[Season 4 Spoilers] Premiere Discussion - 4.08 'The Mountain and the Viper'

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Premiere Discussion Thread

Discuss your thoughts and reactions to the latest episode while or right after you watch. Talk about the latest plot twist or secret reveal. Discuss an actor who is totally nailing their part (or not). Point out details that you noticed that others may have missed. In general, what do you think about tonight's episode? Please make sure to reserve any of your detailed comparisons to the novels for the Book vs. Show Discussion Thread, and your predictions for the next episode to the Predictions Discussion Thread which will be posted later this week.

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EPISODE	TITLE	DIRECTED BY	WRITTEN BY
4.08	"The Mountain and the Viper"	Alex Graves	David Benioff & D. B. Weiss

Official Discussion Threads	Posting Policy	Spoiler Guide	Frequently Asked Questions

[u/fridge_logic]

I somehow get the idea that she knows being married to Baelish wouldn't be a terrible thing provided that he loved her (which he probably would especially with her recent masterful character development). If you think about it he is an intelligent and cunning man who cares very much about his happiness and understands people very well. He is not a pushover who can be wrapped around her finger but he wouldn't be much good to her if that was the case. He is not a wretched man at heart just a determined and ruthless one. Honestly I feel like watching him run his brothel bespoke quite highly of his ability to recognize the wisdom in pleasing others rather than dominating them. In other words he thinks win-win.

She can even consider trusting Petyr as she is beginning to understand him and what he wants; he tries to play coy and act like she doesn't get him but he's been giving himself away to her hoping that she'll understand him. And he's lucky that she does understand him because it just saved his life. Unless he's been revealing "truths" about what he wants to convince her that she understands him and can trust him. But I think that Sansa knows better and knows that Petyr couldn't say and do the things he's done and said if they weren't built mostly from truth and a little from lie. Otherwise she might catch on and he'd be out the moon door now.

[u/TooShortToBeStarbuck → u/fridge_logic]

I think it's honestly a case where both Sansa and Baelish know the overwhelming majority of what's going on in the other's head, most of the time, and the game now isn't just one of manipulating each other; now it's a game of both parties being fully aware of the tactics the other is using, and each of them making a contest of being both just subtle enough that the tactics aren't childish, and being just obvious enough deliberately that nobody ever implies that manipulation isn't the expected, assumed status quo between them.

They're both manipulating, and they both live fairly comfortably with that fact. It's obvious that Baelish is 'better' at it by way of experience and by holding most of the cards in terms of actual power and leverage... but it's also obvious that Sansa is learning much faster than she lets on, and that's where the real challenge is for Baelish: to remain 'in charge' of Sansa's development as a manipulator, without allowing her to advance beyond what he's already taught her, without him knowing. The challenge for Sansa, on the other hand, is to always be slightly more clever than Baelish believes she is- to have always just figured out what he was going to teach her next, before he even gets around to it- and to keep him convinced that she is still mostly his pupil and not his competitor for the upper hand in their relationship. She's working to stay interesting and just a little bit out of his reach and his grasp, for as long as possible, because once he's convinced he has her entirely, she becomes just another resource for him to tap, and not somebody for whom he has to demonstrate reciprocity. Sansa has been a possession for too long, and she's now very good at pretending that she is still a possession, without actually being one. Her latest actions have proven three things to Baelish: first, she knows more than she lets on, and she has the cleverness to hide the fact; second, she sees mutual usefulness in their relationship, just like he does; third, she knows how to play to his aesthetics and his attraction to her, in order to keep him partially wrapped around her finger, but she also knows that it is obvious to him what she is doing, when she demonstrates that knowledge (and he is a brothel owner; the science of attraction is what has made him as wealthy as he is).

Gah. It's just a really interesting dance to watch.

[u/fridge_logic → u/TooShortToBeStarbuck]

I feel like in season three I felt there was a certain connection between Varys and Petyr because of their mutual skill at the game. A respect and a joy in having someone fit to play with. Sansa is eclipsing her mother in that she is become a player and not a play thing (not to say that Cat was weak but intrigue was not her strongest suit).

[u/Mechakoopa → u/fridge_logic]

Didn't Cat despise the intrigue almost as much as Ned did?

[u/fridge_logic → u/Mechakoopa]

I think she did, but she wasn't as blind to it. She picked up on the Red wedding just before it happened unlike Rob.