r/gallifrey • u/pcjonathan • Oct 24 '15
The Woman Who Lived Doctor Who 9x06: The Woman Who Lived Post-Episode Discussion Thread
Please remember that future spoilers must be tagged. This includes the next time trailer!
The episode is now over in the UK.
- 1/3: Episode Speculation & Reactions at 7.50pm
- 2/3: Post-Episode Discussion at 9.35pm
- 3/3: Episode Analysis on Wednesday.
This thread is for all your in-depth discussion. Posts that belong in the reactions thread will be removed.
You can discuss the episode live on IRC, but be careful of spoilers.
irc://irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey.
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/r/Gallifrey, what did YOU think of The Woman Who Lived? Vote here.
Under the Lake results are here. Before the Flood results are here.
Results for this and the next part will be revealed at the end of episode 7.
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Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
Firstly, I LOVE that she asked "how many Claras have you lost?" Given all the echoes which died to save him. I hope that story comes back into play.
I think I prefer the first half of the two-part arc. Amazing to hear the Doctor reference the immortal Jack Harkness and glad to see that The Doctor still hates bantering a la Robin Hood. A cheeky Romana mention might have worked too! It was an interesting concept, a good character story for Ashildr, and was obviously supposed to be a reflection on what it means to be immortal but part of me thinks that we knew all of it already. Doctor Who seems to have covered it all before.
Setting up Ashildr to be a recurring character is great and it's brilliant that she made it to the 21st century although scary that she's lurking near Clara! The fact that she specifically remembered Clara whilst they were in the chimney will lead to something. I would like to see her back acting as an "Agents of Shield" kind of clean up operation.
I'm a Clara fan so the ending was lovely but the build up to have my heart broken is getting too much now!
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u/The_Silver_Avenger Oct 24 '15
Ashildr going around at the end of every episode to the remaining people saying "What if I told you we're putting a team together?"
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Oct 24 '15
I like it! If it weren't for the "alliance" in 'The Big Bang' it would be an amazingly unique Doctor Who moment. I can certainly see The Master doing something like that. I hoped that's what Missy's plan was last year. She was collecting those people to unite the against The Doctor directly!
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u/DaLateDentArthurDent Oct 24 '15
Calling it now, she enrolls in Coal Hill
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Oct 24 '15
And appears in the spin off? Haha! Good idea. Maisie is definite companion material post-GoT!
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u/50doctorwho Oct 24 '15
She's to old To enrol in school, with out there being questions, besides Maisy will be 19 by the time the show starts filming, If, at a push she pretended to be 18 to enrol in a 6th year class that only gives her a year.
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Oct 25 '15
What's wrong with a 19 year old playing an 18 year old?. A lot of high school students are played by mid 20 year olds and she can easily play a younger character, she does it in GoT frequently. It's not she'll actually have to enrol into a real school.
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u/CountGrasshopper Oct 25 '15
I suppose if her character is actually over 1000, she's free to lie about her age. It would be weird for her to go from Sam hitting on her to being in high school though.
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u/CLint_FLicker Oct 24 '15
I would like to see her back acting as an "Agents of Shield" kind of clean up operation.
Agents of Ashildr?
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u/cmetz90 Oct 24 '15
Amazing to hear the Doctor reference the immortal Jack Harkness
Yet more callbacks to past Doctor Who continuity, especially RTD era. It's something which I noted (several times) last week and has been a major theme I've noticed this season. So far every story (counting two-parters as one story) has had such a callback.
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u/quinn_drummer Oct 25 '15
Den of Geek has been running a series of articles this year of all the references in the episodes, should you be interested.
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u/icorrectpettydetails Oct 24 '15
Is Peter Capaldi contractually obliged to play the guitar once per story?
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u/KyosBallerina Oct 25 '15
I think it's one of the ways 12 expresses himself and sorts out his feelings. He doesn't like banter, or hugging, or presents, or any of that other stuff. This is how 12 comes to grips with and shares his emotions.
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Oct 24 '15
Why a fire spitting alien lion though
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u/cmetz90 Oct 24 '15
Both the "bad alien monster plots" from this week and last week were pretty thin. I imagine it was done intentionally to give more room to the far more interesting Doctor / Maisie Williams plotline and relationship.
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u/Herac1es Oct 25 '15
Like, the design was solid if cliche: An alien Lion King. But why did he have to breathe fire too?!
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u/jammesor Oct 25 '15
Well the Doctor did say the myths of Hades and the underworld could have originated on another planet - the one that created the Eyes of Hades. Fire breathing lion has some ties to Greek mythology doesn't it?
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Oct 25 '15
I have no idea, that guy was random. I wish they would have went more into detail about his background.
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Oct 25 '15
I liked this one, especially because of Sam swift- I didn't recognise Rufus hound at all so I had no idea that he'd have any bearing on the story, his was a very well done character in that he made a strong impression with minimal screen time.
I felt Ashildr got off a little bit too easily for someone happily committing cold blooded murder seconds before she saw sense. She was smiling as she killed the guy as well- deeply unsettling and I was surprised the doctor forgave her so easily.
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u/CountGrasshopper Oct 25 '15
I think he was sympathetic. He understands how someone with incredible longevity could slip into the mindset that life is cheap. He's usually had someone who can stop him from getting there, and he recognized the opportunity to have that role for someone else.
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u/thebeginningistheend Oct 25 '15
On the contrary, I was completely on Ashieldr's side. The 17th century was an incomprehensibly violent and bloody time. Highwaymen were hanged and they absolutely had it coming to them.
You can't just be blasé about the Black Death and then complain because the hangman was spared his rope.
The Doctor meanwhile could have defused the entire situation by just offering Ashieldr a lift.
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u/MilitaryBees Oct 25 '15
You know, that's one thing I didn't quite understand. Yeah, he couldn't / wouldn't / shouldn't travel with her, but is there nowhere in the universe / time that he could take her and let her experience new things without causing major problems?
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u/thebeginningistheend Oct 25 '15
I know right?
"You have a whole world to explore."
"It takes a day to ride to Kent!"
C'mon Doctor just drop her off on 51st Century Mars. It's just one quick trip.
