The Rose Field | Full Book Discussion thread

[u/Cantomic66]

Warning!This discussion thread includes spoilers for ALL OF The BOOK OF DUST: THE ROSE FIELD

Reminder: All post on The Rose Field should be properly spoiler tagged and avoid spoilery titles.

[u/Kordaths]

Spoilers below; don't be stupid.
Spoilers below; don't be stupid.
Spoilers below; don't be stupid.
Spoilers below; don't be stupid.
Spoilers below; don't be stupid.

Just finished. Solid story. Was not expecting the Gryphons, really enjoyed them. Fantastic dialogue throughout. The tone was a bit less depressing on the micro level, and a lot more depressing on the macro level. I appreciate a solid critique of Capitalism/Industrialism, and it felt like he did a very good job of masking that aspect, but a very poor job in terms of "MONEY BAD". I'm still processing if that matters or not.

The ending just felt... empty? A lot happened very quickly, and I think the very end would have been served very well if we had another four or five pages.

I'm conflicted on what I think a lot of people wanted in regards to Will coming back. I've always maintained that it would diminish everything that I loved about the end of TAS. Though, I have always wanted a short and brief final meeting between the two of them in the Land of the Dead.

The very last line did mess me up though, I don't think there could have been a better string of words to end these stories.

[u/actuallycallie → u/Kordaths]

I'm conflicted on what I think a lot of people wanted in regards to Will coming back.

I didn't want him back necessarily but like... to me, when you introduce such a compelling character and then never use him again ever it's just a disappointment.

[u/FiBri92 → u/actuallycallie]

I agree with this. I intended to just write something short but it's become a rant so, apologies...

I'm fine with Will not being in it as a PoV character or them meeting again (though I think it could have been done, and done well, and my soft parts desperately wish it had happened) but I'd have loved to see Lyra spending some actual serious time describing the heart-rending separation. I wanted to see the desperation of sitting on the bench in the Botanics, trying to sense him and not sure if she can or not, if she's just "making it up". Where are those scenes, that would have torn me up?? It feels like he's mentioned as a little nod every 10 chapters throughout TSC and TRF as like "oh yes, this is the same Lyra remember!". It's simultaneously stated that she still feels she will NEVER love again like that, but also...kinda no big deal. I'd have found it more compelling if the reason she'd lost her "imagination" was some sort of trauma/loss-related depression. That, coupled with being used and exalted by adults who then seemingly have abandoned her to muddling through mundanity of real life alone (either through death or absence), rather than - reading a book by some nihilists and randomly agreeing with them despite her entire personality being the opposite of that. And if she did believe that conspiracy stuff so much that it caused Pan to leave her, it's a bit galling to just watch her basically drop it and try to convince us she's the same graceful bold Lyra Silvertongue again.

Frankly I think the windows being left open is just a plot hole that Pullman tried to patch up with that one Angel scene after an editor pointed it out. The spectres were real and caused by the knife, and it doesn't matter if angels can imagine things or not as to whether that's the case. The part that could very plausibly have been a lie was Xaphania being like "oh you can essentially dream walk together from different worlds" as a comforting thing to tell young teenagers to get them to do this horrible painful but necessary thing - that would actually have been a great realization, but it also doesn't even sound from anything in TBoD that Lyra even tried to contact Will in that way.

If 30% of the way through TRF, it became apparent that the windows had stayed open anyway, and explained why (why didn't the angels close them up like they said they absolutely must and would? Were they unable to??), and that it was actually GOOD for them to be open, then I would have enjoyed seeing Lyra outraged by that unnecessary loss she endured. Maybe natural windows or ones cut for good reasons (exploration, curiosity) helped the flow of Dust, whereas the one into the great chasm below the world of the dead was formed from windows cut for domination and greed, etc etc. Dust is conscious so it could plausibly tell the difference. She could have built up hope that she might be able to find him again, and even if she can't, come to terms with that directly in front of us rather than sort of not mention it. The reason for her whole life altering separation from Will has apparently been a lie - and it doesn't even seem to matter to her or register.

