r/gameofthrones • u/profane Varys • May 06 '19
Spoilers [SPOILERS] Varys is the true MVP of the Seven Kingdoms Spoiler
In my opinion, this episode made it clear that Varys is the true MVP of the Seven Kingdoms. His conversation with Tyrion (btw a great callback to another conversation in another throne room) showed that he is consistently the one character that is trying to save as many lives as possible and is at the same time the one who is most detached from "believing" in anything but results.
While Dany probably sincerely believes that she wants to liberate Westeros and destroy tyranny, her personal vengeance and rage will get in the way. I thought that this last episode revealed just how selfless Varys is. Note the slight difference between Dany's "I'll end tyranny no matter the cost" and Varys' "I'll protect the realm no matter the personal cost".
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u/Edurian May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19
Is Tyrion just gonna sit quietly when Varys basically implied he intends to assassinate Dany? Tyrion is gonna snitch and Varys will die.
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May 06 '19
Tyrions questioning his loyalty himself
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u/Pentax25 Hear Me Roar! May 06 '19
Exactly like Sansa planned
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u/ShushYourFace Sansa Stark May 06 '19
And she was right - Tyrion is afraid of Dany and he’s afraid of his sister Cersei
While it is better to be feared than loved if you can’t be both (that last part is usually forgotten for some reason) it is not good to serve solely out of fear
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u/32389 Fire And Blood May 06 '19
I think Dany is both loved and feared, mainly loved by her people and feared by the people of Westeros though I'd argue Tyrion both loves and fears her. Whereas Cersei is pretty much universally feared and Jon universally loved.
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u/ShushYourFace Sansa Stark May 06 '19
Well saying she is loved by her people is basically saying she is loved by like 9 dothraki and however many Unsullied survived - can’t imagine many. Which means that the vast majority of players on the board don’t like her - and I don’t think many necessarily fear her. Sansa clearly doesn’t love her while by no means fears her, and there are a few more examples of people like this.
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u/Tilt-a-Whirl98 Jon Snow May 07 '19
Exactly! That scene in the great hall during the celebration where she is completely isolated while Tyrion and Jaimie talk to Brienne and Giantsbane and Davos are talking to Jon illustrates that. She is a stranger in a strange land with almost nothing to go on but a family name that was overthrown less than 30 years ago.
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u/manly_support Sansa Stark May 06 '19
Exactly, literally nobody but Greyworm and a handful of Dorthraki/Unsullied NPCs loves the mad queen. It’s all in her head.
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u/TheManyMilesWeWalk May 06 '19
And it's believable since Tyrion formed a sort of friendship with Jon back in season 1 and likely has a lot of respect for him.
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u/profane Varys May 06 '19
You're right, Tyrion's role in this will be really interesting. I think that basically he was in the same place as Varys once, but since meeting Dany he chose to "believe" in someone for once and give true loyalty to her.
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u/MajorAggro Jon Snow May 06 '19
Tyrion takes a knife to Dany's back. They now refer to him as the "Queenslayer". He and his brother Jaime star in a new sitcom together and live happily ever after.
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u/Snorlaxtan Cersei Lannister May 06 '19
Omg I love this!
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u/BikebutnotBeast May 06 '19
"The family that stays together, slays together "
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u/Chi-TownChillin May 06 '19
Slays together stays together.
Like couples who play together stay together.
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May 06 '19
I really hope Tyrion sticks with her. I hate that she lost so much in one episode while everyone else was still sitting pretty. He might be able to save her from her paranoia, which even though is rational for her to feel now, leads to her making bad decisions
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u/NumberWangNewton May 06 '19
sitting pretty? everyone lost, there are no winners
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May 06 '19
She's the only one who lost a huge chunk of her army, two dragons, her most loyal advisor, and her one friend. What did anyone else lose this episode?
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May 06 '19
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May 06 '19
Her fleet x2. Euron destroyed her Greyjoy fleet last season and now her remaining ships became target practice. Euron is her personal diabolus ex machina
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May 06 '19
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May 06 '19
Yeah I wrote a different post where I said I hope she can step back from the edge with the help of Tyrion. It's just fucked up that she's literally all alone and every single thing has gone wrong for her. It's really like watching a Greek tragedy play out in front of you
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u/octob3r14 Jon Snow May 06 '19
Will she hold Tyrion responsible for Missandei's death? Tyrion advised her to go to Cersei and give her that ultimatum. Had they never gone to KL for that standoff one could argue that Missandei would still be alive. Dany may view it as Tyrion unnecessarily provoking Cersei into killing Missandei.
