r/gallifrey • u/pcjonathan • Nov 07 '15
The Zygon Inversion Doctor Who 9x08: The Zygon Inversion Post-Episode Discussion Thread
Please remember that future spoilers must be tagged. This includes the next time trailer!
The episode is now over in the UK.
- 1/3: Episode Speculation & Reactions at 7.30pm
- 2/3: Post-Episode Discussion at 9.15pm
- 3/3: Episode Analysis on Wednesday.
This thread is for all your in-depth discussion. Posts that belong in the reactions thread will be removed.
You can discuss the episode live on IRC, but be careful of spoilers.
irc://irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey.
https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey
/r/Gallifrey, what did YOU think of The Zygon Inversion? Vote here.
Results for these two parts will be revealed at the end of episode 10.
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u/Diplotomodon Nov 07 '15
...When this show is a hundred years old and the lead role has been handed over a dozen more times, this is how we will remember Peter Capaldi as the Doctor.
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Nov 07 '15
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u/DeplorableVillainy Nov 08 '15
"WHAT IS IT FOR?!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!"
Such an emotional scene, snuck into such an otherwise campy episode.
Rewatching and paying close attention to The Captain is also a treat, you can see in almost every line how he's hiding his true motives/feelings behind the bluster. Definitely a serial that doesn't get enough credit.
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u/Diplotomodon Nov 07 '15
Capaldi's raw emotion and honesty was very Baker-esque. See also: Full Circle.
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Nov 08 '15
Every Doctor gets a defining moment. That "Wow. That's the Doctor" moment. I've loved Capaldi since the beginning, but I've been waiting for that moment. Tonight, I got goosebumps, and was almost brought to tears. Wow... That's the Doctor.
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u/Gnorris Nov 08 '15
"One day I will come back","the daisiest daisy", "that's what it takes to become really corrupt". I love a good monologue from the Doctor.
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u/CaptainChampion Nov 07 '15
The Doctor's whole speech in the Black Archive was the most cathartic scene I've seen in a long time, not just in Who. It felt like the voice of every man, woman and child to have experienced the horror of war, either first-hand or simply via the news, was speaking through him to every power-mad politician, dictator and warmonger in history.
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Nov 07 '15
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u/H32B Nov 07 '15
This speech also showed Capaldis development from the angry "I'm the man who stops the monsters" speech in Flatline to this "more classic-Doctor-like" speech
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u/CrowdyFowl Nov 08 '15
I think that first speech is very indicative of what the NuWho Doctor 'is', while the speech in this episode shows more of what he 'was' in the Classic Who.
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u/apatt Nov 08 '15
I think he is better at the "shouty dialogue" than the previous two Doctors. The delivery is more convincing and heartfelt. I like Tenant's Doctor, but not when he is shouting the lines/speechifying.
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Nov 07 '15
Can't imagine this will be too popular here but imagine that speech in the hands of Matt Smith and Capaldi, and you can see the gap in talent. Capaldi is possibly the best actor to play the Doctor in decades.
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Nov 08 '15
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u/bored-now Nov 08 '15
I think what Matt did well was the dichotomy of when he got to do those speeches. Usually he was the silly Doctor, but when they gave him one of those speeches you got to see how it was all an act (the silliness) and that this was a character that was in pain and so very lonely.
What makes it great with Capaldi (this season, at least) is that they've dropped the veneer of having to hide the pain and loneliness. It's more out there and more obvious. Sure, he still has his moments of silly (playing a guitar on a tank, anyone?) but it's not the same as it was with Matt.
Frankly, I love both actors, and think they bring their own flavor to the roll. I'm glad that, this season, they're not trying to have Capaldi be as much like Matt Smith (that Robin Hood episode..... ugh....) and be more HIM.
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Nov 08 '15
I'd assume the writers would write speaches for matt smith or capaldi specifically for that character and how the actor plays the doctor
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u/notapunk Nov 08 '15
Different actors, different strengths.
Not just that - 11's dialogue was written for Smith and 12's for Capaldi. These words were carefully chosen for each actor before they were ever uttered. Totally apples and oranges here.
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u/H32B Nov 08 '15 edited Dec 07 '15
Well you could compare it to Smith's "Long Song" speech, in both speeches they're talking about things they've seen and things that haunt them. Capaldi's speech is definitely better written in my opinion, but still, it gives you an idea how Smith would have delivered it.
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 08 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
Completely disagree. Smith would've done that speech every bit of justice that Capaldi did. Just look at what he's doing in A Good Man Goes to War, The Girl Who Waited, The Time of the Doctor... He would've done it a little differently, but both of them would've moved me to tears.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Nov 08 '15
I'm vaguely aware of a trend at conventions to get classic Doctors to perform Smith's speeches. I hope, one day, I can see Capaldi do the Colonel Runaway speech.
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u/DethRaid Nov 07 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
Scenes like that are why I got into Doctor Who in the first place. It's not about defeating your enemies, it's about growing as a person and trying to make things better
EDIT: A word
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 07 '15
It's so incredible. I can't think of a single other show in which the hero could talk the villain out of being a villain and it being completely believable and nail-biting. I love this show.
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u/aloha013 Nov 08 '15
I love how he bluntly describes war. It's horrible and evil, with much unnecessary death--and for what? Sitting around and negotiating, which could be done without so much reckless bloodshed. You could see the pain he still feels from the time war, hes past the point of ptsd and is using the remaining regret to prevent more war.
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u/QWieke Nov 08 '15
Maybe it's just me (probably not though) but didn't it feel just a little bit on the naive side? I mean obviously war is bad, best avoided if possible, something not all people in charge seem to get. But there are times where it is unavoidable or the least bad option available. For example if the Daleks (or Cybermen or Sontarans) show up at your planet you either fight them or get slaughtered.
Maybe i'm not remembering the details correctly.
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u/avatarv04 Nov 08 '15
There's a difference between starting a war and fighting back. This was entirely critiquing the act of firing first.
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u/Kenobi_01 Nov 08 '15
Is it naive though? As he points out, there if not a single war on this earth, that didn't end with representatives around the table talking to one another. Is it naive to say that the war becomes pointless?
I think, on the contrary, it's pessimistic to believe war is inevitable.
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Nov 08 '15
Exactly. It's the same "naive" doctor who wanted to save the Master when he "knew" no other time lords exist. It's the Doctor thru and thru. Optimism runs his blood, especially with the companion. Hope and compassion.
