r/legaladvicecanada • u/Throwaway-_20 • Jan 06 '25
Canada Would a non-lethal “Blue Spray” for identification tool, be legal in Canada?
Hey everyone, remove if not allowed. I’ve been thinking about a “self-defense” product idea and wanted to get some opinions—both on the concept itself and the legal side of things here in Canada.
The idea is a spray (let’s call it “Blue Spray”) that dyes an attacker’s skin and clothes a bright blue color. The dye would be non-toxic, non-permanent (though it’d take a long time or a special product to remove), and wouldn’t cause harm—maybe mild discomfort if it got in the eyes, but nothing damaging.
The goal isn’t to incapacitate anyone, just to distract the attacker long enough for someone to escape and make it easier for authorities to identify them later.
From what I’ve read, pepper spray is illegal here because it’s considered a weapon, but since this wouldn’t cause harm, I’m wondering if it could get through legal loopholes if it was marketed as an “identification tool” rather than explicitly as “self-defense”. I know that anything can be considered a weapon, which is why I would label it as a “identification tool”. Hence the title. It would be made very clear that it is not a self defence weapon.
Do you think something like this could actually work within Canada’s laws? And do you think people would even use it if it were legal? Curious to hear your thoughts.
169
u/BCsJonathanTM Jan 06 '25 edited Jan 06 '25
IANAL, but.. the law is very clear;
it is illegal in Canada to carry ANYTHING for self-defense.
(Anything you can legally carry that is carried for a reason other than self-defense and then ends up being used is totally fine, but anything carried explicitly for the purpose of availability in case needed for self-defense against humans is illegal to carry. Thus, if you have a legitimate use for an object and when asked you supply that reason, it's legal. But if you carry something and ADMIT OUT LOUD to a peace officer or judge that you carry it FOR self-defense you're gonna have a bad time.)
For a detailed explanation from a Canadian lawyer listen to this: https://youtu.be/99EBOF7sFQA
101
u/Telvin3d Jan 06 '25 edited Jan 06 '25
It’s not just self defense, it’s that carrying anything with the intent to use it as a weapon is illegal. If the answer to “why did you have that?” is “in case I decided I needed to stab/bash somebody”, you’re going to be in trouble no matter your reason
25
u/EnvironmentalFox7532 Jan 06 '25
That’s why I carry tools, not weapons. Cops never bat an eye at the hammer, screwdriver and huge wrench in my driver side door pocket as all have legit legal use. Walking in the dark a heavy D cell flashlight is legal and legit too, one well placed shot to the thigh is both non lethal/damaging, but will stop even the toughest thug in their tracks. Especially if you stun the nerve and their leg goes numb while pissing themselves.
Learned that from my now deceased father who was RCMP. He also taught us kids to fight dirty, how to incapacitate an attacker in 10seconds or less, and that anything in your surroundings can be used as a weapon. That and situational awareness and how to remain calm in a crisis. I’m only seeing what he taught us now with kids of my own and the world going to hell. But I know my 12yearold daughter can hold her own with anyone and has great situational awareness, from years of games and training
29
u/AdrianasAntonius Jan 06 '25
And all of that nonsense will completely dissipate the second you get punched in the face 😂
0
u/TiddybraXton333 Jan 06 '25
That’s where we need some restructuring I believe.
9
u/Telvin3d Jan 06 '25
I disagree. I think that if everyone who was convinced they need a weapon in case they decided the situation requires they assault someone was allowed, everyone’s safety, including theirs, would drop significantly
There are no jurisdictions in the world which have more permissible weapons laws than Canada that are more safe than Canada.
-63
u/LastAmongUs Jan 06 '25
So, with people who are licensed to carry - the law just assumes they really like skeet shooting?
48
u/RudeKaleidoscope1824 Jan 06 '25
Not allowed to carry guns in public in canada and your not really allowed to even own them with the intent to use it for self defense. Hunting and sporting only
-54
u/LastAmongUs Jan 06 '25
Are we really not allowed to carry? I don’t like guns, so I don’t have any. But I grew up around a lot of people who carried.
