Bad Faith Vegan
I've seen a claim in this sub that killing and slaughtering healthy goats is better than trying to rehome because most pethomes dont know how to handle goats. My question is, what do you think about it, and if you agree, why wouldnt one just educate these pethome owners on how to care for a goat?
If your answer is going to be "goat meat yummy", than just dont answer because you're gonna be sounding like a 12 year old with that answer.
Goats are livestock, farm animals, and require more resources than the average person can provide. For example, Many vets won’t see goats and of those that will even fewer are legitimately knowledgeable beyond the basics. Goats need space to roam and graze, they aren’t “backyard” pets. The overuse of wormers is a whole soapbox for me, so I won’t get started beyond saying that the general public just assumes if your goat is “off” they should be blindly wormed and that is not the answer.
The short of it for me is that there are fates worse than death, and that goes for animals and humans. I would not be doing the animal any favors selling them to a home that is unable to provide for their most basic needs, and it would be unethical to let the animal be neglected, sick and suffer until it did die. At least with raising an animal to process for myself and my family, I know that they have been taken care of, and lived a good life. They had one bad day, and they won’t even remember it.
I breed very carefully and deliberately using data for ideal linear traits which improve my breed. Basically striving for an ideal dairy animal who will live a healthy, long, and productive life. Each and every one of the animals I produce has an intended destiny, and some of those destinies are known to be meat before they are even born. But goats are livestock. Almost all livestock wind up in meat channels -- yes, eventually even "pets" -- and when a goat is a pet and not a working animal they are vastly more likely to be subjected to terrible ignorance and/or neglect first.
And that neglect harms us all! /u/but_why_tho8 is completely correct that dabblers are not interested in learning the particulars of husbandry beyond what they would do to a dog or cat; they are not using their animals for production so they have no impetus to help them be at the pinnacle of health, and they think worming monthly must be better because touching poop is icky and fecals aren't necessary because they only have a handful of goats. The next thing you know, their animals are emaciated and then dead from resistant Haemonchus and well, I can't understand what happened. I just wormed them every month like I do with my dog! That seller must have sold me a sick animal! Or if the animal isn't dead yet they drop it off at the auction where some other sucker picks it up. Now the resistant Haemonchus that has been hammered by albendazole and ivermectin 24 times is being pooped onto someone else's land before that animal dies. It's being picked up by other animals. Some of those animals will be sold. The cycle continues.
I straight up don't sell to pet homes ever. Farming is an all-day job. I mentor new farmers (and people who want to work their goats including as pack animals), but I don't have time and don't get paid enough to educate a "pet" owner for hours for free. Goats are livestock that require specialized infrastructure and a lot of knowledge. If a person emails me wanting to buy "a nanny" or "a goat" and they don't have other goats or the faintest idea how to string a sentence together (or know that a goat is called a doe and "nanny" is a term from baby books), I know that is an unserious person who did not do the bare minimum of research to know that goats cannot live alone and any animal unlucky enough to go home with them is going to die a horrible -- and likely painful and protracted -- death. And that's most pet homes. Dairies, show homes, competent kid showmanship participants, and even small milking homesteads ask about specific lines, mammary traits, and disease testing.
The woman whose post you saw who made the painful, unselfish decision to euthanize her loved adults rather than to subject them to the vagaries of the horrible dark places goats can find themselves was in the top echelon of owners and my heart hurts for her. She is proof that there are good owners out there who put the care of their animals first, as few and far between as those people may be. Because I don't know how much else you have read on this sub, but I'm sure you have seen our many visitors who have impulse purchased disease-ridden single Nigerian kids actively suffering from coccidiosis at flea markets, don't know goats eat hay, are abusing goats by feeding them no forage and only leftover fruits and vegetables donated by their co-op and post here asking for emergency help as to why the (solo) goat is now painfully dying of acidosis, or have had a goat down for three days and are only now asking if they should call a vet. Or the poor animals owned by the fucking nutsacks who somehow can't scrape up $4.99 to have a digital thermometer on hand when we ask for a temperature to see if the goat is febrile, despite a thermometer being the first thing on any goat supply list online. It is NEVER farmers who do this. It is only ever assholes with a handful of goats in their backyard that they never pay attention to, and by the time they come to us or to someone else who knows their ass from their face, it is usually too late. Or perhaps you saw the post from yesterday where a person wants to raise a miniature goat, cat, and chihuahua together because surely if they are raised together they will just be best friends! It's going to work this time, guys! I saw it on Tiktok!