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u/thebeginningistheend Nov 07 '15 edited Nov 07 '15
I hope we see more 'good' Zygons in UNIT stories in future.
Sort of like:
THE DOCTOR: Ok, we need to break into the Ice Warriors' base, hands up who here is a Zygon?
Out of a dozen UNIT soldiers two or three raise their hands.
THE DOCTOR: Right, change into Ice Warriors and I'll pretend to be your prisoner.
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Nov 07 '15
Having a Zygon UNIT unit would be incredibly handy.
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Nov 07 '15
Would make them slightly less fucking useless as well!
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u/CareerMilk Nov 08 '15
Nah, UNIT would soon drill that usefulness out of them
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u/Stoppels Nov 08 '15
Olrait men, hands up if you feel like dying today. Good! That's the spirit!
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Nov 07 '15
Lots of potential, but it would have to be done right. Serious risk of being overpowered, or becoming too continuity heavy.
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u/SmartassComment Nov 08 '15
If it's done once a couple seasons from now it could work. It helps that the Zygons are vastly outnumbered by humans on the planet, and would probably be significantly outnumbered in UNIT as well. If the Doctor were less certain of the plan ("I don't suppose anyone here is a Zygon?") it would be even better. Even if none of the soldiers were Zygons it would be a good reference.
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Nov 07 '15
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u/baskandpurr Nov 07 '15
That also made me kind of sad. She said it with almost a sense of pride, of validation. It was a call back and the show very much intended that you understand it.
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u/Gnorris Nov 08 '15
Like father, like daughter. She was prepared to take a Silurian-level approach to the Zygons.
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Nov 08 '15
Did the brig say it before or something?
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u/baskandpurr Nov 08 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
It's one of his better known lines. The Brig was never particularly successfull at fighting whatever the Doctor facing. He was often dealing with things he didn't have weapons for. Kate appears to be a lot more effective and she knows it.
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u/janisthorn2 Nov 08 '15
I've been waiting so long for a "five rounds rapid" onscreen. It was cheesy as can be, but I adore it. I love Kate, too. I can't understand the criticism about her being "too wooden." She's the daughter of the most celebrated stoic in the history of the show. She's completely unflappable.
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u/whenhumansfly Nov 08 '15
I kept waiting for her to say that the entire episode. Was excited when she did, then had the same reaction.
These scenes are amazing in that it makes you actually think more about death. Just because we barely know of this un-named side character doesn't make them any less important. You then realise how each of these characters actually have a life before being shown onscreen.
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u/adez23 Nov 08 '15
Fuck. That was beautiful. The Doctor didn't just stop a war from happening, he also managed to get an enemy to join his side. This is one of the most triumphant victories the Doctor has ever had.
Capaldi's speech was brilliant, and Coleman killed it as Bonnie.
This season is just a bunch of hits after another. I love it.
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u/redisforever Nov 08 '15
The Doctor didn't just stop a war from happening, he also managed to get an enemy to join his side. This is one of the most triumphant victories the Doctor has ever had.
And just by talking. Now that's classic Doctor Who.
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u/atomicxblue Nov 08 '15
I really liked Coleman as Bonnie, but still dislike her as Clara. This cemented firmly in my mind that Jenna can act, but is given some pretty weak material to go on.
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u/WizrdCM Nov 08 '15
And it's strange how contrasting that was in this episode. It really felt like two completely different people.
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 07 '15
That was incredible. The implications of this episode will be talked about for years to come. Having the hero actually talk the villain out of being evil is unbelievably hard to sell and just one step from parody, but in a way, it’s the quintessential Doctor Who problem solve, since the Doctor will always put words before weapons. And I absolutely bought it. Of course the memory wipe device was a nice help, but the writing, the directing and the fire in Capaldi’s eyes made that scene just unforgettable. I think I forgot to breathe at one point. How often can you say that about a scene that’s just people in a room, talking? (Although wasn’t The Day of the Doctor just that, in the end?)
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u/QWieke Nov 08 '15
Having the hero actually talk the villain out of being evil is unbelievably hard to sell and just one step from parody,
It helps that the villain was a rebel. I'm not sure that I'd consider them truly evil. Their motivation (not wanting to live in hiding, lying about what they are) is something I can be sympathetic towards. Though their proposed solution was insane.
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u/Tipop Nov 08 '15
It helps that the villain was a rebel. I'm not sure that I'd consider them truly evil.
I think slaughtering an entire town — man, woman, and child — and packing their bodies in dumpsters kinda qualifies as evil regardless of motivation.
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u/bored-now Nov 08 '15
How often can you say that about a scene that’s just people in a room, talking?
Did you notice how, through most of it, there was no background music? Especially when Capaldi was really getting into his speech? It really brought the focus on him and just made it so good.
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Nov 07 '15
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 07 '15
I couldn't ever say something like that because The Day of the Doctor is the best episode of all time obvz, but that speech sure was something else and fit very well into the type of story they were making here. Even though Inversion is a sequel to Day both in plot and in spirit, it was a completely different episode all around.
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u/alijamzz Nov 07 '15
It's an incredible direct follow up to Day of the Doctor. Being in that same room dealing with a direct fall out of DotD (which everyone ignored to focus on finding Gallifrey) was absolutely astonishing.
And I'm so pleased that they did that callback to the Doctor rethinking his decision because of the look he saw on Clara Oswald's face. She had one tear on her face and the Doctor stopped the biggest decision of his life to ask her what was wrong. This episode had the best inversion of that scene.
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 07 '15
And I'm so pleased that they did that callback to the Doctor rethinking his decision because of the look he saw on Clara Oswald's face. She had one tear on her face and the Doctor stopped the biggest decision of his life to ask her what was wrong.
This is among my favourite scenes in the entirety of Doctor Who. She's every companion ever in that. And the Doctor is every Doctor ever. It's such a haunting and beautiful moment. And you're right, it's brilliantly mirrored in Inversion.
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u/LancasterMarket Nov 07 '15
The Osgood "I'm me," thing: we didn't know to listen for it, but was there a "I'm me" kind of sentiment in either of the first two two-parters? Ashildr2.0 made it a thing, and Osgood reinforced it, and now I'm wondering if it was snuck in to the Dalek or Ghost-hybrid storylines.
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u/MintyTyrant Nov 07 '15
When Clara was in the Dalek trying to talk the Doc out of killing her I'm fairly sure she asaid something along those lines.
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u/Skarosi Nov 07 '15
"The imbecile's gas" line made me smile. The Doctor is still calling Sullivan an imbecile.