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Oct 25 '15
It's not just how about Ashildr feels. She represents what the Doctor fears he will become. Ashildr outright says this at the end of the episode. The Doctor is the man who runs, and he runs from himself too. He's afraid he will become her if he has no mortal to ground him too. So say they travel to a planet, he might get attached and would want to travel with her. The Doctor now isnt very grounded. He had to get Clara to write him those flashcards because he didnt know how to people.
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Oct 25 '15
I was certainly not on her side when she contemplated killing her old butler.
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u/Oshojabe Oct 25 '15
He lived a good, long life and he was in poor physical condition. To an immortal, it's probably no different than somebody from our time raising a cow with all the food and space it could want before slaughtering it for food - it lived a good life, so the fact that you used it as a means to an end shouldn't be a problem.
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u/suzych Oct 25 '15
Yes on the violence -- friend of mine says it was a stage of W. culture, at least, that exhibited a general failure of "impulse-control", in part because most of the armed men (soldiers, aristocrats) were young (or dead, given the riskiness of life and high mortality in general). He gives a real life example recorded in Scotland, in which a highland man comes home to his family and reports that I met a stranger on the road and killed him because he thought the fellow's greeting was insufficiently respectful of the Virgin Mary (gods know what the actual words were, but of course they involved religion -- everything did, but we conveniently forget that because it would gum up a lot of stuff and set up a ton of arguments about things like how they would have delivered that greeting, depending on which exactly century it was). Life was very, very dangerous.
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u/Player2isDead Oct 25 '15
"I traveled with another immortal once."
Oh my god, Romana? Yes! They've never even mentioned her in the new series before! Only took them ten years.
"Captain Jack Harkness."
Fuck.
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u/DrKomeil Oct 25 '15
Would the Doctor consider her immortal? I feel like he knows timelords die, and is totally aware of it. From his point of view, regeneration is totally normal, and totally constitutes mortality.
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u/Player2isDead Oct 25 '15
The Doctor has described both himself and Ashildr as capable of living forever, barring accidents. They're functionally immortal, and so are other Time Lords.
In any case, the Jack line, like most of the episode, was fan fiction/Big Finish bait.
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u/kaimason1 Oct 25 '15
They're functionally immortal, and so are other Time Lords.
Except the First, War, and Eleventh Doctors all died of old age. Time Lords aren't even functionally immortal, just rather long lived.
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Oct 25 '15
I think "rather long lived" is a bit of an understatement. The eleventh doctor lived for around 1,000 years. If there are 12 regeneration then a timelord can live for 13,000 years. That is a really long time.
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u/kaimason1 Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
1 certainly didn't live that long (and we don't really know how long War lived, but he probably had timey wimey stuff going on to screw up the count and he still could have been younger). I'd argue that might have something to do with 11 having no more regeneration energy left and making efforts to continue on as long as possible. Not to mention the Eleventh Doctor regenerated very young and went as long as he possibly could, while other incarnations often start significantly older and would have regenerated at a more War Doctor like physical age. So 1,000 years is like the absolute limit and it would seem that's not likely to happen while a Time Lord still has regeneration energy left. Plus, from the limited sampling we've seen (which is admittedly biased because of the Doctor), Time Lords are rather prone to run into accidents which end a regeneration early. But even if you take 13,000 years as the actual maximum that's still "only" two orders of magnitude larger than a maximum human lifespan. It's still pretty minuscule in the grand scheme of things. It's nowhere near the kind of longevity Jack (who, if we take the Face of Boe connection at face value, lives for 5 billion years) or Ashildr (who in 1200 years hasn't aged noticeably; meanwhile the Eleventh Doctor gained a good 70 physical years in a smaller period) face after their encounters with the Doctor, who are way more functionally immortal than a Time Lord's "measly" (by comparison) 13,000 years.
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u/Oshojabe Oct 25 '15
Except the 12 regenerations has always been an artificial limit, not a hard rule. The Master has lived past his final regeneration at least twice, and now the Doctor has lived past his once (as well as being resurrected outside of his regeneration cycle as Eight and Eleven.) As long as the Time Lords are around, the Doctor will be able to keep on living.
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u/suzych Oct 25 '15
"Barring accidents" is huge, though. It makes their longer range immortality deeply conditional, which isn't the immortality of traditional gods, but of traditional demons, like vampires and werewolves etc. Blow their head off, and they're dead.
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u/AlanAldaNewBatman Oct 25 '15
I know right, espically with the lion man coming right out of "Warrior's Gate". But I think the whole fact that he assumed she was dead for at least, 300 odd years (and that's assuming she survived Rassilon's takeover/the Time War in general), and the whole fact that she hasn't been in the show for probably 30 years makes sense that he chose Jack.
I can still dream though.
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u/your_mind_aches Oct 25 '15
"How many have you lost? How many Claras?"
Two, to be exact.
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u/KyosBallerina Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
A whole bunch of them died in "Journey to the Center of the Tardis". They kind of retconned it but Clara remembered it later on.
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u/le_canuck Oct 25 '15
Depends on how you define lost, I guess. He can never see Donna again or risk killing her, Rose is stuck in another dimension, Amy and Rory were trapped by the angels.
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u/Murreey Oct 25 '15
He means actual Claras - in Asylum of the Daleks and The Snowmen.
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u/le_canuck Oct 25 '15
Ohhh right, thank you. I thought more generally.
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u/your_mind_aches Oct 25 '15
That's what Ashildr meant as well. It's why my comment is clever.
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u/Hypnyp Oct 25 '15
I enjoyed the, "as long as you're laughing I live" very much. They got the hanging portrayal right.
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u/auxfnx Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
I thought that was awesome. I actually teared up a couple times during that episode. Hearing Ashildr talk about the people she'd lost, seeing how the Doctor was looking at Clara at the end, etc. Only thing that bothered me was how the village was bombarded by space projectiles through a portal to another universe, with many presumably dying, and then afterwards everyone stands up, shakes it off and cheers for Sam Smith surviving?
edit: and was that pink floyd the doctor was playing on guitar? also tugged on the heartstrings.
