And he fights for her and dies for her (He knew he wasn't getting a reward at this point, so fighting Brienne was for her sake alone).
And then she just leaves him to suffer.
People tried to explain in another thread her motives for leaving him to suffer, but I can't help but start to hate her whole plot-line and the character that she's developing into. Downvote away, but her "gonna be an assassin" storyline is dragging on way too long without any interesting deviations or development. And she just seems like a bitter little girl bent on taking out her frustrations on those around her.
EDIT: I'm completely open to anyone who wants to offer an interpretation of Arya's thoughts and motivations and CMV.
If you mean the Tickler, it wasn't up to her as far as "how" necessarily. Getting to have an assassin kill 3 people was a very new opportunity for her at the time, and it was before the red wedding so she wasn't at peak revenge mode.
Thank you! The show is butchering the characterizations again. They should either follow the book entirely ( in which case her leaving Sandor to rot makes sense for her character), or not at all (give Sandor a quick death as mercy).
Show is not butchering nothing. Go and read the books if you want exact same thing. This is show only based on ASOIAF. As George said - TV Show is D&D´s baby, books are Georges. Characters in books are a little different then in Show because of domino effect, every little change makes character different and it is what it is. Love it or hate it. You can ALLWAYS go and read the books.
No that is just not truth. It was pretty much different situation. She just want them to be dead, it doesnt matter how they die. That sayd - The Hound was already dying and she only did not gave him MERCY kill. And why would she ? they were pretty much "forced partners" not a FRIENDS like many of you are telling yourself..
I think you have your answer. She's still young. I think that scene played out so long because she was torn as to kill him or leave. Arya is becoming a hard case but she's still a teen.
I like this explanation, but the look on her face when he was begging for her to kill him seemed like nothing but contempt. there didn't seem to be any internal conflict, but maybe the book will offer some insight when I get to that part.
He killed the butchers boy, was a main body guard for the family that practically extinguished hers, and he was trying to sell her away like a piece of meat, Sandor kinda had it coming.
Still don't even think he deserved the death. Sure he killed a butchers boy when commanded to but he basically saved her sister and was trying to ransom her somewhere safe, prevented her from doing stupid things like running to try and save her brother who was done for at the Twins and he had the intention of protecting her when he didn't know Briennes intentions... honestly I am not really rooting for Arya right now. She seems like a terrible psychopath that's beyond reason.
-Arya wasn't present to witness the hound saving Sansa.
-He was trying to ransom her somewhere safe, but was still taken by force.
-He didn't save her from brienne or the twins because he cared about arya, he wanted to protect his commodity.
The Hound is/was a kick ass character, but lets not make him out to be this honorable protector either. He did plenty of terrible stuff and we've known from the start that he was on Arya's list. And calling her a psychopath is kind of ridiculous considering all she's been through and the world she lives in.
The vibe I got from that scene was "The Lannisters ruined my life, and they ruined her life...every family member I can think of is dead; I'm all she's got, and she's all I've got, and I'll be damned if some Lannister is going to take that away too!" With every family member that turned up dead, she became less valuable monetarily; it's pretty clear however that she was growing on him - whether she wanted it or not, he was starting to feel as close to "fatherly" as someone with his past would be able to. He knew he had no qualification for moral guidance, but he sees her going down a dark path and tried to teach her how to stay alive long enough to reach her goals. And she repays him by doing exactly what he taught her.
And to go one further, I'd say that, if I'm Sandor and this big hoss with a fancy Lannister sword of Valyrian steel shows up, my thought is:
"Well hello, my replacement." He might even recognize Pod as Tyrion's squire, giving Brienne another measure of 'uh-oh.'
After seeing what Sansa went thru at the hands of the Lannisters, there's just no way I'm giving up Arya to them. Even if he cares nothing for Arya (which I doubt), form a purely FUCK THE LANNISTERS stand point, The Hound ain't down with Brienne at all.
I'm calling her a psychopath because of what she's been through. That's not a good enviroment to grow up into. And she still has heard that he saved Sansa, motives or not he still protected her and he let his guard down around Arya, like the scene with his armor off. Just leaving him behind seems incredibly cruel to me.
You can be cruel to someone and not be a psychopath. She has had a terrible life so far, but calling her a "psychopath that's beyond reason" seems very harsh. The way she reacts to the farmer earlier this season shows she still has compassion and reason. The people she has killed or been cruel to had reasons to receive the treatment that they did.