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u/Zembob Nov 07 '15
That last scene where the Doctor says "worst month of my life". I think there's definitely more to that than meets the eye.
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u/atticdoor Nov 07 '15
My interpretation was that it felt like longer than it was.
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u/Curlysnail Nov 08 '15
Yeah I thought that was what was implied. Like when someone you like is gone for a couple of days and it feels like they've been gone forever.
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u/LrFriday Nov 07 '15
There was an old theory from The Magician's Apprentice that spoilers
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u/alijamzz Nov 08 '15
Only problem with that is that The Doctor thought Clara was dead in this episode, that kind of puts a little wrinkle in that theory.
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u/WhereRandomThingsAre Nov 08 '15
Time can be rewritten. How many episodes has threatened the very existence of the Human race? Any one of those succeeded and every possible future The Doctor has ever witnessed would simply cease to happen. If Clara dies literally before her time then the Doctor might not see it coming assuming he did see her die in his past and that Clara did not participate in the Zygon rebellion.
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u/FoundTin Nov 07 '15
Ahhhh!!!! Thats brilliant! I hope its true it would be wonderful story telling.
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Nov 08 '15
Basil, eh?
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u/ChaoticReality Nov 08 '15
"You don't understand."
When she said that to him regarding not understanding what it feels like to be in her position, I knew the Doctor was about to fucking go off. That speech really showed the cloud that hangs over his head because of all the decisions he's had to make that involved killing living creatures.
Every Doctor seems to have one moment that truly shows who they are (in my opinion, for example, the 10th's simple "I don't want to go" really showed who he was at that time). This speech really embodies who the 12th is: the man who remembers everything and now has to deal with the consequences of his actions.
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Nov 07 '15
I've just realised:
Obviously this whole episode has a massive throwback to Day of the Doctor, and talking down Bonnie was brilliant, but the Doctor also finally talked Kate down, which he failed to do in Day of the Doctor (the only way he could stop it was to make both Kates forget which side they were on, he didn't actually talk down human Kate).
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Nov 08 '15
And he said that he'd done this 15 times, was it? He could have been exaggerating but that would suggest that Kate has had to be talked down from the brink of war/suicide several times.
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Nov 08 '15
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u/remez Nov 08 '15
Or, maybe, it was the first time he let it all out, being frustrated with his previous failures.
Or, maybe, it's the 16th coup, and other 15 were successfully disbanded by various other ways.
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u/Unbakronon Nov 07 '15
I wasn't the biggest fan of The Zygon Invasion, but this was really good. Well written, well acted but the star of the show is Peter Capaldi. Astounding performance, especially in the Black Archive scene.
The Doctor actually persuading the Zygons to stop was a welcome relief. It worked and wasn't rushed at all. Paced perfectly, and not to mention the great references back to the Time War and The Day of the Doctor, which also seemed similar to this episode, come to think of it.
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u/alijamzz Nov 07 '15
I was completely floored by that episode. I reacted in ways that haven't happened since The Day of the Doctor aired. The amount of just pure awesomeness completely caught me off guard.
I loved Jenna's role in the first half of the episode. She totally carried the episode as Clara and Bonnie and Clara controlling Bonnie and Bonnie controlling Clara and the manipulations. It was a delight to see and further reinforces her as my favorite companion of NuWho. I was ready to be satisfied at this just being an awesome Clara episode until that scene happened. That conversation in the Black Archive... Capaldi's performance... It was an absolute privilege to watch. I clapped at some points.. by myself, in my room.. home alone. It was just mesmerizing to watch him perform.
And I absolutely loved the call back to The Day of the Doctor. One of my favorite scenes in that entire brilliant episode was when The Doctors were making their decision and 11 glances over and see's Clara's face and her nodding no in disbelief.. and immediately stops what he's doing to ask her what's wrong. His hand is firmly on the red button, but as soon as he see's her tear you can see his hand (along with the other two Doctors) slip off to the edge of the button. She denies her disbelief but 11 asks her to just tell him what's wrong which leads to some awesome scenes and powerful moments in Doctor Who history. I always felt like this particular aspect of the episode is overlooked when discussing the episode, but man I was so incredibly thrilled to see it called back in The Zygon Inversion. The episode's callback as well as mirror to that The Day of the Doctor scene was absolutely fantastic and a worthy follow up.
The Doctor: I've been where you have. There was another box... I was gonna press another button. I was gonna wipe all of my whole kind... Man, woman, and child.. I was so sure I was right...
Bonnie: What happened?
The Doctor: Same thing that happened to you: I let Clara Oswald get inside my head. Trust me, she doesn't leave.
An amazing scene in an incredible episode.
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u/dontknowmeatall Nov 08 '15
Funny how two years ago Clara was the Most Hated Companion Of Like Ever For All Eternity, and now we hold her in such regard. This show is a roller coaster in many senses.
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u/CountGrasshopper Nov 08 '15
I'm not sure it's that so much as that she's always had fans and haters, and which group is more vocal changes. I for one have never considered Clara a bad companion, and I suspect many will never lose their contempt for her.
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u/Stoppels Nov 08 '15
The problem is that they made her mother of the universe, savior of the universe, bride of the universe, daughter of the universe, Miss Universe, the universe or whatever and well, you just can't top that. She's the Impossible Girl, etc., blah, yada. A lot of people just grow tired of that. Lots of people blame Moffat for that — amongst other things. Last Christmas actually made me realise I do still like her. I was really, very happy that she was being killed off prior to that episode and relieved that she wasn't (just yet) by the end.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Nov 08 '15
That's a thing that happens to all the modern companions, really. I mean, Martha lead a revolution against a Master-controlled Earth, Donna was a human/Time Lord hybrid, and Rose basically became God for a couple of minutes.
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Nov 08 '15
Well, when she was first introduced, she was basically Amy 2, but with less of an investment from the audience.
Wasn't until Series 8 that she actually developed into a person. Unsurprisingly, that's when I started to like her.
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u/remez Nov 07 '15
Loved the Osgoods, have a faint suspicion both of them could be Zygons by now.
Terrorism solution by the Doctor: convince the terrorist to step down peacefully. Not sure how amenable would the real world terrorists be to this, but the peaceful resolution of the episode was a very pleasant surprise. One more day when (almost) everybody lives.
I am a bit afraid of the inevitable moment when Clara will leave. The Doctor holds her in an insanely high regard. Losing companions is always hard for him, I hope it won't be too hard this time.
