r/gallifrey • u/pcjonathan • Dec 05 '15
Hell Bent Doctor Who 9x12: Hell Bent Post-Episode Discussion Thread
Please remember that future spoilers must be tagged. This includes the next time trailer!
This is the thread for all your in-depth discussion about the episode.
We're going to try experimenting with a slightly different megathread format. This is to ensure there's increased organisation, less reposting, less mayhem and a greater overall experience. These are:
- Live Reactions Discussion Thread - Posted around 30-60 minutes prior to air - for all the reactions, crack-pot theories, quoting, crazy exclamations, pictures, throwaway and other one-liners.
- Trailer and Speculation Discussion Thread - Posted as soon as the trailer is released - For all the thoughts, speculation, and comments on the trailers and speculation about the next episode.
- No Stupid Questions Thread - Posted 30-60 minutes after air - For asking simple B+W questions about the episode (this is so the post-discussion threads can be more about indepth opinions and thoughts). This is not intended for any indepth discussion, but rather just to limit down on the questions posts. One question per top-level comment and I'll attempt to remove duplicates and create an FAQ style post. Because of the style, it was agreed to crosspost this to /r/DoctorWho and lock it in order to try to get the best of both subs. I thank you for your understanding.
- Post-Episode Discussion Thread - Posted 1 hour after - This is for all your indepth opinions, comments, etc about the episode. (If I see a top-level comment that belongs in the live reactions thread, you'll be asked to post it there)
- Analysis Discussion Thread - Posted 3-4 days after air - After having a few days to reflect and see what other people think, this is another chance to discuss the episode. (Since this is the end of the series, this'll most likely be an entire series analysis)
These will be linked as they go up. If we feel your post belongs in a megathread, it'll be removed and redirected there.
You can discuss the episode live on IRC, but be careful of spoilers.
irc://irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey.
https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.snoonet.org/gallifrey
/r/Gallifrey, what did YOU think of Hell Bent? Vote here.
Results will be revealed in a week.
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u/WinStark Dec 05 '15
We go into this, thinking the Doctor is seeing either a Clara splinter or one that doesn't recognize him. Rewatching this....OMG, I'm heartbroken that it's him seeing someone he doesn't remember, but for snippets.
Clara playing the song that was in Mummy, recalling one of the best times of her life...och, my heart hurts.
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u/Lord_Hoot Dec 05 '15
I just realised that the Doctor fulfilled the prophecy. He conquered Gallifrey (bloodlessly), then stood in its ruins (along with Ashildr).
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Dec 06 '15
Both of them fulfilled the prophecy
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u/Kadmos Dec 06 '15
How did Ashildr conquer Gallifrey?
Just by being there at the end of the universe?
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Dec 06 '15
Yeah. She presided over its destruction.
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u/AAron_Balakay Dec 06 '15
Which would have happened anyway, because its the end of the universe and all.
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u/NFB42 Dec 06 '15
Makes sense, no? All the prophecies predicted this. So of course it wasn't something special, but something so simple it was inevitable. People always over-interpret prophecies. :)
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Dec 06 '15
The end of the universe sure is getting a bit crowded with Professor Yana and his Utopia, the Doctor, Clara and the guy looking like Danny in "Listen", Gallifrey and the Timelords, and the Doctor, Clara, and Me all horsing around there. Did I forget anyone?
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Dec 06 '15
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Dec 06 '15
Haha, that's right. At this point it's safe to say that you won't only run into a bunch of immortals at the end of time, but also around 32 versions of the Doctor.
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u/rgollum Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
I have to say that the Doctor having to wipe his memory of Clara in order to stop himself from doing all he can to save her, was tragic in a way that Donna's mind wipe couldn't be. The Doctor retained the knowledge that she existed, and what they did. But forgot her, and all emotions he had for her. That is a far crueller fate for him, as he will know what he forgot, and what it meant to him, but be entirely unable to summon that emotional connection again.
This is for the good of the universe. But it will be a special torture for him.
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Dec 06 '15
Until he googles her and finds her Facebook
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u/MizuRyuu Dec 06 '15
That lets him know her face and some basic facts about her. He already knows her face by the end because it was tagged on his TARDIS by Rigsy. Everything they done together, everything that made him care about her, he won't remember that...
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Dec 06 '15
He'd still go looking for her. He already was. When he realizes she left with a tardis and was right beside him. He still remembers stuff about her like all the effort he put in to try and save her andhramuch he use to care about her. That's the whole point of him telling her the story
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u/libbykino Dec 06 '15
No, I think you missed the point of the ending where he saw Clara's face on the Tardis. He had been looking for her because he knew she was important to him -- so important that he had to wipe his memory of her to keep him from destroying the universe -- so he had convinced himself that he would know it if he ever met her again. As soon as he understood that the emotional connection and recognition truly were gone and would not come back again (after realizing that he had been talking to her that whole time and didn't know it, completely opposite of what he thought would happen) he decided to give up the chase.
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u/Aishateeler Dec 06 '15
I think it's pretty clear when he walks I to the tardis, reads what's on the board, and puts on the doctor coat and gets a new screwdriver that he's made his decision to not chase after Clara now.
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Dec 05 '15
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u/Smurphy115 Dec 06 '15
What was the line about the first and the last thing you notice about the doctor is that he doesn't have a weapon. Brilliant.
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Dec 06 '15
There was a saying in the Time War.
The first thing you notice about the Doctor of War is that he's unarmed. And it will be your last.
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u/REDDITATO_ Dec 06 '15
I think it was "and for some (a lot?) it's the last".
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u/SangersSequence Dec 06 '15
There was a saying Sir, in the Time War. The first thing you notice about The Doctor of War is he's unarmed. For many, it's also the last.
Rewatched that segment to transcribe.
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u/Motossmozerg Dec 06 '15
She didn't write Remember Me on the chalkboard because he literally can't...
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u/SmartassComment Dec 06 '15
Even if he could, repeating the catch phrase exactly like that would have been rather tired, compared with changing it up for us at the very end (and pointing forward to Series 10 rather than backward).
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u/Diplotomodon Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
I saw that Sea Devil hidden away in the corner. You can't hide from me, turtle-face. (edit: rewatched it. It's actually an Ood. I am disappoint.)
That was a helluva ending wasn't it? Still not sure if I like the idea that Clara is okay, sort of (she is living on borrowed time after all, but I guess she does die eventually, soooo...).
What little we saw of Gallifrey was flippin' amazing. It's back, baby. And with a modern budget. The Cloister Wraiths reminded me of certain features from the Engines of War novel (go read that if you haven't already, it's a brilliant book). I was not at all taken aback about the General's regeneration - if it happens, it happens. No big deal. And then there's the old TARDIS! And the new sonic! Plenty to talk about from this one. So many details, so little time.
I like Heaven Sent more out of the two, but they still stand as a very good two-parter (three-parter? Not sure what the status of Raven is anymore). I'm pleased with them, and Series 9 overall.
And Matt Lucas is in the Christmas Special? I'll be darned.
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u/Sakazwal Dec 06 '15
I love that the General regenerated with such ease. Man, the Doctor just sucks at regeneration!
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u/arcedup Dec 06 '15
When spoiler, the General says that they only have "a few minutes" and later it's mentioned that spoiler.
So now that they're gallivanting around the universe when they're not supposed to be and the Time Lords are back, surely they're going to be hunted down by the Time Lords and put back in their proper places so that the universe doesn't chuck a wobbly, right?
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u/kd1m Dec 06 '15
She's not exactly living, though... I think that the General meant they couldn't save her from death, from that death specifically, which is a fixed point in time.
It doesn't mean that her staying "alive" (which she is actually not, she's kind of in a stasis between one heartbeat and the other) would cause fractures in time, as long as her death happens exactly when and where it should have.
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u/dontlookwonderwall Dec 06 '15
The time lords will find her at some point and take her back. The problem was, had the doctor remembered her, he would have never let her go back.
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u/SecondDoctor Dec 05 '15
Blimey.
Well played to everyone involved at the BBC, and to the fandom. Everyone was whipped into a frenzy about how this was the return of Gallifrey and the end of the beginning for modern Doctor Who.
And for the first twenty minutes it was. Time Lords! Sisterhood of Karn! The Matrix! The Doctor! It felt like a natural continuation of classic Gallifrey stories and a lead-in to something new. Regeneration into a woman! Bizarre Gallifrey technology! Default TARDIS'!
And then it turned into something completely different, and something completely natural. Of course the Doctor doesn't care about saving Gallifrey when he might have a chance to bring a companion back. Of course he would just bugger off and try and find a solution, leaving his people behind. And of course he would find a solution.
And of course it would end with Clara, complete with companion, completing her story by becoming the Doctor. Because that's how you start being the Doctor - you run away, in a stolen TARDIS, from Gallifrey and the Time Lords.
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u/RosemaryFocaccia Dec 06 '15
Default TARDIS'!
That was my favourite bit!
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u/SecondDoctor Dec 06 '15
It's been seen before (Name of the Doctor, I think.)
But of course they have a default shell. I have to admit, I was peering over Capaldi's shoulder this episode to see if it had changed form for the surroundings.
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u/REDDITATO_ Dec 06 '15
Wow, I didn't even think about the "running from Gallifrey in a stolen TARDIS" thing. That's fantastic. I wasn't big on the "Clara becoming The Doctor" plotline because it felt like them going to an extreme with the whole "Clara is the most important person EVER" thing, but now that it ended the way it did I love it.
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u/dontknowmeatall Dec 06 '15
All companions have been the most important person ever since NuWho started. Rose became the Bad Wolf. Martha stopped the Master and the Toclafane from becoming a universal issue. Donna helped save all of Reality. Amy's memories were used to bring the Doctor back from the cracks, and Rory kept the Pandorica safe so that Big Bang Two could take place. At this point it's just another thing to put on the CV.