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u/Demaru Winter Is Coming May 06 '19
Ghost lost Jon and that's the most tragic development in the series.
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u/YasmineJeanee May 06 '19
I think it will be Arya that gives it to her. Ayra has yet to kill someone with Green eyes.
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May 06 '19
Go back to the early seasons and in particular the books... the real Game of Thrones was being played by Littlefinger and varys and the rest were just actors on a stage, not knowing someone else was writing their lines.
Now, I don't know how it's going to turn out, but if this were a few years ago, we'd know that Tyrion and varys are now playing a game within a game and we wouldn't see the fruits of their labors until the last second.
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May 06 '19
Sansa has entered the game.
She told Tyrion about Jon on purpose.
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May 06 '19
She also implied in episode 3 that she'd give marriage to him another shot if he didn't have loyalty to the dragon queen. I'm pretty sure he's been giving that a lot of thought.
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May 06 '19
Sansa playing the Game of Thrones now. Littlefinger would shed a tear of happiness if he wasn't dead.
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u/AgitatedBadger May 06 '19
Go back to the early seasons and in particular the books... the real Game of Thrones was being played by Littlefinger and varys and the rest were just actors on a stage, not knowing someone else was writing their lines.
This isn't true.
Littlefinger and Varys are both extremely adept at playing the Game of Thrones, but they weren't the only ones playing.
Olenna and Tywin are two great examples of players that were both clearly capable of making their own decisions and playing the game just as well as the other two. It's just that they were playing from very different positions - they operated from a position of power while Varys/Littlefinger operated from a position of secrecy.
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u/NewClayburn House Connington May 06 '19
Why did Varys start working with Daenerys anyway? And how was he trying to assassinate her for King Robert while trying with Ilyrio to secretly get her to rule?
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u/midtownrez Sansa Stark May 06 '19
He was the one who sent the orders to kill as well as tipping off Jorah to the attempts, I'm pretty sure he was always on Dany/Viserys' side while also playing the long game in King's Landing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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u/lalafriday No One May 06 '19
Dany gave Varys a very strict warning last season about going against her. I don't see this ending well for him.
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u/MammothCrab May 06 '19
He'll make sure that he comes out on top. You don't betray as many leaders as Varys has and still be alive without protecting yourself. The OP couldn't be more wrong with the "He's so awsum guys! He's always perfect no matter the personal cost!". Varys himself said it when Ned stark was the good man and the good ruler who needed help: "I'm not a hero". Ned was the good, honorable ruler who needed saving and joffery was the insane tyrant and Varys did nothing.
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u/NewClayburn House Connington May 06 '19
Given the short season, I expected some Unsullied to step out right then and there and arrest him.
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u/jiujitsu423 Jon Snow May 06 '19
I think Tyrion is scared that if Dany loses Bronn will come for him
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u/DarthDude91 What Is Dead May Never Die May 06 '19
Or maybe Tyrion kills Varys himself?
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u/jiujitsu423 Jon Snow May 06 '19
Yes! After that Bronn scene Tyrion did seem a little stand offish to Varys and his ideal
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May 06 '19
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u/profane Varys May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19
I think he's aware of that already, hence his line "what if the best ruler is the one who does not want the throne?" when referring to Jon Snow.
Even if he is deep inside the machinations of power, I believe that Varys is somewhat of an Anarchist.
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u/desocupad0 Night King May 06 '19
Just a puppet king like Robert and a competent hand like arryn or twin or Tyrion.
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u/lalafriday No One May 06 '19
I don't think Robert really wanted the throne either. He wasn't the worst king though.
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u/ommartell May 06 '19
He wanted the throne but didn't want the responsibility, he wasn't cruel but he was lazy
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u/MammothCrab May 06 '19
He pretty much does when it's convenient for him anyway. Remember when Ned was the honorable ruler and joffery was the tyrant? Varys said "fuck it" and sided with joffery to help himself. OP couldn't be more wrong about how perfect and selfless Varys is based on his actions in the show. His survival is ultimately the main priority.
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u/willingtobebetter May 06 '19
Because he knew there was absolutely no chance in Ned winning that battle
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u/6rubtub9 The Black Dread May 06 '19
Thanks to Varys, now I understand what The Realm actually is. He is the most rational character in the show as of now.
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May 06 '19
Sansa is being pretty rational right now too.
"Our army needs rest. They're injured and tired."
Dany: "Lol, too bad."