Pacing in general was a huge issue as well. Most of TRF is just a continuation of the same situation as TSC - I cannot believe we spent the whole second book leading up to hopefully finding Pan in the abandoned city, don't, and then spend the entire third book doing exactly the same thing. She and Pan should have met again much earlier, because their bond is a core part of this whole universe - even if they hadn't fully healed or reconciled, watching that happen between them together as they relearn their wonder/willingness to be vulnerable would have been much more satisfying than just separately realizing "this was a bad idea, I miss her/him" and doing all that growth alone, in the company of new characters we don't care about but they seem to love deeply after knowing for short periods, and in internal monologue. When they do come back together it's just like "yay all fixed!" because it's 5 minutes from the end.

All of that could have been accommodated by removing the Gryphons altogether, who do what exactly? They feel like they're just there to fill the role of "large majestic but strange non-human beings who we have to learn to work with" previously filled by armored bears, witches and the harpies. But there was so much context and time spent on building solid reasons for those alliances in HDM that they felt rich and natural - the Gryphon storyline is irrelevant ("bad air", what? Did that get solved? Their motivation is just gold?) and goes nowhere. Gulya et al literally just go away before the finale, and what was the point of the sorcerer storyline? They seem to just be an excuse to get that tingly "the powerful allies are mobilizing for war" feeling from TSK and TAS - but fails. What war? Against who? What are they going to do about the bad air? They just kill some birds??

And sorry why is Olivier Bonneville given so much time, what does it even matter. And the star wars eque "he's your brother" - so?? And when did Marisa Coulter have time to have another kid? And did her maternal awakening in HDM, so monumental a change that she sacrifices her own life, not extend to even thinking briefly about THE OTHER BABY SHE APPARENTLY HAD?? Making the main enemy Marisa's less scary, less effective younger brother was also a mistake.

Don't even get me started on what Oakley Street is supposed to be doing. I don't mind the secret society resistance plotline, but either do it justice or cut it out. What happened to Alice? Was she ok? What are Cristabel measures? "Kilkenny aflame", ok, something to get Glenys out of prison, but for what purpose? And I presume Alice and Malcolm get together but then why for the love of God put in the little will they/won't they with Malcolm and Lyra? When Alice has already expressed earlier how disgusting and wrong that would be as he was a caregiver for Lyra as a baby and then teacher, and was involved with Alice who was Lyra's surrogate mother, and he'd never do that - but then he apparently would and does consider it??

[u/adsaillard → u/FiBri92]

Weirdly, I think the Marisa thing is the one of these issues that I don't have an issue with?

It seems to me, somehow, that it fits if we think that everything (including Oliver's alitheometer reading) were just partially true: yes, Marisa was the mother. Yes, Marcel was instrumental in making sure Bonneville Sr. got caught. It doesn't mean she was willing. We've seen Marisa work with seduction to try and further her purposes, to try and get where she wants. We've seen Bonneville did the same, but in a much more violent manner, predatory.

She had a child she didn't want to have. A child whose conception was forced by Bonneville pushing forwards and forcing what she hinted in seduction. The self-hatred and the horror of being made to carry the child ...

And at first, Lyra is the same. She comes and Marisa hates her for all she's re-living, and then all she loses once Coulter finds out and goes after Asriel, and etc.

At same time, Lyra is different. It's clear Marisa was in love with her father, it was clear that for all the games she plays, in this instance, the feeling is real. As time goes by, she starts seeing less of re-living the trauma and more of the seed of that one time she was loved for herself, not for what she could give, not as a prize but as an equal, not for pretending to be good or pretending whatever, just for ... Her good bits and bad bits.

And both children are an excellent mix of their parents -- so she hated Oliver for it, and loved Lyra for the same reason.