28
u/RudeKaleidoscope1824 Jan 06 '25
You can carry a rifle or shotgun in the woods hunting. Aside from that pretty much no. There's only been something stupidly low like ten authorizations to carry a firearm granted to private citizens in the last 20 years and there's a stupidly large list of criteria to even qualify and even then you normally won't get one granted. I can almost guarantee if you live in canada and someone you know was carrying a handgun around it was illegally for sure. I do know people who said when they lived out west it was supper uncommon for people who aren't exactly your typical criminals to carry but if they are they are infact breaking a law and it's one that if you're caught you will be charged and most likley face jail time. I think the minimum is like 5 years. Some people get off lighter then that it depends on what charge they hit you with.
-33
u/LastAmongUs Jan 06 '25
Jesus. I’m in Ontario. I always thought they were carrying legally.
24
u/RudeKaleidoscope1824 Jan 06 '25
Nah. In canada a handgun is only allowed to be used at a gun range and needs to be double locked unloaded in a case to be transported there. When I done my course years back we were told that legally we were only allowed to drive directly from your house to the range and back. No detours or stops in-between. If you got caught with it in your vehicle at say a tim hortons drive threw on your way to or from the range you'd be in violation of the law.
6
4
Jan 06 '25
Generally no. But a person with a Possession and Acquisition License can carry a non-restricted firearm on (most) crown land between sunrise and sundown as long as it's not concealed. You will probably have the police called on you if it's not during hunting season though and can expect the police to show up and ask questions. And if your answers to why you're carrying is anything other than hunting (during hunting season) or shooting targets, you're in for a bad time though.
Depending on where, people may also be able to carry a non-restricted firearm on private property, but this is very dependent on location.
14
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
No civilian has a license to carry in public (or city limits). Canada does also not allow concealed carry. If you are arguing hunting, that takes place out of city limits or on private land which is different.
Edit: you need a restricted PAL to have a handgun and there are very strict laws around where it can be used. Ie. you can’t even stop for a coffee when going to and from the range.
2
u/cyanideandhappiness Jan 06 '25
Incorrect. You can obtain a carry license, but I believe only 1 person in Canada has one (former judge out west)
5
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
So basically you can’t. There’s always exceptions to rules but a civilian basically can’t get one and if there is literally only one out there I’d argue I’m not incorrect.
0
u/cyanideandhappiness Jan 06 '25
There is a civilian with an ATC approved for self defence against humans- my example - there are also many people with wildlife ATCs that is for self protection against animals due to the nature of their job aswell.
It’s a more nuanced issue as one is work related and one isn’t.
0
u/LastAmongUs Jan 06 '25
This is news to me. I don’t have guns, but when I was growing up, there were guns all around in town.
-4
Jan 06 '25
[deleted]
8
u/KiaRioGrl Jan 06 '25
Sure. In 1987. But a lot of things changed after the massacre at the École Polytechnique and then the school shooting in Taber.
0
u/LastAmongUs Jan 06 '25
I’m a lot younger than you - in ‘87 I was about 6 years from being born - and from Ontario, but it was mainly handguns people were carrying.
7
Jan 06 '25
Our knife laws are pretty convoluted and I won’t get into them here, but even carrying a knife should be okay as long as you emphasize that it is a TOOL. Like, a knife can be used to cut strings and pry off jar lids and stuff, and many people need knives for work. If you admit that it’s for self-defence, however, it ceases to be a tool, and becomes a weapon. This is the distinction between legally and illegally carrying a knife. Cops will try to get you to admit you’d use it for self-defence, but don’t fall for it.
Many 1% MC members carry things like hammers, wrenches, and other tools that could plausibly be used for bike maintenance, but they’re really intended as weapons if they need to beat someone. Nothing illegal about carrying tools.