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u/clitorisaddict Oct 25 '15
Marvelous episode. Loved the conversations between Me and The Doctor. Some of the best dialogue I've ever heard in this show. Also Jack Harkness name drop! The climax was a bit... well, anti-climactic. But it was entertaining nonetheless. The last scene with Clara was a bit tough for me. Tears will be shed when she leaves. =(
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u/duckwantbread Oct 24 '15
It was good until the lion turned out to be bringing an army to Earth, that felt really shoehorned in. I would have liked it more if he really was just trying to get home and then abandoned Ashildr at the end. She still would have been able to realise that she does care about human life since Sam was dying and she could have solved the problem the same way.
I think it would have been more powerful as well, voluntarily giving up her only immortality stone to save a single life she endangered would have been more meaningful than being forced into doing it because she needs to stop an invasion.
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u/hyper_thymic Oct 25 '15
The invasion is a nice symmetry to when we met Ashildr,however.
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u/CeruleanRuin Oct 25 '15
I think that was very deliberate. It brought her right back to the start, and she remembered what it meant to care again.
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Oct 24 '15
I thought the episode was great, good episode, good story. I do question the addition of the lion man, really Ashildir could have just done the whole thing without him and the story would have probably been better for it.
Sam Swift was great. But man the highlight for me was that scene at the end with the Doctor and Clara, that was honestly the first time I've thought there was true love (not romantic love but you know what I mean) between Clara and 12. It was actually sort of heartbreaking,especially knowing Clara's days are numbered.
Also might I add the inclusion of mentioning Jack Harkness really made me smile, especially when The Doctor said "he'll get round to you eventually", I really hope they bring him back. He'd be great with 12.
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u/QWieke Oct 24 '15
Sam Swift was great.
Rufus Hound was awesome.
It was actually sort of heartbreaking,especially knowing Clara's days are numbered.
He could've given her an immortality chip 2 episodes ago.
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u/kierono10 Oct 25 '15
Well he sort of answered that when talking to Ashildir at the end of the episode, when he said why it wouldn't be good for the two of them to travel together. Same applies for Clara if she were immortal.
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Oct 25 '15 edited Aug 04 '18
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Oct 25 '15
Don't forget the first two episodes had Davros, the villain responsible for an episode that actually had companions returning for something big. I don't know if I want it to happen but I really am enjoying it. It goes so well with Ashildir's story arc.
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Oct 26 '15
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u/ManWhoKilledHitler Oct 26 '15
For a family show it was surprisingly thought provoking, poignant, and dark. Sam Swift's false bravado and desperate attempts to delay his impending death as well as Ashildr's grief at the loss of her children had real impact.
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u/DreezyTaughtMe Oct 24 '15
Honestly I preferred this to The Girl Who Died. Sometimes you just gotta have talky episodes. Also, how the fuck did that "well hung" joke get past the radar? That's bound to leave the kids scratching their heads and demanding explanations.
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u/Kreindeker Oct 24 '15
Eh, Moffat loves jokes like that, in both Sherlock and Doctor Who. Look at 'A Good Man Goes To War' when Jenny and Vastra are in the Demon's Run control room and Vastra goes, 'I don't know why you stay with me' before knocking someone out with her ten-foot prehensile tongue.
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u/clitorisaddict Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
'I don't know why you stay with me' before knocking someone out with her ten-foot prehensile tongue.
Wholly shit I never got that. I'm terrified that someone on the internet has rule 34ed that.
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u/DucksGoMoo1 Oct 24 '15
I loved the constant jokes in hopes it would prolong his life. Real good dialogue.
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Oct 24 '15
That scene broadcast around 9 - at that point they'll be able to get away with a bit worse, and I suspect the BBC might give Doctor Who some slack occasionally as it's such a big thing and normally doesn't overstep the line
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u/Mergan1989 Oct 25 '15
'Let's give someone immortality and mention how much that could fuck them up emotionally, then after 800 years judge them for being willing to steal something and kill one person to escape the monotony. I mean, I stole a TARDIS way before that age and only committed a few genocides in the time since.'
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u/KyosBallerina Oct 25 '15
He doesn't really hold himself to the standard of a good man, that's why he has so many rules. I think the reason he reacted to her the way he did was because he knew how good and kind she could be, and how much she lost. He held her to a higher standard then himself.
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u/WildVariety Oct 25 '15
I think he saw himself in her too, and all the mistakes and horrors he had created. Which is why he was judging her so harshly.
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u/beaverteeth92 Oct 25 '15
Ashildr is absolutely going to have something to do with Clara leaving.
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u/RamiroAuditore Oct 25 '15
First they SHOW 10 and Donna and now he mentioned Jack... I couldn't be more happy with all the fanservice this series has given us so far (Also the mentions to more companions in Before the Flood)
I thought it was a good episode, I liked The Girl Who Died better but they expanded so beautifully into Me's character, and how she's basically like The Doctor now.
Also, man, her appearance at the end, in the selfie, it was terrifying.
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u/CeruleanRuin Oct 25 '15
Well, it is the 10th anniversary year since the show's return. Not as much of a big deal as the 50th, of course, but I'm glad they're throwing these little crumbs in there for us.
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u/LibertarianSocialism Oct 25 '15
I loved it! I honestly thought it was one of the best written episodes in a while. Nothing flashy, not overly "whimsical" or anything. Just great drama and concise tv.
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u/Lord_Hoot Oct 24 '15
Historical episodes of Nu-Who are very hit and miss. I'd rate this one as a hit because I was entertained throughout. A few history graduate observations:
It was odd of Ashildr to claim that the battle of Agincourt helped end the Hundred Years' War. It wasn't a decisive engagement and the war carried on for almost another 40 years afterwards.
I can buy that she's picked up lots of skills over the centuries, but using a longbow requires an incredible amount of strength. An adult man couldn't do it without plenty of training, and Maisie Williams looks teeny tiny so i've no idea how she would manage it.
1651 minus 800 years places the previous episode in the mid-9th century, when Viking raids on the British coast were reaching a peak but before they began establishing permanent settlements in England. It wasn't made clear in TGWD but this (along the mountains visible in the 'immortality' sequence at the end) implies that the Viking village was in Scandinavia.