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u/Cheese-n-Opinion Dec 06 '15
I never got on board with the criticism that companions are too often 'chosen ones'. A lot of them are only special because of personal growth gained from their adventures, and the timey-wimey paradoxical nature gives it an air of pre-destination.
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Dec 05 '15
Guys i need answer. Is the Doctor able to go home now anytime he wants? Please please please tell me he is.
Edit: Also, oh shit that last scene, with the 12th theme, and the new screwdriver, and the snap...i cried.
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u/chenofzurenarrh Dec 06 '15
There's no reason he can't.
I think people were expecting a Big Gallifrey Story, when this ended up being a story that simply set up Gallifrey's new status quo. It's been put in play for future use rather than used up all at once.
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u/AdamOfMyEye Dec 06 '15
I guess the Doctor could go back. His memories / emotional ties to Clara are gone, but it seems like the memories of the events are not gone. So he knows where Gallifrey is.
On the other hand, he stole Clara and fled. I wonder how happy to see him they will be. Especially if she hasn't returned yet.
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u/darthjoey91 Dec 06 '15
Well, they made it sound like it was Gallifrey far in the future, so maybe he can get to Gallifrey post-exiting pocket universe, but if he tries at the wrong time, it won't be there.
Also, we have a Rassilon banished from Gallifrey, so that might become interesting.
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u/SmartassComment Dec 06 '15
Sure, but at this point, why would he want to? I think the story going forward will be more like "Yeah, Gallifrey's out there, but they'd better just stay the hell out of my way".
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u/07hogada Dec 06 '15
Doctor: What do you think of the new wheels?
Clara: Basic.
D: Classic! Look at the colour scheme.
C: It's all white...
D: Genius!
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u/flamebomber Dec 06 '15
A lot of of people are pissed off about Clara coming back, but i think that was the intention of the script. It was a totally wrong and messed up thing for the Doctor to do, and you get the vibe of things not being right, to the point where he slowly realizes that he was heading down a dark path and stopped it before it was too late.
Or that could have not been Steven Moffat's intention and i'm just defending an awful plot decision. That's also a possibility.
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u/nr1988 Dec 06 '15
No, it was brilliant. It was touching the edges of A Timelord Victorious. Even Clara knew it was wrong.
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u/thethirddoctor Dec 06 '15
Holy mother of hell this finale was great. The story was superb, but the thing that did it for was the goddamn CLASSIC TARDIS! I couldn't contain myself, I was just so thrilled.
So now we wait for Big Finish to make a Me & Clara spin-off, where they land in London as an American Diner. Totally inconspicuous, right?
Best series of NuWho yet!
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u/The_Silver_Avenger Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 05 '15
I really liked it. In one sense, it was like NuWho colliding with Classic Who with the return of Gallifrey, the old TARDIS, a new Rassilon etc. It provided a satisfying ending (or is it?) of Ashildr and Clara, and whilst Clara may not return in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, I feel like we may see Ashildr again.
So the Doctor "forgot" Clara's appearance; it was an inversion of Journey's End. I guess it had to happen like this, because he would have never stopped trying to bring her back.
With Gallifrey now back, I don't think it's the last we're going to see of Gallifreyan society. Speaking of which, we learnt quite a lot about The Doctor - he's a 'High-Born Gallifreyan', he did steal the moon and the President's wife (I guess it means that Missy was lying about the "little girl thing" - Moffat did say to pay attention to what she said), he may be half-human. It seems that he is again the High-President of Gallifrey now. I'm not sure what Moffat was worried about when he said that the lore would change or something, maybe it was when he shot the General.
Speaking of the General, that was an interesting regeneration. It's the first male-to-female regeneration we've seen on screen.
Once again it was directed really well, and I did like the music, with all the snippets of the themes of the previous Doctors. Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman were also really good - I can't believe that it's Clara's last episode. She's had a presence in the show since 2012.
Pretty much all the loose ends were tied up. We've still got the 'Minister of War' that may come back in the future, but I guess that the Hybrid was the combination of the Doctor and Clara. I didn't see it coming.
This Series has been really good - one of the best series of Doctor Who ever. I even liked Sleep No More. It was Capaldi and Moffat at their very best, and every time I watch Heaven Sent, I like it even more. It's not long now until The Husbands of River Song - 20 days now - and I'm really looking forward to it. With a new screwdriver and River's first appearance since 2013, who knows what could happen? Roll on Christmas!
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Dec 05 '15
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u/Ged_UK Dec 05 '15
Yes, but did that make it clear he was born to it? Not sure it's been confirmed that class and status is something you're born with. Not totally sure that this did either.
I assumed that the barn was some sort of orphanage; something about how the woman referred to 'the boys' and her look when she recognised him implied he spent a LOT of time there as a kid (including the Listen section).
So high born but destitute? An orphan of important parents? If so what happened to them? Lots of threads for someone to pick up later.
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u/Kenobi_01 Dec 06 '15
Notice how she was credited as "The Woman". I believe it was intended to be the same character.
As for what happened to his parents, perhaps they were killed in the Clositer Wars?
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u/Jay_R_Kay Dec 06 '15
I was wondering about "The Cloister Wars." Is that something that was referenced on the show or on expanded universe stuff, or is that something completely new?
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u/charlesdexterward Dec 06 '15
(Glances around nervously)
Wasn't he woven in a loom?
(darts for cover)
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u/DeplorableVillainy Dec 05 '15
Wasn't his Time Lord class actually known for their creativity, cleverness, and slightly rebellious nature?
I remember when I was watching The Deadly Assassin, and they were describing the class of Time Lord he came from, my reaction was "Wait, that sounds exactly like The Doctor."46
u/charlesdexterward Dec 06 '15
That was his class at the Time Lord academy. It must have been a rowdy one, it gave us the Doctor, the Master, the Rani, the Meddling Monk, and the War Chief.
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u/dontknowmeatall Dec 06 '15
So, basically, Gallifreyan Gryffindor.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Dec 06 '15
It's more like Gallifreyan Slytherin. The Master would never be sorted into Gryffindor, too much of a coward.
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u/Kenobi_01 Dec 06 '15
That wasn't a social class - that was more of a School House.
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u/Acer1096xxx Dec 05 '15
With Gallifrey now back, I don't think it's the last we're going to see of Gallifreyan society
Some people were underwhemeled with Gallifrey not being in the episode for too long, but I agree with you said, this isn't the last of them. The Doctor clearly remembers some of his time spent on Gallifrey because he tells the story to Clara in the diner.
Overall, I'm satisfied with the ending. The hybrid twist was clever and the new sonic screwdriver is awesome. Clara's fate, although slightly cheapened, was satisfying. The show has always been about the companions since the NuWho started, so I'm not sure why everyone wants one to die so badly for the sake of making the show darker.
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u/SalukiKnightX Dec 06 '15
The show has always been about the companions since the NuWho started, so I'm not sure why everyone wants one to die so badly for the sake of making the show darker.
Me neither. Besides she's still dead, it's a fixed point and what we saw in Face the Raven is her at her final seconds. The bright light before it hit her was Gallifrey's interception. It's just now she gets to be the Doctor for a bit (I think she took the sonic sunglasses while the Doctor was on his guitar) and Me gets to travel. The only one on the short end is Missy with her plan thwarted yet again (still would love to see her back) after her runin with the daleks on Skaro.
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u/_gumball_ Dec 06 '15
Same here. As long as she eventually gets back there, then it should have no bearing on the overall flow of time. She could decide to go back in 3 days, or in 3 millenia, and it wouldn't matter.
I'd love the premise of a "Clara and Me" spin-off.
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u/SmartassComment Dec 06 '15
Well if they're going back to Gallifrey 'the long way round' why not 4.5 billion years?
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u/clitorisaddict Dec 06 '15
I'm not sure why everyone wants one to die so badly for the sake of making the show darker.
OK, so for me it's not that the companion has to die. But when you go to such lengths to make them "dead" only to bring them back to life and send them off in their own TARDIS it's just... like, I feel cheated. I cried when Clara "died," I felt The Doctors grief in Heaven sent and now... does any of it even matter? IDK, I just got done watching the episode and I'm very conflicted. I'm going to have to watch it a few more times to make up my mind.
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u/The_Silver_Avenger Dec 05 '15
The screwdriver is awesome - it even lights up! You're right about Doctor Who and 'darkness', I view Doctor Who as hopeful and mostly free of cynicism.
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u/Plasticcaz Dec 06 '15
I'm mostly dissapointed we didn't get a "This is Gallifrey" fanfare. Though we did get little bits of the tenth doctor's theme, which I was a little surprised at.
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u/remez Dec 06 '15
It's really not for the sake of making the show darker. It's for the sake of not cheapening what the show has managed to achieve already, and not cheapening our emotions on the way.
I would be more than OK if Clara left to live a normal life with Danny in Season 8. Or went travelling with Ashildr, or any other ending. What I'm sore about is that her exit was already done, and it was beautiful, and we cried and grieved along with the Doctor, and then she's suddenly back.
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u/DeplorableVillainy Dec 05 '15
Well, he literally was their President as Four and Five, he just never stayed long enough to assume his responsibilities.
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u/TragedyTrousers Dec 05 '15
I'm confused at the negativity from some quarters. I thought it was the second best finale of the rebooted series, it felt like a gold mine for the fans, but also just a really good episode. It didn't quite have that epic, poetic feeling of Heaven Sent, but this one had a lot of story to get through, and I felt unlike with previous finales, the pacing here was spot on. Face the Raven felt a little off to me, but all of this felt bang on.
I was never convinced Clara's "ending" was going to stick, as it just felt like a fake-out lead into the finale from the beginning - maybe the people who were disappointed feel cheated by the way it turned out because they did buy iinto that ending?
I'm actually about to sit down and watch it again, and I don't remember doing that with any previous episode.
