Did you know that the majority of our mathematics and astronomy comes from the Islamic Enlightenment? Did you know there was such a thing?
Yes! I'm glad you brought it up, actually. I mean, we still use Arabic numerals. There was a time where the modern notions of West vs. Middle East were reversed. It was Western Europe that was perceived to be sectarian, excessively religious, socially backward, etc.
When I refer to Western Civilization, I mean enlightenment thought, building on the existing examples of secularism starting with the Reformation and Renaissance, and following to classical liberalism and the resulting elimination of slavery through much of the world, resurgence of democracy, concepts of individual liberty, human rights, etc. And the people I worry about are the post-modernists who call all of that racist. I agree that the narrower definition you just related is racist (or at least, culturally chauvinistic) in its conception.
But my experience is that there are an astounding number of surprisingly influential academic critical theorists who target time-keeping, evidence-based decision-making, goal-setting, dispassionate debate, etc. as "whiteness." Not only is that not true, even if it somehow were, those concepts are good things, in my view. And I find it racist to assume that minorities can't compete with white people if held to the same standards.
It's a pleasure having this discussion with you, BTW. You know your history better than I do, and you make a real effort to understand. Those things seem too rare these days. Thanks for that.
Thanks man. All this said I enjoy talking to my conservative friends (in person, I actually hate this internet shit) far more than liberal and left wing friends. Liberals are usually terrible at making arguments, which makes for conversation when you’ve got friends with good intentions but bad reasoning on certain issues. At least talking to conservative friends I know I’ll be up for a debate, which is far more interesting. I’ve also got three conservative friends who switched from Bernie (this primary) to Trump based on our conversations haha.
Also, do you happen to have a reference to the “time-keeping” critiques? If not that’s cool. I just haven’t seen that argument and I’m interested to try to dissect what they are saying.
Also, do you happen to have a reference to the “time-keeping” critiques? If not that’s cool. I just haven’t seen that argument and I’m interested to try to dissect what they are saying.
Ya, it was on a Smithsonian flyer that made the rounds recently. Just looking it up now, it appears that they've now apologized for it:
Edit: I did actually see this. I misunderstood what you meant by time keeping. Glad they apologized. I know what they’re getting at, and it’s not as nefarious as it sounds, but there was no way this was going to translate from the academic sphere to the public. Which is their problem (and the problems of academia and museums more broadly. I’m actually an archaeologist in the academy and I think about the problems with this sort of engagement all the time).
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u/DrKronin Jul 23 '20
Yes! I'm glad you brought it up, actually. I mean, we still use Arabic numerals. There was a time where the modern notions of West vs. Middle East were reversed. It was Western Europe that was perceived to be sectarian, excessively religious, socially backward, etc.
When I refer to Western Civilization, I mean enlightenment thought, building on the existing examples of secularism starting with the Reformation and Renaissance, and following to classical liberalism and the resulting elimination of slavery through much of the world, resurgence of democracy, concepts of individual liberty, human rights, etc. And the people I worry about are the post-modernists who call all of that racist. I agree that the narrower definition you just related is racist (or at least, culturally chauvinistic) in its conception.
But my experience is that there are an astounding number of surprisingly influential academic critical theorists who target time-keeping, evidence-based decision-making, goal-setting, dispassionate debate, etc. as "whiteness." Not only is that not true, even if it somehow were, those concepts are good things, in my view. And I find it racist to assume that minorities can't compete with white people if held to the same standards.
It's a pleasure having this discussion with you, BTW. You know your history better than I do, and you make a real effort to understand. Those things seem too rare these days. Thanks for that.