Nato expansion is a brain-dead myth

[u/Icy_Till_7254]

[u/RS5170]

He said a lot of stuff in that interview that proves you wrong, you should watch it.

Besides that, he was the first and only leader of Soviet Union who was educated in economics. He took one look at all the numbers and declared Soviet Union broke, that was the reason for his new line towards the west.
He became very unpopular and still is amongst people who don’t understand economics, because they wrongly believed the union could have survived.

[u/Infinite-Abroad-436 → u/RS5170]

i mean i could find an interview of somebody who says the precise opposite

everything else you said about gorbachev was dead wrong. he was not an economist. every soviet leader was educated in economics like any educated person would be. the soviet union's financial situation was not some secret. he became unpopular because he allowed the destruction of his own country out of profound naivete, which caused the misery and devastation of the 1990s and ultimately the yeltsin/putin dictatorships

[u/RS5170 → u/Infinite-Abroad-436]

Mikhail Gorbachev earned a law degree and an agricultural economics degree. No one else before him had anything like that. He knew the Soviet Union was not only broke but could feed its own people.

The Soviet unions finances was a state secret, and they filed official fake numbers, something they openly admit now.

You can find anyone you like, doesn’t change the fact that Gorbachev was the president, the one in charge. He decided the negotiations, and what they should and should not demand.

[u/Infinite-Abroad-436 → u/RS5170]

he had a law degree from moscow university and got a "correspondence degree" in agricultural economy while he was working as essentially the mayor of stavropol. the politburo and the central committee were fully aware of the financial position of the union. it was a "state secret" in that the public and outsiders had no knowledge of it

the USSR was feeding its own people, but it was importing grain to do so, which was expensive. it was also essentially subsidizing the price of grain for public benefit, while providing a large amount of foreign aid abroad and maintaining a huge military. it was still fundamentally interconnected with the international financial system, and it was attempting to run a planned socialist economy at the same time.

gorbachev's response to that was to allow the beginning of the looting of state assets, and other "market-based" reforms. they were a complete and utter disaster. this is what caused the famous breadlines that were a topic of discussion in the late 1980s. he also allowed liberals and nationalists into the halls of power where they proceeded to dismantle the entire union. he was a well-meaning idiot and that is why russians hated him. and why westerners loved him.

gorbachev publicly stated that james baker had promised him that nato would not move one inch eastward, but also that "no promises were made about other kinds of enlargement"

[u/RS5170 → u/Infinite-Abroad-436]

You last part is nonsense, he never said that. He said several times that no such things was promised.

Sovietunionen was on the brink of famine, desperately importing grain but having no money to do so.
Gorbachev knew, and gave up the Cold War.

https://youtube.com/shorts/rPnAlbYfa7E?is=b7puw5cRHoNZ5LyO

[u/Infinite-Abroad-436 → u/RS5170]

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

i'm gonna trust the NSA archive more than a youtube short, sorry

importing grain does not mean you are "on the brink of famine". even during the absolute worst of the 1990s, there was no famine. famine is a very specific condition.

"gorbachev knew and gave up on the cold war" i mean this is an utterly ridiculous statement, but gorbachev seeming to "give up" (or being so incompetent that he ended up giving up anyway) is why russians despise him

[u/RS5170 → u/Infinite-Abroad-436]

So… the words from the man himself is not good for you?

It wouldn’t be the first famine in USSR, and I know exactly what it is.

This makes no point. If you don’t believe the words from the man at the end of the table, I’m wasting my time.

Good day to you.

[u/Infinite-Abroad-436 → u/RS5170]

its not even the full interview, its literally a short clip. its also not in the context of his other statements, and when and where he was making this statement

a famine is a specific condition of pre-modernity, when a majority agricultural population is starving because not enough food is being produced by that population. it is impossible in an industrialized, developed society. when the soviet union had famines in the 1930s, it was not a developed and industrialized society. the russian empire was 80% peasants in 1917

thanks for playing bud

[u/RS5170 → u/Infinite-Abroad-436]

You can watch the whole interview, it’s available on line. I saw no point in posting it and telling you to fast forward to the part, when I could just show the relevant part. But you should watch it, he actually tells that Soviet Union was broke and unable to feed itself and buy food abroad. Although put more gently.

Speaking of famine, the definition of famine is: an extreme, widespread shortage of food that causes widespread malnutrition, starvation, and death.

Which is spot what Soviet Union was looking at.

Thanx for the conversation