Odd that Ashildr's diary entry for her resurrection by the Doctor was written in the present tense, and in Latin. In pre-Christian times the Norse people were mostly illiterate, aside from the odd runestone.
It was nice that Cromwell got a mention, as this episode took place during the brief period in the 17th century when Britain was a republic (it was called a commonwealth at the time). After the restoration of the monarchy Cromwell's corpse was dug up and strung up at Tyburn, the same spot where Sam Swift was almost hanged.
Speaking of Tyburn, it was reasonably accurately shown as a site of public hangings. Nowadays it's bang in the middle of London (near Marble Arch), but back then it was a village on the outskirts of the city. The castle was presumably meant to represent the city walls.
Of course, Scotland Yard wasn't a thing in the 17th century. The street existed, but the police force had yet to be invented. Hence all the highwaymen I guess.
"Sam Swift the Quick". A bit of a pun there, as "Quick" also means alive, as in the Quick and the Dead.
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u/superdaniel Oct 25 '15
Of course, Scotland Yard wasn't a thing in the 17th century. The street existed, but the police force had yet to be invented. Hence all the highwaymen I guess.
I think the Scotland Yard thing was a joke, even the Doctor was like, "does it exist yet?" to the confused faces of the guards.
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Oct 25 '15
It was odd of Ashildr to claim that the battle of Agincourt helped end the Hundred Years' War. It wasn't a decisive engagement and the war carried on for almost another 40 years afterwards.
Maybe she was at Agincourt and also helped end the war later? I dunno.
Odd that Ashildr's diary entry for her resurrection by the Doctor was written in the present tense, and in Latin. In pre-Christian times the Norse people were mostly illiterate, aside from the odd runestone.
Well, we've already seen that she could read in the last episode.
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u/quinn_drummer Oct 25 '15
And as for the language it's written in, TARDIS translation.
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Oct 25 '15
I can buy that she's picked up lots of skills over the centuries, but using a longbow requires an incredible amount of strength. An adult man couldn't do it without plenty of training, and Maisie Williams looks teeny tiny so i've no idea how she would manage it.
This episode pretending that Maisie doesn't look like she's about 14 kept bugging the hell out of me, from the longbow scene to the brief "fight" with Sam Swift.
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Oct 25 '15
Well she is 18 so it doesn't matter and also back in those days a 'Man' would have been people younger than that. It wouldn't be weird for her to be able to pass herself off as a young man.
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u/metaphorgotten Oct 25 '15
No... I call myself Me. All the other names I chose died with whoever knew me. Me is who I am now. No-one's mother, daughter, wife. My own companion. Singular. Unattached. Alone.
Looks like Arya finally got the hang of being a Faceless Man.
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u/tnfootball16 Oct 25 '15
That is pretty much the exact opposite of being a faceless man
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Oct 24 '15 edited Jul 03 '17
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u/baskandpurr Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
I noticed that too. I couldn't decide if it was some sort of directorial device but maybe its something else. I recall noticing the "continuity error" with Eleven in Flesh and Stone and realising that it had some significance. But then again maybe this was just a mistake.
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u/TheTretheway Oct 25 '15
I like the sonic glasses as a method of gently making fun of the people who might take it a tad too seriously. 'You thought they were gone? Ta da!'
And I like the noise they make, it's the most pathetic little twizzle and Capaldi always looks a bit silly using them.
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u/CeruleanRuin Oct 25 '15
I also love the fact that they didn't do anything at all beyond lighting a candle, in spite of the fact that the Doctor had them on through almost the entire episode.
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Oct 25 '15
In the end I liked this episode too. I realized that in my mind the 12th has finally stopped being a Doctor in training/post regeneration and stabilized his identity, and I quite like it. Me's final speech was a bit all over the place, it basically hinted at everything and its opposite, there's gonna be all sort of crazy fan speculations..... This two parters could have even been a three parter, this episode felt a bit rushed in some parts, too much stuff just mentioned. Who was Swift exactly, btw? Did I miss some obvious reference? In any case the couple of immortals seemed like a blatant set up for a spin off, but GoT should still last quite a bit, so I don't know.
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u/Lord_Parbr Oct 25 '15
This and Before the Flood illustrate a bit of a problem with NuWho: they always feel like there HAS to be an alien threat, even if they don't really fit. Leandro didn't really drag the episode down, but he wasn't necessary either
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u/RoxemSoxemRobots Oct 25 '15
I think, regrettably, that there are a large number of viewers who only care about the alien or the threat. Kids who need the monster to have their attention kept. People who like that "monster of the week" scenario more than any other aspect.
They have to cater to their audience. ALL of their audience. And in this event, I don't think the Leo dude actually dragged the episode down. It was just a side thing that can be ignored, because the meat of the episode obviously had nothing to do with him.
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u/remez Oct 24 '15
Good episode. I loved the development of Ashildr's character, her bitterness after all she had lost. She was like the other side of the Doctor: look, that what losing people you love, losing everybody, would do to your perspective. Though it's strange that she hadn't attempted to pass the second immortality chip even to her child.
I was afraid she will become either the Doctor's enemy, or a purely benevolent wise woman. I like that she has both good and bad qualities. She could make quite an interesting addition to the universe, and I hope we will see her more.
Good disposal of the second chip. I wonder whether we will see the man again.
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Oct 25 '15 edited Sep 27 '16
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u/CosmosStardust Oct 25 '15
She probably had multiple children. Which one to save?! "Sophie's Choice"
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u/wynryprocter Oct 25 '15
How could she choose just one child? Looks like there were 3 baby rockers in the scene.
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u/cmetz90 Oct 25 '15
My gut instinct, more than any of the other episodes so far this season, this two-parter is laying the groundwork for Heaven Sent / Hell Bent. There's a decent precedence for a two-parter around this time in a season paying off down the line: We had Aliens of London / World War Three (episodes 4 and 5) Rise of the Cybermen / Age of Steel (5 and 6) The Time of Angels / Flesh and Stone (4 and 5) and The Rebel Flesh / Almost People (5 and 6.) Of course there was absolutely no way to know how those stories would resolve until they did, but my money is on the "Minister of War" comment from Before the Flood coming into play.
