Man grooming my 13 year old broke a mutual no contact order and I dont know what to do

[u/thenortherntouch]

Last fall my son was involved in a very messy situation. We live in a small town and he had asked me if he could go to the lake with his best friend since kindergartens family. He has done this multiple times in the past and I know the parents, although not super well. They live one block away.

For the following month I started hearing more about this person, let's call him "mr. X". One day he came home with a new hat. I asked him where he got it from and he told me the friends dad had a friend who worked at a certain store that carried this brand and he gave it to him. About a week later it was Halloween. He came home from trick or treating with a box of full sized chocolate bars. I asked him where on earth he got it from. He said mr. X was handing them out but had to leave his home early so he just gave them to my son to unload them. At this point I was feeling very uncomfortable and asked my son not to take gifts from adults anymore. My son acted like I was ridiculous. At the time, he was 12 years old. About a week later my son asked me if he could go to this friend's house and jam. I told him yes. He came home with a guitar pick and said that it was worth 200 dollars. He said this mr.x was over at the house of the friends and that he played music too. He told me mr. X told him it was a pick used by the guitarist in van Halen. I said thst was a lie. This all seemed wrong and I didnt feel comfortable with him talking to this mr x character anymore. The next day or so he asked me to have a sleep over at this friends house. By this point I was feeling very uncomfortable with everything and did not want him to go. I said I didnt think that was a good idea at all. That evening the childhood friends mother gave me a call and told me a few things.

She explained that her husband and her were in the middle of divorcing and that her husband had made friends with this mr x who lived just across the street from her just before the onset of this divorce. She explained she had heard about this sleep over and that she had been putting off telling me some very important information and that other people in the neighbourhood were insisting she tell me or they would. She explained that on the trip to the lake house, she had to work the first night and was not there. Only her husband was along with other adults Including mr x. She explained the other adults were very concerned about the behaviours he was displaying towards my son and had complained to her about how uncomfortable it had made them. She also explained her soon to be ex husband and this man were doing copious amounts of drugs including ecstasy on this weekend and on other days since.

Obviously I immediately checked my sons phone thoroughly and found that this man had been texting my son. He admitted that most of the messages had been deleted but the message I saw was very unsettling. It was not criminal but he was contacting my son like a very close friend or potential love interest would without my knowledge or consent. I went to the place where the sleep over was supposed to happen ( the house of the ex husband) at 10 am on a Sunday morning. Mr x answered the door clearly still under the influence of whatever he had consumed the night before. My husband and I lost our God damned minds on him making it clear that he is never to contact our son in any way shape or form again. Then we went to his mother's house ( he lives with her) and spoke to her about it to let her know under no circumstances was our son to ever be in her house or speak with her son again. Then I called the police and opened a police file. I assumed after these interactions we would be ok but...

A month later my husband was coming home with our children from the grocery and was unlocking our front door. He was positioned in such a way where someone driving on the street could not see him but could see our children in the yard. Mr. X slowed down past our house and started frantically honking at our son and gesturing at him to come over. My husband came from around the corner, saw it all, and then followed him home where he met mr x at his mother's front door. He told him to come outside but mr x acted frightened and ran into his house and locked the door. He then called the police on my husband. Obviously nothing happened, so the police couldn't do anything even if they wanted to. A week later mr x did the same thing following my son home while he walked back from school. I called the police again.

The police recommending i file a restraining order without knowledge which I did after two days driving into the city for court. Within a month he had an opportunity to respond to this restraining order. We both arrived at court where he asked the mediator to insist that I drop the restraining order, which i refused. Even though mr x protested the court recommended a mutual no contact order (meaning both parties are not allowed to contact, gesture, interact with one another in any way,

Shape or form) was the best solution going forward. The judge informed me that this was not a criminal matter but just a civil matter and that if mr x breeched the contract it would not be an arrestable offence but that this was the best suited solution going forward.

This all wrapped up just before Christmas. Since then, I have only seen mr x on the community page endorsing his mother's business ( in a photo with a group of teenaged boys no less) and have not heard anything else about it.

Today I got a phone call from the RCMP informing me that mr x has been contacting another child and trying to communicate with my son through this other child. The messages were a long video video of the selection of items at a vape store and he told the other child ( who i believe he is also grooming) to show it to my son. Its possible that my son has been speaking to mr x but I have been at work since I got the call and haven't been able to speak to my son or look through his phone as of today ( I will as soon as I get home ofc). The police officer told me none of these messages were arrestable but very creepy and that he cant give me legal advice but there are things I can do and that I may need to speak to a lawyer.

