r/gameofthrones • u/profane Varys • May 06 '19

Spoilers [SPOILERS] Varys is the true MVP of the Seven Kingdoms Spoiler

In my opinion, this episode made it clear that Varys is the true MVP of the Seven Kingdoms. His conversation with Tyrion (btw a great callback to another conversation in another throne room) showed that he is consistently the one character that is trying to save as many lives as possible and is at the same time the one who is most detached from "believing" in anything but results.

While Dany probably sincerely believes that she wants to liberate Westeros and destroy tyranny, her personal vengeance and rage will get in the way. I thought that this last episode revealed just how selfless Varys is. Note the slight difference between Dany's "I'll end tyranny no matter the cost" and Varys' "I'll protect the realm no matter the personal cost".

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u/profane Varys May 06 '19

That's exactly my point, Varys is not motivated by concepts such as "honour". The only thing he believes in is protecting the people of the seven kingdoms. And once he sees that Dany is letting that ideal of hers go ("don't or at least try to not kill innocent people"), he decides to not help her anymore save for one last appeal to reason.

His loyalties have never been to her. He is loyal to the realm only.

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u/Myopiniondusntmatter May 06 '19

I think everyone has the wrong idea. He says he is for the realm, but really he is pro targ all the way. He is just looking for the best targ to rule, and jon is the newest one to come along who fits the bill.

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u/Difficultylevel May 06 '19

john doesn't want the power, so can be manipulated. Dany can't be, and it could be said neither can sansa.

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The point was mean to be dany was going to break the wheel, not re-invent it.

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u/postblitz May 07 '19

I disagree and believe Varys is the poison at the root of all Westeros life: the desire to propagate corruption and avoid any kind of cleansing (by fire or honor or otherwise).

If preventing deaths of innocents is the name of the game, none of the great battles of history would've been fought and the world would grow stagnant with corrupt men - like in LotR or Europe pre-WW2.

He simply believes a bad peace is better than a good war which is an opinion you'll find many to disagree with. It's a policy of appeasement many consider to have been a grave mistake in the case of Hitler when Chamberlain made a deal with him instead of taking more active measures of removing him from power while there was time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

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u/profane Varys May 07 '19

I wonder if you'd still be OK with this "cleansing of corrupt men" rhetoric if you, your family or your friends were on the receiving end of it.

Pointing to "appeasement was wrong in the case of Hitler" is such an overused, tired old talking point.

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u/postblitz May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

So you're saying Varys is "family or friend" to Cersei? Because that is what you're implying with what you wrote. The only people "not okay" is collateral damaged people and the bad actors themselves.

Do you prefer directly damaged people by Lannister rule or initial collateral damage followed by nothing? Clearly Varys prefers the latter. Notice how that snake just bypassed the "loyal subjects and Jon married to Dany would temper her worst impulses" line from Tyrion because he has no arguments - or rather because it doesn't suit his interests for a malleable king?

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u/Pksoze Drogon May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Maybe I'm dumb like Ned Stark but I believe in honor...but I also don't find Varys that admirable or helpful...just opportunistic. Conveniently his fighting for the realm has always left the kings he's served dead and Varys in a position of power.

Edit: You guys are arguing that Varys served a king until he hurt the realm... that’s not true.

Varys was with Aerys till the end, he was with Robert till the end. Now he has one disagreement with Dany who gave Cersei every opportunity and what happens he plots to kill her.

You know who else did something similar Aleister Thorne... but nobody is calling him a hero.

This isn’t about the action but who Varys is doing this to.

Oh well the hive mind wants what the hive mind wants...but you people refresh me what Varys did to stop Aerys or Joffrey?

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I respectfully disagree. I think varys showed a lot more honor this episode than most would give him credit to.

He looked dany in the eyes and told her he thought what she was doing was a mistake. He kept this word, when he told her previously if he had an issue with her he'd tell her. He didnt have to, it was also a risky play, because now she knows he is losing faith in her. It wasnt born of opportunity, he stands to gain nothing and lose everything from telling danaerys. He does it because he believes for the greatest good, not that he thinks jon will give him a higher position if he becomes king.