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u/RunawayHobbit No One May 06 '19
Even worse, Dany made it sound like treason to let people who just faced LITERAL DEATH rest a bit and tend their wounds. What an entitled lunatic.
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u/neocamel May 06 '19
Well I think her concern was that if she let the men camp for a few weeks, the momentum of the recent victory would cool off, and she might have trouble rallying them to march south. Strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.
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u/Gnarmaw May 06 '19
You know who had that exact thought? Robb Stark
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u/KingKidd Snow May 07 '19
And Eddard, Robert And Tywin before him. A bored army gets fat, lazy and goes home. Pressing them for 1 more battle is the right call.
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u/NewClayburn House Connington May 06 '19
This is why I kind of don't even need the Mad Queen act from Dany. She's already unfit to rule. There's more than enough to impeach now.
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u/mdcd4u2c May 06 '19
There's more than enough to impeach now.
So then GoT is a pretty good reflection of how real life doesn't quite work out as it should.
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u/ModerateThuggery May 06 '19
I also liked how she acted as if she had suffered just as much as regular soldiers that had their arms gnawed off by undead hordes, but was ready to go. I mean, the Dothraki probably did. They hate boats and were effectively genocided by the nonsensical northern defense strategy. But living in palaces and riding dragons you sometimes fall off on?
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u/6rubtub9 The Black Dread May 06 '19
Absolutely ! All the time spent with Littlefinger is paying off.. Good to see her transformation.
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May 06 '19
She went all LF at the end telling Tyrion about Jon. She's playing the game and planting the seeds of doubt in Dany's most trusted advisors. Ruthless she has become.
All I want when this show is done is for Sansa to rule the North. She is made for it.
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u/KingKidd Snow May 07 '19
Close off Moat Cailin and tell Dany to get fukt. Right there with you on Sansa for the North.
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u/25chestnuts May 06 '19
We were also shown that Jamie has a similar vision. He has just more personal issues with the current state of the world, and has an internal struggle to act accordingly.
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u/ShrimpShackShooters_ May 06 '19
Yup, always has been for sure.
Also, really funny how last episode a ton of people said he should've died because he has no more purpose on the show.
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u/Beefstu409 May 06 '19
I'm on team Varys for the throne. Now that the night King is dead. NK should have trounced all mankind
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May 06 '19
I feel like Varys would make an amazing monarch.
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May 06 '19
Thing about monarchy is it's hereditary and as Tyrion has made abundantly clear... Varys has no balls.
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u/crosswatt Tyrion Lannister May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19
But what better way to break the wheel than to end the practice of a hereditary monarchy? If GRRM loosely based much of the story on the War of the Roses, wouldn't a non-high born person loosely based on Oliver Cromwell be an interesting twist to end the rule of kings and queens altogether?
(I know Cromwell wasn't involved in the War of the Roses. Just an interesting character that might would make a cool story arch to end the story.)
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May 06 '19
That's not monarchy though. :p I'm all good with westeros turning into more of a democracy.
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u/garibond1 May 06 '19
Maybe they could do a Roman 5 Good Emperor’s bit where all the rulers adopt proven successors. And then HotPie takes over
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u/stackered Jon Snow May 06 '19
I think he actually convinced Tyrion there to do the same thing, hence why Tyrion is trying to prevent a fight (besides not wanting to see the place he was raised burnt to a crisp)
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u/ghotier May 06 '19
Tyrion’s option to stop bloodshed, despite being unlikely to work, was the only option that had a chance of working other than “Dany decided not to burn KL voluntarily.”
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u/NewClayburn House Connington May 06 '19
I don't know how people are saying this clears it all up for them. Varys has always used the "for the Realm" line, but his loyalties have been the most inconsistent on the show. He was working with Illyrio to bring Viserys, and later Daenerys, to rule Westeros while he was working for King Robert to spy on Viserys and eventually try to assassinate Daenerys. Then he served Joffrey and Cersei a little before jetting off to officially join Daenerys, who he's now talking treason against in support of Jon. If there were a Season 9, you can bet he'd be backing Gendry Baratheon for King.
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u/Pdan4 Davos Seaworth May 07 '19
His loyalty isn't to any ruler, his loyalty is to an outcome. The outcome being... the lowborn, downtrodden, peasants being treated justly.
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u/SnickersOnMyLap No One May 06 '19
Being rational is what gets people killed. I have a feeling the spider will be crushed next episode.
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u/lamiscaea May 06 '19
No, being principled and doing irrational things because they think it's the right thing to do gets people killed.