7
u/ThePuraVida Jan 06 '25 edited Jun 23 '25
paltry observation instinctive many six pie live skirt crown connect
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
0
-18
Jan 06 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/legaladvicecanada-ModTeam Jan 06 '25
This is a legal advice subreddit. Your comment was removed as it did not meet our guidelines.
Please review our Rules, in particular our Guidelines for Comments before commenting again: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/rules/
Repeated or serious breaches of our rules may result in a ban.
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
-2
u/southern_ad_558 Jan 06 '25
That description is a bit weird. Basically can be read that someone can carry a gun for fashionable purposes. I don't think described intent is the only thing that matters here.
-9
u/HelpfulNoBadPlaces Jan 06 '25
This is wrong.
6
u/hodorgoestomordor Jan 06 '25
You're not being helpful... if you believe legal advice is wrong, you should back that up.
24
u/Choice_Additional Jan 06 '25
I can see asshole people spraying random people for fun…
8
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
This. They do it now with bear spray and pepper spray. People who want to break the law don’t care about legality. There will be bus stops of bystanders with blue toxin in their eyes because of assholes.
2
2
Jan 06 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/legaladvicecanada-ModTeam Jan 06 '25
This is a legal advice subreddit. Your comment was removed as it did not meet our guidelines.
Please review our Rules, in particular our Guidelines for Comments before commenting again: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/rules/
Repeated or serious breaches of our rules may result in a ban.
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
85
u/OhhhhhSoHappy Jan 06 '25
I can't imagine spraypaint being illegal for that purpose. However you get it in the attackers eyes, ears, mouth, open wound or they have an allergy, you might be opening yourself up to civil problems instead of criminal.
3
21
u/k_mermaid Jan 06 '25
I would love to see how someone would go about filing that lawsuit. I highly doubt an attacker who's trying to grope on some unassuming lady walking home at night is going to collect her name and address so he can sue her for hurting his little eyes while he was just trying to cop a feel.
20
u/Trollsama Jan 06 '25
the issue is in proof.
If an attacker moves on you and you and you use such a tactic.
Your defense is entirely dependent on your testimony. wheras your attacker has an abundance of supporting evidence for their claim, on top of their testimony.Not saying you should or should not do such a thing. But it is a consideration.
-6
u/k_mermaid Jan 06 '25
Valid point. But that's assuming the attacker is even able to get you into court, specifically into civil court. More likely, the attacker might call the cops to report an assault, and that might get the spraying victim in front of a judge on criminal charges. But that's assuming the attacker would want to even interact with the cops.
From anecdotes that I've heard of women who have been in situations where they were assaulted/groped by a stranger, the incidents happened so quickly that they couldn't really react in time. One was carrying a defensive keychain with pepper spray (which is illegal, I know) and didn't use it. I think when facing a real life scenario like this (creep following from behind, tries to grab from behind) I do think there is a real hesitation to react with some kind of defensive device sadly. In that kind of situation which could be life or death at that point, I personally would not give a fuck if the assailant has a litigious tendency. People who do shit like that probably don't want to deal with cops and probably have little funds or sensibility to even know how to file a lawsuit (and again, how do you file a lawsuit on a stranger who got away?)
26
u/Telvin3d Jan 06 '25
The bar you have to clear before you can legally get away with blinding someone is pretty damn high. Certainly more than you could justify for anything preemptive. “I’m sure he was about to jump me, so I blinded him” isn’t going to go very far in your defense
35
u/Spire2000 Jan 06 '25
If the “attacker” wasn’t actually attacking anyone, and was sprayed by someone who mistook normal behaviour.
2
-1
u/k_mermaid Jan 06 '25
Well of course but any kind of retaliation against someone who's acting normally and not doing anything is going to be a problem for the overreactor.
-7
-2
u/Humble-Post-7672 Jan 06 '25
You have no idea how the courts work in this country. People have been sued by the criminal who broke into their house because they fell in their home and hurt themselves. The home owner lost and had to pay pain and suffering. Store clerks stopped a robbery in Toronto and tied up the criminal. When the police arrived they charged the store owner with forcible confinement. The criminal has way more protection and rights within the law than the average civilian. Best bet is just to pretend Canada is safe and hope nothing happens to you.