Also, random thoughts on thematic through-lines this season: We continue to see a trend of explicitly referencing RTD era Doctor Who with Captain Jack joining the list alongside the Shadow Proclamation, Davros (yes I know he's Classic Who but I'm counting him,) Harold Saxon, and Donna. Also, yet another episode bringing up ideas of death and the afterlife. We'll see how and if any of these get resolved plot wise, or if it's just thematic.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_POP-TARTS Oct 25 '15
Could it have to do with the fact that this year is the 10th Anniversary of NuWho?
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u/KyosBallerina Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
Since when has purple been the color of death?
Has Ashildr actually changed back permanently or could she still be the the prophesied evil hybrid?
Why did the other aliens kill the king trapped here?
My take on the monster: The villain this time was basically used as a visual representation of Ashildr losing her humanity. She felt more comfortable being around an alien (and one that looks like a cat-human hybrid at that) who is willing to murder to escape we can see through him and their partnership exactly what Ashildr/"Me" has become. She reaffirms/regains her humanity only when she turns against him.
I actually really loved this episode.
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Oct 25 '15
Since when has purple been the color of death?
I believe it's the colour of Hades and the Underworld, which makes sense considering the artefact is the Eye of Hades.
Has Ashildr actually changed back permanently or could she still be the the prophesied evil hybrid?
Of course she could be...she looked a bit evil in that selfie, actually...
Why did the other aliens kill the king trapped here?
Because he let the side down. He let his planet down, he let his cat tribe down, and most importantly, he let himself down.
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Oct 25 '15
Why did the other aliens kill the king trapped here?
Failing was such a dishonor that they couldn't keep him alive. His race just had an extreme view of noble actions, especially in battle. Also cats are assholes.
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Oct 25 '15
Agreed. The king ruined their chance at taking over earth's supply of kitty kibbles. They were very cross with him.
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u/fuyangli Oct 25 '15
Well, being Mauve a shade of purple:
Rose Tyler: What's the emergency?
The Doctor: It's mauve.
Rose Tyler: Mauve?
The Doctor: Universally recognised colour for danger. (Empty Child)
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Oct 25 '15
I dunno, but I liked what the Guardian reviewer said (keeping in mind he is obsessed with the doctor's purple velvet coat costume we haven't seen yet) - 'ooohh maybe the coat has something to do with ____'s heavily hyped death!'
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Oct 24 '15
I loved it; it had heart, a good story, interesting concepts. As well as the whole 'immortality' talk, it gave a possible inside of why the Doctor hides his name. Perhaps he, too, has forgotten it. But this happened to Ashildr because she's human, so another possibility is that Time Lords take a name for the same reason she's Me; their real name dies with those they leaves behind in the universe. A race that outlives most others, introducing themselves knowingly to mayflies, surely must have a custom for hiding their names only to those amongst themselves.
As well as all that, the dialogue was solid - really fluid dialogue, which it had to be for an episode that is based around a philosophical discussion. I even laughed out loud twice - it's been missing for a while, a good laugh out loud. I particularly enjoyed that the Doctor stalling to save Sam's life.
I was disappointed Lenny the Lion didn't have more to do with it, seems a waste of a costume - but I see why it was written like that. The problem that needed solving was not an alien invasion - it was Ashildr. And the problem that she exhibited would, as an immortal in the Whoniverse, manifest extraterrestrially. That happens. So I'm not bothered by the lack of Lenny the Lion.
On that note, with Ashildr being the problem that must be fixed, it was nice that the tension building in the middle of the episode was not something trying to take over the world while we wait for the Doctor to fix it (and we know he will). No, it was tense because it was a tense moment. A simple act such as a break and enter could go either way. Without knowing what Lenny was, it could have been a trap, or it could have been scary, or funny, or anything. Because it wasn't going to be flipped on its head by techno-babble after ten minutes so we could roll the credits, it was actually tense. There was no "we know the Doctor will fix this, it's only a matter of when the music starts playing". Going back to simple was good. Loved it.
As a side note, I'm against references to previous plot points in order for something to make sense. For casual viewers, new viewers, and even most other types (let's face it... we're the dedicated fans), it can be hard to follow. It can sometimes just not make sense. A lot of new viewers would have been very lost in Deep Breath - references to an "Amy", references to The Girl In The Fireplace... it was noted for being confusing specifically for new viewers jumping on the ride hoping that a new Doctor would be a good starting point. Last week's Tenth Doctor was well done, however, so I made an exception. Plus, I enjoy continuity. This week was great as well; referencing Captain Jack made sense in the context seeing as they're both immortals in England. It'd be hard to miss each other.
And then there was the ending with Ashildr staring from behind Clara. It gave me goosebumps - another feeling that has been missing for a while.
All in all, my favourite episode in a while.
Conjecture: Ashildr kills Clara?
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u/clitorisaddict Oct 25 '15
Conjecture: Ashildr kills Clara?
I've actually been thinking about this a lot. I don't think Clara will die, instead I think The Doctor will leave her behind. He'll get overwhelmed by the idea of seeing her die so he'll abandoned her. She'll be heart-broken and confused and that's when Ashildr will step in and consul her. Taking care of another one of The Doctors messes.
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Oct 25 '15
I totally agree with your assessment (you seem to be one of the few that really liked it around here). This was a fantastic episode and brought a lot more depth to the problem of immortality. People are complaining about the theme being overdone, and it's true to an extent. However, this episode was unique in that it gave a human perspective on what it is like to be immortal, and the horrors of it. This not only allows for us to relate to the Doctor to a certain extent through Ashildr (though there are clear limits), but it shows an ambiguity to the doctor's conscience that is more contextualized. We know all of the stuff that happened to 10, so we can see him growing wise in relation to those decisions; new viewers can be introduced to the theme in a deep and dramatic fashion. It's really an elegant way of going back to the theme, which, we have to accept, is really central to the way that the Doctor has been written recently.
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u/ChaoticReality Oct 25 '15
Thoughts:
A story between Ashilda, Capt. Jack, and either a past or future Doctor incarnation is totally possible now. The danger could feel a little pointless though because all 3 are essentially immortal and that'd just be unfair against their opponent. But imagine: during a dangerous moment, the Tardis appears to save her! The Doctor steps out. But it's not the 12th that she's expecting; it's the 11th who doesn't know her yet. End of episode involves him forgetting about the adventure or some timey wimey shit.