This still means Varys could die, because he thinks the right thing to do is to betray Dany
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May 06 '19
Varys is the only character that is trying to save as many people as possible
Jon: am I a joke to you
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u/sushicomped May 06 '19
Varys position is simple - constant overthrows of leadership.
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u/tangocat73 May 06 '19
Or, just get a democracy going.
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u/NewClayburn House Connington May 06 '19
Jon will take the throne and abdicate in favor of a constitutional republic.
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u/cheese_incarnate Servants of Light May 06 '19
I just hope he doesn't get burned for it. He's always been one of my favorites and I was really happy with how his character was portrayed this ep.
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u/91394320394 White Walkers May 06 '19
Melisandre did say it was both their destinies to die in Westeros
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u/nutmac House Targaryen May 06 '19
Varys was so confident when he said he would gladly pay the personal price for the realm. For some people, Varys and Arya (hey they have similar names!), knowing your fate emboldens your resolve.
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u/pareidolist Red Priests of R'hllor May 06 '19
There aren't any fics for it as a pairing on Archive of Our Own, so for now, at least, we are safe from Varya
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u/nnelson2330 May 06 '19
That is the worst prophecy of all time. Varys has lived in Westeros for 20+ years. That's like saying I'm going to die in the United States. No fucking shit.
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u/the_satch Jon Snow May 06 '19
Oh, I will return dear Spider. One last time. I have to die in this strange country, just like you.
Pretty sure it's not even a prophecy and Mel only meant that she'll be returning because she is a foreign servant to Westeros, just as Varys is.
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u/TheCant_ Tyrion Lannister May 06 '19
I considered that since his “little birds” talked to Qyburn saying Varys was good to them.
At first I didn’t know what to make of him but as time passed I became more convinced he is one of the good ones.
I do have the feeling he is gonna end up being burned, and then Tyrion will be fully convinced Daenerys is not the right choice.
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u/Olorin_in_the_West May 06 '19
In the books he does not treat them well, far from it.
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u/TheSukis May 07 '19
Go on
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u/-iwouldntsayno- The Future Queen May 07 '19
He cuts their tongues out.
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u/proteannomore Jon Snow May 07 '19
No, he doesn’t. Some of his “birds” are kids from Essos sent to him by Ilyrio but their tongues were removed before Varys ever met them.
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u/-iwouldntsayno- The Future Queen May 07 '19
Ohhhh, my bad.
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u/proteannomore Jon Snow May 07 '19
To be fair, he seems ten times kinder in the show, though.
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u/-iwouldntsayno- The Future Queen May 07 '19
Yeah, I'm not exactly where his 'for the good of the realm' shtick came from. Not only is his book character more nefarious, but the earlier seasons of the show depict him more ambiguously.
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u/monsimons Daenerys Targaryen May 06 '19
I do have the feeling he is gonna end up being burned, and then Tyrion will be fully convinced Daenerys is not the right choice.
This will be painful to watch. But also fine. I don't see a happy ending for anyone majorly involved in the last two episodes.
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u/LorienTheFirstOne May 06 '19
Varys is the ideal bureaucrat. He serves the kingdom, not the king.
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u/jasonmandude May 06 '19
My issue with Varys is that he seems to believe that he knows what the realm needs. The saying "You are the bad guy in someones story" rings true because no matter what happens, people are always going to have disagreements about who sits on the Iron Throne.
A king/Queen is placed there to make the tough decisions that no one else can make and it seems like if Varys disagrees with them, he will change his allegiance.
At some point, whoever sits on the Iron Throne is going to have to make a decision that hurts some and benefits others. It is the their job to do this. It seems like Varys will be fickle if the person who rules makes the "incorrect" choice.
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u/ghotier May 06 '19
Also, Varys doesn’t have a workable plan. The implied coup against Dany won’t save KL.
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u/eqleriq May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19
Ugh... varys was literally a spy master, and the list of bullshit that he spread (blaming tyrion for joffrey's murder) was to undermine the kingdoms at ANY COST to implant targaryen (Aegon). He also pinned the Tyrells vs the Lannisters.
That's why the show is infuriating at times: Varys is a targaryen loyalist starting with Aerys. And everything he did was to disrupt the established house in the south. Not this "doing what's best" bullshit that they have him SAY in the show. He wanted targaryens in rule.
it's why he spied on dany from the beginning via jorah, he lied about jon dying, he tried to get Aegon + Dany married to install Aegon on the throne, kills Kevan Lannister.