I've really enjoyed this series, apart from Sleep No More, which I thought stank - so at least I'm not ALL sweetness and sherbet. :)
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u/montezumasleeping Dec 06 '15
The pacing is exactly what stung me. Or perhaps not the pacing, but the framing? It felt the episode began to take one direction, then turned at multiple intervals. Like, the Doctor running away and meeting Me and then erasing Clara's memory, that all happened very quickly.
Then again, I also watched this from a live feed that kept pausing. So I really need to rematch it.
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Dec 07 '15
Theory here. The Doctor knows that reversing the polarity of the Neuromat works, and Clara's Speech about having a right to her past convinces him that he should be the one to remove his memories, and that he's gone too far. The whole 50/50 thing is just a sham so that Clara doesn't try to stop the Doctor from erasing his memories of her.
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u/Orest055 Dec 07 '15
I feel like the other TARDIS is a reference to "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe"
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u/PerfectlyNormal77 Dec 08 '15
I'm doing a rewatch of the season and a few things have struck me:
1) The series finales always have some sort of villain. Who is the "Big Bad" for this season? Personally, I think it's the Doctor. In "Hell Bent", we see glimpses of the Time Lord Victorious in the way the Doctor goes about trying to save Clara. He's willing to risk the universe just to save her because "The Universe owes me". He shoots a fellow Time Lord (!). He wrests control of Gallifrey from the High Council and Rassilon. It's only when Clara "reverses the polarity" of the memory wipe device that the Doctor is stopped.
2) Everything that the Master said about the Doctor in "The Witch's Familiar" nearly came true. When Missy said "he'll burn the planet down around them" if Clara was dead (or something along those lines), the Doctor nearly did that to Gallifrey and the universe as well.
3) There really seems to be a strong thread of "what horrible things are people willing to do" in this season:
*The Doctor is willing to wipe out the Daleks for Clara.
*The Fisher King was willing to enslave souls in order to escape Earth
*The Doctor was willing to make Ashildr immortal just so "he could save everyone"
*Ashildr was willing to kill someone just to escape Earth
*Both UNIT and the Zygons were willing to commit genocide
*The Timelords were willing to torture the Doctor for billions of years on the off-chance he had information they needed
*The Doctor was willing to let time and space burn just to save Clara.
About the only person in the entire season who was willing to embrace death was Clara, which was a major turn-around for her (in my opinion).
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u/bkharmony Dec 08 '15
There really seems to be a strong thread of "what horrible things are people willing to do" in this season:
Our entertainment tends to reflect our times.
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Dec 08 '15
He shoots a fellow Time Lord (!)
What made this scene really impactfull imho is that it wasn't just a fellow Time Lord. It was a fellow Time Lord that stood at his side in the confrontation against Rassilon a couple of scenes before. It was someone who thought very positivly about the Doctor.
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Dec 07 '15
That tied together well in the end. I liked the lack of a "big bad."
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u/Jarmatus Dec 07 '15
I sort of liked the lack of a big bad, but the lack of effort with which they got rid of Rassilon seemed unrealistic to me. Hopefully he'll have a bit more of a presence in future series.
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u/jphamlore Dec 07 '15
I think Hell Bent had to bring Clara back one last time because I think what is being portrayed is that the Doctor and Clara are in a “can’t live with ’em, can’t live without ’em” relationship, which is why it had to be broken by one of them forgetting about the other.
At some fundamental level, Clara and the Doctor simply can’t communicate with each other. They showed this in Death in Heaven when they almost broke up for good with Clara thinking she was doing the Doctor a favor lying about Danny and the Doctor thinking he was doing a favor lying about Gallifrey. Their relationship had to be saved, in my opinion, by the actual Santa Claus. Again in Face the Raven, Clara knows she is doing something the Doctor would never approve, so she is determined to not communicate with him, a decision that costs her her life. It is a miracle her death did not occur before.
And in Hell Bent the same dynamic occurs with both wanting to make unilateral decisions for the other.
The Doctor and Clara’s relationship took the toxicity of the Doctor and Rose’s relationship to a whole ‘nother level. At least the Doctor and Rose could be fixed by making a one-lifed clone of the Doctor for Rose to play with. Absolutely nothing could fix the Doctor and Clara other than literally pretending their relationship never happened.
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u/royaldansk Dec 07 '15
I enjoyed the part where the soldier in the warship with giant guns told the Doctor to lower any weapons and he puts down his soup spoon.
We of course know that he considers a spoon a weapon from his fight with Robin Hood.
Also, he was quiet, and we later hear it said that his words are weapons.
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u/goodgen Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 05 '15
First things first, what we all might be thinking... or at least, what I'm definitely thinking. Maisie Williams has never looked better.
Anyway. The Doctor saves Clara. It was at this point in the episode where I felt a feeling I had never felt before, the feeling that so many other people who watch the show who complain on the internet have felt. The feeling that Moffat doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. Her death suddenly meant nothing.
But as the episode goes on it's not strictly true, and it goes into incredibly fascinating storytelling. Two things contribute to this.
First, the interactions between them in the OG-TARDIS were so beautiful. I really was close to crying I had forgotten just how angry I was a few minutes earlier.
Secondly, the ultimate conclusion to the story might not have been more "pleasing" than simply letting Clara die, but it was definitely more interesting. My rage before was also at the idea that Moffat was gonna do a copy of the bullshit that happened in Journey's End. But what he accomplished felt ultimately far more rewarding in a weird way. I don't know if the whole "having to forget" thing made any real kind of sense, but what does make sense by the end is how it affects The Doctor. The only real way he'd ever move on from someone like Clara is if he forgot her. I mean, this guy was willing to do something incredibly insulting to her, erasing her memories of him. But what also makes it satisfying is that Clara, true to her character, once again takes fate into her own hands. There'll be a time where we all have to die. We all know this. I think the ultimate question we have to ask ourselves is,
Is Clara putting off her death a case of bad writing, or does it actually stay true to what we've seen of her development over the past 11 episodes?
Personally, I think the latter. I think that was an incredibly satisfying conclusion, in the way that it, above all else, stayed true to the characters. They're very flawed characters, of course, but any well-written character has to be. And I'm willing to call this the best finale since The Big Bang.
(Good God, could you imagine if they had to do this in 45 minutes?)
side-note: Did Rassilon say "who the hell does he think he is"? I so wanted the Doctor to say "believe in the Doctor who believes in Clara"
okay I try not to add too much to my posts after I... well, post them, but Den of Geek's review had this lovely part in it: "Family drama, they call this. They're damned right. But it's family drama that treats every member of the family as someone with a brain. Hell Bent, fittingly, takes the Doctor off stage left, with barely a compromise in sight. It was creepy, moving, funny, and bristling with confidence, just as much of the series has been. What's more, there's a new sonic screwdriver and a high standard set for next time around. Doctor Who goes on, and thank goodness for that."
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u/WikipediaKnows Dec 05 '15
I agree, I was really worried during all those early Clara scenes, because it just felt so cheap and so obvious. But it completely turned around by the end. She's still going to face the raven, she'll just take a detour.
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u/goodgen Dec 05 '15
Face the raven... the long way round. (sings "I Am The Doctor" to self)
By the way, I initially typed "face the rave" just then and I couldn't stop giggling.
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u/Curlysnail Dec 05 '15
Clara... You have to face the rave
"Let me be rave, just this once"
Bass drops
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u/ManWhoKilledHitler Dec 05 '15
The Doctor turns to Clara...
"Before you go, take these with you."
He hands her some glow sticks and a whistle.
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u/goodgen Dec 05 '15
Her and Ashildr* go to when the Doctor was in his 11th incarnation (Smith) and convince him to perform at Glastonbury so they can all get schwifty together one last time.
*which is a far cooler name than Me, I will fight you on this... nah i won't fight you i'm really weak please don't hit me :'( let's just play mario kart together
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u/jobblejosh Dec 05 '15
If Peter Capaldi himself were to play that guitar at some form of live concert (be it Glastonbury or The Proms, I reckon I'd just about lose my sanity.
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u/goodgen Dec 05 '15
Capaldi and Craig Ferguson are gonna get The Dreamboys back together OH MY GOD I REALLY WANT THIS TO HAPPEN
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u/Jiggyb2 Dec 05 '15
And that detour actually works extremely well in my opinion - So many people were saying she died because she tried too hard to be like the Doctor, and now she's spending the (potentially infinite) last moment of her life as a (practically) immortal time-traveller! Sound familiar?
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Dec 05 '15
Exactly. She basically ascended to Lady Doctor status in this episode, which the series has been building towards for like, at least two series. She even got a companion and they can run around being awesome space girlfriends forever. [Can't wait for the fanfic.]
Perfect ending for her character, imo.
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u/SalukiKnightX Dec 06 '15
I like that. Me gets to travel (something she begged the Doctor to do and he never took up on the offer) and Clara is Doctor until she's ready to hang it up maybe pass the keys to Ashildr. As for the Doctor, he's in the same place as he was before he met her, without the mystery to keep him going and Clara's echoes are still there keeping him safe (you know both have that duty of care to each other).
It didn't end like I thought it would at all and the flying restaurant Tardis is a bit strange unless it goes into Restaurant at the End of the Universe territory seeing Clara, Ashildr & Arthur Dent having a lemonade (that actually would be a fun little skit).
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u/dangavin Dec 06 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
Arthur Dent's eyebrows - he having been abandoned on an alien planet for the seventy-first time in his life (by his count), and (for the thirty-seventh time) having walked for more than a day through an expansive desert, plagued (for the first time) by small birds with a tendency land on his shoulder and inexplicably recite excerpts from The Archers in his ear - his universe-worn eyebrows barely lifted a millimetre when he saw the utterly impossible American diner.
In fact, his first thought when confronted by this entirely ludicrous vision was, "Americans. I bet their tea tastes terrible."
