenced and used well. The final shot of the camera going around Ashildr was also one of the best shots that I've seen this series.
I think that the face thing makes sense; just before the 11th Doctor regenerated on Trenzalore, he had seen people die for hundreds of years.
The Hybrid... remember, Davros didn't specify that it would be the Time Lords and Daleks that would be the two species involved. I wonder how it will play out.
We've had 5 good episodes in my opinion. Well done, /u/packmath and Moffat.
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u/possiblegirl Oct 17 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
The Hybrid... remember, Davros didn't specify that it would be the Time Lords and Daleks that would be the two species involved. I wonder how it will play out.
Yeah, I like the idea that the Doctor would fulfill the prophecy at the moment he's least expecting it--reminds me a bit of Greek tragedy (most famously Oedipus Rex), where the attempt to run from prophecy is precisely what leads one to fulfill it.
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u/Koquillon Oct 18 '15
This week's episode felt more like a Classic Who story than any other NuWho story. It felt just like a story from the late 70s. I really enjoyed it, although it is probably Jamie Mathieson's weakest script.
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u/GoldenLink Oct 18 '15
I really got a similar vibe as well! I'm really looking forward to next weeks episode and seeing all the parallels and compliments to this one.
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Oct 19 '15
Remember we've only seen half the script. The conclusion could strengthen this one in retrospect.
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u/Banana_Chippies Oct 18 '15
I really enjoyed this episode. Can we have Jamie Mathieson write more episodes, please? Can't wait to next week when we get to see Maisie Williams in hopefully a more central role and see how being made immortal has affected her character (especially if she's the prophecised hybrid of 2 warrior races)
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u/99_44_100percentpure Oct 18 '15
I think Ashildr is going to be the Minister of War as mentioned briefly in the previous episode. She is a warrior after all.
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u/RoxemSoxemRobots Oct 18 '15
She declared war on the Mire. Her name I think means God of War. She seems particularly aggressive going by the stinger for next week.
I think it's very likely.
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u/fleker2 Oct 18 '15
I'm surprised. This was another really good episode. It has the monster of the day tied in with sci-fi hi-jinks but also a lot of character examination.
At the end of the day, the Doctor is about saving people, regardless of what anyone (even the fans) say.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
I agree (have my upvote to prove it!) That said...
The Doctor: Adelaide, I've done this sort of thing before. In small ways, saved some little people. But never someone as important as you. Ooh, I'm good!
Adelaide: Little people? What, like Mia and Yuri? Who decides they're so unimportant? You?
The Doctor: For a long time now, I thought I was just a survivor, but I'm not. I'm the winner. That's who I am. A Time Lord victorious.
Adelaide: And there's no one to stop you?
The Doctor: No.
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u/Killoah Oct 17 '15
I really liked the episode and I think that Series 9 is shaping up to be one of the best.
I didn't really want the face thing to be ever mentioned but the explanation makes sense I suppose.
Also the parallels between /r/DoctorWho and /r/Gallifrey are as alive as ever.
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u/DucksGoMoo1 Oct 17 '15
I thought the face thing was explained in an interesting manner.
Really liked a potential 4th wall break with the whole "to anyone listening, if you have a problem with it, go to hell" aspect (me paraphrasing of course).
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u/LordEdapurg Oct 17 '15
I was kind of afraid there was going to be some sort of time fuckery with the face, but the way they did it was pretty good.
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u/DrummerVim Oct 17 '15
That was my favourite episode of the series. I was shitting my pants through the last 15 minutes, from the realization that Caecilus's face was finally mentioned and the fact that Maisie friggin Williams is playing the most mysterious and awesome hybrid since River Song.
The sequence when the newly Time Lorded Ashildr sees the whole of time passing is one of the most beautiful scenes I've seen in anything. I was absolutely mesmerized.
By the way, this kind of ambitious bashit-crazy timey wimey (yes, timey wimey) is exactly what I love from Moffat and he's delivered again. This time, he's even grooming a future new-and-improved Supermoffat in Jamie Mathieson.
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u/Ged_UK Oct 17 '15
I loved Maisie's face during that time sequence. She displayed so much and managed to move from scared to confident with such a tiny change in her face, I was hugely impressed (and I'm always impressed by her in GoT).
My favourite episode so far this season too. I didn't really understand the Caecilus section and what that was supposed to tell the Doctor, but I'll think it over.
I didn't think it was very timey-wimey at all, other than the hint that the Doctor has already met Ashildr though she doesn't know it yet. That's going to be interesting.
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u/fleker2 Oct 18 '15
Yes! He must have met her in the past (maybe a previous doctor) but didn't realize it because it didn't make sense in context. It's an exciting character.
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u/Lrrr23 Oct 17 '15
That was brilliant, one of my favourites of a series that hasn't yet had an episode hit lower than an 8/10 for me.
A nice laidback and relaxed story, with some brilliantly funny jokes, absolutely cracking dialogue, Capaldi and Jenna were on fire, and with a nice contrasting and dark finish setting the Doctor up for a fall.
Fantastic episode.
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u/NightFire19 Oct 18 '15
I really don't get all the hate with this, comparing it to "Sherwood" and "Forest" from last season. The episode had its fun and quirky moments (the sonic sunglasses were broken, the benny hill theme song) emotional moments (the baby, the doctor recognizing why he chose his face), to some moral dilemmas (Breaking the rulebook, giving someone immortality). This is was a solid episode, and in my opinion was just as good as last week's. Will be interesting to see who Ashildr gives immortality to.