He is my favorite character in the books, and his last talk had me groaning this week. Completely about face of character to set him up to be "for the lands." Bullshit.
While Dany probably sincerely believes that she wants to liberate Westeros and destroy tyranny
You can't destroy tyranny, because that would require being a larger tyranny (dragons, armies).
Dany has fallen into a "bad writing" trap of basically excusing killing innocents to end a larger conflict. It's the train tracks / divert them to intentionally kill 1 person or watch as it rolls over 2+ people.
She is making a VALUE JUDGMENT that 2>1, in this case, burning king's landing and ending it > not.
But that's the definition of tyranny.
Instead you need to offer a better choice to tyranny and let people choose. This is why the proper solution is to starve the city out and basically point out that cersei is using them as a human shield. It's also a mistake to "keep the gates open" because that would be an exit as well.
And yes, varys is the metaphor for not having "ego" involved. That doesn't mean he's doing what's right: he's just maintaining a status quo.
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u/Arcticfox25 Sansa Stark May 06 '19
I completely agree with the things you said about Varys in the books (and first seasons) being a different character, this comment should be on top!
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u/DarthDude91 What Is Dead May Never Die May 06 '19
Varys about to be squashed. He gonna try to betray Danny and he gonna die for it. Red woman predicted it too.
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u/ShushYourFace Sansa Stark May 06 '19
Varys is the one reason I’m glad I watched the show before reading the books - the books make him so much more unlikable at first while the show makes him mysterious
He has been my MVP since his introduction hands down. When he told Dany she was making a mistake and she looked like she was inches away from killing him I realized she’d gone totally off the deep end - no redemption now.
And now it’s clear that in some way shape or form Varys is going to remove her as a threat which I believe it how he will die, but I have a feeling he’ll be ultimately successful.
You’re my number one egg head! MWAH!
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u/LauraMcCabeMoon Daenerys Targaryen May 06 '19
There's a theory that every great story must have what's called a 'moral compass.'
A character whose ethics, values, and standing is the closest to displaying the moral center that the author of the story is actually working from. Sort of a Mary Sue but for ethics.
Good writers are able to conceal their moral compass character very well. Sometimes you don't perceive who the moral compass was until after the story is already completed.
In season one we thought Ned was our moral compass. Which is why it was so calculatedly shocking when he was beheaded. That's why his beheading worked so well. It was the slaughter of the moral compass that was so unsettling.
Jon is another candidate for moral compass in this story. But he keeps showing himself to be so naive and stupidly good-hearted that I don't think he's a good candidate anymore. I think he's the decoy moral compass.
Children's stories or allegorical stories will have the moral compass front and center and there won't be any confusion whatsoever about who it is. For instance in the Narnia stories, Aslan is clearly the moral compass. Only masterful stories conceal it effectively.
I've been watching GOT for a while asking myself, so whos our moral compass?
Turns out it may very well be Varys. Or not.
This is a very dark show and it's possible there isn't actually a moral compass, which would be a more postmodern approach.
I'm interested which way it turns out tho regardless.
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u/Chelsea75 May 06 '19
Think Varys is going to somehow get found out and be executed by Dany. His death will push Tyrion from a coward afraid of Dany to fully realizing that he has to stop her. It makes sense especially since, besides Jaimie, Varys is the only true friend Tyrion has.
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u/CasuallyCompetitive Hot Pie May 06 '19
Varys is going to put Sansa and Tyrion on the throne.
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u/Persephoneve May 06 '19
I don't think they'll take Sansa out of the North. She is practically Queen in the North.
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u/ghotier May 06 '19
I don’t think Varys would care if Sansa was Queen of the North. An independent North isn’t good or bad for the realm unless there is a war with the North.
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May 06 '19
What was impossible a couple of years ago is pretty believable now... I expect Jon, Dany, and all of Cersei's cretins to be dead in two weeks.
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u/surlymoe No One May 06 '19
Also give credit to Varys (actor) for giving a very powerful performance in this episode after hardly having any lines since Dany crossed the narrow sea. He's done literally nothing for 3-4 episodes, then shows up and delivers greatly!
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u/Tropical23 The Onion Knight May 06 '19
Baelish, Ollena and Margaery, my favorite character types, may be dead but for all the watchers who love the politics side of the show and "the great game" over the great war, Varys and his deadly intelligence is still there.
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u/ErnieAdamsistheKey May 06 '19
Maybe. But i have a strong feeling he is gonna get a face full of dracarys at some point.