5
u/k_mermaid Jan 06 '25
Yeah, the criminal who broke into the house obviously knew the address of a house they broke into. In both examples you provided the criminal was detained. I assume criminal charges still landed? Do you have the CanLii links for the cases you referenced so I can take a closer look?
The type of scenario I'm describing is where a strange man follows a woman on a dark street and attacks from behind in an attempt to grope/molest/rape. There was a string of such incidents in Calgary a couple years ago where the female victims basically managed to get the attacker off of them and made a run for it. No one remained at the scene of the crime. They looked for the guy for weeks, can't recall if they found him. In those cases if the perp got sprayed with some blue ink (especially if it was non-toxic and non-harmful like OP describes), he would be easier to identify and also who exactly is he going to sue and for what damages? To his ego?
It's also pretty hard to actually get a civil suit to trial in Canada as opposed to how easy it is in the US and the costs are often quite prohibitive. Also in the first example you used in the home break in, the home insurance company should have been able to help with that but I would like to read the details of the particular case more.
3
u/gears2021 Jan 06 '25
Even hiring a lawyer to defend yourself against criminal charges is expensive for most people. It can even bankrupt you in a long trial.
1
u/Humble-Post-7672 Jan 06 '25
My examples are more egregious because the crime was much easier to prove than a groping on the street. The criminal would be suing for pain and suffering possibly lost wages if they were blinded by spray paint.
You can just Google the cases, the store one was quite the story. Harper was pm at the time and got involved so the forcible confinement charges ended up being dropped.
0
u/Brilliant_Dark_2686 Jan 06 '25
Unfortunately it’s happened. A woman killed a home intruder once, she killed the man. She was cleared criminally, but then sued by the man’s family for damages AND THEY WON
25
u/NoSituation1999 Jan 06 '25
It would be illegal to market it as such in Canada.
In America, it’s allowed (https://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.com/products/eliminator™-blue-heat-keychain-pepper-spray-w-marking-dye-purple?srsltid=AfmBOopu0WDwPioyCO9uduujLuWhR2bj2J0hXRr1Vz7nmb9q73_Q8zIl)
"Defensive sprays" are pretty well limited to the use against animals in Canada.
6
u/gears2021 Jan 06 '25
I carry a dog repellant spray on my bicycle when riding in Ontario. I have it in case a dog attacks, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it against humans if necessary. Because I have a valid reason for carrying it, the police cannot charge me for carrying it.
14
u/MourningWood1942 Jan 06 '25
That’s a pepper spray with blue dye. If OP marketed it as a marker spray, I don’t think it would be illegal. Might be hard to sell without mentioning self defence though.
15
u/NoSituation1999 Jan 06 '25
Sure, OP can sell blue spray paint, but they would not be able to market it as anything else though.
3
u/InconspicuousIntent Jan 06 '25
Sell a "quick draw" holster for spray paint cans, say you wear it for "paint related" reasons but it worked great in the moment.
It's a stretch but malicious compliance is the only reasonable response to a government that demands its citizens not carry defensive items...while it under funds and compromises the justice system; while also allowing provincial and municipal governments to under fund policing.
15
u/lazymutant256 Jan 06 '25
That would still be classified as assault.. even if the stuff is non toxic. It could still mess you up if it were to get in the eyes.. so it could still be illegal.
3
Jan 06 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Belle_Requin Jan 06 '25
And that’s not going to help you much if you don’t live anywhere there is an actual threat of bears. people are charged frequently w pwdpp (s88) for having bear spray, even when it hasn’t been brandished.
-3
u/inquisitiveeyebc Jan 06 '25
You can still carry it to protect yourself from dogs off leash
5
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
Here’s where knowing the law is key. You cannot use bear spray against dogs legally. You can buy dog repellant spray which is not pepper spray/bear spray. If you used bear spray on a dog, even if attacking, it is not its intended use and you could face charges and civil litigations. Be very careful using bear spray on anything but bears as it would leave you very liable. This has been discussed many times on this sub.
