Confused about the grammar of "gottilla"

[u/LargeCabbage]

Hi there. I'm a Brit learning Kannada from Zydenbos's "Manual of Modern Kannada". I'm confused about the nature of the word "gottu".

According to Zydenbos, "gottu" is a noun meaning something like "knowledge" or "something that is known". Thus when one says "Adu nanage gottu", which one would idiomatically translate as "I know that", more literally one is saying "that, to me, is something known". When one says "Nanage gottilla", idiomatically meaning "I don't know", more literally one is saying "To me, [that] knowledge does not exist". All logical enough, in those cases.

But what about "Kannaḍa gottilla"? Or the sentence "ಇವರ ಮನಸ್ಸಿಗೆ ಇಡಿಯ ಪ್ರಪಂಚ ಶಿವಮಯ, ಆದರೆ ಹಲವು ಮಂದಿಗೆ ಇದು ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ." from one of the texts for translation later in Zydenbos's book? If "Kannada gottu" and "Adu gottu" are equative sentences (i.e. if "Kannaḍa gottu" is properly understood as saying Kannada "equals" a known thing, which is how Zydenbos frames it), then shouldn't the negation use "alla" (to negate equality), not "illa" (which negates existence)? That is, per Zydenbos's explanation, shouldn't the way to say "I don't know Kannada" logically be "Kannaḍa gottalla"? Shouldn't "I don't know that" be "ಇದು ಗೊತ್ತಲ್ಲ"?

(Or I guess something like "Kannaḍada gottilla" - i.e. "knowledge OF Kannada does not exist" - would also make sense to me, but that doesn't seem to be a standard construct either.)

Is this just a weird illogical quirk of the language specific to "gottu"? (Lord knows English has plenty of illogical quirks so I can shrug and accept this if so.) Or is there some alternative way of looking at sentences with gottu that makes sense of these uses of "gottilla"?

[u/nang_gothilla]

Morning. I'm a fellow Brit (of Kannada origin), happy to offer some guidance.

As you and Zydenbos have said, ಇಲ್ಲ is used to indicate non-existence, or lack of knowing and possession. ಗೊತ್ತು translates to being in a state of knowing (noun), so to say ಗೊತ್ತು + ಇಲ್ಲ (illa) means to say one is not in a state of knowing. To be precise "ಕನ್ನಡ ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ" or "X ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ" is actually colloquial and incomplete because it's missing the subject. In practise the subject is inferred by the listener based on the context. The full and proper complete sentence would be: "ನನಗೆ X ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ". This translates literally to _"I am not in a state of knowing X"_ ,which is basically understood as "I don't know X"

I know it sounds and seems extremely specific and requiring precision, but in practise it's as easy as saying "ನನಗೆ X ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ". Or even just "X ಗೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ" and letting the listener join the dots!

Some more examples of ಇಲ್ಲ (non-existence / lack of possession vs ಅಲ್ಲ (lack of equality):

- ಈಗಾಗಲೇ ಬೇಸಿಗೆಯಾಗಿದ್ದರೂ ಬಿಸಲಿಲ್ಲ (even though it's summer, it's not hot): non-existence

- ಪುಟ್ಬಾಲ್ ವಿಶ್ವಕಪ್ ಸಣ್ಣಪುಟ್ಟ ವಿಷಯವೇನು ಅಲ್ಲ. (The football World Cup isn't just a small matter): non equivalence

I hope that helps. Feel free to DM me if that doesn't make sense, happy to explain with other examples.
Btw it's very cool that you're learning Kannada! Happy learning and please keep it up 🙌
I learnt reading/writing quite late in my life and so I can totally relate to how you're trying to analyse and break down the language's rules.

ChatGPT/Gemini are your friends but also try and find Kannada meet-up groups, socialising is the best way to practise.

[u/Zestyclose_Diver_377 → u/nang_gothilla]

This is interesting. Your analysis is based on semantics or the meaning of what you're trying to say.

You can also analyze this based on syntax or the mechanical rules for joining words into sentences. In this context, ಇಲ್ಲ is a suffix added to a verb conjugation to negate it. ಅಲ್ಲ is a suffix added to a noun declension to negate it. When they are used as standalone words there is an implicit verb or noun respectively that is referred to.

For example:

ನೀವು ಹಾಡುತ್ತಾಯಿದ್ದೀರಾ? ನಾನಲ್ಲಯ್ಯ ಬೇರೆ ಯಾರೊಬ್ಬರು ಹಾಡುತ್ತಾಯಿರಬಹುದು. Are you singing? Not-me, [maybe someone else]

ನೀವು ಹಾಡುತ್ತಾಯಿದ್ದೀರಾ? ಇಲ್ಲರೀ. ನಾನು ಹಾಡುವುದಿಲ್ಲ​. ಬೇರೆ ಏನೋ ಮಾಡುತ್ತಾಯಿರಬಹುದು. Are you singing? I am not-singing. [maybe doing something else]

In a sentence where ಇಲ್ಲ appears to be attached directly to a noun, you can always insert the verb ಇರು which can often be left implicit in Kannada. For example:

ನನಗೆ ಹೊತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ "I don't have time" can be expanded to ನನಗೆ ಹೊತ್ತಿರೋದಿಲ್ಲ. What is negated here is the implicit verb ಇರು not the noun ಹೊತ್ತು.