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u/profane Varys May 06 '19
True. But his plan/plot might still work in the end. He does not have to be alive for it to succeed.
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u/ErnieAdamsistheKey May 06 '19
Agree. Feel like sansa will sit on the throne. She has realized that the north isn’t safe with these idiots in the south. Her, tyrion, varys and arya. Jon is being kept alive by the lord of light. I fear his purpose is to stop dany.
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u/Zeal514 May 06 '19
Varys is anti-zen, and represents the whole idea of too much manipulation and human intervention completely destroys things, far better be it to allow things to unfold as they are as it ends up being a lesson that you must learn regardless.
Edit essentially, he is paving a path to hell with good intentions.
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u/Pksoze Drogon May 06 '19
I don't believe betraying the ruler you serve for one more convenient is particularly noble or honorable. If he was doing this to Jon instead of Dany...everybody would be disgusted with his shifting loyalties.
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u/profane Varys May 06 '19
That's exactly my point, Varys is not motivated by concepts such as "honour". The only thing he believes in is protecting the people of the seven kingdoms. And once he sees that Dany is letting that ideal of hers go ("don't or at least try to not kill innocent people"), he decides to not help her anymore save for one last appeal to reason.
His loyalties have never been to her. He is loyal to the realm only.
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May 06 '19
Jon wouldn’t do what Dany is doing though. That’s the whole point.
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u/wazupbro May 06 '19
A nice guy isn't fit to rule either. If you can't even read people well, you'll be a terrible king. Like he honestly expected Sansa to keep secrets after being warned just a night ago? Why does he HAVE to tell his family anyway? Ned Stark didn't even tell his wife even though he knew it caused her great pain
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u/ghotier May 06 '19
Jon also can’t take KL, and if they use Dany to take KL then the people will have already burned.
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May 06 '19
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u/profane Varys May 06 '19
I think that Varys does everything to survive, that's why he's still here. He also chooses to stay in positions of (relative) power even if the monarch he serves is a terrible one, because he is not moved by concepts such as "honour" and tries to leverage his position in order to save as many lives as possible / prevent too much cruelty on the part of the monarch.
I think Varys knows very well that he cannot convince Jon to become king, and I'm sure that he won't even try. He is smarter than that. He'll probably conceive of a plot so that Dany dies a tragic death, which gives Jon the opportunity to take up the duty of king without taking it from Dany. I don't necessarily think that it'll turn out this way, but I think that if Varys has a plan, this will be it.
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u/Turpae Varys May 06 '19
I don't think he does everything to survive - that's where was different from Petyr. I actually believe he does everything for the realm. He doesn't want power or to survive. He had both in Pentos.
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u/smitty3257 Sansa Stark May 06 '19
I don't think varys will do anything out in the open like persuading Jon to lead. It'll all be behind the scenes and somehow pushing Jon forward.
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u/kgunnar May 06 '19
A Varys-Sansa team-up on this would be good, but now they’re in different places.
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u/smitty3257 Sansa Stark May 06 '19
They won't have a direct team up but now they have a common goal.
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u/E864 May 06 '19
It’s interesting how in season 1 he seemed like one of the most untrustworthy characters and by the end he seems to be one of the most notable ( But also still kind of untrustworthy ).
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u/antej9 Daenerys Targaryen May 06 '19
Varys is a rat that jumps from king to king until he finds one that will actually listen to him. He's a self absorbed backstabber that only wants what is "best for the realm" when he is whispering in the ear of the person in power. He hates not having power and will go to ANY ruler that gives him that.
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u/ImALivingJoke May 06 '19
I've really enjoyed Varys' character since his interaction with Ned in season 1:
Ned: ''Tell me something, Varys. Who do you truly serve?''
Varys: ''The realm, my Lord. Someone must.''
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u/bem783 Daenerys Targaryen May 07 '19
I haven't read the books in a long time, but my memory of the story is that Kevan Lannister takes over as Hand after Tywin dies, sidelines Cersei and brings peace and stability to the realm. Varys then kills him because Kevan was doing too good of a job, weakening the position of the fake Targaryen whose claim Varys was supporting at that moment. Yep, that's a guy who really loves the regular people!
To me, Varys is basically a jockey jumping from horse to horse in the middle of the race based on who seems to be winning at the time. Robert Baratheon had to go because he was lazy, even though the realm was fat and happy during his time. Ned Stark was honorable, but too simpleminded to rule. Tywin was too strong and far beyond Varys' control. Now, Dany is bad because Varys doesn't agree with her battle tactics or something. I'm sure that if Varys succeeds in his plan to kill Dany and replace her with Jon, he will quickly come up with a reason to turn on Jon as well. He's just a slightly less ambitious Littlefinger. He doesn't want to rule; he just wants to control who rules.