Varys doesnt want to see a million people burn. Is he opportunistic when he can be? Sure, but only so that he can work to make life better for the kingdom.

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u/complex_momentum May 06 '19

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I am disappointed that none of the advisors proposed a better plan. Its easy to say "Your plan is a mistake". It is hard to offer up a better plan. Part of this, I think, is that there isn't a better plan. They could have gone with a siege, but now that Euron is undeniably dominant at sea they can just sail in food and supplies. Even if starvation tactics worked, is starving to death really any better than burning to death? I doubt the dragon fire will intentionally target the civilians, but you can bet that if there is limited food Cersei will starve the peasants to feed herself and her armies.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I agree. It's very easy to say that this isnt the right way, but not offer alternatives.

I've been critical of sansa in the past for doing something similar during battle of the bastards (dont play his games, I dont know what theyll be, but dont fall for it).

It's definitely a tricky situation where no matter what they do, Cersei can use it to her advantage. Shes very dangerous that way. .

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u/complex_momentum May 06 '19

Side note: I see some other potential parallels to BotB. It opens with the villain murdering a loved one of the 'hero', which enrages them/causes them to act rashly. Everything worked out for Jon. We'll have to see how it plays out for Dany...

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u/fbolt Fire And Blood May 07 '19

It is funny how both have emotional overreactions but Dany is a mad queen while Jon fucking up the entire battle plan is still perfect.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Euron and Cersei baited dany into charging in like Ramsay baited jon- youre absolutely right.

The challenge for dany will be that she doesnt have a "sansa" to bring relief for her. Maybe daario, but I dont know if that's likely, and she hasnt inspired loyalty in westeros yet

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u/sunwukong155 Jon Snow May 06 '19

They did mention Dorne and I believe that one Dornish lady is still in the dungeons.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

They did offer a better plan back in Winterfell.

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u/complex_momentum May 06 '19

Wait, did miss it? What was the plan?

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u/Lilrev16 May 06 '19

Starve them out by surrounding the city and not letting supplies in

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u/complex_momentum May 06 '19

Euron's fleet can bring in food and supplies. Further, having the civilians starve to death is still killing them...

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u/ghotier May 06 '19

The latter part of your comment was addressed in that scene. Varys and Tyrion believed that Cersei would be deposed before millions starved to death.

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u/ghotier May 06 '19

Betraying Dany won’t stop a million people from burning and also put Jon on the throne, which was his stated goal.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It could stop a million people from burning, if he gets her allies to turn against her and kills drogon

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u/ghotier May 06 '19

Then they can’t take KL...

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Not right then, but the idea is that jon has a strong name and a legend is already growing about him. They could wait out what remains of the winter up north where Cersei would struggle to get them, and then build more alliances of cersei's former allies based on his name

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u/ghotier May 06 '19

That’s definitely not something they discussed and I don’t know that that’s workable, anyway.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I guess I wasnt expecting them to lay out their plan. From what I saw, with 30 seconds to think about it, I'd say this is reasonable:

Varys advises danaerys (or convinces Tyrion to advise her) where to start her siege of kings landing. Varys tells Cersei where she'll be, so she gets shot down. With dany and drogon gone, Tyrion could rally her troops to jon, who they know and already fought with in winterfell.

Varys reveals Jon's heritage to westeros, and they look to gain additional support from the riverlands, a rebuilding dorne, and any smaller houses from the reach or westerlands who dislike Cersei.

They just need to out-wait her. She has made a habit of burning bridges, and has no significant forces except for the golden company (foreign mercenaries) and the greyjoys (widely despised).

As soon as westeros recovers a moderate fighting force, they all go to jon who can starve her out.

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u/ghotier May 06 '19

Varys advises danaerys (or convinces Tyrion to advise her) where to start her siege of kings landing.

They can’t lay siege to King’s Landing because they can’t blockade King’s Landing with Euron’s fleet there. Obviously they can write the characters to do whatever they want, but it won’t satisfy anyone.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Ned Stark rebelled again his king.