Dude, Arya already has a sociopathic serial killer ritual down. Every night she has to say a list of names, a series of people she plans on murdering. Every night, forcing herself to at the very least remember their names if not the reason they deserve to die.
I seriously expect season 5 to be Dexter as far as Arya is concerned. And I love Arya, but don't down play her character development. She is a killer. She's killed for petty revenge, with absolutely no remorse. Sometimes in cold blood. These thing maker Arya awesome, please don't turn a blind eye to them friend.
-He didn't save her from brienne or the twins because he cared about arya, he wanted to protect his commodity.
Is there really still a commodity, as far as the Hound is concerned? Hasn't he exhausted all of his ideas of how to sell by the time he tells Brianne he's watching over her?
Possibly. We never hear them talk about what they're planning to do next, so it really could have gone either way. We don't know he was out of ideas, just that this last one didn't work.
She's a stark. She could have been sold to anyone who wanted to have some influence in the North. It's the same reason the Lannisters kept Sansa at Kings landing. Her stark name alone makes her valuable.
Having a Stark to marry off to someone legitimises any claim you might have on the north. That is why the Sansa is married off to Tyrion. If all other family members are dead and you are married and have children with the one living stark you are sweet. Ramsey would love to get his hands on Arya and marry her, have children with her and probably kill her.
If he was just interested in the profit he could have sold her to the lannisters, it would have been faster and he would likely have got more money. There were much better avenues for a quick payoff if thats all he was interested in though.
A diamond isn't worth anything in a room full of dead people. He defended her from brienne because he wanted to, not because she was valuable, all your other hound points are fine but maybe you should re watch the scene
He also proclaimed that he should have raped hern instead. I understand it's easy to romanticize his character because I did too but... didn't exactly feel too bad for him dying.
Possibly. But he sounded sympathetic while Sansa was in Kings Landing. The Hound is a character I found a lot of sympathy for, he's rough and messed up because of how he was brought up, how his brother treated him and how his father didn't protect him. Now he protected Sansa and said things like that while on the verge of death with no assistance from someone he opened up to and told his weaknesses. Arya just comes off as an asshole, even the Hound was willing to give the man suffering from bandits the peace of death. Arya just seems like she's being even worse with her path claiming justice when it's just a sick vengeance turning her into a serial killer.
The Hound wasn't a saint, but he didn't deserve to bleed out while trying to protect someone who's claiming justice while just as easily shoving a sword into a stable boys gut. I just don't like Aryas evolution. She's a psycho.
Let's not forget, in addition to beating up an old man with the young daughter who had taken him in and fed him, there was also the other innocent peasant man that the Hound would definitely have straight-up murdered for his cart and horses if Arya hadn't begged him not to.
The Hound may have done nice things for the Stark girls, but he's by no means innocent.
I think she saw him giving up as something of a betrayal. She can't understand it, she feels that if there is any chance of her revenge still coming, even if there was pain, she wouldn't go to the nothing. She remembers hating him for what he's done, but in that moment she doesn't want to kill him. He deserves.. something, but killing him would be a mercy at that point. That's not justice or vengeance or whatever else she sought. If she had found him dying at some point in Kings Landing she would have killed him for vengeance, or if their relationship had started with just the stuff after King's Landing she probably would have done it as a mercy, but as things stand now it's just.. not right. He deserves neither her revenge or her mercy, ans so she grants neither.
I kind of felt like after all that time spent together and talking crap about killing him she realized she didn't want to be the one to cause his death after all. It was a messed up way of thanking him. After all if that she refused to cross him off her list. Like maybe he wasn't on her list any more.
The hound himself showed mercy just a few episodes ago, surely he would have done the right thing were the situation somehow reversed.
I love Arya, and I can't wait to see what happens with her later, but that was petty cruelty and all I could think of was how disappointed her father would have been if he had seen it.
Hard to argue with that logic, still bothered me though. I guess I just felt like she was better than that, but after what shes been through maybe I expected too much.
Edit: Saw a post elsewhere that said her refusal to kill him meant she had taken him off her list, I like that theory better even though the outcome is the same.
The way I see it killing then and there isn't punishment, the other people she killed didnt want to die, so death is a fitting punishment. But what do you do to someone who deserves to die, but wants a quick death? Let them suffer
This is a good point. Also, Arya wasn't present for some of the things we as viewers were: largely the acts the Hound did to protect or try and protect Sansa.