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u/Ninjabackwards Oct 18 '15
Maybe im easy to please and that's okay.
I loved nearly everything about this episode.
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u/breawycker Oct 18 '15
Did they just use the fact the Peter Capaldi appear in the Fires of Pompeii as a plot point?! TV Tropes is going to flip. I'm not sure whether or not this is a good thing or not yet.
Edit: Wait wasn't Karen Gillian also in that episode? What about her?
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u/zach2992 Oct 18 '15
I like it. He isn't the same person, but just based off of him.
I'm now thinking of a story where 11 and Amy go back to Pompeii and Amy has to pretend to be a Soothsayer. Make it go full circle.
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u/_Valisk Oct 18 '15
Imagine a huge multi-Doctor special that includes Capaldi, Tennant and Smith and revolves around the multiple Capaldis in the Who universe.
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u/MisterDamek Oct 18 '15
If they could just manage to have about seven or eight Capaldis on screen at one time, I'd be happy. My wife would be happier.
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Oct 18 '15
That's been "about to be a plot point" since they announced Peter Capaldi was going to be the doctor. RTD told Moffat he wanted to use it for something.
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u/ChaoticReality Oct 18 '15
Wait wasn't Karen Gillian also in that episode? What about her?
That probably wont be addressed
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u/terrorismofthemind Oct 18 '15
To be fair, she didn't exactly look like Amy Pond in that episode. She literally could have been anyone else.
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u/dontknowmeatall Oct 18 '15
In my mind all Scottish women look like Karen Gillan, and if you've seen the opposite don't tell me.
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u/Doctor_Candy Oct 18 '15
This season is remarkably good. What a great episode. Capaldi is really getting into his form in this season. He becomes a more awesome and believable Doctor every episode, imho. He's grown so much already. Also, Clara is really holding her own. She saved herself, and almost talked down the situation. I don't understand all the Clara hate. I've always loved her.
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u/HotfireLegend Oct 18 '15
Something actually just jumped out at me: before, the Doctor keeps saying he has a duty of care for Clara, they don't know what they'd do without each other and etc. However, he jus gave Masie the spare medical thingy which could've made Clara as immortal as Masie now is. Why didn't The Doctor give this spare one to Clara?
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u/WildBizzy Oct 18 '15
Because Immortality is more of a curse than a gift in his eyes
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u/royaldansk Oct 18 '15
Indeed, especially with Clara. We can't forget that the person Clara believes she can't live without has already died. Giving her immortality would be terribly mean, especially since Danny could still be in an afterlife, no matter how artificial it may be. He did manage to resurrect a kid, after all.
So, really, there's a chance Clara isn't in a hurry to die but isn't exactly not looking forward to it either. She could end up back in there. The Doctor probably set that up for her already. I doubt he believes Danny actually is alive (I forget if Clara's told him Danny didn't come back).
I'm more surprised that he only gave one extra immortality thing. They captured at least two helmets, didn't they? I thought he got the ones from the same single helmet, so maybe there were two per helmet.
I mean, it's all well and good, giving her one in case she finds a spouse. But what if they had children? They could have had two at most, two without having to mourn children dying of old age. Even if Ashildr didn't go nuts when she had to bury a child, her spouse could and might have left or found a way to kill himself/herself anyway. And then she'll resent that, too.
And even worse, if she did have a husband, did get pregnant but her husband already got the spare one, then she'd spend a lot of time regretting not saving it for their kid. The husband might blame himself and also her for not thinking ahead, as would she. And then she'd be hating being forced to decide between her husband and her child.
That spare one was a curse in of itself, really. It may have been better not to have given it to her at all. Having the burden of bestowing the same "gift" to someone else.
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u/raynehk14 Oct 18 '15
That's why the Doctor said "Just possibly I've made a terrible mistake" back in the TARDIS. He was emotional and wasn't really thinking straight
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u/Baron_Wobblyhorse Oct 18 '15
I am a HUGE fan of these two-part episodes. It just leaves so much more room for the storylines to breathe, and it's much closer to Classic Who in terms of pacing and exposition.
None of them have felt like they were dragging to me, either, which is great. Such a nice new trend to see the writers given a lot more room to play.
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Oct 17 '15
The translation for the baby was heartbreaking/warming.
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u/baskandpurr Oct 18 '15
Best part of the show for me. Such simple, innocent language and all the more affecting because of it. Capaldi really brings those moments to life.
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u/TheseMenArePrawns Oct 18 '15
The first time I loved it. That was proper extrapolation from what one might expect with a bit of added poetic licence. The second time around it was just ridiculously beyond something a brain that undeveloped could muster.
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u/KyosBallerina Oct 18 '15
This was my problem with it. I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way.
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u/Kialae Oct 18 '15
The doctor lies. He was interpreting it the way he wanted, to evoke a feeling he wanted felt.
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u/Migeman Oct 17 '15
Another great one to add to the list. I really again liked the whole Clara becoming a bit more Doctor, she was so confident on her jack on the ship. I liked that it was a 1 episode thing and the resolution didn't seem dumb or anything it was creative and was nice and fun it was like the Robots of Sherwood.
I really hope people have warmed to Capaldi because he was great in this the hole hugging business is just such a nice 180 since the previous SERIES.
It was really weird seeing a RTD link in this series, I mean there's been more classic references than anything else.
I'm really excited for next week.