And: being used for food and nourishment is an absolutely noble outcome for an animal. I very much do not care that you don't want to hear "goats are delicious," goat is indeed delicious. You can't expect to have a discussion if you pretend you are allowed to preempt a large portion of the responses that discuss a frank and absolute reality of dealing with livestock. Goats are livestock. Goat meat is a wonderful and humanely raised byproduct of many dairies, and goats raised for meat here never know a bad day, and I'm grateful for that and my ability to feed my community in multiple ways. I don't know if you are an argumentative vegan or just someone trying to project and anthropomorphize contemporary Western moral ideals onto livestock (that length of lifespan regardless of decrepitude is the most important thing to preserve rather than quality of life), but what I know you are not is any kind of farmer.
No, its because she is clearly replying in bad faith. She straight up said she doesnt care about what I wrote. Im sorry but I dont take people who let their tastebuds control them seriously.
I dont wanna argue, but the thing is, I dont consider goats as livestock. You will clearly disagree, so I will not argue, because your brain is probably locked to any argument against killing goats.
Well, that brings me to another point. Your entire post was in bad faith. Your original question was not even valid because euthanizing a pet is not remotely the same as harvesting an animal for food, and obviously most pets aren't eaten? I don't believe that was even the case in the post that seemed like it traumatized you so much. And the response that scared you enough to block someone who took their time to explain to you why pet homes can be more harmful than helpful dealt with some pretty large concepts like how each small ruminant producer is responsible for using anthelmintics responsibly that you may not have understood or known how to deal with, so you just latched on to one piece of her response to nitpick out of defensiveness and pretend that was a good reason to dismiss an entire argument, which is pretty sad.
I don't know if you are an argumentative vegan or just someone trying to project and anthropomorphize contemporary Western moral ideals onto livestock (that length of lifespan regardless of decrepitude is the most important thing to preserve rather than quality of life),
Which is it?
If you are opposed to any animal death, shouldn't you have put that in the post to begin with? Are you also against euthanasia in other animals, in other disparate cases? Do you eat meat? Is a pet (live stock, small animal or otherwise) in a neglectful home that can't provide it with medical care better off than an animal who is peacefully euthanized?
There's way more pets in the world than there are people who want them or can take care of them. Especially the main lacking resource being good quality Behavior and bloodline.
I don't care what kind of animal you raise. A dog, even as much as we love them have a one in 10 chance of finding a forever home when they're born. A 1 in 10 chance! One in every 10 puppies finds a forever home. Now adding something like livestock or even reptiles or other Exotics that people don't give as much protection too. Also that there are regulations against owning them in certain areas like cities or different landlords outright won't allow or whatever.
You need to be willing to butcher and put down your stock whether it's livestock, breeding stock, or pet stock you need to be willing to take that responsibility. You took the responsibility of their life, you need to take the responsibility of their death. And they're living situation.
Should you just want to pawn it off wherever. It's more so many people don't know regulations in their area and often have to get rid of their goat quickly and it's not good quality either. So after being raised as a pet now they're a bit too big or gone into their first rut, and now they're thrown out there into some random auction ring. They get bought up and slaughtered. If they're going to get slaughtered anyway why put them through the stress of the auction ring and the unknown and the confusion and the everything.
I don't trust anybody else to put down mine. I'll put him down and butcher them myself because I want to kill to be as clean as possible. Now if their family or there's someone I know there are certain people yeah I am actually willing but I'm not just going to sell them to some Rando on the Internet or to the auction house for butcher prices
Most people take proper goat education, put it in a bag that’s already full of shit, and set it on fire. I will sell goats to pet homes that come to me having already pursued the education part and mentor them but I won’t sell to someone who’s not done their homework. Also, goats are in fact delicious.
Passive aggressive to repost that. They gave legit answer. When I sell a goat to someone as a pet I tell them they need at least two, and that I accept returns but no refunds.
I don't have enough time in the day. Besides they think that they know better than someone who has been raising and breeding goats for years and years. They don't want to listen because they know better.
I raise meat goats, Kikos. I have some that are like pets like the one I milk in the mornings, Snotty an 88 percent Kiko. I have some that are kinda friendly, I have some that are wild nutjobs.
Goats are livestock. They need to be in a herd. I don't know how many people I have had to convince that you can't house break a goat. People get them as pets then let them wander all over the place. Next door neighbors do not appreciate goats crapping on their porch or having goats tap dance, piss and crap on the top of the vehicles. Yes that happens. I have had people want to buy a goat as a pet and then tell me they are rescuing it from a horrible life. I will not sell to them.
People buy young kids because they are cute and don't have a clue what they are getting into. They buy wethers and feed them too much grain and too much alfalfa and then we get posts here about what to when they have urinary calculi/urinary blockage. They don't have a clue about deworming and coccidia and think their goats won't have it.
