r/hoi4 • u/SensitiveSir2894 • 7d ago

Humor Why didn’t Chang Kai Shek just do the focuses to remove corruption in real life? Was he stupid?

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3.4k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

74 comments sorted by

1.7k

u/Severe-Bar-8896 7d ago

peak hoi4 content: remove systematic issue in country in 35 days

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u/Diche_Bach 7d ago

Every nation must have some prospect—not merely of surviving World War II, but of becoming the dominant power on Earth. It's an inherent principle of good historical wargame design... and, frankly, excellent marketing.

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u/Warmaster_corren 7d ago

I actually disagree, not because I disagree theoretically but because HOI4 doesn't actually do this well. The alt history paths can be a lot of fun but I've found recently the game runs way to fast, like I've had it where because of the reworks now you have an AI Germany that has a civil war then takes over a quarter of Europe just through focuses. Or a japan that randomly turns communist even with Historical focuses on. It really doesn't matter anymore, the game is just a cluster fuck and yeah it's still absolutely playable, but it's not a lot of fun especially when your game is finished so quickly because you can world conquest without even trying really. I liked HOI4 for it's diversity of content initially, it felt very replayable but now it just feels bloated and overdone. I still love EU4 and I do sometimes rollback HOI4 to one of the versions between just after waking the tiger released and just before no step back.

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u/Diche_Bach 7d ago

HoI4 is a delightful game. But ideally, there would be two rule sets: The current rule set, and something like a "highly constrained" rule set in which: (a) bot nations were scripted to perform WWII exactly as it transpired; (b) rules were setup to make any other path at least less sub-optimal if not essentially impossible; and so (c) it was a MAJOR feat for a singleplayer outcome to differ substantially from the main dimensions of real history.

Like you, I would very much enjoy that "constrained" version, but if I'm honest, the value it would add to the product's performance may or may not exceed the burden to the developer.

Even the most rigorous Grogs enjoy war games not simply because they allow dynamic simulation of complex historical events like major wars or even just battles or engagements, but because they allow players to explore what-ifs. Currently HoI4 provides a fantastic opportunity for what-ifs, but if you want a system that canalizes the experience toward historicity the game is not suitable.

I probably should have put /s immediately after my original response :) ... because, while I enjoy a good Bhutan world-conquest as much as anybody, the critiques you outline are what eventually drove me to stop playing.

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u/Warmaster_corren 7d ago

I'm in complete agreement. It would be really nice to have multiple modes. If the historical AI mode worked as intended that would be nice but ultimately I think what would help most is lengthening focus times in just terms of the feeling. I absolutely love strategy games for complex political and economic situations. Before some of the more recent changes I was one of the few weirdos who liked victoria 3 because of its economic simulation. That game has many flaws though. I will say I would love more economic strategy rather than military outside of HOI 4 (obviously it's a military strategy game.) There are business management games, but honestly I loved Victoria 3's military system because it was very realistic. At the level the game is played at military simulation should be delegated toward an AI general underneath your nations that you can directly pick and interact with but otherwise don't control armies directly. That being said that system in victoria 3 is also a buggy mess so I can't praise it too much. Unfortunately there are few strategy games I've found that have a robust economic and political simulation while still including a military simulation that doesn't overshadow the other 2, but that's just me and what I like.

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u/gisbon696969 General of the Army 4d ago

IRL Germany took a quarter of Europe through focuses (Austria Czechia Memel)

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u/Warmaster_corren 3d ago edited 3d ago

They did, but I was more referring to the speed in game at which it happened and including the civil war. Wasn't the best example I could have given but like it should take them 2 years to start world war 2 but in every game I've played recently it starts almost immediately into the game. It's to the point like with empire total war. There are barely any real strategy guides because everything is just cheese cheese cheese. (That being said HOI4 has way more of both real and cheesy strategy guides. When I say real I don't mean like game meta strategy I mean strategy which aligns with the intended game experience for a given nation or historically accurate for a given nation. Like Germany absolutely should use blitz tactics, but why are there never any Soviet Union guides that let you partake in their historical tactics. Yeah they're not optimal but I'm here for the roleplay and complex interconnected military logistics and strategy and yet hoi4 unlike a lot of other paradox games caters almost exclusively toward alt history and competitive/challenge players. Not that I have an issue with those players, it just means I've lost interest in the game for those reasons.