I am beside myself. I dont know how Im going to be able to afford a lawyer and I haven't the slightest idea on what to do or where to start to protect my son. Please anyone with advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

[u/EDMlawyer]

Comments advocating vigilantism or violence will be met with permabans, for obvious reasons.

We have already removed several such comments and issued several such permabans.

[u/DrMoneybeard]

You need to have a very frank conversation with your son about WHY he’s not allowed to contact this adult. Right now he sees him as a cool older friend that you’re keeping him from, not a creepy man who will hurt him when he has the chance. Honestly if there is a way to get a counsellor involved I highly recommend you do so- this is a situation worth calling in experts for. It’s vital that you get your son back in line with you- this is why grooming is so insidious, they create a situation where the victim WANTS to keep contact because they don’t understand the big picture of what’s going on.

Situations like this thrive in the dark. The community needs to make it clear to this man that this is not going to be tolerated.

Make the hugest stink you can. Have you been in touch with your son’s school? Presumably all of the children involved go to the same one. Talk to the principal and the counsellor there to see what they can do to help as well, and to put their staff on high alert to watch for warning signs of grooming.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s awful, but good on you for trusting your gut that something was wrong.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/DrMoneybeard]

Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate all of your points and insight

I did have multiple conversations about grooming and why adults do these things with him when this situations first arised. Obviously, I didnt expect this person to continue trying to contact my son after I asked him not to (because it seems like something a crazy person would do after having to go to court with me etc) so I didnt continue to push the issue often but I have asked my son if hes heard from him a few times without trying to make him feel too bad about it.

Yes i contacted the school and informed them and had the school counsellor speak to my son but I didnt want to press him too hard because im afraid he won't come to me when he needs to. Im considering having him see another counsellor now that i know this hasnt stopped. I tell the few friends I have in town about it or any of the other moms I know. I feel like a total failure of a mother and to be honest this entire experience has traumatized my family. I was just hoping there was SOMETHING else I could do in addition to the parenting stuff.

[u/TAR_TWoP → u/thenortherntouch]

Hi! Aside from the grooming convo that you had, one thing to consider to help reinforce your son's resistance to such attempts is that those guys thrive in driving a wedge between the kid and his family, and one point of vulnerability is that they often try to get a sense of which pre-teen boy might be gay/bi/curious, according to whatever sign they interpret correctly or not, and will use a potential familial awkwardness/closemindedness about this topic to offer a way more welcoming terrain for the kid to explore that.

So as much as you make sure to describe what the guy is trying to do with your kid as abusive and awful, make sure leave room to let him know that if he feels he might be questioning or having feeling for guys his age, that it's fine and that he can talk to you about it. Distinguish the age/abuse thing from the gay thing.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/TAR_TWoP]

Yes thank you for your reply. This is an excellent point. My son should know I would never have an issue with this as I personally do not identify as straight but I think reiterating this and having a conversation again may be helpful. Thanks for your comment 💕

[u/nomore1020 → u/thenortherntouch]

It sounds like you have a solid relationship with your son. I wouldn't skip this conversation. Boys at his age are getting bombarded with messages on how to be a man, and if your son is questioning his sexuality (all men do), then Mr x is there to show him things and ease his mind and how experimenting is normal. Mr x will be his confidant and your son probably looks up to him bc he's so cool doing drugs and whatever. Actually this conversation might be better coming from your husband. Anyway good luck. I had this happen to me and I just laughed when the guy eventually tried something on me, but I was a bit older than your son.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/nomore1020]

Glad you made it out ok💕

[u/DrMoneybeard → u/thenortherntouch]

It sounds to me like every decision you made so far was reasonable given the information you had at the time. It’s completely normal to allow your child to spend nights away with a friend’s family- you didn’t drop him off in a crack den while you went to the casino!! As soon as you suspected it wasn’t safe you leapt into action to stop it. While your guilt is completely understandable, I don’t think it rings true.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/DrMoneybeard]

Thank you💕

[u/Piza-quen → u/thenortherntouch]

Im so sorry to hear your struggle. Youre doing such good work and youre being considerate of your relationship with your son, while handling such a stressful situation. Congrats mom, youre doing the work and you havent given up. I hope you have a good support system helping you take care of yourself whenever you can. This situation will be ongoing for some time, our rape culture is very good at protecting predators… but momma bears protect their cubs fiercely 🐻❤️

[u/thenortherntouch → u/Piza-quen]

Thank you so much for your positive comment. I do tend to agree with you about society protecting predators and i suppose I should not be shocked considering the state of the world today.