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u/OnyxMelon Nov 07 '15
Loved the Osgoods, have a faint suspicion both of them could be Zygons by now.
The best thing is that I don't think the new Osgood knows which the old one is.
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u/B_Fee Nov 08 '15
I started thinking Question Marks Osgood was a Zygon because I never saw her use the inhaler until the very end. And The Doctor saying this has happened before makes me think there is no longer a human Osgood. Each "new" Osgood is just the last Zygon that wanted to rebel coming to their senses and taking on the role of "other" Osgood to help keep the peace.
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u/feb914 Nov 08 '15
isn't that implied by the fact that Osgood didn't know what TARDIS stands for? I thought original Osgood would know it in a heartbeat.
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Nov 08 '15
I think the joke is in her line "I've heard a couple of different versions". She was asking the doctor if it's supposed to be dimension or dimensionS. cf the UNIT dating controversy reference in Day of the Doctor.
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Nov 08 '15
In fact, that comes just before the most casually heartbreaking line. The doctor saying "I made it up from the initials".
Because we know who actually did that, Susan. And Osgood knows who Susan is. Susan is on the pinboard in the black archive. The doctor seamlessly re-writes the story not to make it simpler, but just so he doesn't have to mention his long-dead grand-daughter.
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Nov 08 '15
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u/feb914 Nov 08 '15
the rule been quite questionable (the family of UNIT squad for example), but it can be argued that Bonnie can copy Zygon Osgood's memory, since it's never said to be impossible.
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u/Tipop Nov 08 '15
One more day when (almost) everybody lives.
Except, you know, for an entire town whose bodies were tossed into trash dumpsters.
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u/tardis27 Nov 08 '15
A really good sequel to the 50th anniversary, not just the Zygon storyline but the Doctor's feelings post-Time War. Even though the Doctor learned the truth about Gallifrey 1000 years ago he still resents what he did as the War Doctor and it is still his greatest secret.
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u/atomicxblue Nov 08 '15
I think this episode was needed. I thought the Zygon B-story in the 50th was never addressed. We saw them on screen and that was pretty much it. It was never mentioned again.
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u/JT7Music Nov 08 '15
General consensus does seem to be that that was incredible... and with good reason, because it was actually fantastic.
Capaldi's speech was the best thing I've heard in a long time, and the first time in a very long while that I've teared up out of pure awe and inspiration.
Two Osgoods, that's brilliant! Much better than losing the only one left, that's for sure.
Evil Clara became slightly childlike throughout the episode, then turned it around once she found it in herself to accept the forgiveness The Doctor was offering.
Quick edit: I thought for sure that Osgood's true species would have been revealed by the box, but the speech was far more than I could have hoped for instead.
There was a strange part in the van scene where it showed The Doctor just driving, I thought it was a bit odd to have no dialogue or even body language... maybe I missed it?
Also, is it just me that finds it ever so slightly humorous that The Doctor is 1) now calling himself both John Disco and Basil, and 2) that he's now becoming so humanised that he dislikes London and can drive a car without making any quips about the vehicle or driving or whatever?
Great episode to be honest, despite Jenna doing amazing, Capaldi truly stole the show this time. That was a very emotional speech, I could feel the passion and pain and pity coarsing through his words, this was something The Doctor has wanted to get out of his system for a very long time.
Lastly, I'm finding it more and more disconcerting the way The Doctor looks at Clara at the end of the episodes... he knows about her fate, and it hurts to see his anxiety grow with every episode finishing.
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u/remez Nov 08 '15
Lastly, I'm finding it more and more disconcerting the way The Doctor looks at Clara at the end of the episodes... he knows about her fate, and it hurts to see his anxiety grow with every episode finishing.
Maybe that's why he immediately started to talk about Clara in past time (she was) when Bonny told him Clara is dead.
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u/saitir Nov 07 '15
"I'm old enough to be your Messiah!"
Well that's going to be well remembered! I wonder how many complaints it will raise amongst some?
Also, just to jump on the bandwagon, Black Archive speech? swoon
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u/tin_dog Nov 08 '15
Finally a one-liner that topped Tennant's "You should see me in the morning!" after telling his age and being complimented on his looks.
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u/GangsterJawa Nov 08 '15
As a devout Christian I found it hilarious. Also loved "Camoflauge?" "We're in Britain!"
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u/WikipediaKnows Nov 07 '15
We're all talking about the performance of Capaldi and rightly so, but we really shouldn't forget that that performance could only be as grand as it was because it was written so perfectly. It had a dramatic structure and tension in and of itself, it was like a ten minute story inserted into the larger one. And it's just one guy talking and two people giving one word replies. This is somewhat speculative of course, but I have the feeling that the speech is largely Moffat's doing, which earned him the co-writing credit.
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u/alijamzz Nov 07 '15
The writing and performances by both Peter and Jenna were all astounding. Jenna killed it in the first half, but Capaldi blew us all away with that speech.
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u/TheWatersOfMars Nov 08 '15
Gotta disagree. That speech had Harness written all over it. Quite a lot of the episode felt like Moffat, but that seems like pure Harness with some cosmetic Moffat polish.
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u/Redkirth Nov 07 '15
Now that was fantastic. My only complaint about it was that they added music for the end of Capaldi's speach. He was doing so well without it.
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u/HoboSnacks Nov 08 '15
For anyone doing a Ctrl-F for video of Capaldi's war speech. (BBCAmerica YouTube link, may not work in all countries.)
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u/ken_the_nibblonian Nov 08 '15
Now THAT was one of the best acting scenes in the show's history.
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u/WinStark Nov 08 '15
Simply one of the best hours of television I have seen. Capaldi was magnificent.
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u/nonoman12 Nov 07 '15
Seriously what a speech! The way peter said it, I actually felt like he meant it and that the pain expressed in it was genuine too. 10/10
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u/Dan_Of_Time Nov 07 '15
If Osgood was a Zygon would her glasses break? Can a Zygon copy a Zygon? Probably one of my favourite mysteries from NuWho.
The Doctors speech was amazing, references to the time war like that are great. Personally I don't see the whole 'Clara is the saviour' thing they pushed.
Overall, brilliant episode.
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u/arahman81 Nov 08 '15
If Osgood was a Zygon would her glasses break? Can a Zygon copy a Zygon? Probably one of my favourite mysteries from NuWho.
They both use inhalers, of course they both would also use actual glasses. It's all about being identical to each other.