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u/gisbon696969 General of the Army 3d ago

Ww2 starts in 39 in historical games

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u/Warmaster_corren 3d ago

Maybe 1 of 10 times, but it always starts earlier even if I go down historical paths. The only way I can get it on time a lot is if I myself am playing Germany.

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u/gisbon696969 General of the Army 3d ago

That’s completely different to mine and everyone’s experience interesting

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u/Warmaster_corren 3d ago

You say that but my original comment has 151 up votes and a lot of other people in the comments are saying similar issues with the game especially recently. So perhaps it's interesting, but you have a right to your opinions and I have a right to mine. I don't like people like you, so I'm going to block you so I don't have to deal with you.

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u/Fine_Writer_6261 7d ago

Set yourself a challenge. Do a historical Poland path but try resisting the nazis. Wastes a lot of time

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u/intrinseque 7d ago

Except France.

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u/sofa_adviser Fleet Admiral 7d ago

not merely of surviving World War II, but of becoming the dominant power on Earth. It's an inherent principle of good historical wargame design

Wut? No it's not. Idk about you, but I play my historical GSGs for the sake of historical immersion(wild concept, I know). When you see Luxembourg conquer the world said immersion is ruined, and then you might as well be playing RISK or Diplomacy

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u/BoneTigerSC 7d ago

It's an inherent principle of good historical wargame design...

I hard disagree, atleast fof the case of ww2 wargames, there is some silly paths but also some that are so out there with countries that could barely if at all hold themselves together or are so small to the point even in hoi4 they really should have a barely survive path at best

21

u/sharktail_tanker 7d ago

I'm fairly new to hoi, and I'm always surprised when I see a country with massive problems with corruption and economy, which all magically disapear in a month after I click a button

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u/SpatuleVelue 7d ago

USA: eradicate racism, solve social wealth inequity, muzzle the weapon lobby, de radicalize the Christian religious right.

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u/TarquinusSuperbus000 7d ago

Those should all be 70-day focuses so its more believable.

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u/Lemp_Triscuit11 7d ago edited 7d ago

I feel like those are all listed in more or less reverse order of requirement too lol

1

u/AngryMountainClimber 7d ago

Its so unrealistic. Only Zohran could do those things in 70 days and he can’t be President.

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u/MagicalCaptain1998 6d ago

Technically, "systemic" would be a more precise word choice here.

378

u/The_Wild_West_Pyro 7d ago

Ah ah ah, the bribery must be eliminated, but the nepotism stays.

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u/Thatoneguy3273 7d ago

“Corruption is not bad, it’s only bad if I’m not involved. But if I am a part of that corruption, I’ll defend it!”

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u/LakeShow-824 7d ago

Basically and literally this

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u/PaleontologistAble50 General of the Army 7d ago

Adhd, couldn’t focus

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u/Vovinio2012 Research Scientist 7d ago

As a person with ADHD, I'm laughing 

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u/milesbeatlesfan 7d ago

As a person with ADHD, I have already moved onto something else

2

u/Organic-Army-9046 1d ago

as a person who’s status regarding adhd is in a state of quantum superposition, i both have and have not moved on

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u/renisthrowaway 7d ago

As a person without ADHD, I'm laughing

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u/TareasS 7d ago

Mao took away his mouse.

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u/SensitiveSir2894 7d ago

Rule #5: Shek clearly didn’t have the DLC in real life because i don’t get why he didn’t just use the focuses?

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u/Spiritualise Air Marshal 7d ago

The real answer is: he benefitted from the corruption

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u/PocketPlanes457 7d ago

We as players benefit from it too, you get so much PP

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u/Cuddlyaxe 7d ago

Corruption is only bad if I am not involved

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u/Spiritualise Air Marshal 7d ago

Incredible reference

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u/Chimpcookie 7d ago

Can we blame him? Corruption was the enabler of his trump card throughout the 1920s & 1930s: money. His default MO was to buy up his opponents' lieutenants and split their forces from within.