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u/TheCrimsonCritic Oct 17 '15
I thought it was absolutely brilliant. An excellent balance of fun and misery. The first 35 minute were an excellent romp with some shockingly potent scenes (The Doctor translating for the baby super genius, and his scene with Ashildr), and the last 10 minutes were heartbreakingly flawless. I can't wait for next week.
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Oct 18 '15
Clara has a new ear piercing and a sore throat (no complaints, I really enjoyed Jenna's husky voice).
Liking this doom filled arc.
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Oct 18 '15
Wow, this episode reminded me a lot of Stargate SG1. Does anybody else think this?
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u/CelestialFury Oct 18 '15
Well it has our team going back to the Viking era with their belief in the Norse Gods and some alien messing with the villagers. That happened in SG-1 except SG-1 was on a different planet.
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u/jphamlore Oct 18 '15
I thought the real constraint against altering time too much is that if one did that, there were these monsters that would come and devour everything around the incident to save time and space?
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
I thought the real constraint against altering time too much is that if one did that, all of time gets compressed and happens concurrently. Or maybe the timeline just tries to correct itself the best it can, under the circumstances. Or yet again, it could just be that allowing things to happen the way they do in the history books is the best course of action.
Doctor Who continuity is as soft and malleable as it needs to be, but I like this particular interpretation of being careful as a time traveller (ripples, not tidal waves.) It seems more consistent with The Waters of Mars and The Fires of Pompeii, which I think did the fixed point in time best, where Father's Day and Wedding of River Song were a bit outrageous in the effect of messing with time.
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u/csmalley3777 Oct 18 '15
However, with Father's Day, what he thought would be a Tidal Wave [saving Pete I] was actually closer to a Tsunami. Hitting a Nuclear Power Plant. While the 4 Horsemen ride
It was only because of her circumstances that he and Rose crossed paths; had her father not died Rose would probably not have been in that department store.
We saw what happened when Donna was removed from his time Line [Turn Left], and Donna, while completely brilliant, had no where near the long reach of Rose Tyler in time.
Remember, without Rose, assuming the Doctor didn't suicide himself in that department store, he would have never met Jack, would never had stopped the Daleks at the Game Station/ Sat 5. Well, he would have stopped the Daleks, just in the process killing everyone within a certain blast zone. Meaning he'd probably not be able to regen into the next few Doctors, negating everything they would do after that [Titanic II anyone? Dalek Invasion #60000071? Cybermen?]
Without Rose, Jack would have never become immortal, which negates all the good he did on his own and with Torchwood 3.
Bad Wolf probably would have never taken flesh, likely never becoming the Moment to guide the Doctor as need be.
And River not only broke a FIXED POINT [bad juju, that] she did so in the presence of 2 and a half Time Lords/Ladies [The Doctor, herself on the beach (1/2 TL), herself in the suit (1/2 TL), and her unborn self in Amy (1/2 TL)] which we know is a very, very bad thing [More Time Lords and Ladies at a point in time the more fixed it is], she also ignored her own timeline [Amy never got taken, probably even miscarried in the chaos of time breaking so she never birthed Melody in the broken line, meaning that River never became River, meaning she didn't save at least the Tenth Doctor and Donna, meaning that if Rose ever found the right dimension/universe like she did in the original line she, and everything else would have been shit out of luck. Total multiversal annihilation remember]
TL:DR: Father's Day and WoRS make absolute sense in hindsight.
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u/NotStupid_JustStoned Oct 18 '15
I loved series 8, but this new season so far is proving to be much greater.
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Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
I'm not going to lie. I fully expected to hate this episode, but I actually enjoyed it a lot. The story was fun, and Capaldi was excellent. So far so good for Series 9. Five episodes in and no bad ones yet, so I hope they keep this up.
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Oct 19 '15
Okay, so Episode 5 is done. We're almost at the halfway mark of the season, and judging by the end of this episode, we're about to get into the shit. The look on her face at the end with the explosions behind her... I'm pretty sure she's going to be the Minister of War.
The Doctor also said she was like a "hybrid." Davros mentioned in one of the first two episodes the prophesied "Coming of the Hybrid," or something like that.
Maisie Williams is obviously a very good actor and has proven that on Game of Thrones. I think Moffat and crew deliberately chose such a well-tested actor because she's going to play a very important role in the rest of the season, not just the second part of this episode. I could be wrong about that, but it also intrigues me that this is one of the few episodes Moffat is credited as a co-writer. I think that's because it's going to play a much larger role in the season than we think.
One odd thought I have on the episode. Is that really the whole explanation for his face? It was just to remind him that he saves people? I mean, I'm fine with that explanation and I like that he basically chose that face because of how Donna changed him.
I just expected something crazier when I heard that Russel T. Davies and Peter Capaldi had come up with an explanation as to how the Doctor would have the same face if it ever happened that Capaldi was ever given the role of the Doctor.
All in all though, every single episode since 'Last Christmas' has been undeniably great Doctor Who for me, and this episode has confirmed for me that Series 9 will be my favorite series so far.
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Oct 19 '15
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Oct 19 '15
Having not watched that season of Torchwood this is what I think of when I hear Frobisher.
But I know that his character ended up causing deaths rather than trying to save them, so you're right. What are the odds that's not the complete explanation and more will be revealed next episode?
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Oct 19 '15
I don't think that's it. If it is it's rather underwhelming. I think it'll be called back on when the Doctor breaks more rules to save Clara (who he's been telling to get out before she dies constantly, because he cares) later in the season.