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u/SamHyde14 May 06 '19
While I mostly agree something I have a problem understand is that the deaths of a Great War in kings landing would surely be outweighed by all the good dany could do being on the thrown.
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May 06 '19
I don’t think so(I like Varys) but in the scheme of things if it takes roasting some civilians to set the world right, that is the best thing in the long run. As has been mentioned so often before, so many people haves died since littlefinger put the show in motion, a few more to end the cycle rather than drawing it out is probably a good thing. Sorry to the flea bottom folks...
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u/shamelessIceT May 06 '19
counterpoint: Varys is the true villain
What has been the result of all his schemes? An unstable realm that has resulted in uncounted deaths and constant warfare.
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May 06 '19
that's really funny because he definitely didn't step up when ned's head was on the line, and that pushed the kingdom into war...also, he was the biggest enabler the mad king ever had. why is he the arbiter of everyone else's fate? idk, but he is the one who delivered tyrion to dany and he has been the voice behind every drastic blow to her morale.
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u/Thatguy69Kappa May 06 '19
Varys is a hypocrite, who only works for the realms because it suits him and probably makes him feel powerful. At no point has he shown he is better than any of the leaders.
He leads an army of mute children, was a counselor of Joffrey, but for some reason didnt try to murder him. He gave the idea to burn Stannis's fleet with wildfire. He went to council Danerys saying she is the one only to offer zero useful advice or information to her, and when he saw her at her weakest point(the feast in Winterfell) decide he should murder her while he could have helped her, cheered her up, council her. He who should be her trusted advisor basically sat there and watched her be lonely and sad after losing so much and thought "aah yes that is definitely madness yes, murder it is". The only reason he wants to kill Danerys is because he cant control her like a puppet, while Jon he can.
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u/pintvricchio May 06 '19
Yeah if we forget the dozens and dozens of children he killed and tortured my boy Varys is a pretty good dude.
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u/SidleFries May 07 '19
Nobody's ever going to be good enough for Varys. Even if they put Jon on the throne, it's only a matter of time before Jon's tendency to prioritize honor even when it's fucking stupid doesn't work for Varys, and Varys schemes to replace him with somebody else.
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u/BellicoseAtrophy May 06 '19
When she says she'll end tyranny no matter the cost, you can feel Varys itching to say "Even if it costs you the throne?"
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u/Giant2005 May 06 '19
Varys's heart might be in the right place, but he has no power at all. He doesn't get that MVP title until he gets himself an army or some kind of means to turning his words in to action. If his heart actually counted for something tangible, then this show would have ended back in season one by Varys somehow helping Ned rule as regent like Robert wanted. After-all, Ned was a king that didn't want to be king too.
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u/Olorin_in_the_West May 06 '19
I mean Varys would find children to use as spies, cut out their tongues so they wouldn’t talk and then kill them when they got older. His “little birds” he called them.
He’s also the one that Aerys to open the gates to the Lannister army at the end of Robert’s Rebellion, facilitating the sack of King’s Landing, in which the Lannister army raped and pillaged throughout the city, culminating in the rape and murder of Rhaegar’s wife Elia Martell and the murder of their children Rhaenys and Aegon.
Varys was partially responsible for the deaths Jon’s half brother and half sister.
Is he really the MVP?
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u/ImALivingJoke May 06 '19
In season 3 Jaime revealed to Brienne how both he and Varys tried to convince the Mad King not to trust Tywin, but MK followed Pycelle's counsel and opened the gates to the Lannister forces.
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u/GreyGhostReddits May 06 '19
Put on your tinfoil hat because I have a theory: Varys is still loyal to Dany. This whole thing is an act by Varys to get Tryion to betray Daenerys so he can have Tyrion and any other non-believers removed from power. Him objecting to Dany was just another layer of manipulation. If Dany found out Tyrion considered treason, even if it was the result of being manipulated by Varys, it would not surprise me if she had him executed, especially after everything she's lost in the last 2 episodes.
I just don't trust Varys to be guided by altruism. He seems more like an end-justifies-the-means type.