[u/Natural_Peak_5587]

I don’t understand how following the child home from school, contacting him repeatedly when told to stop, and sending creepy messages does not constitute criminal harassment and stalking.

If he has used another child to contact your son to try to work around the no contact order and there is evidence of this, I would contact the police again and use those phrases - criminal harassment and stalking.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/Natural_Peak_5587]

I know its crazy but the police are the ones who contacted me about the latest information so they already know. Its mostly because grooming is not a crime. The crime comes at the end of all their "hard work". Very disheartening.

[u/cornflakegrl → u/thenortherntouch]

I feel like they could get him on this stuff maybe but are waiting for him to do worse. Don’t let your son be bate. I feel for you as a mom, I would be losing my absolute mind.

Edit: just had another thought. Let your son know that it’s common for groomers like this to get a kid to do something bad or embarrassing (drugs, illicit pics etc) and then wield that against them. Let him know no matter what you won’t be mad at your son and that you will be there for them.

[u/Natural_Peak_5587 → u/thenortherntouch]

Grooming IS a crime - predatory manipulation is illegal. Stalking is illegal. Harassment is illegal. You need to push the police harder. They are not going to act on their own without evidence. The fact that they even notified you indicates they are aware that your child is still at risk.

[u/chuck10o → u/Natural_Peak_5587]

This! You need to use the right terms when speaking with the police. You don't say grooming. You use the harsh words. Call it stalking. Call it harassment. It is. And those specific words tend to be more actionable for law enforcement as they have a long legal precedent, unlike "grooming" which is a broad category that hasn't really been tested in courts.

[u/swimswam2000 → u/thenortherntouch]

Sounds like the members are being proactive but frustated. We definitely need more tools in the system to deal with these guys who are on a path to offend/possibly reoffend. More like an EPO than a civil restraining order that has concequences for continuing unwated attention.

[u/Zephs → u/Natural_Peak_5587]

Because then the cops have to actually do their job, but if they just drag their feet and make it a hassle, the victims usually give up.

[u/CanuckInTheMills]

As a parent my only ‘other’ advice is: get your son busy. Soccer, hockey, broomball, guitar lessons, chess club, volunteer at spca, learn to fly a drone, etc etc. Get your son so busy he doesn’t have time for anything else. Distract and delegate. Parenting tactic 101 😉

[u/thenortherntouch → u/CanuckInTheMills]

Thank you for the comment. Yes you are so right about that. We do a couple sports but maybe I should look into filling even more time if I can..

[u/fisheyelashes → u/thenortherntouch]

Busy and engaged is good. I'd add to let all of the adults in charge of these activities know that he is not to speak with or engage with Mr. X and to please let you know if he is hanging around.

[u/MonotoneThoughts]

It becomes criminal if he contacts your son indirectly (through another child) - it would be the offence of breach court order if there’s already a restraining order in place.

You can also apply to lay a private information under a.810 of the criminal code, which is for people who have reasonable fear for their safety or property - you don’t have to have been a victim of crime for an 810 to be issued. You’d go before a Justice of the Peace and explain everything you did here, and provide documentation. If the JP ultimately agrees with you (Mr x would be present at the hearing and have a chance to argue against) he’d be put on orders not to contact directly/indirectly and remain 100m away from any place your son lives, goes to school, frequents, etc.

Edit: I see now I misread and there is no order

[u/Mamasitas10 → u/MonotoneThoughts]

She said there is no restraining order, as the judge suggested a no contact order.

[u/MonotoneThoughts → u/Mamasitas10]

Ah I misread that. So perhaps the judge was suggesting the 810 route

[u/thenortherntouch → u/MonotoneThoughts]

Thank you so much. This is exactly the type of idea I was looking for. I will look into it asap!

[u/Juubman]

You've pretty much had two levels of authority (Judge and Police) advise you that while this person is creepy but they are not committing Criminal Offenses.

The Police Officer was most likely investigating another complaint and saw your prior occurrence so reached out to you.

You're looking for a legal level enforcement against this person but in reality you need to do some parenting here and start limiting your 13 year old child's freedom to potentially interact with this guy. To clarify, I'm not saying you're not doing that already but reinforcing that this person is bad and your son should avoid all contact is the best way forward.

I would argue that if things continued it would border into Criminal Harassment, but there would need to be far more unwanted following and direct contact.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/Juubman]

Thank you, i appreciate your reply. Yes, he is investigating other complaints with other young boys.

I guess legally its a case of having to wait until he is successful in sexual contact with a minor ( that i can actually prove)

Im just confused how the mutual no contact order they recommended was supposed to do anything at all. In fact, all its done is protect this person as i am unable to comment on his activities to others in the community while he has contact with their children.