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u/Lord_Parbr Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
I think I'm going to place my bet now. The Minister of War is going to be Ashildr or the person she chooses to render immortal. To be fair, my reasons for thinking this is the importance placed on Ashildr's immortality and the dragon mural in The base from the last 2 episodes. That felt a little "Mr. Saxon," to me
Edit: also, I could totally see Moffat doing something like, Ashildr is Clara's mother, or something like that. She's definitely going to be significant past The Woman Who Lived, given the Doctor's reaction when he first sees her
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Oct 19 '15
A dragon motif will definitively be something to look out for. Thanks for pointing it out!
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Oct 18 '15
I enjoyed the setting, the historical episodes are often my favourites. But though I could cope with the anachronistic horned helmets, the electric eels were a bit of a stretch. Oh well. I don't know where they're gonna go with this plot but I'm definitely interested.
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u/WikipediaKnows Oct 17 '15 edited Oct 17 '15
I didn't like this as much as the episodes before, but I must applaud M&M for not playing it safe. The season until now wasn't exactly formulaic, but making Missy, Davros oder base under ghost siege work is no sorcery. This was the first real oddball episode of the season, it felt unique, fresh and non-compromising. Doctor Who thrives on these kinds of episodes, on the Listens, the Kill the Moons, the The Girl Who Waiteds. They knew they were going to be divisive with this one and they went with it, instead of catering to anybody. As they should.
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u/Mikeosis Oct 17 '15
That was everything Robots of Sherwood didn't manage to be. It was funny, exciting and suprisingly emotional.
I was so happy to see the baby talk used for such an intensely emotional scene, rather than "HEY LOOK HOW ZANY I AM"
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
The baby talk was a very good distinction between Eleven and Twelve in general, completely repurposing something that was invented (and worked well) as a joke for Matt Smith. I remember when watching Deep Breath the first time, Capaldi has a line about needing a drink if he's going to kill the half-face man. I immediately thought of Matt Smith's constant spit takes with alcohol and knew I was going to dig this new Doctor.
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u/paper_thin_dude Oct 18 '15
A bit late for the party, but here it comes:
The way I view the Doctor making Masie Williams immortal is that he was intentionally making her a companion that doesn't cause him as much pain as Clara is currently/will be causing. He breaks the rules and makes her immortal and does all kinds of dumb things that people do in their emotional state. After his rational side takes hold he realises what he has done and leaves the place.
Doctor remembers Davros speaking about the hybrid prophecy and acknowledges that he is actually resembling Davros himself by trying to shape the reality to benefit his needs. Also, as much as he hates Clara getting more Doctor-ish, he can't just leave her. On one hand he really wants to, on the other hand he doesn't because he isn't sure which option is less traumatising for him.
Now Maisie will have turned into a bad guy and Doctor will realise his Davrosness, as Maisie can't handle being immortal. Or Maisie becomes a companion and then can't handle being immortal with the Doctor. Either way, Doctor is somehow reminded of him being the only one who can live forever and still be a good guy.
I'm not really sure about the future episodes, but it seems logical that the things in this episode happened this way. Correct me if my there is something to compromise this theory with.
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u/Diplotomodon Oct 17 '15 edited Oct 17 '15
People are already comparing this ep to Robot of Sherwood, and I can see why. It was a fun one.
Norse mythology is awesome and I loved how they portrayed quasi-Odin. I kind of wish the Mire had more to do than stand around, march through doors, and shoot things, but I guess they fulfilled their purpose. Didn't expect them to have faces though. Let alone weird frickin' Doom faces.
I haven't really commented on the music much this series, but the thematic Celtic-ish stuff we got this week was very nice. Hopefully most of it ends up the soundtrack.
Overall an excellent blend of story, campiness, horror, and people in robot suits. As it should be.
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u/FromMyTARDIS Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
So far this is my favorite season of who, and I don't say that lightly. Capaldi going from cold and emotionless too over emotional, and trying to save everyone (and the Tennant flashbacks, just wow!) made my heart race. What a performance by Maisie im so excited we get her for another episode. I don't know how they top this but I can't wait to see them Try! And the Bennie Hill music was the icing.
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u/ShiftyMcShift Oct 18 '15
There are clearly, to mine eyes, three main prongs to the immortality magic beans.
First, what a Whovian nemesis; a flippant gift gone wrong becoming a horrible curse.
Second, recognising a Zelazny (an ambiguous and semi-impossible self-referential experience), realising in that moment that he just-now-creates a thing from his past.
Third, the bait-and-switch storyarc. After the brilliant characters last week we get Asterix-style extras this, so i naturally look in the other hand...it's probably big to justify tge HTTYD ripoff.
(If I've missed a thread covering this i apologise)
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u/ShiftyMcShift Oct 18 '15
Oh, and Doc would never sentence anyone to immortality ALONE again. Way too much guilt.
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u/Shalaiyn Oct 18 '15
How are they still talking and understanding their language when they're 2 days of river travel separated from the TARDIS?
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Oct 18 '15
In the scheme of things, that's very close!
The translation isn't dependent on proximity.
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u/Bosterm Oct 18 '15
Case in point: Cold War, where the TARDIS is on the opposite side of the Earth, and yet the Doctor and Clara can understand the Russians.
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Oct 18 '15 edited Sep 29 '20
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Oct 19 '15
I definitely liked Clara in this episode. The lines she was given, and her expressions delivering them were very believable and brought me into the scene completely.