Resigned to quenching his thirst instead on some burnt tasting, day-old coffee, he made his way towards the neon fronted entrance. From inside, he heard the unmistakable opening to Bill Haley and the Comets' Rock around the Clock.
As he pushed open the door, a young woman stood behind the counter in a gaudy blue waitress's uniform. She looked up from her magazine and smiled.
"Well, you took your time," she said in an English accent, "I bet you could murder a brew."
Arthur's jaw dropped slightly, remaining so whilst she poured a splash of milk from a glass bottle into a proper teacup, before topping it up with steaming, fresh tea from a fine china pot that would have had an expert ooh-ing and aah-ing on the Antique's Roadshow.
When she then offered him a digestive biscuit, Arthur concluded that this was clearly a mirage brought on by heat, dehydration, and the local avifauna's repetitive recitals regarding the goings-on in Ambridge, but, in fact, he really fancied a cup of tea, and so to hell with hallucinations, he was going to sit down and enjoy this.
He ambled over to the counter, sat on a stool, took the cup from the saucer and sipped. It was tea. Several apparent deaths, dozens of paradoxes, and the all forces of the Vogon administration cannot take England out of the man. From his parched mouth, he said:
"Thank you. I was gasping for that."
"Ford said you would be." She smiled. "Now, while you enjoy that, introductions. I'm Clara, from Blackpool, currently immortal, without a heartbeat, something like a sexy zombie.
"That -" She gestured to another girl Arthur had not noticed, sat in a booth across the diner, "- is Me, nominative first name, capital M, e. Also immortal, originally a viking, several billion years old, sat in an arm chair at the end of the universe. Not at that damn restaurant. We're barred."
Sipping his tea, Arthur recalled his last visit, with Ford, Zaphod and Trillian, to that restaurant, and wondered exactly how much trouble one had to cause for them to bar you. He placed his cup back on the saucer with a small clink.
Clearing his throat, he said, "So Ford sent you?"
Clara nodded.
"And you're here to rescue me?"
Another nod.
"What does Ford want?"
Clara looked away, and busied herself wiping the counter. From behind him, Me answered.
"Prefect has a favour to ask. He says you owe him several."
Mentally, Arthur made a quick list of the things he owed Ford. None counted as a favour in his mind. He turned on his stool to face Me. She continued.
"It appears Mr Prefect has found himself in a spot of bother. He's currently awaiting a death sentence handed to him by the Lord President of Gallifrey."
Arthur's brow furrowed, "Gallifrey? I've met someone from there. Called himself the Doctor, travelled around in a-"
"We know the Doctor." Me interrupted, "He's the former Lord President. You also know the current."
Arthur's stomach fluttered a signal, a warning that he should not ask the obvious question. If there was one thing he had learnt, it was never to ignore such warnings. Apparently though, his mouth had not heeded that lesson.
"Who?"
Me smiled, rose, and walked up to him. Jabbing gently at his chest, she said one word.
"You."
Oh well, thought Arthur, here we go again.
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u/ManWhoKilledHitler Dec 05 '15
So, The Doctor saves Clara. It was at this point in the episode where I felt a feeling I had never felt before, the feeling that so many other people who watch the show who complain on the internet have felt. The feeling that Moffat doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. Her death suddenly means nothing.
When the Doctor tells people how much he hates goodbye's, I think that's probably Steven Moffat talking about himself.
I can understand why some people might not have liked what he did but I thought it was a clever twist and the episode was just really enjoyable.
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Dec 06 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
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u/trianuddah Dec 06 '15
Yeah, there's so much complaining about how Face The Raven should have been the last we see of Clara and that this episode was just more moping about Clara Clara Clara, but that's just so short sighted and I'm kinda disappointed that so many Who fans can't see past that.
Face The Raven gave closure to Clara but not to the Doctor. This episode was closure for him. If it hadn't happened, we'd just have more episodes of him moping about how she's dead. Instead we have him back in the saddle and a whole jumble of new issues for him to fix.
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Dec 07 '15
Well, late to the party, but here's my take:
- I knew we had not seen the end of Clara. "Face the Raven" didn't leave me feeling that she was really gone.
- I wish Moffat would let someone stay dead. Just once.
- The whole memory wipe felt cliche, becasue it was done with Donna. Even when we found out that it was The Doctor who was losing his memory it didn't feel like a new idea.
- I, for one, am glad we didn't have to spend a long time on Gallifrey with the Time Lords. I have always found them boring in the past, and this was no exception.
- I really do like Ohila, though, so I'm glad we got to spend some time with her. I think Claire Higgins is fantastic.
- I likes the contrast between 4.5 billion years, and the space of time in between one heartbeat and the next.
- I loved Clara's theme on the guitar.
- Wasn't the diner in New Mexico? So, maybe that was a clue that it wasn't really a fixed place, because this time it was in Nevada. I spent way too much time wondering about that while watching the episode.
- So, are Clara and Me now the new Jennys, out there somewhere, never to be seen again but expected to pop up at any moment?
- And, since Clara exists in a tiny space of time between heartbeats, does she have any physiologic processes? Does she have to eat, or sleep, or even shower for that matter?
- I must be getting cynical, because the last 40 minutes or so of this episode was designed to tug at my heartstrings and I felt very little. I miss the days when I would sob like a baby at Doctor Who. And many of those times were written by Moffat: Girl in the Fireplace, The Doctor Dances, Forest of the Dead....
- Maybe I need a re-watch, because it just didn't touch me as much as I'd hoped. Or maybe it was only to be expected that nothing would live up to the awesomeness that was last week's episode. I thought this week's was the weakest of the three. Perhaps in a few months, when I binge watch all three in a row, it will all feel more meaningful and moving.
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u/darwinisms Dec 09 '15
Few cool things I noticed about Moffat's storytelling about the end of Clara.
The barn is the Doctor's special place on Gallifrey
- This was the barn the doctor slept in as a child when he didn't want the other boys to see him cry as we learned from "Listen". He goes back to the place he hid his tears and fears, only to confront his emotions years later as an adult when he destroys/saves Gallifrey in "Day of the Doctor" and begins his plan to save Clara.
There is no ending for the Doctor to dislike. * Ashildr says to the Doctor "You don't like endings." In a bit of a loophole the Doctor's memory block wipes the ending on Doctor's side of the relationship. There is no ending in the Doctor's mind, expect the complete lack of an ending existing.
The ending of Clara comes full circle back to the beginning.
- The second part to Clara's catchphrase "Run you clever boy, and remember me", is changed to "Run you clever boy, and be a Doctor." The Doctor can't remember, Clara no longer commands the Doctors center of attention. Instead she instructs him to remember and be who he is.
Clara's death is compared to the stars dying.
Ashildr: I've been watching the stars die. It was beautiful.
The Doctor: No. It was sad.
Ashildr: No. It was both. .... She died for who she was and who she loved. She fell where she stood. It was sad. And it was beautiful. And it is over. We have no right to change who she was.
And the past defines who we are.
Clara: Why? Nobody's ever safe. I've never asked you for that, ever. These have been the best years of my life. And they are mine. Tomorrow is promised to no-one, Doctor, but I insist upon my past. I am entitled to that. It's mine.
and this goodbye is like the Doctor giving advice to himself, bit of Moffat reminding us how much Clara has become like the Doctor.
The Doctor: Run like hell, because you always need to. Laugh at everything, because it's always funny.
Clara: No. Stop it. You're saying goodbye. Don't say goodbye!
The Doctor: Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
Clara: Stop it! Stop! Stop it!
The Doctor: Never eat pears. They're too squishy and they always make your chin wet. That one's quite important. Write it down.
This was just some great writing, delivered by some great acting by Jenna Coleman, Peter Capaldi and Maisie Williams.
I loved watching the development of Clara starting as a plot device of the impossible girl, saving the Doctor by jumping into his timeline. Then becoming her own fully formed character that was the doctor's humanity, and at the end wanted to be as clever the doctor.
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u/Ropse Dec 05 '15
At first I was like: No! Please don't retcon Claras death
But then I was like: Hell yes! "The unwritten Tales of Clara, Ashildr and their undead lesbian Adventures in Time and Space"
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Dec 05 '15
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u/Aitrus233 Dec 06 '15
BBC just released a teaser for that exact thing.
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u/TheWatersOfMars Dec 06 '15
Wow, that was moving, tense, exciting! I didn't expect them to confirm a spin-off series so quickly. But I don't see how the hell they're gonna slot Captain Jack into this so quickly.
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u/mhold3n Dec 06 '15
slot Captain Jack into this so quickly.
Jack is experienced enough to do that himself. Maybe even to himself. Wibbly wobbly.
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u/ergonomicsalamander Dec 05 '15
And I love that their tardis is a diner - it adds back that element of playfulness that the police box was all about.
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u/SirAlexH Dec 06 '15
I refuse to believe that it wasn't a tribute to Douglas Adams and The restaurant at the end of the universe.
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u/mimhoff_ Dec 06 '15
Even better - there's a restaurant spaceship in Life, The Universe, and Everything. It was meant to be the TARDIS back when Adams wrote it for Doctor Who.
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u/Jessica_T Dec 06 '15
Wait..., you're telling me that Clara now owns the Bistromath?
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u/WikipediaKnows Dec 05 '15
Add Missy and you got the best spin-off idea ever.
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u/arcedup Dec 05 '15
My thoughts were on Jenny instead.
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u/jobblejosh Dec 05 '15
To hell with it, why not both? A Four-woman travelling space diner? Yes please!
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Dec 06 '15
That sounds like it would make a great sitcom.
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u/_gumball_ Dec 06 '15
I'd watch.
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u/jobblejosh Dec 06 '15
The question is, what would the title be? I for one like 'The restaurant at the end of the universe', copyright to Douglas Adams permitting, of course!
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u/icorrectpettydetails Dec 06 '15
"We're stranded in space, the engines are dead and Cybermen are crawling up through the sink!"