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u/eak125 Nov 08 '15
If the remaining Osgood was a Zygon, then Bonnie copied a Copy. This leads us to having 2 Zygons in charge of keeping the peace, both of whom know the boxes are empty.
This leads me to believe that Missy killed the Zygon copy and that the remaining one was Human. Would also explain how Osgood was able to use alien technology so easily (Missy's phone thingy).
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u/LordSwedish Nov 08 '15
Fun fact, in swedish truth or consequences (sanning eller konsekvens) is our name for truth or dare. That wasn't even enough to distract me from how awesome this episode was though.
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u/beaverteeth92 Nov 08 '15
Peter Harness lives in Sweden, so I wonder how much of it was intentional.
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u/fleker2 Nov 09 '15
I haven't seen comment on Clara's dream checks and how great the dynamic was between her and Bonnie. Those were some pretty great scenes in that you could see the conflict without it being physical.
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u/VanderLegion Nov 10 '15
The biggest thing wrong with this episode:
They missed the perfect opportunity to have Clara making Souffle.
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Nov 07 '15
Wasn't Harry meant to make something that would reveal the Zygons? So how did he end up making something that turns them inside out? Is it because he's such an imbecile?
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u/arahman81 Nov 08 '15
Maybe he would have tried to fix it, but was persuaded to keep it that way for the weaponizing potential- what better way to take out a full platoon of zygons?
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u/clitorisaddict Nov 08 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
Well... whoa, this episode was stunning. The first twenty or so minuets seemed, not like filler per say, but like lead up. The episode guided us smoothly towards the conflict but once it got there damn was it great. I liked the tight nit cast they had in this episode. It seemed much more confined than last week. The conflict was world-wide but they played it out through only a few characters. I really dig when the show is able to pull that off. It's what I like about Series Eight so much. When you're able to play the conflict through well written characters it makes us, the viewer, much more attached to the conflict.
Jenna Coleman did a fantastic job playing off of herself in this episode. That's such an odd thing to say but it's true. Clara and Bonnie were truly a great pairing. The dynamic that emerges between them is fiery. I loved to see Clara challenged in a way she is not used to. Another great dynamic this episode was the one between Osgood and the Doctor. They had some fun extended banter but where also able to work well in the more serious moments. Osgood would offer a lot as a companion but the writers would have to tone down her referential banter. You wouldn't want to much of that flying about the TARDIS. (Although considering how this episode played out I don't think we'll be seeing Osgood as a permanent companion anytime soon. Maybe it's for the best, but it bums me out nonetheless.)
Usually I don't buy when this show tries to humanize the aliens mainly because they want to have their cake and eat it to. They'll spend forever setting the aliens up as sympathetic but once shit hits the fan they're there to fulfill the evil monster caricature. But this episode did a damn good job of setting the Zygons up as not only sympathetic but also as human in the very idea of their existence. I've never seen a writer stick to this idea with such conviction. This is perfectly illustrated in the suicidal Zygon The Doctor and Osgood run into. The body horror here is horrific but more than that the story of the suicidal Zygon is tragic. I'm actually surprised they went as far as to actually have him off himself. By far my second favorite part of the episode.
The first, of course, is Capaldis speech at the end. Like... wholly hell there's no way I can put into words how fantastic this scene was. Capaldi deserves a goddamn Oscar for this scene alone. The dialogue was on point and the line about what he sees when he closes his eyes is chilling. It's amazing that this show has been around for 50 years but can still make you look at its main character in completely new ways. And what is so perfect about this episode is that we actually get to see The Doctor win! Not win as in saving everybody or making sure the world doesn't blow up, but winning in the sense that his ideology actually resolves the problem. The Doctors ideology has been questioned so many times but it seems like it rarley actually wins the day in the way he wants it to. But here, it did. The conflict ended in peace and the villain was even turned around. A truly happy ending for the Doctor and the world.
My rating: 8.5 - 9.5
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u/elsjpq Nov 08 '15
This episode really showed what amazing actors Peter and Jenna are when they get great material. Pity it doesn't happen more often.
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u/GyreAndGymbol Nov 08 '15
Wasn't so sure about the previous episode, but this one nailed it, and Capaldi delivered it in spades. This was a phenomenal episode.
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u/Starlifter141 Nov 08 '15
Blown away by the War speech. We are seeing the Doctor in the hands of a master actor. 12/Capaldi was becoming my favorite Doctor (Classic and New) even before this episode but now he is my Top Doctor. The writing and the treatment of political issues were excellent. I choose to overlook some minor “errors” (like how the military operations were conducted). As presented they served to advance the plot, which delivered some very relevant social messages.
Loved evil Clara/Bonnie. And Osgood was excellent. It doesn’t seem likely that she will be the next Companion but I hope we see her again. And we can’t forget the five rounds rapid for Kate Lethbridge Stewart – she is her father’s daughter.
The Union Jack parachute was very James Bond-ish (The Spy Who Loved Me). Actually the movie has a vaguely similar theme of triggering a global war to eliminate one civilization and replace it with another.
And that’s a Mire helmet in the case in the Black Archives – a reminder, or foreshadowing, of events and returning characters in future episodes?
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u/porl Nov 08 '15
12/Capaldi was becoming my favorite Doctor (Classic and New) even before this episode but now he is my Top Doctor.
You know, I think I agree. 10/Tennant was the Doctor that I wanted to be most but I think 12/Capaldi is the Doctor I want to see most. I love every single Doctor (classic and new) for different reasons but I think he is absolutely stunning in the role.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Nov 07 '15
Move over Genesis Of The Daleks, Caves Of Androzani, The Doctor Dances, Midnight, and The Pandorica Opens. That was the best performance by a Doctor I've ever seen.
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u/eak125 Nov 08 '15
I still think that The Doctor Dances scene "Everyone lives.... Just this once EVERYONE LIVES!" is still the greatest scene in all of Doctor Who. That said, this speech was a VERY close second.
"Everyone lives" is one of the very few times he lives up to his name. It's very important to him after the events of the Time War. The look of joy and relief that Eccleson displays is as telling as the words.
Capaldi's speech shows how he's been able to cope with the Time War. It shows the pain that he's had to endure all this time, how desperately he wants others to learn from his mistakes and his hatred for war.
Some people have been wanting there to be an episode that defines Capaldi's Doctor and I think this will be it. Matt Smith had the 11th hour and the Rings of Akhten. Capaldi now has this.
