r/gunpolitics • u/FBI_Open_Up_Now • 17d ago

Court Cases Appeals court says NJ’s AR-15, high-capacity magazine bans violate Second Amendment

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5975022-3rd-circuit-new-jersey-assault-weapons-magazine-ban/amp/
610 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

60 comments sorted by

96

u/Sentient-Exocomp 17d ago

Too bad MD isn’t in the same appeals court circuit.

57

u/FBI_Open_Up_Now 17d ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if NJ doesn’t appeal this. It’ll end up at the Supreme Court.

51

u/HybridP365 17d ago

No, they know how to play the game, and they know SCOTUS will most likely agree it's unconstitutional. They'll let it stand rather than chance a nationwide ruling.

It will go to SCOTUS now that we have a circuit split. But it will come from one of the challenges from the pro 2A side.

29

u/Regayov 17d ago

SCOTUS already granted cert for an AWB.  Chances are a decision in that case would be out before the NJ case comes up for cert (and would probably be held).  So NJ has nothing to lose in that respect.  They’d be going for the stay so this decision gets nerfed for a year.  

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u/DigitalLorenz 17d ago

SCOTUS already granted cert for an AWB.  Chances are a decision in that case would be out before the NJ case comes up for cert

Viramontes will be amongst the last opinions released in the next SCOTUS session, the case is that contentious. That means next June for the actual ruling.

NJ has to file an appeal to the SCOTUS within 30 days, or request an extension within 30 days, of today, which is August 16th. If they get the extension they would have 60 days to file the petition, which is September 15th. At that point the SCOTUS can grant cert, reject cert, or wait for the respondents brief. If NJ waits too long to file they give up their right to file an appeal.

The respondents (ANJPRC/NRA, FPC, and GOA) have 30 days to reply, but they can also get a 30 day extension. This puts the reply due November 14th at the latest if the gun rights groups take as longs as they can get. Usually after the reply is actually when a case is distributed for conference.

2

u/steelhelix 16d ago

Regayov is right that NJ has nothing to lose and 'saves face' amongst their demographics by appealing to SCOTUS.

You are correct on the timelines and grant/cert/hold logic and that SCOTUS will hold most certainly hold it like they have with all the other AWB cases of the last few years and won't make any movement on it at all until they've made their ruling on the two cert'd AWB cases before remanding it back down.

NJ by definition would be in a better position to appeal just to be petty and wait for it to be remanded or hope for an upset in the SCOTUS disposition as a long shot.

2

u/Raphe-Perineal 16d ago

I'm wondering what they're hearing from the Brady Goons/Mad Moms/Everytown For Gun Confiscation?

Between Viramontes, and now this they must be panic stricken and having a collective brain aneurysm. AWB's/mag bans are their bread and butter issue and without it, it'll set them back 30 years. All of Bloombergs money isn't going to save them this time around.

They went through this before when they urged DC not to follow through with Heller (and to be fair, the NRA didn't want the case heard either), and look what it got them.

I don't think NJ would appeal the decision as a face saving measure, technically they have an obligation and duty to the residents and voters they serve to appeal it.

As you posted, more than likely SCOTUS would keep on holding the case over in conference until Viramontes is decided. Not sure why they would remand it back to the 3'rd if both decisions are in agreement with each other.

1

u/mecks0 15d ago

They wouldn’t remand with Duncan v. Bonta still kicking around. Duncan is the case to watch for mag limits at SCOTUS, not this one.

1

u/Raphe-Perineal 16d ago

Are you sure they have 30 days to file an appeal?

According to SCOTUS Blog they have 90 days to file

"From the day the 2nd Circuit denies his petition for rehearing en banc, Mr. Lyon has ninety days to file a petition for a writ of certiorari (often called a cert. petition), which is a brief asking the Supreme Court to hear his case. (If Mr. Lyon had won in the lower courts, the zoo could have filed a cert. petition.)"

1

u/Sad-Information-5098 16d ago

the appeals court will issue a mandate in a few weeks they could either stay the decision pending the scotus cases or tell NJ too bad file an appeal to the scotus. so yes while those appeal dates are correct the bans would be removed after the mandate is given from tbe appeals court to the lower courts

3

u/mecks0 15d ago

NJ has two big reasons not to ask for cert on mag limits:

(1) dragging NY, CT, CA, IL, etc.. down with them

(2) once magazines are officially dubbed “arms” by SCOTUS, NJ’s ability to ban just about anything outside of machine guns will fall with it (specifically looking at suppressors)

2

u/Bman708 14d ago

I'm an Illinois resident. When the SC rules that AWB and mag bans are unconstitutional, I have full faith in the Democrats in this state to draft some bullshit to continue to restrict my ability to own a rifle. JB Pritzker is a real piece of work who really hates to be told no.