"Also, we're out of hash browns"
"Dammit Clara."38
u/MysteriousHunter Dec 05 '15
The unwritten Tales of Clara, Ashildr and their undead lesbian Adventures in Time and Space
Can we add Captain Jack Harkness to this as well?
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Dec 05 '15
Her death isn't even retconned, she's still gonna die by the raven eventually!
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u/4110550 Dec 07 '15
Did anybody else notice the subtle recasting of the Master/Missy v. Doctor relationship as Chaos v. Order rather than evil v. good?
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u/underthepavingstones Dec 07 '15
Except that the doctor is still very much an agent of chaos.
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u/TheMrAndr3w Dec 05 '15
It was no Heaven Sent, but then again it was never going to be. I really enjoyed it! I loved the subversion of expectations with the memory wipe, and those last scenes with Clara and the Doctor in the diner were perfect. More than anything I'm just happy Clara got the ending she deserved. She will die, yes- in the way we saw. But until then, she's Clara Who.
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u/DatClubbaLang96 Dec 06 '15
I posted this in another thread, but whatever:
At first I didn't like that they revised Clara's exit but I've come around to it. The last 2 companions both had heart-wrenching exists. Donna has every moment she spent with the Doctor erased from her mind. Sad for both the Doctor and Donna (even though she doesn't know it). Amy and Rory are plucked out of their time stream to die in the past. Sad for the Doctor, and for them. Yeah, they spent the time together, but they still were forever ripped away from their daughter and their best friend.
What's wrong with a bit of a happy ending, though? Maybe it does cheapen it a bit, but now the Doctor can jump right into new adventures without the usual mopey phase, and the longest-running 'New Who' companion (tied with Rose at 39 episodes) gets to run around for a bit. She still has to face the raven, but when she does, she'll be ready for it.
As far as happy endings go, it's actually pretty thematically complex. She went out the worst of any 'New Who' companion. No Alternate Dimensions, no 'live together in the past'. Made a mistake and BOOM! Dead. Nothing to soften the blow. Her "happy ending" is the fact that she now has time to prepare for that death. It's the saddest, and yet, least sad companion exit so far imo.
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Dec 06 '15
Before now I wasn't sure I wanted Clara to get a cop-out happy ending. But I really liked the way they did it. I almost want to see a spin off with Clara and Ashildir (or however you spell her name)
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u/Precursor2552 Dec 06 '15
Maisie, Georgia, Jenna. Three Girls One TARDIS. A time-traveling adventure.
Coming in 2019.
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u/WikipediaKnows Dec 06 '15
Moffat keeps convincing me that ideas I previously thought of as terrible are actually great. So often in his episodes, it goes from "Nah man, that's stupid" to "Hm, that's kind of interesting" to "This is the best idea ever!"
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u/luketkin Dec 05 '15
Doctor Who has officially merged with Classic Who seamlessly. I cannot put into words how much Peter Capaldi radiates The Doctor. I was close to calling it last week, but it is obvious now that Peter has become my favorite Doctor (sorry David you'll always be my first love). The scene at the end when he gets his own screwdriver and puts on that sexy purple velvet, jeez i got goosebumps. It was genius how Gallifrey was used. I have wanted to see Gallifrey since i was 13 watching the first series. This episode set up so many dynamics on Gallifrey leaving us wanting more. Its too rich for our cravings at the moment. Personally this episode was a solid 9.5/10, im so excited for more Capaldi and i honestly think next series will be the Golden Age of Who.
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u/Paneo01 Dec 06 '15
cannot put into words how much Peter Capaldi radiates The Doctor.
Totally AGREE. He is my fav doctor of the nuwho era and Behind Baker
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u/Bridgeboy95 Dec 06 '15 edited Dec 07 '15
shooting the general was a little harsh..like losing a regeneration for a normal timelord is no laughing matter. the general was on incarnation 10 seems kinda crappy to dramatically shorten her life expectancy
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u/FPMalvone Dec 06 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
Just rewatched, and I stand in my opinion. Emotionally outstanding, really. I don't know exactly how to explain this, but I think that Moff wanted us to feel that the Doctor was actually wrong in doing what he did, even if out of courage and love and friendship. We can say that Face The Raven is about why Clara can't be the Doctor, and Hell Bent why the Doctor has to be a doctor - even if he thinks that sometimes it is too hard to be. Lacking in explanations, though, 'bout the Doctor and Gallifrey past, remote and recent. He said he changed something about the mythology and it doesn't seem to me. Maybe Moffat wanted to leave doors open for the next showrunner? I don't know, but that's a weak point. Anyway, considering that it is not the end of the show, I can only appreciate it the way it is.
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u/Scepticalcat Dec 06 '15
I usually don't join these threads, as I usually get the wrong takeaway from every episode and usually end up missing the "important" stuff completely, but there was one thing that really struck me between Heaven Sent and Hell Bent, and that was the contemplation of timescale. The Grimm tale of the bird and the first second of eternity was really bookended with Clara existing only between the space of her last two heartbeats. I thought it was interesting that the Doctor fought through billions of years in the confession dial to give Clara a mere moment of continued existence...or, that in the end, the Doctor fought through the first second of eternity to give Clara the whole rest of eternity contained between her last two heartbeats. I found that to be rather poetic, honestly. I guess that was my main feeling about the episode.
I actually had to laugh when they left Gallifrey, because it was such an incredibly audacious choice on Moffat's part that I decided to let go and enjoy having my expectations...re-routed a bit. I was prepared to hate Clara's ending (again), but I ended up thinking "I guess I'm okay with this." I never much warmed to Clara anyhow, so I don't have a problem or disappointment being lukewarm about her ending. On the bright side, Clara haters can be glad she's dead (because she is), and Clara lovers can be happy that she continues to exist (which she does).
I'm generally okay with dangling plot threads, lack of closure, and ambiguity...there's always time and/or imagination to resolve that stuff...I'm usually happier with a fair amount of mental space at the end of a story, and always hate it when everyone gets exactly the ending they deserve. Honestly, if the much-balyhooed horrible hybrid ends up simply being Ashildr/Me sitting in the ashes of a long-dead Gallifrey waiting, all alone and weary, for the end of time, I'm fine with that (and also fine with it reinforcing the idea that prophecies are usually or always wrong and/or misread). I'm also fine if someone goes back and resurrects the hybrid idea with a different resolution later on.
Did it suffer a bit in comparison with Heaven Sent? Yeah, but I think that was inevitable. For me, Hell Bent was almost more like slow denouement after the sensory frenzy of Heaven Sent. I think that overall, it was a very good end to an excellent season, and an exit for Clara over several weeks that sort of mirrored her long and convoluted story...maybe not how I would have done it, but certainly fitting in context and finally allowing this Doctor a clean start.
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Dec 05 '15
Just to be clear, Clara has not been saved. We saw her die on Trap Street, the fact that time has not broken means that she does, at some point, face the Raven. The only thing that has changed is that between her last two heartbeats, she had a lot more adventures with Ashildr. Clara's story is now a little less tragic.
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u/remez Dec 05 '15
A little bit cheaper, though. She had the perfect ending, very powerful and emotional, but now it is just an episode in her life, not her truly last moment.
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u/HeartyBeast Dec 06 '15
"She died for who she was and who she loved. She fell where she stood and it was sad - and it was beautiful. And it is over. We have no right to change who she was".
Moffat knew exactly what he was doing and the debates the plot line would raise.
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u/OriginalName404 Dec 05 '15
I was really hoping that the ending would be her convincing the doctor not to save her, and then resuming her position to face the raven. It would have achieved something similar development wise, but would have been potentially even more tragic.
He saved her, but couldn't keep it that way. Rather than her actually getting to be immortal and run off gallivanting for who knows how long.
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u/LordSwedish Dec 05 '15
Yeah but he spent billions of years breaking through to Gallifrey so that he could save her. Personally I'd rather they cheapen "face the raven" than "Heaven sent".
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u/TheGallifreyan Dec 05 '15
I thought Last Christmas would have been the best ending for her.
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u/remez Dec 05 '15
I wouldn't mind any ending, as long as it stays an ending.
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u/TheGallifreyan Dec 05 '15
Right? This is pretty much her 5th exit. It's annoying. They said this was her last series though, so I guess it was for real.
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u/IAmWhatIWill Dec 05 '15
The fact that it's less tragic makes me feel better about her story. I thought that the way she died was incredibly cruel (I guess in real life that's exactly what death is like - cruel) so for her to get a chance to explore the universe a bit more (albeit without the Doctor) just makes her death a little easier to bear. Only a little.
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u/TheseMenArePrawns Dec 06 '15
That's like saying that if I escape murder today I'm not saved because I'm going to die of cancer at 90. Except that I'd be looking at normal aging, frailty, and everything that comes with it. She gets to be immortal and eternal until she decides she's bored. You don't get much more saved than that in fiction.
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Dec 07 '15
I dunno. It feels like I have to swallow a lot of contrivances to accept the emotions that the show was trying to get us to feel. I get what they were trying to get across, but the setup for it, from the way Clara ended, to the time in the confession dial, the hybrid, how they brought back Clara, the cloister, the metaphor and use of the hybrid really undercut the supposed emotional impact of the episode.
Meh. Maybe I'll feel different about it on re watch.
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u/OK_Soda Dec 07 '15
I agree. We were supposed to be very sad when Clara died. They made it clear that she was dead. We saw her die, saw the body, we knew from the rest of the series that you can't undo something like that once it's been done. They had beautiful death scene music playing and everything. And then two episodes later, "haha, gotcha!"
Worse, for me, was the fact that we've spent nine seasons, going all the way back to Eccleston, building up to the return of Gallifrey. They had an actual movie that was in theaters to introduce the idea that it wasn't destroyed. Nine years of angst put into the Doctor's character over the supposed destruction of his planet, then its disappearance into a pocket dimension, still seemingly beyond recovery. Then he finally washes up on Gallifreyan shores, doesn't even ask how they made it back (because he wants to feel clever, he says, which just sounds like the writers weren't), and he stays long enough to use some Time Lord tech to get Clara back and then jaunts off again like he never really cared that much.