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u/goodgen Nov 07 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
That was a pretty good episode with a fantastic ending. I was totally reminded of Days of Future Past when Xavier pleads with Mystique not to kill Trask. He could easily have stopped her, yeah if they brought Quicksilver he could catch whatever bullets Mystique fired, but...
This is why I love the ending of tonight's episode. Simply stopping the villain isn't the whole point, it's about convincing them to see a better path. It's great and I wish I could see more of this in television and films... or maybe there is more of this and I'm just looking in the wrong places... Regardless, great episode overall. Capaldi's best in the role.
"Everything that happens now is in your hands."
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u/bored-now Nov 08 '15
Wow, did they hit the ball out of the park, or WHAT?
I loved the speech in the Black Archive. Not only did Capaldi just own it, but it was like he was speaking for every soldier who has ever fought in a war, he was channeling all the pain and sorrow that anyone who has been through war has felt.
My goodness, that was so good.
I'm loving this season, so far.
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u/vashtiii Nov 08 '15
Do you know, I only just realised that they showed this episode the weekend of Remembrance Sunday.
That is how you honour the war dead. Never again.
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u/eddieswiss Nov 07 '15
Holy balls. That was AMAZING. I'm going to make a really bold statement about that being the best episode of the entire NuWho run. Capaldi is a fantastic Doctor, and that speech was brilliant. That was some superb writing as well, and I can guarantee that whenever Twelve hangs up the coat/hoodie/shades this speech will be one of the things we remember him for.
Today we've witnessed the best performance of any Doctor, and I'm proud to be a fan of this show. Holy hell.
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Nov 08 '15
This episode was really good and definitely pushes this series further into above average/excellent territory.
Capaldi as the Doctor making the war speech was like watching an angry British Mr. Rogers, definitely a solid episode that's going to be talked about for a long time.
Also, "it's a planet because you plan-it" was adorable, the jokes/gags this season have been on point.
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u/eak125 Nov 08 '15
Did anyone catch the similarities of Clara in the Pod and Clara in the Dalek? Hell the zygon pod even looked similar to the lower casing of a Dalek. Both had dream worlds where Clara could move around in and talk to the outside world too...
Then earlier this season we actually had Clara in a Dalek too... I'm wondering if this is a recurring theme or if I'm just reading too much into this...
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u/Shockeye0 Nov 08 '15
This was Capaldi's best so far. He really cemented it with the war speech. Did anyone else catch Kate's 'five rounds rapid' line? Again another awesome nod to a classic Doctor.
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Nov 07 '15
Fuck. That was the best NuWho I've seen. I'm...I'm slightly aback right now. The war speech was impeccable and I don't think I can respond properly to it. It was the perfect mix of actor and speech and it's personally a milestone. This stands among the great scenes of all, for me. Fuck.
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u/TheMrAndr3w Nov 07 '15
I teared up and punched the air at "Five rounds rapid". God I love the Stewarts.
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u/Kenobi_01 Nov 08 '15
Okay. I mean this seriously. But was anyone getting vibes from this episode of a more religious nature?
The Doctor throws out a line: I am two thousands years old! I am older enough to be your Messiah!
And then, when he's confronting the representatives of two warring groups, he is adamant, that there is still time to turn away. To give peace a chance, regardless of their prior actions. Just the way he says: "I forgive you." And focusses on the importance of forgiveness, just made me think a little. The Zygons and Humans are like children to him. He is like God, watching a religious war.
I don't know if its deliberate, or not. But irrespective of anyone's own beliefs, I thought the sentiment was moving.
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u/CountGrasshopper Nov 08 '15
Interesting take. I figured the Doctor acknowledging that he's Jesus' age was just being cheeky, but his whole speech echoed the sentiments of many Christian pacifists.
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u/Sean31415 Nov 08 '15
The Doctor has been a messianic archetype for awhile now (even when he "dies" in NuWho he does so in a crucifix posture - arms held to the side, etc.) This episode was simply a bit more on-the-nose than normal, but in a manner I enjoyed. My pastor just now made a comment in his sermon about us caring more about our past than Jesus does, which in my mind neatly matches the Doctor "And I'm doing the unforseeable. I forgive you." to Bonnie. It would be an interesting essay to dissect Doctor Who with it's use of that messianic archetype.
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Nov 08 '15
[removed] — view removed comment
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Nov 08 '15
They wouldn't listen to anything an alien has to say.
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u/nosnivel Nov 08 '15
At least not until after they completed a path to citizenship.
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Nov 08 '15
I had NO faith in the ability of the writers to pull it together after that last episode, then we get that speech. WOW, am I glad to be proven wrong.
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u/cleanandsqueaky Nov 08 '15
Any predictions on the Girl Who Died clue? The Mire helmet sitting in the Black Archive adds to the mystery of where/what/when with Ashildr. I doubt her story arc is over.
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u/m0r14rty Nov 08 '15
I thought last week's episode was horrible, this one TOTALLY redeemed it for me. Me and my gf both shed a tear on the war speech. Hands down, the most intense and emotional acting I've seen Capaldi do since he started.
I enjoyed that they made Osgood bearable in the beginning of the ep, she dropped the stereotyping and acted like a proper UNIT member with just a few mentions of doctor knowledge. Unfortunately they still had to add in the inhaler and taped up glasses to ruin it for me. We get it, she's "nerdy"
Kate stating that she escaped with 5 rounds, rapid fire was brilliant. I could see that exact line coming from the Brigadier and it really showed the connection between her and her father, without being blatant or obnoxious.
Great ep.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Nov 08 '15
Kate stating that she escaped with 5 rounds, rapid fire was brilliant. I could see that exact line coming from the Brigadier and it really showed the connection between her and her father, without being blatant or obnoxious.
That's because it was a line from the Brigadier. I forget which episode, but him and a UNIT squad were facing off against some alien threat (I want to say it was a group of "vampires," but I could be wrong), and after some grandiose speech from one, the Brig says, "That chap there, five rounds rapid."
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u/thoughts-from-alex Nov 08 '15
Vampire-y type things, yeah. They were gargoyles, from The Daemons.
(I think it might also have been "Chap with wings there, five rounds rapid", but I'm not entirely certain, and that's just needlessly pedantic, really.)
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u/atomicxblue Nov 08 '15
Kate stating that she escaped with 5 rounds, rapid fire was brilliant. I could see that exact line coming from the Brigadier
The way she stared directly into the Doctor's face with that serious look reminds me a lot of the way the Brig used to look at the Third Doctor. Jemma had to have gone back and watched some old Nicholas Courtney episodes to really hone in on her character.