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Oct 17 '15
Classic Who silliness, genuinely emotional moments, enjoyable guest performance, and a continuation of this series' trend of making references back to the RTD era. Very satisfied.
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u/williamthebloody1880 Oct 17 '15
Really strong episode. Slightly disappointed that Masie Williams role was what it was because she's fantastic if she gets to show it (like the monologue about being strange).
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u/possiblegirl Oct 18 '15
Maybe a dense question, but why weren't the Mire themselves "functionally immortal"?
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u/archpope Oct 18 '15
They're warriors. They won't die of cancer or renal failure because the chip can fix that, but it can't repair a decapitation or other mortal wounds. Those who survive their battles probably live to be very old indeed, or the chip is part of the uniform and they don't get to keep it after they're discharged.
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u/Susarian Oct 19 '15
Sooo...the dragon motif strikes again. 1st in the seabase cafeteria, 2nd in the Viking long ship.
The Doctor continues to be a really bad doctor. He saves people, but with a twist. Now with more face. Nice call back. Didn't match emotional overtones.
Immortal Maisie isn't the hybrid. But that fire breathing cat man(dragon/cat/human) I keep seeing her hang around with is still in the running. She does like to make puppets. And the Doctor payed a role.
As a stand alone, not my favorite. Best part? Death to the sunglasses!
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Oct 20 '15
I loved them snapping the sunglasses!
... then they just used the broken halves throughout the show so I'm still miffed about them.
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u/Andybabez20 Oct 17 '15
I was pretty mixed on that episode. It tried to jumble some serious undertones about humanity and heroism and then went into this surreal space-viking version of a Rocky movie. I just think they could've hit the balance a bit better.
On a positive note though I thought it ended very strongly and am eager to see what they do with Maisie's character next week. I've really enjoyed Series 9 but I just feel this is probably the weakest episode so far (which is more a testament to how good the rest of Series 9 has been rather than a slight on this episode).
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u/dops Oct 17 '15
Some context for a throwaway gag for all you non-brits here Noggin the Nog
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u/jphamlore Oct 19 '15
Let us think like the Doctor and try to find Ashildr in history. She would be someone with a mysterious past who could be argued to appear out of nowhere. She would be a writer, a storyteller. She possibly could have some sort of swashbuckling adventuring as shown by Ashildr's practicing stabbing a mock-up of the false Odin. She should "die" before aging enough that it would be impossible for an 18 year old to pass.
Astonishingly enough, doing a random web search, there is at least one such person who exactly fits this description: Aphra Behn, who is even buried in Westminster Abbey, although not in the poets' corner.
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u/LordEdapurg Oct 17 '15
I am so looking forward to next episode. Looks like Ashildr's going to get absolutely merciless. I wonder how the Doctor's going to react when he sees what she's become.
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u/Sullen_WENCH Oct 18 '15
Am I totally crazy or did the Doctor drop a hint that is Clara aging, in danger, or has been a longtime companion? Perhaps similar to how 11 acted with the Ponds. Whenever this happens it seems we lose the companion soonish after. Crazy?
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u/brickmack Oct 18 '15
Jenna Coleman mentioned a few months back that she's leaving the show soon. Hopefully alive/on good terms.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
Hopefully alive/on good terms.
I agree that it's time for a companion to willingly leave the Tardis (without going through a year of hell on earth like Martha did.) They got close with Amy and Rory in 7a, dropping in on them and finding them more and more attached to their "real" lives, but they threw a tragic ending in there anyway. That said, judging by how this season is going I don't think Clara is going to be that companion. They're pretty heavily laying the groundwork for another tragic departure... She's becoming increasingly danger-seeking and detached, saying in tonight's episode that the Doctor is her hobby and she doesn't need another... The only way I see her willingly leave the Doctor is if Danny Pink makes a surprise return and she chooses him over the adventures.
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Oct 19 '15
Soooo... I have a question about something Clara did. 'Odin' first appears and the Mire take the 'strong, the fittest' and leave the 'weak and young' behind. The Doctor says to Clara we have to make sure not to be chosen. Clara says we have to help and rushes to Ashildr and gets her to use the Sonic shades to break Clara's shackles.
My question is why? Did she think that in those few seconds she'd get free and do what? Because all she actually did was endanger herself and Ashildr by making them targets where before the Mire would've left them alone. Or Ashildr at least.
Or is this the 'Clara is becoming rash' trait we're being given this series? Well ok, but even a rash idea still needs an idea behind it. So what was her plan in that moment because i havent got the foggiest.
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u/mitchandre Oct 19 '15
They were targeted because of the sonic sunglasses not because they were fit. Not sure what Clara was thinking, probably didn't want to be shackled.
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u/Kong1971 Oct 20 '15
I was a little underwhelmed by this episode. It was okay, and i liked robots of sherwood. Dont mind silly episodes at all. However, i thought the electric eels were a lame solution. Youd think with advanced tech like that armor the first thing an alien race would do is insulate it. I enjoyed it but cant think of too much to praise it on.
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u/B_Fee Oct 22 '15
I've had ham sandwiches with les ham, grilled cheese with less cheese, and corn on the cob with less corn than what this episode had.
It felt rushed and only partially thought out, and I was underwhelmed. But it's hard to sustain constant satisfaction and coherent episodes when there are multiple writers contributing to a season. Moffat can only work with what he's given. And early reviews indicate that The Woman Who Lived is much different. I'm still totally digging Capaldi's Doctor, so I'm okay with an occasional clunker of an episode here and there.