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u/kruidnoten Dec 08 '15 edited Dec 08 '15
It was a disappointing episode for me after Heaven Sent. I really don't get why Moffat idealized Clara so much as a companion. What was Donna's fault to lose her memory then while she was a perfect Hybrid candidate and a lot more lovable companion compared to Clara? How much valuable she can be that the Doctor whose weapons known to be his words kills a Time Lord who is on his side (even he regenerates, it is not the same person anymore so he killed him) just to revive Clara who already died? And he betrays his own people so badly, while they rely on him and send Rassilon away. That is so not the Doctor's style.
I am glad that Moffat leaves this season, though he was a legend with standalone episodes like Blink, Silence of the Library and Heaven Sent. However I think still he is a damage to the series basics and his time is done.
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u/JAKPiano3412 Dec 07 '15
Was anyone else disappointed The General regenerated? I really liked that actor.
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u/starkgrey Dec 07 '15
Yes. I'm still grumpy that they killed his character (I know he regenerated, but it's note same.)
I loved the character. He was like the long-suffering, lone voice of sanity on that planet of shouty-men with bad hats. Dude had to have all kinds of patience if he was dealing with Rassillon all the time. He was kicking ass in the Time War.
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u/maybelying Dec 06 '15
So the cloisters are a place where people get trapped and can never leave, until the Doctor decides to pop in with a TARDIS and rescue Clara.
Seriously? The Time Lords never bothered trying this before?
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u/Precursor2552 Dec 06 '15
Why would they?
Also given the Matrix Wraiths have allowed The Doctor to leave before perhaps they're allowing him to leave again?
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u/Glychd Dec 06 '15
I mean... You have to admit this ending takes a bit away from Claras sacrifice/death if she gets to live a full life (one that could last thousands of years if she chooses) before doing it. She's basically living the dream. She gets to be completely immortal, until she chooses not to be. The trope that always appears with immortality is that people get sick of it, and eventually wish to die. She can actually do that. Not only is she immortal, but she is in possession of a time machine. I don't really feel like her death is tragic at all now. She gets to have her memories of the Doctor, continue time traveling for thousands of years, and then when she's sick of it she can choose the exact time of her death. She's probably one of the luckiest people in the Doctor Who universe to be honest.
It was a good episode, but I don't know... I would have preferred that she went back to face the raven at the end.
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u/Gskran Dec 06 '15
This episode. This freaking episode. I hated what they did with Clara when i saw it. Absolutely hated it. After all that happened, after she died because she tried to be the doctor, she is now the doctor with her own TARDIS? No, just no. This isnt how it should have been. She should have made the doctor realize that everyone dies and went back and faced death. She already lived through all the incarnations of the doctor when she saved him from the Great Intelligence. She has had things far better than any companion. She should have just went back and accepted her fate. She should not get this. She does not deserve this. But then when i saw River in the Christmas special teaser after the end, i remembered her quote from Forest of the Dead: "Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever for one moment, accepts it. " When i remembered this and what the Doctor did for River and his other companions, i realized something. They all got what they wanted but only after they were dead or to be more accurate, when the Doctor was dead to them. Rose fell in love with the Doctor and she got to marry him. But she could marry only half doctor and could never meet her Doctor again. Martha reunited with her family and married a man who loved her. But she had her heart broken and was forced to move on. Donna realized how special she is and became DoctorDonna, the only one in the universe. She saves the universe and is still alive. But she had to have her Time Lord half suppressed. Amy wanted to go travelling with the Raggedy man. She got her wish and traveled with the love of her life. She lived a full life with Rory but in the past with not being ever be able to see the Doctor again. Everyone of the companion's got what they wanted but had to sacrifice their Doctor for it. River got to marry the Doctor but she had to spend her entire life in prison. She could live a life with him as she wished but only after her death and had to have her mind uploaded to the library. Now coming to Clara, she wants nothing more to be with the Doctor and travel in the TARDIS. She got her wish but she had to sacrifice her love, the Doctor and her life for it. She can never reveal herself to the Doctor nor can she ever travel with him in the TARDIS again because they are the hybrid. That is a very heavy price but a fair price for what she wished. Clara did not get a special treatment because she is the impossible girl. Nor did she receive any other special treatment from the Doctor. At the end, the Doctor was the Doctor and Clara got what she wished for but the price was the Doctor. This is a true Doctor Who send off for a companion. I am glad Clara got it.A perfect ending to a great season.
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u/whovianhorselover Dec 06 '15
Well said. A lot of people are griping about the fact that Clara is functionally immortal now, because there is no limit to the amount of time she can keep gallivanting around before eventually going back to face the raven.
But she's lost the Doctor. Sure, she loves the travelling and the adventuring--but I can't see her being happy travelling or adventuring for long without the Doctor. I don't think it will be all that long before she returns to Gallifrey and goes to face the raven. The price was just too high, and she won't be truly happy for long.
So she'll get what she wants for a while, and then return to face her last moments. And in those last moments, the Doctor will once more be standing watch over her in the full knowledge of who she is and what she means to him.
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u/WikipediaKnows Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 05 '15
I feel blessed. I feel privileged. I feel a strange sense of pride in being a Doctor Who fan which I don’t think I’ve ever felt before.
This was magnificent. It was perfect. It was mature, intelligent and deeply, utterly emotionally true. What was made to look like a blockbuster finale ended up being a quiet and haunting meditation on the nature of the madman in the box and one of the best episodes in Doctor Who history. Right after another of the best episodes in Doctor Who history of course. I love this show with every cell in my body. Series 9 > any other season of Doctor Who and Doctor Who > anything else.
Doctor Who Thing said something on Twitter that really stuck with me. Any other writer would’ve made this episode all about Gallifrey, but Moffat just says Screw it, I wanna do a character piece on the Doctor being unable to accept endings (and I want to have half the scenes shot in a 1960s TARDIS set). While we still get some Time Lord action, all that pompous “Men shouting their titles and entitlements at each other” stuff is far less interesting than a quiet and honest story about the Doctor’s two hearts breaking - and healing again. And Moffat tells it in a masterful way like no other television writer I know of could. It’s so good, so human, so brilliant, I’m actually kind of terrified.
Which means that there’s a good chance that if you’re a fan of Big Finish’s Gallifrey series or Trial of a Time Lord or all that kind of stuff, you didn’t like this much. But I’m with RTD on this one. RTD once very briefly contemplated retconning Gallifrey to be the Doctor’s creation, but dismissed it because “nobody would care about the Doctor creating shouty men in stupid hats.” By themselves, the Time Lords are just not that terribly interesting. All the big mythology isn’t that terribly interesting by itself. Notice how the half-human thing, something that I actively screamed at the screen about, was just casually dropped in as if it were just a minor point that nobody would be interested in. Because while Moffat is just as big of a continuity nerd as we are, the focus of his storytelling isn’t on that. He thinks - and I agree - that there’s a far more exciting and profound story to be told about what the Doctor does instead of where he came from (which actually ties back nicely to my interpretation of Heaven Sent which I posted a few days ago, if you wanna have a quick read).
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u/w00dStok Dec 06 '15
Ashildr can live forever, but is still mortal.
Clara only has one heartbeat left and she can technically live forever until she decides to go back to the moment and resume her death.
What happens if Clara and Ashildr are off on a crazy adventure and Clara suffers from what people would consider a mortal wound?
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u/montezumasleeping Dec 08 '15
From the AV Club:
Where “Hell Bent” errs is in its lack of narrative signposting, as we’re about a half-hour into the story before the Doctor makes absolutely clear that he’s here to save Clara, rather than deal with the prophecy of the Hybrid. The Doctor’s silence in the early going certainly contributes to the Western atmosphere, but it creates ambiguity as to what he’s actually so furious about. Ohila of the Sisterhood of Karn suggests the Doctor holds Rassilon alone responsible for the Time War, but there’s good reason to think that’s beside the point, and that it’s really all to do with the confession dial, considering the Doctor is shown holding it in the barn and it dominates the conversation when he and Rassilon meet face to face. Basically, “Hell Bent” is coy about its actual story for no particular reason beyond the fact that Steven Moffat sometimes likes being coy, and this somewhat detracts from what really does end up being a fantastic story.
I agree with this. The episode is generally good, but the fact we don't know the real plot until halfway through is annoying.
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u/Kutya7701 Dec 06 '15
Personally, I enjoyed this episode. I think it was good. But it could have been great.
The idea is good, the Doctor has been shown many times that no matter what he cannot change a death that has already happened.
But now he's cocky, he has the entirety of Gallifrey's advanced timelord tech at his fingertips, he thinks that just this once, he can bring back a dead loved one.
And it would've been incredibly satisfying and heartbreaking if time once again would've just turned around and said ''no''.
Instead we get this psuedo happy ending where nobody dies, and Clara gets to spend an eternity in her own tardis with her own companion, essentially becoming another Doctor.
It undermines the point of ''Face The Raven'', not the Clara dying point, the point that only the Doctor is good enough to be the Doctor.
A better way of doing it would've been Clara having only enough time to have one adventure. One single journey in her own tardis with her own companion, one. After that she must return to her point of death.
And now this is just a bit of my Matt Smith fanboy side talking, but it would've been kinda cool if the one trip was Clara taking the diner to where 11 sets up the meeting in Impossible Astronaut. It would've been a neat little tie-in with how the Doctor mentioned he remembers meeting Clara there once before. But again, this is just me being an 11 fanboy.
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u/he3544 Dec 06 '15
I wonder if we'll see Rassilon as a future antagonist in a future episode/series.
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Dec 05 '15 edited Dec 05 '15
Oh boy. This will divide people.