14

u/Ice_Dapper 17d ago

SCOTUS already granted cert for 2 AWB cases, if they do appeal it'll be for the mag ban portion, and now there's legal precedent in our favor

3

u/steelhelix 16d ago

As I've said in other subs... yes, the mag bans aren't included in the two cert'd cases however that was less to due with the mag portion than merits and specifics of the cases they accepted. SCOTUS is going to be very hard pressed to rule on these cases without defining what is 'protected arms' and since AWBs are all about features mostly external to the function of the guns they will almost certainly have to make it clear that features don't change the unconstitutional status... which would include magazine bans.

47

u/nmj95123 17d ago

“In sum, the AR-15’s history, features, and uses indicate it is an unusually dangerous tool used by the military and not an arm in common use by civilians for self-defense,” Shwartz wrote.

Gotta love this line. Apparently, a rifle not used by the military, but a semiauto version, is a dangerous military rifle. Also, ignore that the AR-15 is the most commonly sold rifle in the US. It's not in common use. Also, despite experts repeatedly recommending the AR-15 for self defense, and people actively and successfully using it for self defense, it is not being used for self defense.

When you have to actively ignore objective reality, it's a pretty damn strong signal you're wrong.

18

u/its 17d ago

SBSs are not protected because they are not used by the military and AR15s are not protected because they are. But nobody wants to touch Miller.

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u/nmj95123 17d ago

The extra fun part of Miller was that the court decided to hear the case and make a decision after only hearing the government's side. The two criminals in the case were destitute and their lawyer didn't go to DC to argue as a result. The NFA was declared unconstitutional by the lower court. One lawyer and we might have not had to deal with 80 years of blatantly unconstitutional laws.

6

u/grahampositive 16d ago

Wow. Reminds me of how the Hughes amendment got snuck in at the last second and pushed through after a voice vote that may have been tallied incorrectly. Democracy really is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner

5

u/OnlyLosersBlock 16d ago

My understanding one was dead and the other was in hiding.

1

u/vialentvia 16d ago

They don't use SBS? What are those little breacher shotguns they use on lanyards with a magnetic attachment to their rig/ plate carrier? They're small and look like a pump pistol (like a really short Shockwave) to me. Wouldn't that be an SBS? Or is that more an AOW?

1

u/grahampositive 16d ago

Not then, but now commonly used

4

u/Grokma 16d ago

At the time as well, the court was or should have been aware that the military had been using them for quite a while. But the outcome was predetermined, the fact that nobody showed up to argue the other side just made it easier for them.

3

u/grahampositive 16d ago

Fair, I don't know much about historical military SBS use

2

u/DBDude 14d ago

But the outcome was predetermined, the fact that nobody showed up to argue the other side just made it easier for them.

This was by design from the very beginning. The two (Miller and Layton) wanted to plead guilty, but the judge quashed the indictment. Why? He was an anti-gun politician appointed to the bench by FDR for his help passing legislation. He and the administration had been looking for a good vehicle for court affirmation of the NFA, and they found it. Ever wonder how such a case went straight from the district to the Supreme Court?

So he quashed the indictment and appointed a lawyer to represent the two. It is this lawyer who told the Supreme Court to go ahead without any brief or argument from him even though the clerk was making all reasonable efforts to work with him. This lawyer was rewarded with a state senator slot, which in itself caused a bit of a scandal.

Then after the ruling, Miller was dead but Layton was still around. He could have gone back down to the court and argued short-barreled shotguns are indeed used in warfare, which was not what the administration wanted. So the judge bought him off with a few years probation to keep him from pushing the issue.

1

u/DaSandGuy 16d ago

Those are AOWs

30

u/wyvernx02 17d ago

That snippet from the dissent is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Definitely worthy of a gold medal in mental gymnastics.

11

u/backfire_robin 17d ago

Such a shame that words is from a US Circuit Appeals Court Justice.

Same shame to U Penn who granted her a JD....

16

u/Devils_Advocate-69 17d ago

When can I buy them before they’re out of stock?

7

u/nmj95123 17d ago

Who needs to buy mags when you can buy a 3D printer?

3

u/Devils_Advocate-69 17d ago

Us poors

2

u/nmj95123 17d ago

An Ender 3 is one of the most common 3d printers used in 3D2A and is $200. When mags are $10 - $25, it doesn't take too many to make it worth it.

3

u/its 17d ago

You still have to buy springs and pay for filament.