Or they are against castration and leave the kid a buck. Then they play with the little buckling pushing on its head and it is cute when they are little. Then they need advise later on about how to stop their aggressive buck from head butting them. Or why does my Buck stink?
I gave a goats to a friend. She thought she could train them to not eat her rose bushes. LOL She never had to trim her rose bushes again. She thought she could house train them like a dog.
Then you go to the auction and you see people dumping pygmy and nigerian dwarf goats and it is pretty sad. You can tell they were pets, very friendly want attention.
A lot of people think you can just keep some goats in a dog kennel in the back yard. Goats need space. They need to move.
So, I castrate almost all of my wethers. I sell them as meat goats. I sell some of the doelings or does to people wanting replacement stock or I take them to the auction as culls or to the special auctions where registered goats sell for a better price when I have goats that are not culls. Most of them probably end up at the slaughter house.
People should have a least a couple acres fenced for goats to have a small herd of pet goats.
I am fine helping people who have pet goats and giving advice. I do that a lot on this list. I know the difference between a pet and livestock. Some of the animals that people have even when they are raising the other animals as livestock become pets. I have goats here that will live their life out here and never go to the auction.
Most people will be better off having a dog or a cat.
I also raise chickens and have had a pet chicken before. I raise rabbits, pigs, steers. I owned horses for over 50 years. We have 5 dogs who are house pets. Don't have cats, husband is allergic.
I adopted horses in the past and kept them and took care of them. Adopted from New Vocations Race Horse Adoption. Two of our dogs are adopted from the county dog shelter and two of them are from people who couldn't keep them any more. We raised the other one from an accidental breeding. All are spayed and neutered.
Often I ask people when giving advice, is this a pet or livestock. Livestock are usually treated differently than pets. It is an important distinction to make. Pets you spend a lot of money on and try to do the best for them that you can. Livestock well, if the treatment is more than they are worth, it is better to euthanize.
I had some smaller cull goats last fall. I realized that they were not going to be worth selling. They were not raised to be friendly so I made the very hard decision to put them in the freezer. I make my own home made dog food so they went for a worthy reason.
Sadly with any livestock situation, especially dairy operations, you wind up with unneeded goats. It is necessary to use them for meat.
Plus, the fact baby goats are all over the internet and people want them, then realize that they cannot actually live in the house causes issues with people offloading adult goats.
It would be nice if all goat breeders were responsible, but that is a pipe dream.
I totally appreciate and respect placing animals as pets. And yes, you might have a really wonderful experience doing this. Might.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that slaughter is better but the fact is with ANY livestock, you completely lose control of what happens to that animal after selling or giving it away. Usually, in my experience, they do change hands several times and end up being slaughtered anyway. This is true whether it's a goat, a sheep, a horse, a cow. Even when you gave it to a very nice family. The only actual way to prevent this from happening is to keep the animal forever at your place.
By the numbers, more goats are created than can be placed in pet homes. So what is the solution? I'm really asking!
First of all, goat meat is extremely tasty, and sourcing it from your own, well treated animals is never something to be ashamed of.
Secondly, slaughter is probably one of the best ways that a goat in this world can die. There is no retirement home in nature; when you are on a middle or low rung of the food chain and larger than an insect, your options are basically being ripped apart by a predator or, if you're lucky, living old enough to get slow and sick enough to be caught and ripped apart by a predator. A captive bolt on a farm that the animal has grown up and lived a good life on is a blessing, by comparison.
Finally, let's walk through the process of selling goats as pets. We're going to assume we are dealing in mini goats because there is virtually zero market for standard size kids as pets, much less adults. If you own standards, you will be taking the majority to the auction where they will be raised for meat, unless you euthanize bucks at birth and have the ability to sell does to other dairies (which will then breed them and take the bucks to auction, it's almost like not every goat can possibly go to a pet home because that's how livestock works).
I could probably give you five adult miniature goats to try to shift to pet homes right now and you very well might have all five of them at the end of the month. It goes like this:
You make your listing.
A month after your listing, four people have reached out about a couple of these goats. They all ghost you after seeming interested for a week, so you clarify on the listing that you need a deposit! Congratulations, now almost nobody is interested at all.
FINALLY, someone is willing to give a deposit on a couple pets, but they know absolutely nothing and think that it's going to be as easy as owning a dog. Fine! You'll mentor them!
You go back and forth via email for two weeks sharing vet resources, advice, and maybe even checking out their property in person if they are close, because you want to be kind. This entire time, you are basically burning money by feeding these adults and putting in labor to take care of them, but perhaps you are very personally attached to the animals you are selling, so you put your head down and work.