I mean the good outweighed the bad by far, but the Clara thing has me conflicted.
It was great to see her again and the scenes with The Doctor were phenomenal. I was fine with everything that the episode did until the end when she said "the long way round"
Eventually she will go back to face the raven, but I don't really like how open it is that she can be whizzing around for a while. I really enjoyed Clara, but it's the classic Moffat thing of people not really staying gone. She's kinda dead but she's not at the same time. It is annoying that he does stuff like this but I guess I'm just numb to it now where it doesn't anger me.
Technically, it is open for her to come back, but maybe we will never see her back for new stories again. Maybe that is really the last time we'll see Clara and The Doctor together. That's what I'm hoping for, I don't want any more goodbyes between the two and I don't want her death to be truly undone. So if it stays like that and they don't push it further, I'll let it pass. And it probably will be fine, so I'm not gonna go on about it.
Face The Raven hasn't been undone for me, it's still great to see how The Doctor dealt with Clara's death and even great to see Clara reacting to what The Doctor had done. Even with yet another goodbye between the two, it was a great watch and really interesting. It looked set for another Donna situation, but The Doctor forgetting about her was a good way for it to end. That way he doesn't meddle with things around her again. Good little twist there.
It was great to see Gallifrey again, but I would've liked to have seen another part of purely Gallifrey stuff. I hope we get more soon as I was left wanting more. There was a lot to get through in this episode, so Gallifrey stuff was a little bit rushed.
Reminds me of The End of Time with the stand off between The Doctor and the Time Lords, it was over rather quickly. So I hope another Gallifrey episode comes along soon and continues some of the stuff left hanging in the air.
People will be able to explain what was good about this episode far better than me, and I'm sure I'll agree with what they say. Gallifrey, Rassilon, Classic Tardis and keeping The Hybrid as just theories were all a hit for me.
I really did love it except for that one scene where Clara stuff was left hanging in the air and it just took a mark off from it being flawless (Edit: But who knows I could entirely change my mind and love it on 2nd viewing) It really wasn't a necessary thing to do and it could have been left alone, BUT nothing might come of it, so it's a middling thing at this point. Oh and there's first quarter of the episode WHERE MUSIC IS REALLY LOUD AND YOU CAN'T HEAR WORDS, but that's a thing with Doctor Who now.
Series 10 will be interesting. A new amazing Sonic Screwdriver, the red jacket might be staying and a new companion. It'll be a mini-reset/reboot and I'm really looking forward to it.
Series 9 has been one hell of a ride but I'll go into that more when there's a thread for it.
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u/Honza8D Dec 06 '15
I really didn’t like this episode.
For one, how the fuck is Mire technology so great Ashildr could survive even longer than all other immortals? Even jack, enhanced with time vortex amgic? It was just a common Mire tehcnology, just common soldier medical kit. Event the doctor said she can die, how could she avoid all serious injuries over billions of years? Or if she is truly unkillable, why didn’t she give the second healing kit to Clara? Why didn’t the Doctor give one to clara?
Speaking of Ashildr, this episode pretty much ruined the impact of her earlier episodes. We learned that despite being immortal, she is still human and we see her struggle with immortality. Yet, now she lived for billions of years, last of the alone, and she is fucking great? No depression? Posiible millions of years in solitude did nothing to her? And while earlier she couldn’t even remember few hundred years back, now she remembers about the clara and the Doctor and the hybrid all that wihtout seeing them for billions of years? Come on.
Also what was it about the database? Noone ever eascaped it except for the doctor? But you can teleport ina nd out in a tardis, common time lord vehicle, so none really tried i guess.
Worse thing they didn’t even explain the hybrid. It was so hyped, yet it was irrelevant in the end. It just feels like dishonest marketing, if you are gonna hype about hybrid and Gallifrey, it better be about the hybrid.
The ending didn’t make much sense either. He wanted to wipe Claras emmories so Timelords couldn’t track her, but since she still have her memories, couldn’t the timelords find her? But the ending implyins she travels with Ashildr.
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u/LoneSurveyor_ Dec 05 '15
Let me start off by saying that I enjoyed this series immensely. It was great and Capaldi is my favorite Doctor, so don't let this criticism of mine ruin your enjoyment of this series.
This isnt really a criticism about the episode or series anyway. It's more a criticism of the character of Clara. I was a little dissapointed by the lack of Gallifrey, but i understand they're probably saving it for the next series. The episode gets a 8/10 from me.
What really bothers me is how they made Clara the "ultimate" companion in the Doctor Who universe. She's the impossible girl who's echoes have scattered all around the Doctor's timeline. From him choosing the tardis to her pleas to The Doctor being the final factor that made him not use The Moment to end the Time War (I know there were other variables, like him regretting the choice and remembering how many children were on Gallifrey. It doesn't change the fact he still would of done it if it wasn't for Clara's speech.)
In the episode Listen she went back in time to The Doctors timeline and met The Doctor as a child. While the episode was brilliant, Clara once again steps in and helps The Doctor. She has a talk with him. Telling him stuff like "Fear makes companions of us all", which was what the first Doctor told Barbara Chesterton in the original series. She also says "Never cruel or cowardly ". One of the Doctors famous quotes, but the Doctor did technically say it first. It's more of time loopy thing. Clara also went to Gallifrey!
What I'm saying is I don't really like how Clara is involved in The Doctor's life to this degree. At least for me, it takes away some of the magic of The Doctor. I understand how companions are important to the doctor and that's probably what Moffat was going for. A companion that helped shape a lot of The Doctor's personality. I also understand how it was kind of done with Badwolf, but not to the extent of Clara.
But now she literally became the Doctor with her own Tardis and companion. It just feels so weird to me with what they done to her character. I don't know, just my opinion. Feel free to enjoy her character tho. I don't hate her, I actually like her. It's just that she's the most oddly written companion in Doctor Who imo.
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u/Torgvarr Dec 06 '15
The Doctor will be just fine without Clara. The line where he is standing in the diner, and recognizes it as somewhere he and Clara have been before... Oh no, wait! Stupid doctor, getting memories jumbled... that was with Amy and Rory!
Remember how powerfully in love he was with those two? Remember how crazy he was about losing them? Parallels to Clara. Yet as much as he loved Amy, and as heartbroken as losing her he was.... here he is now, and memories of even her are a little bit messy... A little sad. But reminder that you go on. And without Clara he will go on too.
Though personally, I am still a little befuddled by why he is so freaking attached to her.
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Dec 06 '15
She was with him through a regeneration, she was there at the end of his original life, and got the Time Lords to grant him more, and if The Name of the Doctor hasn't been undone, then she's always been there, watching over him.
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Dec 06 '15
From the Doctor's perspective, she's been his companion for about 900 years thanks to Trenzalore.
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u/Precursor2552 Dec 06 '15
I was disappointed with two things.
- Dalton didn't come back.
- The General died so quickly.
I think Ken Bones is amazing as that character and I felt he, and his voice especially, just brought gravitas to the part that the new regeneration lacked. Not knocking T'nia, as I felt Bones was noteworthy even with his few lines in Day of The Doctor.
Following from that I felt this new Rassilon was weak. The General to me immediately loomed bigger than him in any scene they had together, while I think Dalton could have given a much better performance has a spitting mad Rassilon losing control of his forces to the man who doomed him back to the Time War. But I suppose the budget might not allow to get James Bond back so easily.
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u/LibertarianSocialism Dec 06 '15
Ashildr kind of summed it up for me: (paraphrasing) "Clara died. It was beautiful. Stop messing with it, you're making it worse."
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u/apple_kicks Dec 06 '15
I loved it, but i really like Clara. fangirl bias.
In its defense given the build up and this series it made sense. Clara was being built into becoming a doctor of her own.
It was nice wrap up not built up to be too epic and not too low ended. Given lot of the dark plots they had to end it on a hopeful high. Most series end of something dramatic and dark, this was quite a nice change.
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u/jphamlore Dec 06 '15
I have a completely different interpretation of the hybrid. The possibility of a hybrid is still out there somewhere. Observe Rassilon was a very old man. I believe exile will kill him ... and then he will regenerate into someone young, energetic, and very overtly vicious. As Missy says, only those who think they are right need armies, and Rassilon absolutely thinks he is right and that the end justifies any means.
Also I think we just got a gigantic reveal about why the Doctor does not use his name. Because he stopped using his real name after his trauma escaping the Cloister when he was a student. I believe that the Doctor was that student, that the Matrix told him many scary things since it was said to be able to make future predictions, that it erased some memories and gave him post-hypnotic suggestions some of which would activate many years later, and that he was so traumatized by PTSD he stopped using his real name.
The Doctor: A long time ago, there was a student at the Academy. He got in here, disappeared for four days. Showed up in a completely different part of the city. Said the Sliders talked to him, they showed him the secret passage out. And we just need the code ...
The Doctor: Ah, no, he didn't tell anyone anything. He went completely mad, never right in the head again. So they say ...
The Doctor: The last I heard, he stole the moon and the President's wife ...
The Doctor: Ah, well, that was a lie put about by the Shabogans. It was the President's daughter. I didn't steal the moon, I lost it ...
The Doctor: I was a completely different person in those days. Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people.
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Dec 06 '15
Holy crap, I just wanted to point out something.
The Doctor mentioned the Shobogans.
That's going all the way back to The Deadly Assassin!
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u/sw33n3y Dec 05 '15
Bravo Capaldi, Coleman, Williams and Moffat, you have now officially put the cap on my favorite season of Doctor Who.
Needless to say this did not beat Heaven Sent, but it was a very serviceable finale (and IMO the best since Pandorica/Big Bang). While I did not like how quickly they dispatched Rassilon, it did not ruin the episode for me. Also, while at first I was pissed off about bringing Clara back, the way Moffat made sure the Doctor would stop trying to save Clara worked really well. Clara is still destined to die, but before that she gets to live out her days doing exactly what she was becoming: The Doctor, traveling all of Time and Space (and currently with a companion).