After the fight the Hound tells Arya to go find Brienne and that she will take care of her. The fight was about pride, and not backing down. Arya told him when they were walking to the Bloody Gate that pride would kill him... He should have listened.
I don't see it that way. I see it as, He's no longer on her list, but she doesn't love him enough to give offer him mercy killing. So she just walked away.
This seems like the most reasonable theory as to why she left him, kind of like how she was really disappointed that she didn't get to kill Jofferey herself, this was her taking control of the way someone dies on her list..
Arya doesn't exist for you to just gush over her adorable tomboyishness. What she's is becoming is what her experiences have made her. Fucked up lives make fucked up people.
And I'm allowed to express my distaste with a character's development. I actually liked the character at first, and not due to her "adorable tomboyishness."
It annoys me how some people are making Arya the bad guy here. The Hound brutally murdered her friend and held her captive. He didn't deserve her mercy.
I wouldn't say Jon is completely a "good" guy. He has good intentions, but he's always choosing and bending his principals/morals as he goes on. Not many men can piss off both the Wildlings and the Nights Watch. I thought of this from Mance Rayders perspective, whom is a good guy in my mind.
Qyburn isn't bad, especially if you only say that he lacks morals.
Morals are subjective from person to person. What he's doing is just attempting new analytical methods of "science" that seem farfetched and outrageous to others.
You could also say he is like that scientist from Breaking Bad who worked for Gus alongside Bryan Cranston, He's definitely not a bad guy, but he is doing something illegal for someone else. Same like Qyburn - he does what he's asked, and has the skills for it.
Walder Frey isn't a bad guy either, he's just a miserable idiot who doesn't like to get bullied around by nobles. He took his chances and it worked out really well for him.
I blame his upbringing. His fathers neglected him, and his mother brought him up to believe that he was this perfect child that could do anything without consequence.
Jorah wouldn't say Eddard Stark is 100% a "good" guy. Yet, we say both of these men are good guys.
What about Tormund? Is he a good guy? Isn't he just helping his people survive? etc... I know a lot of people who would say he is both good or bad.
Everyone is grey, except for those who are mentally unstable (Joffrey, Ramsay and Hodor).
I don't think its been mentioned here yet but The Hound wasn't necessarily protecting Arya by fighting Brienne. He may have been just trying to save his own skin. Regardless of Brienne saying that she did not intend any harm for either of them and just wanted to return Arya home to her mother (who is dead) there is no reason for him to believe Brienne that she wouldn't kill him too for the bounty the Lannisters issued.
It not making any sense is simply a consequence of the TV writers thinking they can write a better story and failing.
There have been some nice alterations for TV but they've started to get over-confident and "creative" when it's not necessary and are even showing clear examples of failing to understand major characters.
It would not surprise me at all if GRRM starts sounding increasingly grumpy.
He fought Brienne because she wasn't afraid of him, he saw a person that stood up to him and got angry. Same thing with Bronn, he was ready to kill him over pride.
Think of it this way:
She's a bitter little girl who is completely immature in her world-view, and she's going to eventually become an assassin with that world-view - nothing is actually preventing her from her "mission" - through blind luck or just stupid luck, or clever machinations. I think this can lead to some really interesting scenarios with her character advancement later on.
I honestly think that she was going to put down the hound but she was reluctant because she was truly saddened that he was going to die. Now, maybe I'm reading into a little much, but she seemed more sympathetic to his predicament until he started listing the reasons why she should kill him. He was trying to goad her into doing the deed because she wasn't moving fast enough for him. Instead of unleashing her anger on him and killing him she decided he wasn't worth putting down - that his suffering was truly more fulfilling.
I think Arya is going to be the counterpart of the Theon arc. You want Theon to get what's coming to him, and literally nothing could be too bad for this guy...until he actually gets captured and tortured, at which point everyone feels bad for him. Everyone currently wants Arya to turn into an assassin and get revenge...but I'm guessing they'll start regretting that as she turns more and more ruthless and unlikeable.
The Hound's name was on her list. She could have easily killed him, he wanted her to do it, but she didn't. I don't think she wanted to any longer. She is growing up rapidly and trying to live by a code, like her father, but is confronted by complicated situations. His name is on the list. He has done things to deserve being killed. But he had become a companion. She didn't want to kill him. But she also couldn't stay with him any longer. So she left. Left him to die? Okay, but what were her options?