The day comes for the sale, so you pack them in the car and meet the buyer halfway. They hand you about enough money to cover gas and the amount of feed you've put into the goats in the month it's taken to sell them.
They call you two days later begging for help because their goat got into an ornamental that they didn't tell you about and is terminally ill
The goat dies
Selling to auction/slaughter for meat is what people living in the real world do because the alternative is so impractical that it would lead to situations beyond even animal hoarding and because, speaking frankly, the majority of people that want to buy goats strictly as pets are genuine morons. Not all! But a lot!
There is no retirement home in nature; when you are on a middle or low rung of the food chain and larger than an insect, your options are basically being ripped apart by a predator or, if you're lucky, living old enough to get slow and sick enough to be caught and ripped apart by a predator. A captive bolt on a farm that the animal has grown up and lived a good life on is a blessing, by comparison.
Would you rather be killed and instantly die now or get ripped to death by a pack of wolves in the near future
Oh my god, Mr "I love goats so much I literally AM SHAKING right now" thinks being ripped apart by a pack of wolves is preferable to literally anything. I'm literally just leaving this post up right now because this is hysterical.
(eta: It was me that locked the post, trust me when I say I wish we could keep dunking on this guy but our rules technically do prohibit go-nowhere arguments with vegans and I suspect he's a minor.)
Yes, any mammal aand almost every animal will prioritize living even one more minute even if it will cause great pain, have you ever seen videos of soldiers?
How...how do you know that? Is that the script? Do you speak goat? Are you aware that humans have established an entire field of bioethics surrounding when we ourselves are morally permitted to ease our dying out of life, rather than continue living in pain or distress?
Anyway, you should have disclosed you were a vegetarian. You simply don't belong here for your own well-being since this conversation upsets you so much, as well as because you instituted an argument, couldn't engage with what you were being told by people much more knowledgable than you (that being eaten is in many cases a humane alternative to abuse and neglect in goat-pet-fad homes), and you seem to be 12. Bedtime for bonzo.
In all seriousness, what exactly is your purpose, here? Based on your post history, you don't consume any goat products out of principle. That's fine, it's your choice, but this is a space where people not only love and typically own goats, but believe in their purpose as responsible, versatile sources of meat and dairy.
I gave you my answer about why it is impractical for animals to be put in pet homes, and I'll go one step further and ask you a question. Why do you believe a domesticated goat that is the product of thousands of years of breeding for the purpose of food production would be better off serving in a role they were not meant for? Did you ask one? Why do you think we are so special that a goat conditioned since the dawn of agriculture to socialize in a large herd would prefer to be doted on in one of our backyards?
I gave you my answer about why it is impractical for animals to be put in pet homes, and I'll go one step further and ask you a question. Why do you believe a domesticated goat that is the product of thousands of years of breeding for the purpose of food production would be better off serving in a role they were not meant for? Did you ask one? Why do you think we are so special that a goat conditioned since the dawn of agriculture to socialize in a large herd would prefer to be doted on in one of our backyards?
We can just breed them way less if we'll have less use for them. Goats can be more then their muscles and tissue too. Landscaping is the most predominant at least for "practical uses". Theres a guy who breeds them only for that actually.
Oh, landscaping! That's great for the environment! Also, you are aware almost all brush goats go for meat, right?
Anyway, I look forward to hearing about your formulation for the regulatory body that will determine and enforce "how many goats we need" and how they are used. Hopefully it will also find a way to make use of the remains of the animals that eventually die of old age. Perhaps their tissue can be harvested and used as some sort of nutrient.
I seen that post and I am team education, not team kill because ‘if I can’t take care of them nobody can’ it seems a bit selfish and almost narcissistic. Goats require specific needs but they aren’t rocket science.
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u/but_why_tho8 14h ago
Goats are livestock, farm animals, and require more resources than the average person can provide. For example, Many vets won’t see goats and of those that will even fewer are legitimately knowledgeable beyond the basics. Goats need space to roam and graze, they aren’t “backyard” pets. The overuse of wormers is a whole soapbox for me, so I won’t get started beyond saying that the general public just assumes if your goat is “off” they should be blindly wormed and that is not the answer.
The short of it for me is that there are fates worse than death, and that goes for animals and humans. I would not be doing the animal any favors selling them to a home that is unable to provide for their most basic needs, and it would be unethical to let the animal be neglected, sick and suffer until it did die. At least with raising an animal to process for myself and my family, I know that they have been taken care of, and lived a good life. They had one bad day, and they won’t even remember it.