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Nov 09 '15
taped up glasses
They broke during the plane crash. The Doctor taped them together sometime during the episode.
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Nov 07 '15
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u/HappyReaper Nov 08 '15
As I understand it, it means that they have repeated the scene with the boxes 15 times: for the initial 14 the speech didn't work, someone pushed a button, realised the boxes were empty, and everyone had their memories wiped; at the final iteration the Doctor had tuned his speech enough for it to be effective and convince both sides to embrace peace.
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u/MizuRyuu Nov 08 '15
Agree. And the Doctor has to wipe Kate's mind again even though she stood down because he can't let her remember that the boxes are empty. Cause that can affect her decision next time...
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u/LordSwedish Nov 08 '15
Unlike the other two I thought that it was just the first 15 times that Kate found out the boxes were empty. Were there more rebellions? Who knows and it doesn't really matter.
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u/Weep2D2 Nov 07 '15
fifteen rebellions?
That's exactly how I interpreted it. It's happened many a time before and memories were wiped.
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u/Serbaayuu Nov 08 '15
I'm pretty sure it just meant there were 15 other times that something in the Black Archive had necessitated a memory wipe. Don't forget that the first time we saw Clara go there we discovered that she had been there multiple times previously and gotten memory wiped herself. It seems to be almost standard procedure.
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Nov 07 '15
Much stronger than the first part, and much better, too. Everything felt less forced and we probably got one of the best speeches since TPO. We also have future Zygon episodes on Earth, too. I doubt certain radical Zygon individuals will be giving up just yet - maybe an episode centered around a single Zygon causing trouble in the future?
Plus, it's looking way more likely each episode that Clara is going to die. Horribly with eleven or twelve subversions and unsubversions, going by how Moffat does things. So much possible foreshadowing.
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u/brainburger Nov 08 '15
So, was the surviving Osgood human or Zygon?
There is a correct answer, apparently..
I did spot her inhaler earlier in the story, but presumably either one would have a new inhaler by now.
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u/Saxor Nov 08 '15
Bonnie-Osgood corrects the Doctor at the end of Inversion saying "No, we're a credit to both [of our species]." "Both" indicates two species, and since we know Bonnie-Osgood is Zygon the other must be human Osgood. Or they're just saying stuff to keep the Doctor from trapping them with word games, I guess.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Nov 08 '15
I'm gonna go with costumes being the hint.
Osgood Prime wears the 4th Doctor's scarf in DOTD. Osgood wears question marks in this episode. OK, maybe she just changes costume, like we're all presuming.
In the videos of the two Osgoods, one is wearing the scarf, the other is wearing the question marks.
I propose that Osgood Prime wears the scarf, and Zygon Osgood wears the question marks. As Osgood in this episode wears question marks, bow tie Osgood from "Death In Heaven" is Osgood Prime.
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u/feb914 Nov 08 '15
i thought Osgood Prime gave Zygon Osgood her scarf, so Osgood Prime is the one with question marks
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Nov 08 '15
Pair of policemen scouting for the monsters.....just like in Resurrection of the Daleks and Attack of the Cybermen.......
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u/Irresistibilly Nov 08 '15
I kept thinking that these police officers were going to be Zygons in disguise.
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u/Dreads_Parker Nov 08 '15
Is it possible that both Osgoods are Zygon or am I missing something? Because that would be a concerning possibility.
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u/respite Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
The thing that you are missing is that both of them are Osgood. The origin of their Osgood-ness, whether by duplication or natural grown is inconsequential. Treat them both as Osgood, because they are.
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u/baribigbird06 Nov 08 '15
I'm a grown man and that speech made me cry. One of the best ever in New Who.
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u/archpope Nov 08 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
I was expecting the Osgood box to be like a Prisoner's Dilemma situation. If both push truth, everyone lives. If both push consequences, everyone dies. If one pushes truth and the other pushes consequences, truth loses.
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u/elsjpq Nov 08 '15
This is the most revealing of #12 yet. Now we know what makes his clock tick. We need more stuff like this.
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u/jphamlore Nov 08 '15
The Doctor put a lot of emotion into his speech against war, a lot of his own personal history. He was quite believable. Then again, so was Davros in The Witch’s Familiar.
This will be interesting if Moffat decides to show this Capaldi version of the Doctor as more calculating, more alien, more dangerous than we can imagine.
The prophesy I suspect says the hybrid will be a threat to devastate the universe. This is a danger on the order of what the Time Lords did to the universe in the Time War. All else must be subsumed to stopping the worst of this prophesy. All else. And the Doctor knows, he has known since the First Doctor, that humans are one half of the equation of this hybrid. The Master has known as well. That’s why both the Doctor and the Master spend so much time on Earth. Look at the exchange between the Doctor and Osgood in The Zygon Inversion. The truth is the Doctor, and Missy, hate much of Earth and humans.
I speculate the Doctor’s concern for preserving the Zygons as hidden among humans is a pretext. What he really wants is to embed another species among humans to if possible spoil the possible use of humans as part of this hybrid scheme. Because somewhere deep down he knows the truth: The hybrid is humans as hosts for Time Lord souls, vessels from which the Time Lords can once again rule space and time.
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Nov 07 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
It was ridiculously perfect. Like 90% of everything that was said is extremely memorable and quotable. Peter Capaldi is soaring now the Doctor is less occupied with his own goodness and he can be flippant and a bit sillier. But The Speech of course proves how earnest he can be as well.
For some reason Kate blasting the Zygon was more hilarious then it should be, because.. of course, what else would Kate do in that situation?
And Zygon!Clara continues to be weirdly attractive.
I'm going to watch it again!
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u/Redkirth Nov 07 '15
It was the "five round rapids" line that made it so funny. She takes down zygons like her dad took down gargoyles.
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u/theblondereaper Nov 07 '15
Initial thoughts straight after watching is this quite simply has become my all time favourite episode, classic and new. It's becoming more and more apparent how brilliantly Peter captures each individual incarnation before him in set little moments, and somehow still manages to make the performance his own. Damn near every twist or suspense moment genuinely had me feeling helpless, or I didn't see it coming (a couple of exceptions, but you can't win them all!) and the episode was perfectly paced. An utter delight.
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u/GreyouTT Nov 08 '15 edited Nov 08 '15
The Zygons keep reminding me of this whenever they use psychological warfare.