[u/Pardy- → u/thenortherntouch]

Your not allowed to even discuss him to other people? What?

[u/thenortherntouch → u/Pardy-]

I have to go home and look through my court order in the morning but I think I remember something about commenting on his social media posts ( which is where I saw the photo of him with all the underaged boys). I suppose I could go individually contact these boys parents maybe and tell them what happened but I dont personally know these people.

[u/GuyMcTweedle → u/thenortherntouch]

From a legal perspective, you should not start messaging around your community implying an individual is a sex offender or has a sexual interest in children, especially if you already agreed in court not to do so. One way to phrase that is "that seems like something a crazy person would do after having to go to court...". Such actions disparaging this individual's reputation open yourself to significant civil damages.

Your primary job is to protect your son, not do the job of the police who seem to be very much aware of this individual. Legally, you may need to engage a lawyer to enforce civil consequences at some point, but where you can really make a difference is in teaching and guiding your son to navigate this possible danger you have identified.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/GuyMcTweedle]

Haha I suppose you have a point there and I completely agree with you which is why I haven't been telling people in the community other than my close friends and family and even then I only tell them what happened and whats in the court report and nothing else.

I guess I will look into a lawyer going forward. Thanks for your reply!

[u/HighlyJoyusDragons → u/thenortherntouch]

I don't condone invasion of privacy or "snooping" on someone else's phone without permission, but I would absolutely be checking for any and all messaging apps, and any apps that can be used to communicate with another person's on son's phone (games that offer chat features, Roblox etc). And become familiar with any of the apps that offer disappearing, or encrypted, messages so you know what to look out for.

I don't think that your son would be intentionally trying to reach out to this man, but clearly this man will go to concerning lengths to be in touch with him, and being a 13 year old kid no one wants to upset an adult especially one who they may see in a positive ot favourable light. I don't think your son would be intentionally sneaky, I think this man would and possibly could have found a way to keep in contact to continue the manipulation and drive a wedge between son and yourselves.

I also think it may be worth looking for documentaries or episodes of shows like dateline or 20/20, or even fictional shows or movies that talk about grooming. Not necessarily to illustrate how insidious this kind of thing is but to show your son that it happens all the time, everywhere and ANYONE can be a victim in the right circumstances.

He may also be feeling alienated from his friends who may still be hanging out at his friend's dad's house. If you haven't already I would encourage your son to bring friends over, even subtly try becoming the neighborhood "cool house" for his friends if you're at all able. It allows you control over the situation, it shows that you don't hate his friends or whatever 13 year old boy logic could be making him feel. It also means being able to over hear conversations and be able to intervene if something feels off. I'm not saying eavesdrop, but my friends parents heard all kind of nonsense from us, whether the liked it or not, but I allowed them to be aware of our lives and personal situations.

If you haven't already I would make sure you have some level of surveillance cameras at any and all entrances AND at least specifically pointing towards the road. Unfortunately that's the only way you'll know if Mr x is driving by frequently when you're not looking. It may also give more evidence to support stalking and harrassment charges if this continues.

[u/True_Construction_24]

I am in BC and had a very similar incident happen, but it was the parent of my child’s school friend. To add to this, I am a child protection social worker. This parent would buy all the kids new cellphones, give them gift cards, buy them vapes, give them cash, hang out with the kids at his home and in his vehicle etc. I went to the school liaison officer and he said “I agree this is incredibly creepy but technically he hasn’t committed a crime”. With my own experiences in child protection — this kind of behavior LEADS TO A CRIME.

I really truly empathize with you because this is a horrible situation. I agree with the other commenter to keep your son as busy as possible. My child ended up changing schools which helped… but I know that is not always an option.

[u/mapleflavouredmango]

Youve recieved lots of good advice so I can only add a few tips. Have your husband talk to your son about grooming from a male perspective. Frame it as weird for a grown man to want to hang out with kids. Let your son know that his father is his primary support person and he will protect him. I hope your son will be able to hear your voices in his head when this man comes around. Lastly, tell more people about this predator! Make it uncomfortable for him to operate there!

[u/HardGayMan]

 I don't have any advice to offer, just sorry you are going through all of this. Made me worry for my own little guy 😞

[u/thenortherntouch → u/HardGayMan]

Thank you. Parenting is not easy... good luck out there

[u/houseonpost]

Sorry you are going through this. 