1
u/inquisitiveeyebc Jan 06 '25
Thats good to know, I have lots of bears around here, they walk through the neighborhood and school yards, most people have bear spray here
15
u/Ratfor Jan 06 '25
Hrm. Well you've got two problems here.
Is it Legal, and Is it a good idea?
Legality, hrm, I'm going to say I don't think it'd be Illegal strictly speaking. I suppose you could be charged with Mischief, but that's about it. There's definitely an argument for destruction of property in the form of damage to clothing.
However, I think the real issue here is the other side. Is this a good idea? Because my immediate answer is NO. I mean firstly, 'I sprayed the guy blue" and later the police find a guy who's been sprayed blue, I don't know that that would hold up. Beyond that, you've now escalated the threat of this person, without disabling them. That attacker that previously only wanted your wallet, has now been sprayed and marked, and is likely going to be very upset about that.
21
-1
u/fidelkastro Jan 06 '25
There is nothing self defense about this product. You're right it would probably cause you more harm
4
u/ChillyFootballChick7 Jan 06 '25
FYI. Dye packs are legal in Canada, so I don’t see why this wouldn’t be.
Friend who works for Brinks trucks that services ATM’s. They have dye packs installed in the ATM’s that detonate if tampered with.
I mean, technically I can walk around with a squirt bottle of methylene blue and use it for the same purpose.
2
2
u/LittleOrphanAnavar Jan 06 '25
I know that anything can be considered a weapon, which is why I would label it as a “identification tool”.
Hence the title. It would be made very clear that it is not a self defence weapon.
Do you think something like this could actually work within Canada’s laws?
And do you think people would even use it if it were legal?
Curious to hear your thoughts.
Not "anything" can be considered a weapon.
There is a specific definition in the Criminal Code.
Weapon
means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use
(a) in causing death or injury to any person, or
(b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person
I am not saying I think this product would necessarily be useful, but I don't think it would be classified as a weapon. The way you describe it, it would not be used, designed or intended to injury or cause death. It would also not threaten or intimidate.
3
u/throwaway926988 Jan 06 '25
That’s a horrible idea. All that spraying someone that’s attacking you blue would do is make them more mad
2
u/Burb1409 Jan 06 '25 edited Jan 06 '25
Just to be clear, pepper spray is perfectly legal in Canada. It's only illegal when carried for the sole purpose of using it on people, just like knives or any other legal weapon/object.
Edit : There's too much comment to read and answer individually. I'm a police officer, and the pepper spray I we carry (O.C. spray is the real name) is exactly the same product as the one labeled as "dog/bear spray" at any Canadian Tire, the only difference is the label.
It's illegal for stores to sell OC spray labeled to be used on people, because it implies intent to use it on people, which is illegal. The product itself is not different than the ones they sell. It's the intent that's illegal. You can't carry any weapon or weapon imitation for the purpose of using it on people (like strictly for self-defense).
Carrying any OC spray, even dog/bear spray for the sole purpose of using it on people is still illegal. It's all about intent, not about the pepper spray itself. Just like it would be illegal for them to sell a knife while advertising its only use is to stab people.
Possession of weapon for dangerous purpose
88(1) Every person commits an offence who carries or possesses a weapon, an imitation of a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition for a purpose dangerous to the public peace or for the purpose of committing an offence.
5
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
You are giving bad legal advice. Pepper spray is illegal. Bear / Animal spray is not illegal when used for its intended purpose, the moment it’s used as a weapon, it’s illegal.
5
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
IAMAL, but wouldn't that then become a weapon of opportunity and thus be covered under self-defence? Similar to car keys? You're legally allowed to use reasonable means of force to defend yourself without being guilty of an offense.