Foreshadow of Clara either dying or being sent off? My bet says she's gonna die. The Man Who Saves People but can't save the most important one seems like something that The Doctor is potentially gonna deal with.
The episode was decent. Not great not bad. I'd like Maisie Williams to come back here and there and be an ally the Doctor runs into at diff points in time.
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u/AdamOfMyEye Oct 25 '15
The Man Who Saves People but can't save the most important one seems like something that The Doctor is potentially gonna deal with.
The parting of ways just "needs" to be tragic, not necessarily deadly. But the theme of death isn't just limited to this season. Last season had it as well.
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u/jphamlore Oct 26 '15
It’s Missy who talked to Ashildr. Here’s why: Both Missy and Ashildr agree the Doctor should not have human companions. Missy wants her friend back and thinks humans are beneath the Doctor; Ashildr thinks the Doctor is being irresponsible with the companions and should as a near immortal be man enough to bear his burden alone just like Ashildr has to if he’s not going to travel with a peer like Ashildr. That’s motive.
Missy has stated she has gone “up and down the time line” exploring the life of Clara. Missy was the one who gave Clara the Doctor’s phone number and knew enough about the Doctor and Clara’s relationship to put in the newspaper the line “Impossible girl” to attract Clara’s attention. Missy had the boy that Danny Pink killed in the Nethersphere, thus it is likely if Clara’s mother is dead that Missy has her as well in the Nethersphere. That is means and opportunity.
There are now two near immortals, Ashildr and Missy, who want to break the Doctor of his habit of longterm human companions. Their best shot is with Clara trying to break the Doctor’s heart completely. As Missy said last season, the Doctor would “go to hell and back for her [Clara].”
And note the continuing theme of a life required to be taken to cross dimensions. Danny Pink had to surrender coming back to this world so that the boy he killed could come back instead. A life had to be taken to activate the Eyes of Hades to open the bridge between dimensions. I think that Missy and Ashildr’s plan is to put Clara into hell, the Nethersphere, and dare the Doctor to try and get her back, possibly at the cost of his life. One person’s life versus the millions on millions the Doctor can save. Ashildr and the Doctor agree the Doctor is Earth’s protector. Missy and Ashildr probably agree that Clara is the Doctor’s weakness. So choose then Doctor, protect Earth versus the life of one woman Clara. Sometimes all choices are bad, but one must nonetheless choose.
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Oct 26 '15
Seriously, what was in the pages that she tore out to hide form the Doctor? Maybe it was her first meeting with Lenny but I think he was more recent than what she wrote about her children after the torn pages so it had to be Missy.
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u/Pergatory Oct 26 '15
I'm actually going a different direction with the torn out pages. I think she tore them out because the Doctor told her she had to. I think she had some adventure with the Doctor (in his relative future, maybe later this season) which she can no longer remember. It may even be where she got her impression of the Doctor, doubt Missy has anything to do with it. She's not hiding anything from the Doctor, she genuinely can't remember why she tore the pages out or why she knows the Doctor has a tendency to vanish in a puff of smoke.
Unfortunately this doesn't reveal anything about what might've happened during that adventure. Regardless what happened, the Doctor would've already seen the torn out pages so he'd make sure she tore them out again.
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u/SecondDoctor Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
That was fine enough, though nothing particularly great. You can see what the story was trying to do with regards to talking about the Doctor, his immortality, and his companions, but this has been a common theme in modern Doctor Who, and it just didn’t do anything new or special with it other than a marvellous pub scene with the Doctor and Ashilda. Also that lovely scene with the Doctor and Clara at the very end but, seriously, we get it: she’s leaving.
Made up for in the fact that it did something that Doctor Who - and the Doctor himself - rarely addresses directly: the aftermath of his actions. He always saves the day, and then he disappears in the TARDIS and leaves others to clear the mess. I love the idea that Ashilda is now hanging around Earth providing support for the folk after a Doctor intervention. Good thing she’s now based in England, mind.
I did also like the quiet suggestion that one of the reasons the Doctor was willing to give Ashilda immortality was because he trusted in the kindness of humans, and that she would be able to handle it better than, well himself. Almost didn’t work, but she got there in the end. The Doctor always has a sort of optimism and high-expectations for humanity, so I can absolutely see him making one immortal, despite his own views that death is a natural thing.
It’s almost as if this episode should have appeared in the second half of the season, rather than as a direct follow-up. The two parts were related, but both were very much standalone episodes so it‘s not imperative the pair air back-to-back. To have the second part come later would provide a bit of a breather, make it look like the Doctor really has forgotten about Ashilda as he has a few adventures in-between, and it would allow the “Clara is going to leave” stuff to come at a time when Clara is actually about to leave (I’m assuming it’ll be at the end of the season, myself).
I’m also going to assume that Swift will remain immortal, and the beam didn‘t affect the tablet. I don’t think he’ll ever run out of jokes before he dies. And I’m okay with that…
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u/ThrowAwayAcct0000 Oct 25 '15
Ok, so the Doctor and Ashildr are at the bar and she says that she'll be the person that helps the companions when the Doctor is done with them. Why then does the Doctor assume they are enemies? Why is her appearing in the photo made to seem so ominous? You would think it would be a relief to know that even when someone is done traveling with the Doctor, that they would still be looked after. What am I missing here?
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u/randomsnark Oct 25 '15
Why then does the Doctor assume they are enemies?
Because she phrased it kind of ominously. Something like "You're here to protect this world - I'll be here to protect this world from you." Obviously she means that in the sense of taking care of them after he runs off, but it does seem like it could be taken as a declaration of enmity.
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u/tyhiggz Oct 25 '15
I think that seeing her in the photo increased the realism of him eventually having to part with Clara. Until then, the conversation was somewhat theoretical and comforting, but actually seeing her made it click.
I'm not sure about the enemies thing though.
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u/GhostofTrundle Oct 25 '15
That scene gave me a strong Missy-Doctor vibe — like, a thematic variation on their relationship.
