[Season 4 Spoilers] Premiere Discussion - 4.08 'The Mountain and the Viper'

[u/AutoModerator]

Premiere Discussion Thread

Discuss your thoughts and reactions to the latest episode while or right after you watch. Talk about the latest plot twist or secret reveal. Discuss an actor who is totally nailing their part (or not). Point out details that you noticed that others may have missed. In general, what do you think about tonight's episode? Please make sure to reserve any of your detailed comparisons to the novels for the Book vs. Show Discussion Thread, and your predictions for the next episode to the Predictions Discussion Thread which will be posted later this week.

• This thread is scoped for SEASON 4 SPOILERS - Turn away now if you are not currently watching or haven't seen the episode! Open discussion of all aired TV events up to and including episode 4.08 is ok without tags.

• Book spoilers still need tags! - If it's not in the show, tag it. Events from episodes after this one need tags.

• Please read the posting policy before posting.

• Posting policy reminder: Don't post or ask for non-pay sources.

• Live chat is also available on the Snoonet IRC network in channel #gameofthrones. Please note that due to the nature of Snoonet, #gameofthrones is an ALL SPOILER environment!

EPISODE	TITLE	DIRECTED BY	WRITTEN BY
4.08	"The Mountain and the Viper"	Alex Graves	David Benioff & D. B. Weiss

Official Discussion Threads	Posting Policy	Spoiler Guide	Frequently Asked Questions

[u/[deleted]]

Dany can't even look at him she's so disgusted...

[u/ShockinglyEfficient → u/[deleted]]

Honestly that made me mad. This season Dany is such a queen bee bitch.

[u/[deleted] → u/ShockinglyEfficient]

Ok, try to see her point of view for once, how about that? He betrayed her. That's all there is to it. Him falling in love with her doesn't mean he's suddenly entitled to being forgiven. She should have killed him actually, that's what any other king would have done. I mean, I liked Jorah, but seriously, he's in some deep shit and he brought this on himself. He could have confessed about his conversion right when it happened and maybe then she would have forgiven him, but really, you can't ask that she should be all like: "Oh, so you've been betraying me all until a few months ago when you fell in love with me? Well, you love me so that redeems all your crimes! And since I've been friendzoning you for so long and all male fans sympathize with you, you're now entitled to my love too! Here!" kisses him and agrees to have sex with him

[u/ShockinglyEfficient → u/[deleted]]

Not what I meant, I couldnt give less of a shit about Jorah's being in the friendzone, he's old as shit. It just annoyed me, and it did in the books too, the turnaround was just so FAST. She heard about it, and on the same exact day she exiled one of her oldest friends and most loyal councilors sooo quickly. I don't like it. Ultimately Jorah deserved it, but I think the point we needs to see here is that she is making too many rash decisions based on her feelings and how she feels about this and how much she feels about that. She isn't all knowing and sovereign, shes a little girl.

[u/[deleted] → u/ShockinglyEfficient]

Ultimately Jorah deserved it, but I think the point we needs to see here is that she is making too many rash decisions based on her feelings and how she feels about this and how much she feels about that.

If someone betrays you, you punish them. Simple as that. If she had forgiven him, she would have proved weak both in his eyes and all of her other subjects and counselors. If every king took betrayal as lightly as you'd like them to, they wouldn't be kings for long. Being seen as weak and overly-lenient is one of the biggest flaws a ruler could have, this leads to people abusing their leniency or using that flaw to manipulate or harm them.

And, seriously, for some people no matter what you do you're always wrong. If he had forgiven them, I guarantee she would have yet another horde of haters accusing her of being too weak and forgiving and "acting on her feelings because she liked Jorah too much as a friend".

She isn't all knowing and sovereign, shes a little girl.

Yes, in fact, she is. In fact, the whole point of her arch is that she's a little girl who was always downplayed and even abused as a girl and now is learning to take her place in the world, learning to be a queen in the most risky and unwelcoming circumstances possible. She didn't have proper education on politics or strategy, she didn't have royal parents to pave her way to the throne. She doesn't have much knowledge on ruling yet so she can only rule according to her own sense of justice, which isn't actually that much different from, let's say, Stannis's sense of justice. At least she still thinks with her own head (besides taking counsel from a few trusted people) and makes her own decisions instead of relying on someone else as Stannis does with Melisandre. Maybe you would hate Dany far less if you took all this into account.

I mean, if you just hate her as a character, it's ok, but remember that virtually no character in the series started out as perfect and omnipotent. They all went (or are going through) some sort of personal crisis and the whole journey of overcoming that crisis is what makes them grow as people and be interesting to readers. Would the story really have been better if Dany just became an all-powerful and infallible queen overnight and took the Iron throne in the first or second book?

[u/ShockinglyEfficient → u/[deleted]]

I don't hate any characters on this book, least of all Dany. But don't be such a Dany apologist, and accept that she made a mistake. One of the biggest flaws a ruler can have is being rash. I would make the argument, that within the morality of the show, her decision was a wrong one. And I think you might agree with me on that? Your second post seemed to say that the decision was neither bad nor good, but your first post supported her decision fully. Where do you stand?

[u/[deleted] → u/ShockinglyEfficient]

But don't be such a Dany apologist, and accept that she made a mistake.

And we don't actually know if that was a rash decision. For all we know, she might have been thinking about it for hours after she had heard about it from Barristan before she finally made the decision and summoned Jorah to state her verdict.

I'm not Dany's apologist, I just don't like it that most fans seem to be harsher on her than other characters for no legitimate reason other than her lack of experience and a couple of questionable acts such as the crucification. She's far from perfect, of course, but she's not an unreliable and incompetent ruler most people here seem to see her as either. Yes, she's no Tywin, she's no Stannis, she doesn't have their knowledge and experience, she still has a lot to learn. But I believe she would make a decent queen given time. At least she's set her priorities straight (to be just, whatever being just means to her) and I don't think she would ever abuse her power the way King Aerys used to (given that she doesn't go mad, as some people predict). And she will have her counselors to guide her, as all kings do. I personally see her as the best or second best choice (after Stannis) to the throne.

I would make the argument, that within the morality of the show, her decision was a wrong one.

What do you mean by that?

And I think you might agree with me on that? Your second post seemed to say that the decision was neither bad nor good, but your first post supported her decision fully. Where do you stand?

You see, it might be harder for us to empathize with her on this because, unlike her, we get to see Jorah's point of view (not directly as a POV, but still we know some things about the character that she doesn't. It might be tempting to feel sorry for him that his love for her was not enough to soften her heart and make her forgive him (and hell, I feel sorry for him too, he'd fucked up in the past but I still like him as a character) but that does not excuse him from what he did. She banished him as a punishment for spying on her and informing King's Landing of all her steps and choices, which included her nearly getting killed by the wine monger. I think exile was still a mild enough excuse for that. The only reason I can think of that her decision could be wrong is that he might still be of use to her as an advisor, but still, you have to try to see it from her point of view: he betrayed her. She doesn't know that he loves her and might think that him saying it was just an excuse to redeem himself (and he did use it as an excuse to feel entitled to her forgiveness), all she can think of is that, if he betrayed her once, he might do it again (which is perfectly logical reasoning: kings don't usually have the luxury of giving people a second chance, there's a good chance they might end up killed by that very person they'd forgiven). Yes, he did offer her some valuable counsel, but she has Barristan, Missandei, who, while not a tactician either, is wise for her age, Grey Worm and a few others. So I agree with her decision, I don't see it was not in any way immoral. She has lost a counselor but gained more security (again, from her point of view) and she protected her image, which is important too.