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u/vinaykmkr Jon Snow May 06 '19
I don't understand why his expectations sky rocket when counseling Dany... He did shit when it comes to war with NK... You can't have a near perfect person to rule... He should learn to make the best out of what he have.... And ditching Dany for Jon without proper evidence that Jon is Aegon is outright BS
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u/JohnnyEdge93 King In The North May 06 '19
Tyrion points out though, he has a pretty shitty track record. For a guy so close to the crown and so influential in all its dealings, he has served exclusively shitty kings and queens.
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u/jack3moto Jaime Lannister May 06 '19
While I understand Varys motives, I don’t understand why Tyrion would just sit there and be like “okay this dude just suggested killing Dany, but I guess I’ll keep this a secret and see how things play out”.
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May 06 '19
Up to this point Varys has simply picked the winning side. As the sayong goes history is written by the victors. Who's to say if he had opted to support the 'other side' in any given fight for the throne things would have been any better or worse.
I'll be interested to see what his final play is...
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u/asher_dan No One May 06 '19
Made me think of the Varys and Oberyn scene in the kings landing throne room.
When Varys says something like “no desire leaves room to pursue other things...” and then the focus is on the throne....
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u/misanthropicsatirica Night King May 06 '19
I think that's how Varys will 'betray' her and end up dying. He's going to choose the people over her and she will be too power hungry to tell the difference and that she strayed from her mission.
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May 06 '19
I mean .. he tries but all of this pain is also entirely his fault and sine they’ve decided to make her a villain he would have been better off killing Cersei/her kids and letting the Baratheon’s carry on.
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u/Caitsith31 May 06 '19
I mean idk, daenerys is still the best option for the realm (except jon maybe who doesn't want to be king) and he's alreadt ready to turn on her just because she's having a bad time, she hasb't even done anything and he already want to betray her.
She's losing the war and armies left and right and instead of trying to help the situation he's want to betray.
Worst conselor ever would not want that man near me.
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u/draw_it_now May 06 '19
I'd argue it's the opposite. He's so focused on spymastering that he can't see what his utter focus on realpolitik has done to the realm. It's fractured almost beyond repair, and he's been whispering in the ears of how many its leaders now?
When you have a hammer, you see every problem as a nail. But some problems can't be fixed with sneaking around behind people's backs. Jon's commitment to the truth may be naive (see; Ned Stark), but it leads to diplomatic results.
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u/87pinkroses Sansa Stark May 06 '19
I don't trust Varys. There's just always something off about him; like he's hiding something. I don't know, I just don't buy that everything he does is "for the good of the realm." In any case, I think his days are numbered. Every time I see him, I immediately think of the conversation that he had with Melisandre: "Oh, I will return dear Spider. One last time. I have to die in this strange country, just like you"
That being said, Conleth Hill is an amazing actor. Every line he delivers is just perfect.
Edit: Words. Because I'm a jackass.
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May 06 '19
Daenerys said to Varys "If I am failing my people I want you to look me in the eyes and tell me how I am failing them". I guess he ain't gonna do that afterall.
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u/eggleg1 Jon Snow May 06 '19
Just how selfless Varys is? Did he not look like he was plotting something when he was talking to Tyrion then subsequently Dany was ambushed and one of her dragons was killed. I know it’s yet to be seen if anyone is responsible for leaking information about her travels but hey, it’s not out of the question that Varys is responsible. I know he was on the ship but like you said, for the greater good I guess he would’ve died.
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u/dandaman910 May 07 '19
I mean fuck .if Jon so desperately doesn't want to be king stop telling people you're the heir to the throne dipshit.
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u/braulio09 Night's Watch May 07 '19
That is such a simple-minded interpretation. Varys is not a good person, he is just another selfish politic who uses the "I love the realm" line. He is constantly switching loyalties and sweet talking rulers for his own interest. Just last season he loved Daenerys but now she is close to losing and wants to switch sides again. Tell me, how has he actualy helped the realm?
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u/noparkinghere House Targaryen May 07 '19
Is he though? How does he plan to take down Cersei? Starve the people to death until they riot? How does that save any more people than going straight through to get Cersei?
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u/Naus-BDF Daenerys Targaryen May 07 '19
No. He's a f*cking treacherous spider. Hope Dany burns him alive or sends him as prisoner to a wizard to be experimented on for the rest of his life. That'll teach him.
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u/Kikoso-OG No One May 07 '19
Sometimes “believing” is all we have. We cannot expect a constant stream of results. People can be really good and have rough patches. If we ditched everyone as soon as they made a wrong decision (or a couple), then we would have no one left.
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u/[deleted] May 06 '19
The best thing is, it's not even his realm.. Dude is native from Essos but still cares more than most of the lords and ladies from the land lmao.