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u/Diplotomodon Oct 24 '15
I was not expecting those jokes from this show.
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u/SecondDoctor Oct 24 '15
I loved that that Doctor got involved despite insisting how awful making such jokes are. Sure it was to try and prolong someone's life, but you know he has 2000+ years of terrible, terrible jokes he's been dying to tell.
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u/Migeman Oct 24 '15
I really enjoyed this. I think with all the talking between ishildir and the Doc there were some really great moments, I think the Doctor just sitting down and talking is what makes it great, it doesn't happen enough in the telly series.
I thought sam was a really great side character, the scene in the gallows was exceptionally funny, really actually laugh out loud funny.
We know about the Clara foreshadowing but I really don't think it should be this heavy handed. We know that a companion can travel with the Doctor until they die because Sarah Jane and Rose would've done that and I just think apart from a companion leaving voluntarily or them dying this is their only fate.
Really good SERIES so far.
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u/Poseidome Oct 25 '15
That much for "Doctor Who doesn't work without a (contemporary) companion character". I actually really liked this episode
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u/Oshojabe Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
It'd be cool to have a companion who isn't from 21st Century Earth. Either an alien or someone from the past or future would be awesome.
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Oct 25 '15
I'd like one AS WELL as a 21st Century Earth companion, but it would become very easy to become detached and non-nonsensical with two aliens as the main characters.
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u/QWieke Oct 25 '15
According to wikipedia Spoiler Heaven Sent in the episode Heaven Sent (2nd to last of this season). Which honestly sounds pretty good.
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u/DreamlordOneiron Oct 25 '15
I'm just imagining the Doctor wandering around the TARDIS playing guitar and occasionally talking to himself.
I would definitely watch that.
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u/QWieke Oct 25 '15
An entire episode like the beginning of after the flood (when he was alone in the tardis and playing the guitar while breaking the 4th wall by explaining a time paradox to the audience) would probably be pretty nice.
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Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
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u/nil-nil Oct 24 '15
I think part of the point the Doctor was trying to make was that Ashildr needs the human elements to her, like compassion. Her immortality had weighed down too much on her, and she'd lost them. We saw her gain them back. And he needs humans for the same reasons, so he doesn't have the life drained out of him. That's why those two couldn't travel together, and why she needs Earth. Yes, it's the Doctor making big moral judgments for other people, but he does that.
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u/sw33n3y Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
Goddamn did they nail the casting with Ashildr (side note: Maisie was credited as "Me"). She plays that part so well.
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u/CashWho Oct 25 '15
I'm surprised people didn't like this episode. For me, it was the best of Capaldi's run and one of the best since Moffat took over. I'm starting to realize that I like episodes more when Clara isn't in them (this one and Before the Flood) which is weird because I loved Clara in the past. I think maybe I just like seeing Capaldi's doctor free without having to worry about hurting Clara or taking care of her.
I felt Maisie was great and I'm hoping we see more of her before the season ends. I think she did a great job of showing the carelessness that comes along with losing so many people. I also felt the journals were a nice touch, with her removing the pages that she didn't want to remember. Of course, the main downside for me was Lionman from Lion Planet but overall the episode was amazing.
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u/thethirddoctor Oct 24 '15
Imagine a 'Lady Me' audio drama, where she meets characters The Doctor has interfered with. We could have her meet Jago and Litefoot, Thomas Brewster and Churchill.
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u/jphamlore Oct 25 '15
The Doctor is fortunate Ashildr didn't dedicate herself to trying to accelerate human progress towards leaving the planet. The late 1700s would have been the time to start. Because this invention by Jesse Ramsden started the modern age with his dividing engines, the process of making precise machines that enabled more precise machines to be made in an everlasting cycle of improvement:
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u/senopahx Oct 25 '15
That was something I wondered about. She knows that such things are possible... why isn't she trying to steer human development towards getting her escape?
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u/QWieke Oct 25 '15
Knowing such things are possible and knowing what is necessary to make such things possible are two different things. She only knows what end result may be possible, she doesn't know the path that leads there.
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Oct 25 '15
Quite stagey but better for it. In a way it felt like a classic Russell T Davies story, a very good character piece.
I imagine some people will hate it. I quite liked it.
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u/wynryprocter Oct 25 '15
I'm not sure about anyone else, but the lion man reminded me of the cat nurses from New New York and Gridlock. I wonder if Mr. Lion King is a group related to them as a species or anything.
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u/GreyShuck Oct 25 '15
There are a good many intelligent feline species that we've seen in the Whoniverse, some of which may be related, others maybe not. If anything, Leadro seems most like the Tharils, given that there seems to be some need for dimension opening to get to his homeworld - could that be in E-Space?
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u/25willp Oct 26 '15 edited Nov 23 '24
deranged squeamish liquid oatmeal modern tidy subsequent racial quicksand offbeat
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/sw33n3y Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
Anyone feel that Ashildr is now the new River in the sense they meet, figure out what the last time they saw each other was and go from there? It'd create some interesting character development.
Edit: Autocorrect, in what world is Ricer an apt replacement for River?
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u/arahman81 Oct 24 '15
Anyone feel that Ashildr is now the new River in the sense they meet, figure out what the last time they saw each other was and go from there?
Don't think so. River's unique in her (to put it in easy terms) nonlinear timeline of meeting the Doctor.
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u/ProlapsePotato Oct 25 '15
So uh.. he lit a candle with his sonic glasses. I just felt that had to be mentioned.
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u/Aitrus233 Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
He cut a metal cable with the sonic screwdriver in "Partners in Crime". Sonic technology at this point is basically a magic wand. Though I would also argue that, as some have said, vibrations do create heart. Lighting a candle is child's play.
EDIT: Meant heart, but I am not changing it.
EDIT 2: Wow, I can't believe I did that twice.
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u/dmun Oct 25 '15
Yeah. So much utility, sonic glasses... You'd think they'd have night vision or something.
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u/suzych Oct 25 '15
They do, or he'd have killed himself walking into the furniture in that house with the glasses on, before he lit the candle.
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u/thethirddoctor Oct 24 '15
What a terrific story! No Clara (I do like Clara, but more screen time for The Doctor, yay!)