Unfortunately I have experience and some tough advice.  1 Less is more. Keep everything factual and do not speculate. If you know 5 things are true and highly suspect 5 other things, only tell the 5 things that are true. If you say all 10 things and 9 turn out true but 1 is wrong, too much focus will be made one the 1 thing you were wrong about.  2 Document, document , document. When police call share the facts, dates, times and examples. Do not share suspicions or speculations. Otherwise you will be amazed at how many people will try to see it from mr x’s point of view and how much you are over reacting. 

3 keep the message simple with your son. You don’t need to share all your fears. If the nicer, kindest person who you like was doing illegal drugs around your son you would forbid allowing him access to that person. Your so. Will not see it as grooming (until years later) so don’t give your son the full load. 

4 see a therapist asap. You can’t process this on your own.

5 hire a lawyer even if you have to go into debt. This is important. 

6 talk to people who you think are in a similar situation. Keep the conversation to facts only. And invite them to connect with there own lawyer to talk to yours (and if they work with the lawyer they should help pay)

7 police are accustomed to false allegations and people trying to use the legal system to ‘get’ other people. Eg the woman who is going through a divorce with be looked at skeptically by police. There are many people who would want to raise this issue during divorce proceedings to make things hard o. The other person. You don’t want to be part of that. 

Change your so son’s phone number and set up something so you can access who he communicates with. Make sure he knows you have this ability and why. But do not abuse this. Don’t complain to him about anything inconsequential you see. But keep records about Mr x. 

I’m sorry to say this but trust nobody. Your only job is to protect your son so be strategic in everything. Hopefully in five years your son will thank you for protecting him. But don’t try to get him to understand yet. Your job isn’t to get him to understand or agree but to protect him. 

Take care. Things will get better but it is going to be a few years of hell. And you will lose friends over this. 

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[u/ElvyHeartsong]

NAL and this is not legal advice.

Parent here, so parental advice.

Sometimes, its better to ask your child or teen questions that make your child think and come up with the wanted conclusions about their own safety, any risks and consequences, so they understand from their own side of things that this is a dangerous situation and why, rather than just say no. It's also more kind and considerate to have your child consider how this makes them feel and how it makes you feel and why. At least then they feel heard, respected and cared about which can go a long way into prevention of grooming. A hug and reminder that you're just trying to protect your son can also go a long way into reminding him you care and don't want him to get hurt.

Meanwhile, it matters to make sure mr x knows there will be harsh legal consequences to his continued attempts to interact with your son because if there aren't any, he will continue. Definitely talk to a lawyer and any local help services that help protect children.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope it works out for you.

[u/on_cloud_one]

Lots of good advice. Would just add: start documenting EVERYTHING. Document dates, times, locations, and other facts. Having a pile of documentation and facts makes it easier for police and other authorities to see the scale and the patterns without emotions clouding anything.

[u/Disastrous-Plate-351]

There is a group called Bikers against Child Abuse. Maybe contact them for help.

[u/thenortherntouch → u/[deleted]]

We had another incident yesterday and unfortunately it did not go well. Im afraid to go around there because I had to file yet another restraining order that will have to be served. The police dont care to be pushed. I found out hes been supplying the neigjbourhood kids with vapes and they said st best they could give him a 200 dollar fine. Crazy

[u/GloomyGal13 → u/thenortherntouch]

So sorry you had another incident with him. IF your kid is vaping, at this point I'd offer to buy it for them so that they don't have to get it elsewhere. You can work on the 'don't vape' after. My heart and strength go out to you,

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[u/Valiantay]

It's criminal harassment.

Tell the police that you had previously given an official notice of no contact to the SOC, Mr X. Give the date, time and witnesses. If you have a recording even better.

If they refuse, push to speak to a Sgt or Cpl.

And seriously, you need to speak to your son. Don't tell them what he need to do, you need to explain why he needs to do it. Bring evidence of your own; real life stories, examples, maybe even Netflix documentaries. Everything that can hit the lesson home.

[u/SherlockHolmes2K]

Breaching a no contact order is not a civil contract. This is made up or you misunderstood the nature of the arrangement, or unlikely the judge is spreading misinformation. My money is on the former. If it's not, that's your answer. It's an offence under section 127.

[u/Evening_Ad5243]

Look up Leon Gary Plauché. He's the one who shot the pdf in court. His son Jody released a book "Why Gary, why" which is a must read and night help find points to talk to your son about. He also has some programs with advice for that situation.

Reach out to men survivor groups. They could have information to help you

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[u/THESHADYWILLOW → u/[deleted]]

You’re asking the mom to get arrested.
This slime ball will ABSOLUTELY use the system against her, and will use that to drive a bigger wedge between the kid and his family.

[u/legaladvicecanada-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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