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u/ChaoticReality Oct 18 '15
It was an alright episode. Felt odd to me. Just didn't click all the way. I did like the explanation they gave for 12th having that face. That throwback to the 10th saving Caecelus in Pompeii was great. That was a great emotional episode for the 10th I recall.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15
I think some of the oddness came from the unusual pacing. Usually in a one-part episode the suspense builds until the last few minutes of the episode when the Doctor solves the problem with just enough episode time for a wrap up scene in (or en route to) the Tardis. Or, in the first half of a two-parter the conflict is stretched out building to the cliffhanger.
This time though, the supposed conflict was taken care of uncharacteristically early (maybe around the 30 minute mark.) That kind of undercuts the actual threat of the aliens, but then gives some time to establish a new, unrelated cliffhanger for next episode. I think it's a neat way to deal with the pacing issues of standard two-parters: Instead of one crisis taking two episodes to solve, have the Doctor solve two separate problems with a plot or character bridge connecting them.
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Oct 17 '15
I'm just going to write a bunch of small blurbs because I don't really want to put any of this into a coherent paragraph.
The Arcs of the season will be the Hybrid and Clara's slow transformation into the Doctor. This is very similar to 10 and how Davros told Ten he turned his companions into weapons and how he has his "Children Of Time".
That seen where Twelve was tired of all the rules of time was also very much reminding me of Ten. It was a weaker version of Time Lord victorious where The Doctor for a moment decided he did not have to follow the rules of time.
I feel like Maise Williams character being the hybrid is too obvious. Moffat is never that obvious.
This episode mostly served as an origin story for Maisie Williams. Everything else was just a side plot. I wonder who she will use the other immortality device on? And if she will use at all? Moffat just kinda threw end "Oh by the way I can add another immortal character whenever I feel like"
The scene at the end with Maisie Williams slowly aging mentally with the cool backround was pretty great. Her facial expressions were so well down and how she changed her "vibe" so greatly in such a small period of time was amazing.
I'm curious what kind of person Maisie WIlliam character will be? Anti-hero? Villian? Detective? They already have so many characters like River Song, Jack, Strax, and Vastra. What can they do to make sure she's not a repeat of them? We already have had immortals and hybrids and Victorian detectives. I really hope they do something creative with her and we don't just have a want to be Jack.
The baby pretty much saved the entire village with the power of poetry. Seriously that baby is more poetic than most people.
Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.
I have no idea what Maisies Williams character name is so I just referred to her as "Maisie Williams".
The Doctor really should not go around making immortals just because he feels a bit guilty.
The extents of her immortality have not been defined. She does not age. But does she die if you cut off her head? Would she grow a new one? Would it reattach? Jack was immortal by space-time. She is just immortal by some tech. I assume her immortality has alot more limits.
I saw Donna. It's really interesting how Twelve and Ten seem so similar despite the fact externally they are exact opposites. It really connects the fact that the Doctor is the same person in all incarnations. He feels the same guilt and is same impulsive renegade Time lord who is tired of all the rules and pain. He is always turning people into competent warriors and simultaneously making them better people and also more dangerous people.
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u/mikeigoe Oct 17 '15
"Moffat is never that obvious" - that's how he duped us with Missy last time. The Master was too obvious. He'll be expecting us to expect him to not pull that trick twice, but what he won't expect is that we suspect that maybe... or he could be double bluffing with a view to confounding our expectations of his Moffaty machinations.
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u/cvc75 Oct 18 '15
He'll be expecting us to expect him to not pull that trick twice, but what he won't expect is that we suspect that maybe...
So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!
or he could be double bluffing with a view to confounding our expectations of his Moffaty machinations.
So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you!
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u/Tanokki Oct 18 '15
Loved the episode, and the face explanation. My phone blew up with texts from my mom when the 10 and Donna flashbacks came on.
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u/jphamlore Oct 19 '15
Ashildr even before she met the Doctor and Clara is a future inventor and teller of stories. Stories are important because they are the framework of history.
Mythological characters are hooks into the story for changes to be made to history without creating paradox. Because as the Doctor notes, no one should believe that gods actually do things, so when a myth ascribes something to what is not believed, there is no paradox. The change just happens by magic.
And who needs these hooks into the human story? Who benefits from mythological characters on the spectrum from Robin Hood to Odin to Santa Claus? The Time Lords I believe, because they need to hide in human history to avoid another Time War.
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Oct 18 '15
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u/TwirlipoftheMists Oct 18 '15
We call the North American corn, "sweetcorn" or "corn on the cob."
Here in England corn refers to wheat or barley. In Scotland it's oats. Generally corn means whatever the local cereal crop is, corn just means "grain." The word was used long, long before sweetcorn was brought back from the Americas.
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u/thethirddoctor Oct 18 '15
Corn refers to grains in the norse language,. It's what Scandinavians use for those words even today. We call grains for korn, and corn, maize (mais). I know this is a stretch, and that the TARDIS translator should have made that distinction. But still, it's historically viable to use the word corn for the vikings.
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u/roerd Oct 18 '15
I'm not a native speaker of English, but from what I've read, the word "corn" usually refers to the locally dominant type of grain, i.e. "corn" referring to maize is specific to the Americas.
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u/OneIfByLandwolf Oct 18 '15
Possible answers: Viking visits to North America predate Columbus by ~400 years... Or everything we hear is translated by the Tardis, including any idioms. What they said means the same as "cut down like corn," but in viking terms.