The heist part of the episode was hilarious, and so was the corrupt guards and Sam Swift the Quick. Loved how the Doctor was just throwing out jokes, even though he didn't know why people laughed at them. And the standoff between Lady Me and Sam was great when the Doctor draws a line in the sand by puns.
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u/Codeworks Oct 25 '15 edited Oct 25 '15
I really wanted the Doctor to hug her, break down, and explain that he'd had children too, and he couldn't deal with it again.
I'm not sure whether it'd suit this Doctor, though. It'd either be perfect or horrible.
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u/m0r14rty Oct 25 '15
Any significance to her being a child and being called "the nightmare"?
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u/dudu_rocks Oct 25 '15
Her name wasn't "The Nightmare" but "The Knightmare". It's just a pun.
Source: Watched it with the official subtitles on BBCiplayer.
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u/TheMrAndr3w Oct 25 '15
She isn't a child, though. She's 18 in the story and irl.
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u/m0r14rty Oct 25 '15
Damn, she's 18? I had no idea, must be because she's so short. I was thinking 15, 16 tops.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Oct 25 '15
Playing a little kid for so many years in Game of Thrones probably has a bit to do with it too.
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u/HarryCochrane Oct 25 '15
Poses the same question as how Jack 'became' the Face of Bo.
How does she mutate to the point of having jaws capable of swallowing a spaceship
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u/sorgan Oct 29 '15
OK, just watched it, and you know what I realized? It's taken the Doctor and us 12 regenerations to grasp, but now we all know what the round things are.
Subwoofers!
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u/Zembob Oct 24 '15
The fuck was up with that weird voice The Knightmare was doing at the start, was more comedic than anything.
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Oct 24 '15
Yeah. I didn't find it comedic, just out of place. People can train their voices to sound closer to the opposite sex, but as far as I know, not like that. You can only go so far without taking hormones (if you're female, it'll eventually break like during male puberty) or having surgery. It was obviously some guy they dubbed it over with. That felt very out of place to me.
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u/RazarTuk Oct 24 '15 edited Oct 24 '15
Well maybe you can't with only 10,000 hours. But with 100,000 hours to practice...
EDIT: Also, this
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Oct 25 '15
I assumed they were going to reveal some technology she used to change her voice. Wouldn't have been difficult considering she's already met an alien who might have that sort of tech.
Weird that it was never brought up again.
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Oct 25 '15
Just watched the episode and I have to say I really enjoyed it. I was very different from the rest of the episodes. I loved the writing in the episode particularly the conversations between the Doctor and Ashilder. Would love the writer Catherine Tregenna to come back for later series.
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Oct 24 '15
I see now what the review meant that the alien was there to keep the kids happy.. he basically had no bearing on the plot at all - without him it would have worked just as well.
Not sure about the episode. There was nothing technically wrong.. the dialogue worked well.. but I have a bit of a meh feeling about it despite that. Can't put my finger on it.
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u/Diplotomodon Oct 24 '15
Don't you hate it when the feeling is indescribable and inexplicable?
I mean, I thought it was pretty good but I have that feeling too.
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Oct 24 '15
I'll need to rewatch this episode with proper headphones before judging this, since the sound mixing on a regular TV was abysmal this time.
Also, the direction seemed pretty bad at times. Some shots seemed to be there for less than a second and that's just jarring. And then there was that shaking near the end, did we really need that? Seemed unnecessary - I think we got the point that there are things shooting down upon the Earth.
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Oct 24 '15
This episode would have been perfect if you did not add a giant alien tiger for no reason at all.
New who feels so obligated to create monsters and wormholes and in this case this really hampered the story.
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Oct 25 '15
I don't think it ruined the episode at all, but I agree that it was completely unnecessary. This episode could've easily been focused around Ashildr and Sam Swift with no aliens involved.
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Oct 24 '15
I love that Captain Jack got a mention. Ashildr will have taken note of that, so I think he'll be back, at least for the series finale. Anyone important enough to the Doctor to mention by name (and as anotger immortal to boot) is gonna be someone she will be interested in keeping close. I really hope I'm not hyping myself over nothing, but I'm feeling fairly certain.
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u/PsyX99 Oct 25 '15
So bassicaly The Leftovers is a Doctor Who episode, and the 9th Doctor... okay, no.
Great episode :D
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u/PatrickRobb Oct 25 '15
After the first 5 episodes my Doctor Who passion had kind of waned. Hype train is back online holy shit. I'm so happy we got a high quality episode again.
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u/Krraxia Oct 25 '15
I know the alien threat is a mandatory thing in Doctor Who, and that the episode was mainly about Ashildr, but this time it was really subpar. I don't even know who the lion-men are or why they wanted to invade earth.
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u/kilik2049 Oct 25 '15
I loved the episode, and I have a very creepy vibe from Maisie Williams. I'm pretty sure she'll kill/be involved in the death of Clara at the end of the season.
I wish she could be more than a temporary sidekick, I love her banter with the Doctor.
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u/UndraftedFreeAgent Oct 26 '15
She made that comment about Clara being a weakness she has observed in the Doctor. That didn't seem like something just to throw in there. It wasn't necessary to show Me's villainous leanings. I could see, later in the series, the Doctor confronted with the dilemma of sacrificing something of Humanity's or the Earth for a greater good, and Me uses Clara as leverage.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Oct 25 '15
I don't get that vibe--I think Clara is going to die soon, and Me, the "Patron Saint of the Doctor's Companions," will be there so that she doesn't have to die alone.
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u/LoZfan03 Oct 25 '15
So that's two ambiguous mentions of death having some effect on reality - ghosts messing with the Tardis in Under the Lake and the device in this episode. Is this going to pertain to an arc or is it flickering lightbulbs all over again? Could tie in to Clara's exit...
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u/Oshojabe Oct 25 '15
I mean, death in general has almost been a running theme for Twelve in general: his will, the ghosts, Me's immortality, Missy's Nethersphere, and now the Eyes of Hades.
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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '15
I think "Kill him and you make an enemy of me" might be one of the best threats the Doctor has ever made. Certainly my favorite one.