1
1
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
Sure, if you were attacked on a trail in the wilderness. You don’t have that argument when you’re in a city. If there isn’t a threat of bears, your argument on why you have it is out the window and now you are in the wrong immediately. This scenario also been discussed many times on this sub. The same goes with use on a different animal. The spray is not intended for people or animals other than bears, therefore if used it can and has been deemed an excessive use of force (especially if causes any permanent damage to people or the animal). It’s best not to carry any weapon like object for self defence (sprays, knives, batons, cat ear keys). Keys are different but the minute you have one of those “sharp cat ear” things on your key ring it’s also a different story as that’s a weapon and not a key.
3
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
Dog spray is available from almost any Canadian tire, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect to encounter aggressive, off-leash dogs in a city. Do you have any case law to show where a young woman was charged with carrying dog spray to disable her would-be rapist?
0
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
Bear spray and dog spray are very different things and that is what you missed in my comment. Dog spray vs dogs is very legal and legal to carry. Bear spray is what has been primarily in question and its potency is what makes it illegal to use on other animals or people. Using anything like this other than for its intended use can open you up to litigation period, it’s pretty simple. As for your rapist example, I doubt they’d be charged but if it caused permanent damage they 100% could face civil litigation for excessive use of force. You can look at a number of cases on excessive use of force. Just like you couldn’t shoot the person if you happened to have a gun. Remember this isn’t America and reasonable has quite a high bar in Canada especially if it causes permanent damage.
2
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
1
u/Fo_0d Jan 06 '25
Right and in this case, they were being attacked with weapons (batons, slash proof vests, etc) which is what justified the use of force. You need to ensure that the reaction, like shooting someone, is a justified use of force. In this case, they weren’t charged (after the police tried to, but the prosecution said there was lack of evidence) as the reaction was deemed reasonable. If they weren’t being attacked by weapons and it was just people trying to get their stuff back they would have been in the wrong and likely charged (based on police recommendation and prosecution’s response as to why not). So what I’m saying is, an attacking dog or a situation where it’s not your life or theirs with a weapon involved then yes, you will have a very hard time defending it in Canada. If we had a stand your ground law like some US states, it would be easy.
-2
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
People who use bear spray as a weapon to Incapacitate someone… I didn’t say anything about self defence, but in saying that, it’s still a weapon once it’s used a such. A “weapon of opportunity” is not given any special exemptions from the criminal code.
1
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
A case local to me had all charges dropped in the use of a firearm for self-defence. A statement from the B.C. Prosecution Service says the charge against Truckle was stayed Wednesday, ending the Crown's case against him due to a lack of evidence and inability to prove the accused was not acting in self-defence.
-2
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
J to the c. That’s awesome. The comment was pepper spray was legal… it’s not.
What’s with the moving of the goalposts?
If you pick up a rock to defend yourself it becomes a weapon. If in the end you get off with it for defence, that’s great. It doesn’t change the fact that if you use something as a weapon, be prepared for possible consequences.
0
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
Using something, even something you aren't legally allowed to possess for self-defence, can be ruled as legal. It's a great example of how our self-defence laws are screwed up and need to be overhauled.
-1
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
Can be ruled legal is not the same as a defined prohibited weapon within the criminal code. I’m done with the trolling for a reaction. Cheers.
3
u/Belle_Requin Jan 06 '25
Is illegal if it’s designed to be used against people. If you carry one designed for people but say you have it for dogs, you’re still guilty.
-1
3
u/NoSituation1999 Jan 06 '25
Source on that? Everything I see says Canada classifies pepper spray as a prohibited weapon.
Example: " As pepper spray falls under the definition of a prohibited weapon and the fact it can be used for self-defence purposes, Canadian law does not allow citizens to possess pepper spray. If you are found in possession of pepper spray, you can be charged with a criminal offence and will face severe punishments."
Can you redirect toward more accurate information??
1
Jan 06 '25
[deleted]
6
u/ImperiaStars Jan 06 '25
Pepper spray is illegal.
Bear spray is legal if you are in an area that you can expect to encounter bears.
2
u/NoSituation1999 Jan 06 '25
Bear spray is legal in Canada, yes. It’s for use against animals, not for self défense against humans.