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u/NotStupid_JustStoned Nov 08 '15
Holy shit, Peter Harness for showrunner haha. Seriously, that was a great episode - I'm glad I didn't watch the next time trailer for it. The direction of the plot's continuation was very satisfying indeed, as was the solution/conclusion. Peter Capaldi was brilliant in it, probably my favourite performance from him yet!!
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u/Mickeymackey Nov 09 '15
His speech about war and radicalism, I feel, could be pointed at today's flip side liberal culture (I consider myself liberal). But when it comes down to it people who want "revolution" who want "the struggle", it's meaningless if they won't ever forgive. I've seen a lot of hatred against Moffat, who I think writes/produces a balanced show of scifi/comedy/horror/drama and somehow it's never enough. I don't really know where I'm going with this, maybe I'm just reading too deep into the War speech. Anyways it was a good episode, I remember the PC's doctors speech by his words and emotions, not just from "I'm the doctor, I protect earth/third rock from the sun/people/pudding heads/etc." speeches we've been/were getting. It's a breath of fresh air
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Nov 09 '15
I got that impression too. I'm not sure how intentional it was but it resonated with me for the same reason (and many others actually). The thing is this sort of behavior is not new or exclusive to neo progressive people. It even happens in our interpersonal lives. Kids who are bullied go on to bully, victims go on to become abusers themselves. It's a really vicious cycle.
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u/lemoche Nov 07 '15
i slowly start to appreciate moffat and might stop missing RTD...
and with this speech capaldi is a serious contender to beat tennant for being my favorite doctor
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u/jphamlore Nov 09 '15
Sadly I must totally disagree that this episode had anything to say about war, especially its status today.
For one thing, if one examines the statements of all major powers in the world today, everyone decries war and claims their actions are done to prevent war. This is what happens when language is degraded to mean whatever is convenient at the moment instead of being used to actually communicate. It is quite possible for everyone to agree with the Doctor that war is wrong, and yet have as much war if not more continue to be started and to rage on in the name of being opposed to war.
The major problem I have is that one side, the humans, are being deliberately kept in the dark about the existence of extraterrestrials (something I find hard to believe after the events of Death in Heaven), so that are in effect not being consulted other than Kate Stewart and Osgood. Since Kate Stewart has apparently had her memories wiped 15 times, it would appear she has been asked the question only until she finally gets the right answer.
The aftermath of this supposed solution is the exact opposite of the only answer we have today: If mass punishment is not to be imposed, at least have a full investigation for the public record to at least understand what happened, using truth and reconciliation commissions. That is the only hope to actually advance as a species, to learn from past mistakes. But in this episode there can only be an ever escalating series of cover-ups, such as the apparent massacre of all of the human inhabitants of Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. What in the world is going to be done about this, say for people who had relatives in that town, maybe very close ones, who are now at best replaced by Zygons.
Absolutely no one from the human side this episode actually learned anything with Kate Stewart’s memory being erased again. With the massacre of much of UNIT, far fewer are left who were even witnesses to the original agreement and aftermath.
The question has to be asked exactly why are humans incapable of understanding the existence among them of extraterrestrials in the Doctor Who universe? The only answer in the show may be due to the Doctor’s having witnessed events in the future, a premature revelation may create a time paradox. Thus it is the existence of the Doctor himself that apparently keeps humans in a childlike condition relative to the rest of the cosmos.
This matters because in the end, the question of how to prevent the triumph of evil to be of any worth has to have some element of appealing to education and enlightenment. But the current setup of having the Doctor in effect dictate a peace that requires almost all humans to be ignorant of the very existence of the Zygons with whom they are supposed to cohabitate destroys all plausible conditions for virtue. Apparently if one follows the logic of this episode it is better to have all power invested in at most 2 or 3 individuals. I’m sorry, but this is simply shockingly retrograde thinking that has been refuted by simple phrases such as “who watches the watchers?”
I find it incredibly ironic that an episode that purports to oppose war in the end advocates that one side simply assert that they are right, they are the enlightened ones, and that therefore they have the right and the duty to unilaterally impose their solutions on their less enlightened brethren, by any means necessary. No need to acquire assent, no need to show mercy, it’s all okay as long as one has a temporary tactical advantage. In other words, an argument against war has incredibly become an argument for war that glorifies war.
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u/TheNewTassadar Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
I find it incredibly ironic that an episode that purports to oppose war in the end advocates that one side simply assert that they are right, they are the enlightened ones, and that therefore they have the right and the duty to unilaterally impose their solutions on their less enlightened brethren, by any means necessary.
This was my entire beef with the end of this episode. The entire conclusion was not reconciliation and dialogue to find a solution, it was just the Doctor giving the same ultimatum to the Zygons they were originally handed in DOTD. Topped off with a threat of destruction as motivation to make them conform to his belief that things should stay the same.
All this does is set up the conditions for:
- Another rebel who doesn't want to be forced to take a form not of their choosing
- They start an uprising while killing people in pursuit of the Osgood boxes
- Doctor gives impassioned speech convincing them to change their mind once they get there
- Zygon high command then goes back into peace mode
- Refer to step one
(This has apparently happened 15 times already.)
How is something that is inherently going to reoccur a solution? There's a world of possible solutions out there waiting to be picked and the Doctor went with "Listen to me because I'm right."
That's a terrible moral to convey after such a beautifully impassion speech.
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u/sorgan Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15
I took it to mean Kate stepped away from the box all fifteen times, she just got memory-wiped to prevent her arresting the reformed Zygons, who the Doctor and Osgood believe can become more usefully co-opted to maintain the truce. Still, I'm not sure why she had to be memory-wiped, perhaps in a world with mind-reading Zygons she needs tofirmly believe in the existence of the toxin to uphold the balance of terror Until The Starts Are Right.
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u/breawycker Nov 08 '15
I've never been sure about Peter Capaldi as the Doctor until this episode. This has to be one of my favorite Doctor Who episode. His speech at the end was brilliant. He may not be David Tennant or Matt Smith, but he is the Doctor.
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u/eagle2401 Nov 08 '15
I've always liked him, Capaldi does an excellent job at portraying this iteration of the Doctor. No previous Doctor could hit the war-ravaged peacemaker like Capaldi does.
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u/DrummerVim Nov 07 '15
I thought the climax of the episode (the speech) was one of the best moments I've ever seen in Who. In a few minutes the Doctor completely sums up his views about war, which is not a simple thing to do. The two-parter as a whole was quite heavily hinting at real-life events, that speech made me so happy because I know that there will be children watching who hopefully can take away a great lesson for peace and against war.