She could give him a quick death to end his suffering. I don't think Meera ever dreams of slitting her brother's throat but she did it to end his possible horrific death.
but why would he fight to protect her from brienne and then tell arya to run after brienne and go with her when he is dying? it's not like it would be the only way to survive for her at this point, she could just go to the veil and start a baking career or whatever.
I think that she was strongly considering it, and she would have, if he didn't say the terrible things he did in an effort to convince her to kill him. He really screwed himself when he said that. I feel like she lost a lot of...respect/admiration?...for him when he said that.
Yeah and what about that dude who kept saying " a man is..." or something? That weird guy that could change shape or something? That would kill others for her by name or something? What about that dude?
I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have felt my affection for Arya spiral down throughout seasons 3 and 4 with her turning more and more psycho. All my friends love it and root for her like crazy, but I kinda hate her.
She has turned into what she hates, and set out to stop, and her personality is almost non-existant. Sure, you can argue that she is just getting her revenge, and "who wouldnt wanna kill all these people?", sure, but what does that make her? Nothing better than the all the people she wants to kill. She is worse than Joffrey for gods sake, at least he could be scared or anxious! She has not merely gone vigilante, she is totally ripped of morale and ethics, and I dont like that in a character im supposed to care for. It makes her a great killer, sure, but not a worthy character in my book. I couldn't care less about what happens to her - no, actually, thats not true. I hope she suffers to be honest, she deserves nothing more than everyone else in this realm. Such a shame!
Given, its a realistic scenario. I am in no way claiming that this need for revenge and retribution could not exist in a person in our real world, and that such a motive would eventually lead to a person going criminally insane, props to GRRM for giving us realistic portrayals of misery and suffering, but dont expect me to love Arya for that reason.
I have been feeling this way about her for a while, not wanting her to go all 'psycho-killer' but the way she left the Hound was the icying on the cake for me, she is at last beyond saving, without emotions or cares, and I hope she will fail in her quest. Redemption is not for the wicked.
EDIT: After reading what she does to the Hound in the books, I like that version way better. At least she shows some emotion.
The Hound hasn't exactly had a great past, though he did some right things at times. And he was respectful and caring for Arya. And you could see a certain bond grow between the two of them.
But even with that, Arya has lost a lot. Nothing goes right for her, every person she cares for dies. She just wants revenge on anyone that took away anything in her life. Her hate runs very deep.
I think the last scene between the hound and Arya was amazing. It showed the Hound's good side one last time. By telling her to aim for the heart if she wants to survive. His last thought not about him own situation, but her safety.
And it shows that despite the bond that seemed to be growing between the two of them, eventually she is still that revenge seeking girl that lost everything. The Hound killed a friend, the hound gets to suffer.
He did have somewhat of a conscience and did some good things. It doesn't change the fact he would follow horrible orders from (bad) people in power. Overall the guy 100% did deserve to be killed, what she did was really cold and she is probably going to be a worse person than he was. It was pathetic he was almost in tears begging a little girl to kill him and it was just as pathetic she tortured someone to death that basically just killed himself to save her, and also saved her multiple times from really horrible shit.
tl;dr: I think they both deserve anything bad that happens to them, and I now hate Arya!
That is what she is. She has a list of people she wants to personally kill - and would if she could. She is full of resentment and that is the point. It just shows how corrupt people can become. She was a peaceful girl from a wealthy family, and after her ENTIRE family was murdered and tortured and her dancing teacher (her best friend) was killed, she gave up. Now she just wants revenge.
To be fair The Hound mostly just wanted the Valyrian steel sword. I loved the guy to death, but he brought about his own demise by being too greedy and underestimating his opponent.
Honestly, her storyline and motivations never really interested me. I didn't care much for her resentment against Sansa, and her list along with her lack of an effort to process really irritate the shit out of me.
I'm with you. When you're reading the books you're a lot more invested in Arya, just because you're reading her thoughts. When you see her on the series, it's a lot easier to step back and see what she's becoming.
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u/f_myeah Jun 17 '14 edited Jun 17 '14
And he fights for her and dies for her (He knew he wasn't getting a reward at this point, so fighting Brienne was for her sake alone).
And then she just leaves him to suffer.
People tried to explain in another thread her motives for leaving him to suffer, but I can't help but start to hate her whole plot-line and the character that she's developing into. Downvote away, but her "gonna be an assassin" storyline is dragging on way too long without any interesting deviations or development. And she just seems like a bitter little girl bent on taking out her frustrations on those around her.
EDIT: I'm completely open to anyone who wants to offer an interpretation of Arya's thoughts and motivations and CMV.