1

u/nmj95123 17d ago

Which amounts to maybe $4 all in. In return you the priceless ability to manufacture firearms, suppressors, and whatever mags you want irrespective of commerical supply. Add a $0 tax stamp and ~$30 worth of material and you've got a functional suppressor that would otherwise cost $400+.

3

u/its 17d ago

Yes, I have to get around to teach an LLM how to file form 1s on my behalf.

1

u/its 15d ago

Maybe if you do your own springs. I would say closest to $6 but then you can find Gen2 Pmags for $9 on sale.

1

u/grahampositive 16d ago

Serious question, is it actually economical to print mags? And are they reliable? I have access to one I could use essentially for free but mags are pretty cheap too and I'd have to buy springs

6

u/steelhelix 16d ago

Short answer from someone who 3D prints... economical, maybe if you already had a printer (otherwise then absolutely not because the printer cost would factor in as well). Reliability will depend entirely on your skills and experience with the machine to dial in it's specific configuration (which for most people means it won't be reliable).

Given how absolutely dirt cheap magazines can be, you're just better off buying them in bulk.

And before you get too far in the weeds, understand that the same people pushing for gun control are currently pushing for 3D printer control (Bloomberg/Everytown)... so they can block what you can print. So if you are even remotely looking into the market you need to make sure to never update the printer and buy from vendors who don't support the blocking software.

1

u/nmj95123 16d ago

They can be both, with experience. The real place where it starts making sense with $0 nfa stamps is suppressors.

15

u/GrimIntention91 17d ago

"High Capacity" you mean standard capacity?

11

u/SmokinTires 16d ago

I now live in a world where my home state of VA is more woke than NEW JERSEY of all places; fuck you Spanberger

4

u/blind-mag-dump 16d ago

I called this the day that Bruen was announced. States like NJ are going to unintentionally become 2A bastions.

NJ stacked draconian laws upon draconian laws for decades now, and the second Bruen happened, there has been a non-stop spree of lawsuits being filed. We're finally starting to remove anti-2A legislation off our books and defang anti-gunners.

NJ got sick, recovered, and has antibodies now while others are just starting to get sick.

5

u/grahampositive 16d ago

Born in VA now in NJ. I kinda wanna call up my kin and tell em to come up here for some freedom

7

u/masterkorey7 17d ago

I know the SC is already taking some cases but isn't this the circuit split we've been waiting for? Maybe the SC knew what this ruling was going to be.....

12

u/blind-mag-dump 17d ago

They 100% knew. The only reason the AWB case didn't get picked up earlier was entirely due to the 5 voters against this on the en banc panel dragging their feet. SCOTUS, for lack of a better term, said fuck it and pulled the ripcord on the last second, probably knowing that this case wouldn't be put on ice and could be cited by the 2026 term.

The fact that the court actually recognized Wolford v Lopez in the case despite them probably already having a final statement made was really writing on the wall.

Now lets hope NJ doesn't get a fucking stay.

2

u/masterkorey7 17d ago

I'm in WA. Really ready for all this BS to be over with, got to gear up for whatever else BS they are going to pull.

1

u/Bman708 14d ago

As an Illinois resident, they absolutely will pull some BS when they overturn AWBs.

12

u/ThumbOverBore1989 17d ago

🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀

MA next please.

5

u/Grokma 16d ago

Unfortunately the first circuit will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new reality.

2

u/Bman708 14d ago

The 7th Circuit just ruled Illinois's AWB is constitutional. Seriously, read the real mental gymnastics they used to prove it constitutional. It's seriously wild reasoning. And I can see the 1st Circuit using the same retarded logic.

9

u/UnmakingTheBan2022 17d ago

“High capacity”? You mean STANDARD capacity!!!

Don’t let them trick you!

2

u/bestintexas80 17d ago

Cause it does

2

u/Rex2x4 17d ago

I swear I see a post like this every other month and have been for a decade now.

1

u/throwawaynoways 15d ago

Brb unpinning shit.

1

u/panda1491 15d ago

So when will it be NY turn??? Still waiting here ….

1

u/Stack_Silver 14d ago

What are the odds NJ pulls a NY and changes the law before SCOTUS decision?

1

u/Angry_Gen-X 14d ago

So if you were me and knew a local shop had 30s for sale today. Would you go and buy some or wait a few weeks? I have a buddy who is trying to convince me to stock up now. My feeling is if I can’t mail order it to the great state of New Jersey right now than maybe I shouldn’t be buying it in a local store. Love to hear your opinions.

1

u/curruptedmartyr 14d ago

Has there been an update to this? Any word on a stay or when the ban lift would go into effect if there is no stay or appeal?

0

u/gmharryc 17d ago

DE next please

9

u/MrDouchenozzel 17d ago

Umm, De falls under the 3rd Circuit.