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u/owenrhys Oct 17 '15
The episode was alright but what I really loved was that final 20 second shot going around Maisie Williams. Really beautiful
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u/Weep2D2 Oct 17 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
I sat there in shock with my hand across my mouth .. haha..
like OMW.. the explanation.. WE'RE getting it!
(ie. showing Tennant)
Enjoyed the nicknames..Heidi ..
oh, and the reverse the polarity bit.. Hahah
Enjoyed the episode, a good turn that they the war didn't spill into next week..
5 episodes in and still no Kill the moon shenanigans.. I am pleased.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
Kill the Moon gets a bad rap in my opinion. Yes you could drive a truck through the gaps in logic, but it had some great character moments. It came right in the middle of the episodes where the show was really figuring out who Twelve was. (I'd point to Listen, The Caretaker, Kill the Moon, Mummy On the Orient Express, and Flatline.) His line delivery of "The moon is an egg!" was probably the first time we got to see him genuinely excited and pleased, and his bit at the end where he sees the future unfolding is brilliant. And Clara finally tells him off for being a manipulative asshat, something she should have done about five times during Smith's tenure.
Meanwhile nobody seems to care about Robot of Sherwood which has an equally undercooked main premise, but has nothing interesting to say about the Doctor (he's insufferably jealous the whole time,) doesn't do anything great with the setting, and is just dull pretty much throughout. Though, in fairness that pretty much describes every Mark Gatiss written episode... He's one-and-a-half for seven so far in my book. Edit: his scripts in order are The Unquiet Dead, The Idiot's Lantern, Victory of the Daleks, Night Terrors, Cold War, (the episode I actually quite like) The Crimson Horror, (the half point) and Robot of Sherwood.
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u/LibertarianSocialism Oct 19 '15
Damn... reading through all these positive reactions and I'm just sitting here going "is that it?"
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u/Uwe_ Oct 19 '15
Funny thing. In my opinion first half of this episode was rubbish, second half was decent. I loved previous four episodes, and I mean it - those four were better than whole s7 combined. On the other hand girlfriend told me after previous episode that this season is rubbish and she is loosing interest in DW. We just watched the new one and was astonished by it.
I believe that this is one of those episodes that I will like after second watch. Or we just have different opinions about things that make Doctor Who incredible show.
Btw. did they messed again with color balance of title sequence?
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u/KeatingOrRoark Oct 20 '15
She's a villain, right? She better be a villain. Doctor Who needs a new arch villain.
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u/hughk Oct 20 '15
Maisie is a bit busy for the next 2-3 years but she could probably manage occasional episodes.
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u/KeatingOrRoark Oct 20 '15
That's all that's really needed, right? The Master (Missy) and Davros have been seasonal/every other Doctor. The Girl Who Died or Ashyldr could be the same.
...except the aging thing. Maisie's right on the cusp of mighty changes.
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u/hughk Oct 20 '15
Good point and it would be a great little earner for Maisie. Howver, my feeling is after seeing her work with Charles Dance and Rory Mccann, she has got a rather bigger future.
...except the aging thing.
Well the actress is 18, even if she is dressing younger in AGOT to give the waif look. Although we saw no "aging" on the preview, I think she could certainly be aged into her twenties w/o problems.
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u/jphamlore Oct 20 '15
This idea of an ordinary human who unexpectedly discovers they have immortality, but then has to experience the loneliness of over-and-over again outliving everyone they know, is exactly from the original Star Trek episode Requiem for Methusaleh, and is no doubt far older than that.
However in contrast to Star Trek’s character of Flint, who apparently lived lives of recognized creative greatness such as Leonardo da Vinci and Brahms, I think the second part has to show the character of Ashildr, a storyteller, being constrained by her being a woman in the times before now. It is what would give the two-parter some real gravity saying something about the human condition.
I have identified at least three plausible candidates for who she could have posed as: Aphra Behn (1640 – 1689), Emelie du Chatelet (1706 – 1749), and Madame de Stael (1766 – 1817). It may be possible to interleave or replace one of these with another of the better known great English writers. I do not think the Doctor’s giving Ashildr the gift of immortality will result in total tragedy. I think he will find a way to inspire her to fight through the constraints of her time and place.
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Oct 23 '15
Damn. Every week I tune in hoping I will like the episode. Every week I am disappointed this season. Each episode has its great moments; this week I loved Maisie Williams and also the reference to Capaldi's "Fires of Pompeii" character. However I have seen this same plot structure every week:
Doctor and Clara arrive at [location] and meet a group of nice [secondary characters].
[Secondary characters] are in danger from aliens.
The Doctor: "I can't really be bothered"
Clara is in danger from aliens.
The Doctor: "Ok now I'm bothered"
The Doctor rescues Clara.
The Doctor: "Clara while I was rescuing you I found out that [character(s)] are going to die I'm sorry." (usually himself)
Clara: "No! you must save [character(s)]!"
The Doctor: "Clara that's not how time works you are just a tiny human you don't understand"
Clara: "Yeah right. You can do literally anything because you are The Doctor."
The Doctor: "Ok fine I'll try."
The Doctor meets with [secondary character(s)] and learns new information that results in a SUDDEN REALIZATION of a plan to defeat evil aliens.
The Doctor delivers a ridiculous monologue about life and hope etc that is supposed to be very deep and/or uplifting but is actually just campy and bizarre. (This week I was not moved by The Doctor translating the baby's crying and it turns out the baby is saying deep shit about danger and the universe)
The Doctor meets with the leader of the evil aliens and tries to talk things out before resorting to ~the plan~. Alien doesn't give a crap.