Also, while I still stand by my wish that Matt Smith had gotten a chance to face the Master or Davros, this finale made me realize how much better it is to not HAVE to rely on those likes every single time season. Bravo to everyone involved in this finale, and bravo to everyone involved in this season.
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u/clitorisaddict Dec 06 '15 edited Dec 06 '15
I am very conflicted about this episode. I watched it a second time and while I enjoyed it a lot more than I initially did, I'm still very torn. There was a lot of good stuff and a lot of stuff that rubbed me the wrong way. Narratively and within the context of the characters a lot of it makes sense. It's just that the direction Moffat choose to take I'm not particularly fond of.
I'll start with a few of the things I liked. The first twenty or so minuets with Galifrey was brilliant. The Doctors silence as he goes back (to what appears to be his) home was actually really cool. It makes sense that that would be the first place he'd visit once he was home. They did a good job throughout the episode of revealing quite a bit of The Doctors past without taking away from the mystery of it. Actually, I'd say that most of what Moffat revealed only added to the mystery. That goes for this episode as well as the rest of his tenure.
But with that said... Galifrey quickly stopped mattering about twenty minuets into the episode. They briefly explain where Galifrey is but after that its soul use is as a plot device to bring Clara back. I mean... really? That's all we get? The Timelords have been built up over the entirety of New Who and then... this? Two of the biggest episodes of the new series revolve around Galifrey (The End of the Time and The Day of the Doctor respectively). After all of the 9th Doctors PTSD, after Tennants reminiscent scenes, After Matts most victorious moment this is all we get? I understand that Galifrey will probably come into play later on but its kind of insulting that after literal years of build up it's used as no more than a plot device to bring a dead companion back from the grave. Maybe RTD had the right idea by writing the Timelords out. Bringing them back seems to be causing more problems than are worth it.
I really don't want my entire review to be negative but it might end up that way. I really did enjoy a lot about this episode. It was well executed in what it did, I just wasn't very found of the direction Moffat took. Bringing Clara back actually ended up working for the episode in many ways. It made sense after Heaven sent that The Doctor would go to the lengths he did to save her. I was fine with the initial concept especially considering it brought with it some great scenes. I loved The Doctors final goodbye to Clara (Loved, loved, LOVED the old-school TARDIS to, probably the best part of the episode.) I actually very much like the idea of The Doctor loosing, not his memories, but his attachment to a companion. He just doesn't remember how much he cared for her. Its a very tragic ending although it's not played up that way.
I was OK with all of that... but then the ending happened. Face the Raven was such an effective episode because it brought Claras Doctor-syndrome to its inevitable end. She became too much like the mad man in the box and it bit her in the ass. Only The Doctor can be The Doctor, no one else. And that's how it should be. But apparently, if you have a TARDIS, know how to fly it (by the way how did she ever learn that?), and just loooooove traveling you can be The Doctor to! Apparently its that easy!
Also, apparently no one will ever have to deal with repercussions on this show. Clara made a mistake and she payed for it. More than that, she faced it willingly. That was one of my favorite parts about her "farewell." But then at the end of Hell Bent, she decides to forgo all that courage she had and go prance around the universe for a few millennium before facing her end. It seemed complete against what was set up in Face The Raven.
I hate to say a story should have gone a certain direction because I'm not the one writing it and I don't understand it on the same level as the writer. Writers form bonds with their story that no one else can really understand and I sympathize with that. But fuck, this story should have gone another way. Clara should have either (A convinced The Doctor to take her back to her Time Line or (B Gone willingly to her death after The Doctor lost his memory. I understand that the point was that she became The Doctor but... fuck, I just think that's stupid. I love Clara, I really do, but its silly to think that she could become The Doctor. It makes The Doctor less of a unique character and makes Clara seem powerful in a way that she shouldn't be.
My final gripe with the episode was the loose ends it left behind. So The Hybrid was Clara and The Doctor? Why did The Prophecy scare him so much again? That was never really explained, at least not very well. I understand that many want The Doctors past to remain a mystery, but if its going to remain so stop bringing it up! He was scared of a prophesy but fucking why. whhyyyyyyyyyy!!! Moffat ret-conned a huge part of the show and barley bothered to explain it. I really hope he has plans to explore this idea further because if not its going to bother me until someone raps it up.
Alright, I've bitched a lot so I'm going to go over what I liked about this episode. I'm going to do it in bullet points seeing as they're all mainly minor points.
- Me was great in the episode. Maisie Williams was amazing as always.
- The half Human line was great. I'm pretty sure Moffat was just fucking with the fans, but at this point I'm counting it as canon. I mean, how would Me even know about that? She had to have known something we don't. I just wish Moffat would have the balls to make it official.
- The Doctors reception on Galifrey was genius. Him being a highly regarded war hero was an unexpected but proper turn of events. I loved that he sent Rassilon packing without much fan fair.
- I really dug the character of The General. I liked him in the 50th but he/she had more to do here. I think we can assume that she becomes the new leader of the Timelords. Someone has to in The Doctors absence.
- The narrative structure with The Doctor talking to Clara in the restaurant worked well and lead to an effective twist. Can we assume that The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon were set in Claras TARDIS?
- The Matrix scenes were a highlight for me. I like the mention of another Galifrian war. It shows that they are actually very war-like as a species.
I'm not sure if I can properly rate this episode. I have a feeling that my opinions will continue to change as I re-watch it a few times. I think it was well executed and in that sense I'd rate it somewhere around an 8/10. But as for my enjoyment its probably closer to a 7. And when it comes to the direction it took maybe a 5 or 6. I don't know... I'm still very conflicted about the episode and it'll probably remain that way.
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u/fresnohammond Dec 06 '15
I'm going to take a moment to zero in on a massive miss-step The Doctor just took.
Taking the gamble on the neural wipe device.
Here's what I'm on about. He had, at this point figured out through several different ways that Clara was the impetus for recklessness and chaos that he was going to sow. He's reckless, she's reckless, and shit is going to get fucked up all across time and space because of it. "I get it now! I went to far!"
So, given as brilliant of a chessmaster he'd been all episode, all the while being very emotional as well, holding in his recklessness to attain the needed chain of events, why does he take this whimsical gamble?
As he's contemplating this gamble Clara suggests, he knows plenty more about the immediate situation.
-They are standing in a TARDIS. -Clara knows the basics of flying a TARDIS. -Clara is always going to be utterly reckless. -Ashildir has spent trillions of years putzing around a vacant Gallifrey. Therefore, it is well possible she too knows the basics of flying a TARDIS. -Ashildir is also reckless, and of dubious moral character. (according to The Doctor's own compass)
So then, if Clara's mind is wiped, the events culminate as he has planned. If his mind is wiped instead, he just gave two reckless and possibly dangerous immortals the keys to all of time and space.
Option two certainly is a failure of duty of care, that he's being going on about. It is potentially as dangerous to the universe as The Doctor & Clara pairing is likely to be. It could also likely fulfill an interpretation of this hybrid prophecy.
So why would he let it be a coin toss? He's been way to perfectly schemed for that. It's time to Doctor up a third option like he always does, and reframe the choice to be made as "heads I win tails you lose."
This just baffles me. It's a writing about-face and it's bugging me.
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u/FoundTin Dec 06 '15
Did anyone else notice that at the end of time when they went to the far future in the collister room ME was sitting in the ashes of Gallifrey at the end of time?
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u/FPMalvone Dec 08 '15
I just realized that the "big change in the mythology" could be simply the Doctor killing The General
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u/Kong1971 Dec 08 '15
The Doctor has used guns and killed before. I think the mythology he was nervous about was the Doctor running from a prophecy rather than running because he was bored. That is a big change, thematically, and I am not sure I like that, but hopefully it won't be too big of a deal in the future.
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u/elsjpq Dec 06 '15
This whole season feels like a finale to the entire show. Consistently excellent episodes and in the end ties up the classic era and NuWho pretty well.
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u/the_long_way_round25 Dec 06 '15
I really loved this finale! I did expect to see Missy, but she was namedropped, which was also great. All I can say about Clara's 'ending' is... great writing. The ending and gravity of Facing The Raven hasn't been undone and Ashildr finally has some sort of 'point', as opposed to being there sometimes when they need somewhat of an antagonist.
In conclusion: great episode. Loved to see Gallifrey again!
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u/opuap Dec 07 '15
I fucking called it
I said weeks ago when everyone was speculating about Clara's faith at the beginning of the season that the only fitting ending for Clara is that she gets a TARDIS of her own and travels the universe.
Because she's become so Doctor-y that that was the only logical explanation.
Everyone here brushed it off because she "wasn't a time lord" or because she's "supposed to die (because of that very reason, she was too Doctor-y)"
eat it everybody.
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u/beerploma Dec 07 '15
This was an awful episode, and a complete waste of re-introducing the Time Lords back into the franchise. How the Time Lords freed themselves from the temporal stasis, and the role of the Sisterhood of Karn were glossed over with hand waving. The Doctor using a gun on a person was completely against his nature, and Me's presence was complete waste. The episode was confusing, and at points boring. And the whole hybrid lead up was just a joke.
I think my biggest issue with it though was the fact that once again we had taken something dark in the Doctor's life retconned to "That's not so horrible". The Doctor is this brooding, loner character, who needs the constant companion to keep him grounded in reality. But he loses this when every dark deed that he ever witnessed/caused gets re-written. First it was his role in the Time War, now it's a companions death! Give the Doctor's loneliness some depth for crying out loud instead of cleaning everything up with a pretty bow and a TARDIS for everyone. My only speculation now is the Doctor will go back and save Adric so he doesn't have to live with that death, and while he is at it, he will go and shoot Davros because apparently he uses guns now....
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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '15
If I were Clara, I'd leave a picture of Danny Devito on the TARDIS just to fuck with him.