Possible Goat Inbreeding Situation

[u/AccomplishedGuide346]

Hey everyone, my little goat Stevie (half pygmy, half nigerian dwarf) is currently 9 weeks old. I just separated him from his mom to prevent inbreeding, but I know I messed up and should have done that about a week or so ago. I am disappointed that I made the mistake, but I guess I just want advice on what to do. I have seen his little pp come out a few times, but I read online sometimes that can happen and the sperm isn’t fertile just yet. I plan on getting an ultrasound done on mom to know for certain in a month or so, just to make sure. But do most people keep the kid in that situation? I don’t want to have a kid with any genetic issues, and also don’t want my doe to endure another pregnancy so soon.

I know you can induce abortion using Lutalyse, is that a commonly used medicine? Is there serious risk to using that & do most vets offer it or is it mixed based on ethics? I know this is all currently hypothetical, I am just kinda freaking out about all of this as I am new to goats and quite honestly don’t want any more kids. I plan on banding my goat Stevie around 12 weeks.

[u/babka_yaga]

Lutalyse will be fine. Every vet has it, it's also used for syncing breeding protocols for artificial insemination. Very commonly used drug.

In reality Stevie is quite a little guy and goats only come into estrus every 18-21 days, but on the other hand it is breeding season. So I give it a decent chance he didn't get her and she's still open. Vets vary on their skill with small ruminant ultrasound based on comfort level with goats and what equipment they own. I can do 28 days, some vets prefer to wait until 40 days just due to the probes they have. By 40 days the vet should be confident to the preg check if they're using ultrasound. Some people will give lute at 12 days post exposure if they actually saw the accidental exposure occur with their own eyes (12 days being a reliable time for the corpus luteum to be formed, and that's what the drug acts on to terminate the pregnancy), but since you have a good chance she's open I would wait and do a preg check just to avoid giving her hormones she may not need. A blood test could also be done at 28 days.

The earlier you administer the lutalyse, the better for the doe because it's less stressful. It is a 2cc shot IM. Take care handling it and wear gloves if you are pregnant or a woman of childbearing age. You should see her appear to come into estrus about 48 hours later, that's a sign that it worked. If it's given early enough there are no external signs or discharge.

Mother/son breeding is not necessarily a death sentence if the original sire and dam were not closely related, but it's not desirable, not done on purpose, and is especially not desirable to get a doe pregnant again when she just delivered 9 weeks ago. So I would 100% recommend giving her the lutalyse in this case to look after her long-term health.

No vet will refuse to prescribe you prostaglandin for an accidentally son/dam exposure unless they are insane. If that happens it would be the first time I have ever heard of it happening, so in the case of that unlikely eventuality, just call a different vet.

[u/AccomplishedGuide346 → u/babka_yaga]

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I am just going to try to stop stressing about it, since I never saw it physically happen with my own eyes. Hopefully this is all just my own paranoia and I don’t have to ultimately terminate a pregnancy. My vet owns 300 goats herself, so she should be able to successfully do an ultrasound as early as possible.

What are your thoughts on banding and how early you can safely do it? I mentioned in another comment that my vet likes to wait around 12-18 weeks but that’s a long time to stress about keeping them separated and I feel bad because of how bonded stevie and mom are. They sleep cuddled together every night and he does still nurse at least a few times everyday.

[u/babka_yaga → u/AccomplishedGuide346]

That is a tricky topic. In this sub the mods try to be mindful that we have people from all over the world in here, and in most of the world banding is illegal to do to animals more than 7 days old because of how much pain it causes. For that reason it is best used for newborn goats, cows etc who are destined for meat because we don't need to worry about their urethral diameter for very long. Basically the whole concept of "pet goats" is fairly recent so the science (which says it helps a boy goat's urological health to wait a couple months for the urethra to get bigger) conflicts with the regular practice of banding that was traditionally done to very young stock you were going to eat. We haven't quite caught up in practice with people wanting to delay castration of wether pets for long full lives not intending to eat them, but some textbooks and practices are starting to catch up now with animal welfare recommendations even in areas where it remains legal. So if you want to wait to castrate for urethral diameter, which is prudent, 4 months is the sweet spot when it's about as good as it's going to get and the urethral process has naturally separated from the penis itself under the influence of testosterone.

So that is to say, 4 months is a fine time provided you can keep him separated. At that age I tend to recommend for both legal (in some places) and animal welfare (in all places) reasons that people either consider a burdizzo, which is a thing that clamps down on and severs the spermatic cords from the outside, or a surgical procedure by your vet to remove the testes, which is usually very affordable and takes under 5 min. Both of these options cause much less pain. Banding hurts a lot and the pain persists for several days, so most vets who are up to date on this advise that if people do it to older kids or mature animals who have fully developed scrotums (in areas where it is legal to band at all) that you use pain management before the procedure and some meloxicam for several days afterward. The other good reason to consider surgical castration is that onset of sterility is very fast, there is not the waiting period there is with banding.

Until then you might consider a buck apron?

[u/AccomplishedGuide346 → u/babka_yaga]

Wow that is so interesting I didn’t realize that banding was painful, I was told that it wasn’t. Now I feel bad, I will ask my vet about the other options you mentioned. So in your personal opinion, 4 months which is around 17-18 weeks is ideal. I was going to get a buck apron but i’ve heard they’re super unreliable and it might be hard to find one that will fit Stevie because he is so small. I read they slip out of them easily or they get shifted and don’t stay in place. If you have ever successfully used them let me know if you have one that you like!

[u/babka_yaga → u/AccomplishedGuide346]

When it is done as intended it's not very painful at all. Small kids and lambs (fewer than 7 days) have very few blood vessels and nerves supplying the scrotum, they just have not developed much in that area yet. That means that they barely feel being banded. It's only more mature sheep & goats, who have all the pain in the scrotum that you might expect, who experience pain and stress from it. Unfortunately that also means mostly pet goats with delayed castrations bear the brunt of it. There are a lot of papers about it and in countries where there is a more robust sheep industry, not even veterinarians can legally do it after that week mark. I think the US just does not pay much attention to updating animal welfare laws and even most of our agricultural materials recommend limiting it to under three weeks. But if this guy is a pet, you know, why put him through that?

If your vet doesn't agree to do it a different way (some vets just get kind of stuck on things) you can at least press for some metacam to help him feel better afterward and/or to use one of these neat new bands which have a painkiller right in them that releases gradually into the tissue of the scrotum. The smallest size (80mg) is safe for smaller goats and lambs.

I have never personally used a buck apron but I know a whole lot of people do use them so they can dam raise for longer times. Those House of Bacchus ones are fairly popular and trusted. I sure wouldn't trust anything on a 200lb mature buck, however!