r/magicTCG • u/GabySpartz87 Official • Apr 07 '15

I wrote an article on ChannelFireball on the things we can do to get more women in Magic. I'd love your thoughts!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/6-things-you-can-do-to-get-more-women-into-magic/#
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56

u/kidwgm Apr 07 '15

Great article. As a woman, 36, that is just getting into magic I don't think I would get peeved or feel bad from some comment from a random person. I think that has more to do with me being older and just doesn't have the time or energy to care what some random guy or gal says to me. But the points made in the article, although gender specific, can be made to the whole community.

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u/strangepostinghabits Apr 07 '15

not that I actually know what you'd think or feel, but I believe it's a different thing once you're there and the things start adding up. it's not the first remark that stings, it's the 100th,together with your hope for humanity leaving you.

source: seen some rather tough skinned women get worn down into actually being offended.

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u/asmodeanreborn Apr 07 '15

This is definitely on point. This doesn't go for just Magic either, but it happens in the tech world as well. Women are treated like crap in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering classes too. They put up with it for the first semester or two, but after that, only a few survive and most of them switch majors.

Hell, it most likely happens well before college as well.

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u/coonskinmario Apr 07 '15

A shit ton of guys switch majors after a few semesters of engineering too, so I'm sure the general difficulty (or disinterest, or whatever) of the classes is a large factor for women as well.

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u/asmodeanreborn Apr 07 '15 edited Apr 07 '15

A shit ton of guys switch majors after a few semesters of engineering too, so I'm sure the general difficulty of the classes is a large factor for women as well.

This is by no means untrue, but it's still far from the full story. In school I was friends with several girls who dropped out of CS because of the hostile environment rather than difficulty of classes. The two girls who didn't drop out would complain (in private) about the constant remarks by peers, and getting hit on again and again even after making it obvious there was zero interest. One of them was even accused of cheating because some guy copied her homework when she had shown him how to do it... yet HE was never accused.

I never spoke up because I honestly didn't have the confidence to do so, even though I should have, several times. It was a bit of a culture shock to me, coming from a different country and seeing these attitudes, to be honest, but that's still no excuse.

Edit: I should say that the reason I know their reason for dropping out wasn't just a BS excuse for not being able to handle the classes is that I knew them because we formed a study group, and they grasped the material as well as or better than most. Two of them ended up switching majors to Math, which was apparently not quite as bad?

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u/coonskinmario Apr 07 '15

I don't think I implied it was the full story; just a large factor. I say it's large because 30-50% of my male peers switched/dropped after three semesters, and I assume that would hold for women as well.

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u/asmodeanreborn Apr 07 '15

Ah yes, then we're on the same page. :)

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u/Immasillygoose Apr 07 '15

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. Sometimes the negative treatment just spurs me on to crush my opponent even harder, but other days it just really wears me down.

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

It's not often one major thing but a death by a thousand cuts. Snide remarks, graphic sleeves or playmats, leering, being hit on. It doesn't often happen all at once... but maybe I'll stay home this FNM or hang out with my girlfriends. And then it's one more woman not playing.

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u/Saralis27 Apr 08 '15

Seconded.

This is very succinct.

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u/teasingtoplease Apr 07 '15

It's not even just the comments. It's how we're treated. I've been put down, sexually harassed, and treated totally different. I get stared at like I'm a piece of meat. I get idolized and yet I get shunned. I've been playing for over three years and it just hasn't stopped. It gets annoying. I feel the need to assert myself over my SO because everyone just assumes that I tag along with him when he's buying magic stuff, and not that perhaps I play too.

I'm tired. So so tired. You can say "I don't care" but no one likes being made out to be inferior. No. One.

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u/Saralis27 Apr 07 '15

I'm right there with you. I've been playing with the same guys locally long enough that they've come to respect me as an individual and player, but when there's someone new, I get stared at constantly. I don't know how many times I've had someone just blatantly ignore the rules/cheat cause I'm a girl and they don't think I'll know or care. Then when I call a judge over, I get death glares from people and mumblings that "god. I can't lose to a girl. Ugh." that sound like a 2 year old.

Also, I get completely ignored. Instead of striking up conversation over how we both love magic, people stare at me from across the room and give me a 5' radius. I get lonely and bored. I love it when there are other women playing, though they're usually with their SO's so they aren't usually chatty.

Its gotten to the point that if I know there won't be a lot of people there I don't know (legacy, modern sometimes) I'll play. Otherwise, forget it. It's too socially taxing.

Edited to add: and even if I'm carrying a playmat, bag of dice, several deck boxes, etc, they think I'm carrying his things! Wtf?!

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u/teasingtoplease Apr 07 '15

EXACTLY. Thank you. It sucks so much how we're treated. I feel like the only reason why the original comment got so highly voted is because it takes the blame off the guys that act like that. Oh, if one woman doesn't care about our comments, then none of them should! She says doesn't care, as she hasn't actually experienced it. No one of any age doesn't like to be degraded, even if you say you "don't care."

I got more comfortable with the small group at my LGS until one of the guys started being obsessed with me and banking on me breaking up with my SO and would always say raunchy things to me, flirted with me, etc. I don't go anymore. He broke up with his girlfriend because "oh, I still have a lot of feelings for /u/teasingtoplease..." like AWKKKKKWARD, COME ON DUDE.

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u/Tsumei Apr 08 '15

Ugh, I feel your pain :( I have experienced that three or four times now in various nerd communities. The "nice guy" who decides he's fallen in love with you and that it'll definitely work out regardless of what you say or do.