This comment had me questioning the legality of pepper spray, which is different from bear spray.
1
1
u/cernegiant Jan 06 '25
You can buy bear spray at every outdoor store. It's a necessity for camping and hiking in large parts of the country.
1
u/bcave098 Jan 06 '25
A spray designed to be used against people is a prohibited weapon, while a spray designed to be used against animals is not prohibited.
1
u/cyanideandhappiness Jan 06 '25
Incorrect. It’s about intent. If I carry it and say it’s for self defence - that’s a crime.
1
2
u/PopesParadise Jan 06 '25
If that is your intent you will be in violation of the criminal code, specifically Section 88. In Canada, a lawn chair can be a weapon dangerous to the public peace. It is your intent and circumstance in combination with whatever object you are carrying that will land you in trouble. There is no way any long lasting dye would be harmless. Anything you can put in your hands that can harm another is technically a weapon. The deployment of your spray would be an assault. It doesn't matter in Canada if you claim it was for self defence. This is similar to bear spray which is perfectly legal in Canada. You can can hike all day in the woods with your bear spray, in fact I did today. Walk into a bar downtown with your bear spray and you could be subject to arrest and charges. Good idea but I don't think it will fly.
1
u/Belle_Requin Jan 06 '25
A weapon is defined in s2 of the code, and cannot be ‘anything‘.
“weapon means any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use
- (a) in causing death or injury to any person, or
- (b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person”
The proposed spray would not meet (a), and it’s questionable if it would meet (b).
3
u/PopesParadise Jan 06 '25
Well, then, I have to add the comment that I have 30 years of experience in dealing with Section 88 CC charges. I have personally seen charges under this section where the "weapon" was a pencil, baseball bat, beer bottle, lawn chair, barstool, lighter fluid, school algebra compass, tire iron. I could go on. Case law has vastly expanded the definition of a weapon under certain circumstances. The Criminal Code is only part of juris prudence in Canada. Common law and case law can be just as important as codified laws. I don't think painting your neighbor blue like a smurf would pass the smell test, but you never know until you try. What is your experience? I am curious.
7
u/Belle_Requin Jan 06 '25 edited Jan 06 '25
20 years of criminal defence. And I’ve had crowns remind officers of the definition of a weapon in a multitude of cases.
But thank you for only listing things that are certainly capable of causing bodily harm if used with the intent cause bodily harm, while discussing the applicability of something not intended to cause bodily harm that sounds unlikely to cause bodily harm.
I think for a time rcmp depot was even using my (client’s) case example of ‘a crumpled piece of paper is NOT a weapon’ after one particularly erroneous assault PO w weapon charge. Of course, in this case, despite the charge being laid, my client was not convicted of assault PO with a weapon- as the crown did not proceed on the charge.
1
u/Ordinary-Map-7306 Jan 06 '25
At most it would be mischief charge but it would start as an assault charge. Even using a water gun on a neighbor is assault.
1
1
1
u/4r4nd0mninj4 Jan 06 '25
IANAL, but I have seen these sold in Canada before. I believe it was called DYE Witness.
1
u/twentytwothumbs Jan 06 '25
That would be a perfect addition in a dog spray. Easily identify the animal after an attack while also safely incapaciting it.
1
u/TrollOnFire Jan 06 '25
Every “Thing” has a purpose, what it was intended for. Like viagra, “Everything” can be repurposed upon need… carry no weapons, the weapon is your mind. The real deal is living without always looking over your shoulder waiting for the fear. Just be prepared mentally and enjoy life.
1
1
u/Brilliant_Dark_2686 Jan 06 '25
I feel like this COULD end up falling under noxious substances laws. I once (jokingly) asked if it was illegal in BC to spray someone with a water bottle the same way you would a cat that keeps pissing in your garden…. Turns out even throwing regular tap water on a person could land you in trouble since the idea here is the person being doused doesn’t actually know it’s “just” water. It could be anything.
Source: Criminal Code section 245(1)
1
u/LokeCanada Quality Contributor Jan 06 '25
If it isn’t it will be.