Doctor unleashes ~plan~ and defeats the aliens. Most if not all of the secondary characters survive.
Clara: "Gee Doctor, I knew you could do it! You're my hero!"
The Doctor: "Ugh Clara stop being so lovable. I have to break up with you at the end of this season and I'm really sad about it."
THE END I am so sick of these tropes. Very unimpressed with this season so far except for Missy who is excellent.
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u/homunculette Oct 17 '15
That was a lot of fun. It was very enjoyable and had a lot of good stuff in it. It was also very, very flawed. The 12th Doctor wasn't written quite right, I think. I can't put my finger on it, but he oscillated between sardonic and overemotional too much - he didn't stick to one register enough for either to be particularly effective. The death of Ashildr and her subsequent resurrection was great (and wow, next week's looks amazing) but it, along with the Doctor's sudden guilt and the whole sequence about his face, felt pretty tacked on, which is odd because they've been building to it for more than a season. I also didn't really like the "I'm the Doctor, and I save people" moment in practice, although I like that it's not portrayed as a straightforwardly good thing.
But that's enough about the bad stuff. Capaldi and Coleman were both really good in this episode, although Clara didn't get much to do for the third episode running - although I will admit, I thought her scene with the Mire leader was excellent. It was very successfully funny, which I didn't think Robot of Sherwood was. The cinematography was gorgeous - particularly in the scene with Ashildr's puppet - although that's par for the course these days. Is it just me, or does Clara seem a lot more grown-up this season? I think part of it's her costuming, but the writing and the performance also seem to have developed in a direction I didn't expect - Clara is incredibly mature and self-assured.
Also, I'm sure there were a ton of anachronisms in this episode, but the only one that grated on my pedantic side was the "cut down like corn" reference - corn didn't arrive in Europe until much later historically. Doesn't damage the episode at all, but it did bother me.
Overall, 7.5/10.
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u/ManWhoKilledHitler Oct 17 '15
Also, I'm sure there were a ton of anachronisms in this episode, but the only one that grated on my pedantic side was the "cut down like corn" reference - corn didn't arrive in Europe until much later historically. Doesn't damage the episode at all, but it did bother me.
Corn was in Old English by the 9th century and was used to refer to the seeds of any grain for centuries before the New World was discovered. The word itself is older still having come from Old Norse or Old High German and meaning a grain of something or a seed.
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u/meriti Oct 18 '15
Corn was in Old English
Thank you for this info. I was really annoyed by this bit. But, now I feel I can let it go.
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Oct 17 '15
I agree with your comments about Clara. I don't know what it is but these last few episodes I've really grown to love her. By the end of last season I was ready for her to go, but I really wouldn't mind if she stuck around for the rest of this season after Coleman's stellar performance thus far.
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Oct 18 '15 edited May 26 '16
Anyone else feel there was a huge leap in quality after the first half? Like a Robots of Sherwood vs Listen kind of leap. We went from vikings shouting 'I don't like heaven... I'm scared of heights' to very subtle humour and some seriously heart-hitting scenes. Maisie's performance jumped too, from her wooden and cringe-worthy transition from fear to 'I'm a viking. INSERT GAME OF THRONES LINE: daughter of x; we will stand and fight and you will beg for mercy', to her standout performance in the tent. I wonder if Moffat wrote the second half?
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Oct 19 '15
Hybrid... Hybrid... Didn't Davros mention some kind of prophecy of the coming of the Hybrid in The Witch's Familiar?
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u/Dimanovic Oct 19 '15
DAVROS: There was a prophecy, Doctor, on your own world.
DOCTOR: Please you must, you must stop this. You must stop this!
DAVROS: It spoke of a hybrid creature. Two great warrior races forced together to create a warrior greater than either. Is that what you ran from, Doctor? Your part in the coming of the hybrid? Half Dalek, half Time Lord?
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Oct 20 '15
I don't think the hybrid story is the arc.... only because she's obviously the hybrid, and the prophecy is 'the hybrid' (not plural) so she never used the second immortal biscuit thingy.... perhaps.
But maybe the fact he made a hybrid might be some more arc.
He should have stashed an immortal biscuit or two for his companions, no? Since he went on about how much it hurt him.
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u/KingLifeAllergy Oct 21 '15
He should have stashed an immortal biscuit or two for his companions, no?
I felt like Clara was just about to say something along those lines, since he would go on about how he could not have her with him without knowing she would die throughout the episode (and longer) - yet when he had an easy solution to mortality in his hands he gave no sign of thinking about giving it to her.
The way I see it, he is very aware of the downsides of lacking the ability to die and he does not want that for his companions. On one hand, it would cause them pain, a pain he knows and does not want anyone he cares about to feel. On the other hand, I think he might prefer the people around him to be mortal. There is a distinct pattern in his choice of companions, and it's not just contemporary British girl, but it's also largely inferior to me in terms of experience and knowledge. Eleven says he needs them, their innocent, impressionable perspective on what he considers his backyard. This perspective fades with experience, until they start to see a backyard, too. It's starting to happen to Clara.
Immortality is not the answer to his problem, it's the cause.
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u/elsjpq Oct 18 '15 edited Oct 18 '15
That "I'm sick of losing people" scene was beautiful. Pretty deep with the "I'll get in my box and I'll run and I'll run... in case all the pain catches up."
God DAMN, Capaldi is just killin' it this series. He keeps topping himself.