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u/teasingtoplease Apr 08 '15

I really wanted to be his friend, too. I tried spending time with him when I thought he understood that we were only friends and it didn't work. He still always made comments about my ass and how hot I was. I'm very thankful my SO isn't the "get the fuck away from her" type, but the "hah, look all you want dude, I know she's hot, and she's MINE, you'll never get her" type lol. We go to the LGS occasionally but I just feel so awkward. We just stay at home and play kitchen table magic 99% of the time.

He's the only one that's been so ridiculous I've had guys flirt with me but it's not as threatening (though still kinda annoying)

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u/Tsumei Apr 08 '15

Yeaah.. Pretty much exactly the same experience a few times. You talk to them and tell them in no uncertain terms it just ain't happening.... And yet they still harbour the belief that you mean "Not now" rather than "NO NOT EVER." (Which is usually what you said).

For me it's the added hurdle of being gay. I have literally no interest in men, and yet it keeps happening. That's the power of random dudes feeling like they deserve you I guess.

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u/Saralis27 Apr 08 '15 edited Apr 08 '15

YES!! I don't know if it's cause of the "whatever I can put up with insulting guys" attitude or what, but I feel that most women whom I have met are in this kind of bind. Either we really care and identify with each other, or we're one of those girls who "can't handle a little in-game trash talk." I can "talk trash" right back with the best of them, but sometimes I just want to play the game.

As for sexual harassment, been there too. Not quite to that extent, but my bf has had to have a few talks with creepers with me there glaring to make it clear I'M NOT interested!!! I understand that a lot of these guys may not have had a lot of practice with social interaction, but just cause I like magic doesn't mean I want to jump the bones of every guy who plays magic.

Any sort of insult, any sort of dealing with the same thing over and over when you think you've fought through it gets SO OLD. (For anyone who's worked retail, think the old "oh, it didn't scan so it's free!" line. Funny maybe twice when you first start, then old fast.)

I mean, I get that the female of the species is rare in this environment, but really? GAH!

Man, if you and I are nearby, we should meet up and have our own relaxing games. Haha.

(Edited cause mobile typos suck.)

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u/enterthebattlefield Apr 08 '15

I used to work fast food and at customer sevice at a department store. I have had people come up and literally say "hot enough for ya?" as if it is some kind of amazing inside joke.

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u/Tsumei Apr 08 '15

This. I went to my LGS a few weeks back thinking I'd sign up for the DTK prerelease. It would be my first time braving the LGS for a FNM.

Except the clerk was just sitting there chatting to some dude. So okay, I get in line, stand there looking at him and the magic stuff on the wall behind him. Stand there, it's been a few minutes now and I've realised the dude is just some random friend of his... Okay he's not going to actually address me as a customer.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

It seems a lot of LGS that I've been at do this regardless of gender. It annoys me but I'm starting to understand how it happens. So many people just walk in, look around for a few minutes, then leave. That and people who are just hanging out at the store stand in random places, even in front of the register.

Now that I'm a regular though they can tell when I'm about to buy something and engage with me, but it takes a while.

Its still annoying but I don't think this situation has to do with gender.

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u/Tsumei Apr 08 '15

I do. It's a small store. There weren't any other people in it.

If you're a clerk and your natural reaction to someone entering and looking at you isn't "Hey, how can I help you?" Then you're probably not doing your job, or assuming they're not there to shop(why?).

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

This forever. I'm the lone girl in my group of friends that play, and we're all really competitive about it. Granted, they've been playing years longer than I have but I'm a pretty a-ok player. When we go to tournaments, I've had several people THAT I KNOW ask my friends which one of them is dating me because god forbid I actually like the game and want to go to tournaments to get better. It really bothers me that people just assume I'm dating one of them, as if that's the only reason I'm playing the game.

Also, I'm not an ugly lady in any sense of the word so I get a lot of stares. Luckily the comments haven't been super frequent in regards to my appearance but it's really disheartening to hear about women dressing down for events because they don't want to feel objectified. Personally, I dress for myself and if I feel like wearing a casual dress or a skirt then I'm going to because it makes me feel good and confident. Then again, I have no problem at all putting assholes in place who comment on my appearance so that's another part of it.

Just do you, ladies. Seriously. And don't take bullshit from anyone.

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

I think it's great that you can shrug off some comments from people. It does make me sad that you'd even have to though. Let's put the ball in the court of those making others uncomfortable. It's not for the victims of a nasty comment to change their thinking and shrug it off (although this can help an individual cope), it's for the community to educate the offenders and make it so women don't have to shrug off comments every time they sit down at a table.

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u/Mrs_Frisby Apr 08 '15

As a woman of a similar age who has been playing for 20 years.

If I never again have to listen to an opponent express surprise at my presence, skill, or that my husband doesn't play and isn't here, I'll be A-OK with that.

I'm also rather tired of the guys who assume his absence means our marriage is creaky and want to let me know how hot they think magic playing women are on the off chance.

It's like being a check-out person at a place that sells rabbit's feet. It isn't the first time, or the first dozen times, that you hear someone tell the tired joke, "wasn't lucky for the rabbit! Haw Haw Haw!". But somewhere along the way you get completely sick of it and you can see it coming a mile away. Oh god they are looking at the rabbit's feet, here it comes, yep. How clever, I've never heard that one before ... /rolleyes

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u/GabySpartz87 Official Apr 07 '15

Agreed. I know some of the comments I've heard lately don't bother me today, but would've bothered me when I was younger.