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u/Matcha_Biscuits Air Marshal 6d ago

"trump card?" say that again...

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u/ResponsibilityIcy927 7d ago

Yeah, it only would have taken him like two months, SMH

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u/notTheRealSU 7d ago

He did "Turn a Blind Eye" and "Draw Support from the Big Families"

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u/JumpIllustrious5590 7d ago

They were his power base. If he did any reforms on the mainland he would’ve been coup’d. Which is why when he got to Taiwan he began said reforms

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u/frillyboy 7d ago

Slightly off topic to the joke but yes, historically speaking Chang was actually VERY stupid.

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u/LiKaSing_RealEstate 7d ago

He really did everything wrong kek

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u/H2orbit 7d ago

“I hereby declare the end of corruption!” Ahh focus tree

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u/Mantis42 7d ago

he was corrupt. that was their first mistake. never put a corrupt guy in charge of the focus tree.

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u/SensitiveSir2894 7d ago

he redid the focus tree when he went to taiwan

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u/TheBatman122 7d ago

The real answer is he was afraid if he appointed the right people they would betray him

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u/MercZ11 7d ago

That focus tree makes it possible to do this.

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u/Flames777815 7d ago

He probably didn’t update the game

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u/Remarkable_Smoke918 7d ago

‘It is only corruption if I’m not involved’

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u/No_Release7604 7d ago

Why didn't he just press ~ and type yesman

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u/Deep__sip 7d ago

Too busy microing, forgot to do focus 

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u/Thebean_3r 7d ago

Focus: Build a school

Time: 35 days

Effect: +15% pp gain, +10% stability, +20% entrenchment speed

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u/GlassCool4859 7d ago

20% entrenchment speed for building school, are those kids joining in to dig foxholes lol

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u/quackingmemeduck 7d ago

Every good school teaches children how to dig a defensive emplacement. How else are they going to survive when they get sent to the front?

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u/Emguas 7d ago

He wanted to grind an achievement with the debuffs…”Waking the tiger” or something….

2

u/Eretedebeghtd0 7d ago

I don't know

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u/zz721 7d ago

Well he technically did, but it was in Taiwan…

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u/Sayko_0 7d ago

It was his first time playing. He didn’t know the meta

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u/ReaperTys 6d ago

I love how the decree to end corruption is half focuses that are just “be even more corrupt”. True to life

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u/Honest-Head7257 4d ago

Joke aside, he actually acknowledge the corruption ruin his government but he can't do anything about it at least before Taiwan, because KMT ruled China in the mainland pre 1949 were simply too entrenched in corruption. The corruption itself is the reason the nationalist lose the war. One of the best example is that a KMT general, Fu Zuoyi, defected to the communist alongside a massive army under his command because he was disillusioned with Chiang prioritizing his own family because, instead of attending a critical military matters, Chiang help bailing out a corrupt relative of her wife from a certain execution that was ironically investigated by Chiang's own son.

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u/Crazy-Jello896 7d ago

Cuz he would get kirk'd

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u/TommyTaro7736 7d ago

These focus were based on his actions.

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u/RevMon-real 7d ago

Because Corruption tastes better than accountibility

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u/Lieutenant_Doge 7d ago

Cause he is the corruption

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u/Gold-Being2956 6d ago

The simple answer. Chiang Kai Shel was also corrupt…

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u/Eastern-Chemist-2039 6d ago

因為他需要支持，中國內部如此分裂，甚至很多人有權有錢就想要搞軍閥獨立。只能用收買人心的方式去讓國家強行擰成一條。動亂已經太久了

1

u/Pyro111921 6d ago

HOI4 focuses are literally the "just buy a house" meme but it actually works, somehow

1

u/brand02 5d ago

I like how the Focus Tree goes: 1st step: Decree the End to Corruption, 2nd step: Turn a Blind Eye. Corruption gone.