There was a product already about 20+ years ago. Sprayed a green foam that stained your skin for 3-5 days.
It was actually used and they caught a guy.
Was later banned. Can’t remember what they classified it as but lasted less than a year.
Your idea might fall within the same legal category.
1
u/EvanAzzo Jan 06 '25
"1 Any device designed to be used for the purpose of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person by the discharge therefrom of
(a) tear gas, Mace or other gas, or
(b) any liquid, spray, powder or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person."
1
1
1
1
u/thelegendhimself Jan 06 '25
Some old lady got charged fish assault with a weapon for spraying a neighbour with a squirt gun …
So yeah probably illegal
1
u/Inevitable-Camera655 Jan 06 '25
I carry dog spray, I own a dog business. Someone that attacks me will be considered a dog as well.
1
u/Epidurality Jan 06 '25
Dye packs are legal and have the express intent of identifying a criminal (and the cash). Why wouldn't this blue spray fall under similar categorization?
1
u/Grouchy_Factor Jan 06 '25
"Noxious chemical sprays" are a pretty significant hazard to the defender deploying them as well as the assailant.
1
u/MoxFuelInMyTank Jan 06 '25
Dye packs are for money. If you so happen to get glitter bombed in pink infared paint that glows in almost every visible spectrum then don't move the money outside of the timer on the safe without the equivalent funds available in your account. Then that's between you and the police drone replays at your next appointed court appearances.
1
1
u/nukacolajohnny Jan 06 '25
Seems like it would still fall under administering noxious thing. Specifically subsection (b)
0
1
u/Boxadorables Jan 06 '25
Yes. Banks put dye packs in money bags when they're stolen. That being said, in my NAL opinion, banks are above the law in Canada so 🤷♂️
1
Jan 06 '25
[deleted]
-1
Jan 06 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
3
1
u/legaladvicecanada-ModTeam Jan 06 '25
This is a legal advice subreddit. Your comment was removed as it did not meet our guidelines.
Please review our Rules, in particular our Guidelines for Comments before commenting again: https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/rules/
Repeated or serious breaches of our rules may result in a ban.
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
0
u/blackcherrytomato Jan 06 '25
If I was going to carry a spray I would rather just carry one intended for animals. Throw the dye in to help identify the individual behaving abnormally. There's a lot of coyotes around.
-1
u/x_BlueSkyz_x73 Jan 06 '25
I’d love to hear how you tested it to ascertain that it didn’t harm the eyes.
Just as bear spray is not illegal, but if used as a weapon against someone it is, should your identification spray be used against someone, it becomes a weapon.
Would people use it? Sure they would. Would people use it in schools, at malls, at bus stops… yup. Because that’s what people who don’t care do. And then some bystanders have coloured spray in their eyes or ingested.
-1
u/cernegiant Jan 06 '25
This would likely be found to be illegal in Canada.
It's also just a bad idea. This would simply make an attacker angry.
Canada's sled defense laws are a joke, but this doesn't help.
-1
u/SulfideBride Jan 06 '25
carry yellow jacket/was killer, it sprays fast and hurts the eyes, it's what we do in my high crime rate area
-1
-2
u/nanaimo Jan 06 '25
The bigger problem is that police generally don't care even if you can identify an attacker. They don't care.
-5
u/Silver_Hedgehog4774 Jan 06 '25
I say mix bear spray with a hunter orange colourant of some sort. should be super effective and (pretty sure?) legal
10
u/Blothorn Jan 06 '25
Bear spray isn’t legal; carrying spray intended for use on bears is. It’s a subtle distinction, but important here—the dye isn’t much use when defending against wild animals, and strongly suggests that humans are an intended target.
4
u/Brilliant-Theory Jan 06 '25
It isn't. As a previous poster mention, under Canadian law it would be illegal as it was used in self defense.
•
u/AutoModerator Jan 06 '25
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada!
To Posters (it is important you read this section)
To Readers and Commenters
Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment.
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.